The struggle to replace the Bible

Masihi

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Any muslim interpretation of the Bible is based on his/her knowledge of the quran and info gathered from his/her imam. However, the Bible does not lend any validity to the quran because it never mentions the quran, and so the muslim interpretation is flawed from the outset. Furthermore, the quran would not exist if the Bible did not exist. (Islam is essentially another denomination with the Christian religion, with a doctrine far skewed from the norm). Its proponents claim the quran essentially replaces the Bible but use a circular method of proving its validity using the book it claims to replace; hehehehe. With that said, before anyone should ever consider replacing the Bible with the quran, one should take a look at the quran's deficiencies: 1) the fairytales taken from Jewish works and incorporated into quran (proof of plagiarism), 2) missing sura as reported by Abu Harb Abu al-Aswad, 3) countless of missing ayat (verses), 4) the couple of hundred contradictions within quran, 5) the 2000+ textual variants, 6) the claim of abrogation (changing text at will and without notice), and others.
Im all ears if a quran-believer wishes to tackle any of the 6 deficiencies. To be clear, references to the Bible have no place in defense of the quran and they are not allowed in this thread.

I will start with #4, a contradiction within the quran.
 

smaneck

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Any muslim interpretation of the Bible is based on his/her knowledge of the quran and info gathered from his/her imam.

Not necessarily. There are some Muslims who obtain academic credentials in the study of the Bible or other religious scripture.

However, the Bible does not lend any validity to the quran because it never mentions the quran, and so the muslim interpretation is flawed from the outset.

That's not necessarily their purpose in studying it.

Furthermore, the quran would not exist if the Bible did not exist.

Again, not necessarily, especially given the fact that the Qur'an seems to have significant access to oral traditions.

(Islam is essentially another denomination with the Christian religion, with a doctrine far skewed from the norm).

Only if you consider Christianity a sect of Judaism.

Its proponents claim the quran essentially replaces the Bible but use a circular method of proving its validity using the book it claims to replace
;

Some might say it replaces it, others would say it has the same relationship to the Bible as the New Testament has to the Old.

hehehehe. With that said, before anyone should ever consider replacing the Bible with the quran, one should take a look at the quran's deficiencies: 1) the fairytales taken from Jewish works and incorporated into quran (proof of plagiarism)

psst. An illiterate man cannot plagiarize.

2) missing sura as reported by Abu Harb Abu al-Aswad,

Why would we take an oral source over a written one?

3) countless of missing ayat (verses),

Again, the only sources for this would be less reliable than the Qur'an. I'm speaking here from an academic perspective, not a religious one.

4) the couple of hundred contradictions within quran

LOL. If I had the time I could come up with more than that for the Bible. But most of the contradictions Christians come up with are simply based on ignorance.

5) the 2000+ textual variants

And how many textual variants do you think there are in the Bible? Here is a list of just the major ones in the New Testament:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major_textual_variants_in_the_New_Testament

6) the claim of abrogation (changing text at will and without notice), and others.

Funny, I don't remember any reference to 'at will and without notice.' This really doesn't refer to changing a text in any case. It refers to the changing nature of religious laws such as the fact that Jews and Christians can drink wine, but Muslims (and Baha'is) can't.

To be clear, references to the Bible have no place in defense of the quran and they are not allowed in this thread.

I'm not sure you can stipulate that kind of thing. But it is a convenient way of ignoring the fact that the same problems appear in the Bible as in the Qur'an. For instance here are a couple of cases where exactly the same problem of the number of angels appears in the Gospels:

MAT 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
MAT 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
MAT 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
MAT 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.

MAR 16:5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.

LUK 24:4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:

JOH 20:12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.

Whatever method you use to explain these contradictions in the Bible, apply to the Qur'an. I guarantee it will work just fine.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Only if you consider Christianity a sect of Judaism.

More than just a sect. A denomination. As though Christianity is just another "denomination" of Judaism akin to Orthodox, Reformed, or Conservative.

I would certainly call that silly.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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LoAmmi

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More than just a sect. A denomination. As though Christianity is just another "denomination" of Judaism akin to Orthodox, Reformed, or Conservative.

I would certainly call that silly.

-CryptoLutheran

It'd be branch and no you aren't part of our club. ;)
 
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ViaCrucis

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Seeing no one tackled the 6 deficiencies at this point with any academia, and the rule of referencing the bible was broken, I have nothing to respond to.

From now on anytime I create a thread I'm going to stipulate that you only agree with what I say.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Masihi

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Its a sure bet the quran cannot stand on its own without using the Bible for a crutch. Thus the title: The struggle to replace the Bible. Let the quran stand on its own ... what is the problem with that?
.
Answer this: why would muhammad even bring this forward as a hypothetical question, "if I go astray..."?
1) posing the question means he could by choice go astray
2) using the rule of right acts and salats, covering for wrongs, he could have chosen to go astray a few times AND chose to remain on his path a greater number of times to cover for his wrongs; that means millions of muslims currently go astray in those acts in which he chose to go astray in.
3) all humans including muhamad are vulnerable to error; his posing this question means he more than likely went astray. That means millions of muslims are going astray in that act in which he went astray in.
 
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smaneck

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Its a sure bet the quran cannot stand on its own without using the Bible for a crutch. Thus the title: The struggle to replace the Bible. Let the quran stand on its own ... what is the problem with that?

Is it too much to ask that you use the same standard in judging the Qur'an that you use on the Bible/
.
Answer this: why would muhammad even bring this forward as a hypothetical question, "if I go astray..."?
1) posing the question means he could by choice go astray
2) using the rule of right acts and salats, covering for wrongs, he could have chosen to go astray a few times AND chose to remain on his path a greater number of times to cover for his wrongs; that means millions of muslims currently go astray in those acts in which he chose to go astray in.
3) all humans including muhamad are vulnerable to error; his posing this question means he more than likely went astray.

No, it means you are completely misunderstanding that ayah.
 
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Zstar

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Any muslim interpretation of the Bible is based on his/her knowledge of the quran and info gathered from his/her imam. However, the Bible does not lend any validity to the quran because it never mentions the quran, and so the muslim interpretation is flawed from the outset. Furthermore, the quran would not exist if the Bible did not exist. (Islam is essentially another denomination with the Christian religion, with a doctrine far skewed from the norm). Its proponents claim the quran essentially replaces the Bible but use a circular method of proving its validity using the book it claims to replace; hehehehe. With that said, before anyone should ever consider replacing the Bible with the quran, one should take a look at the quran's deficiencies: 1) the fairytales taken from Jewish works and incorporated into quran (proof of plagiarism), 2) missing sura as reported by Abu Harb Abu al-Aswad, 3) countless of missing ayat (verses), 4) the couple of hundred contradictions within quran, 5) the 2000+ textual variants, 6) the claim of abrogation (changing text at will and without notice), and others.
Im all ears if a quran-believer wishes to tackle any of the 6 deficiencies. To be clear, references to the Bible have no place in defense of the quran and they are not allowed in this thread.

I will start with #4, a contradiction within the quran.
I'm Christian not Muslim so others must address your inquiry.

The topic caught my attention because I too question the Bible.

Wonder about the Muslim perspectives?
 
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Cearbhall

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To be clear, references to the Bible have no place in defense of the quran
Why? A Muslim would say that Muhammad was a prophet who furthered humanity's knowledge of God's will. Just as Christians point to the Old Testament and claim that it foreshadows the New Testament (and is fulfilled by the New Testament) despite preceding it historically, so can a Muslim point to the Bible and say that it supports later revelations found in the Quran.
 
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smaneck

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I'm Christian not Muslim so others must address your inquiry.

The topic caught my attention because I too question the Bible.

Wonder about the Muslim perspectives?

Most Muslims believe that the Bible has been corrupted based on verses like this from the Qur'an:

"Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it… Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gainthey make thereby." (Quran 2:75,79)

I am of the personal opinion that by perverting the Word of God is meant changing its meaning. Someone just did that with a verse from James' epistle on another thread in this forum. I think selling it for a miserable price refers to practice of selling amulets with verses of scripture inside. Baha'u'llah says the following about the notion that Christians don't have the true gospel:

"Verily by “perverting” the text is not meant that which these foolish and abject souls have fancied, even as some maintain that Jewish and Christian divines have effaced from the Book such verses as extol and magnify the countenance of Muḥammad, and instead thereof have inserted the contrary. How utterly vain and false are these words! Can a man who believeth in a book, and deemeth it to be inspired by God, mutilate it? Moreover, the Pentateuch had been spread over the surface of the earth, and was not confined to Mecca and Medina, so that they could privily corrupt and pervert its text. Nay, rather, by corruption of the text is meant that in which all Muslim divines are engaged today, that is the interpretation of God’s holy Book in accordance with their idle imaginings and vain desires. And as the Jews, in the time of Muḥammad, interpreted those verses of the Pentateuch, that referred to His Manifestation, after their own fancy, and refused to be satisfied with His holy utterance, the charge of “perverting” the text was therefore pronounced against them. Likewise, it is clear, how in this day, the people of the Qur’án have perverted the text of God’s holy Book, concerning the signs of the expected Manifestation, and interpreted it according to their inclination and desires."

He goes on to say:

"We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation? What law could be their stay and guide? . . . Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension!"

Mind you, this is not to say that Baha'is believe in biblical inerrancy. What it does mean is that we believe the basic elements of Jesus message has been preserved.
 
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Masihi

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Why? A Muslim would say that Muhammad was a prophet who furthered humanity's knowledge of God's will. Just as Christians point to the Old Testament and claim that it foreshadows the New Testament (and is fulfilled by the New Testament) despite preceding it historically, so can a Muslim point to the Bible and say that it supports later revelations found in the Quran.
I don't wish to get into this at any great length. Briefly, Islam's position is that both torah (old testament)/ injeel (new testament) are not in our possession, at least not the original scriptures because they maintain they were written by the hand of god while the manuscripts in our possession now (Bible) were written by men. Most muslims are forbidden from even touching a Bible. Therefore, I am not alone in disallowing defense of the quran by referencing the Bible.
islam essentially makes my case for me... that is, that the quran is not Biblically based.
I dont understand why muslims insist on referencing the Bible in their arguments and apologies. Its absurd.
 
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smaneck

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Most muslims are forbidden from even touching a Bible.

Evidence?

I dont understand why muslims insist on referencing the Bible in their arguments and apologies. Its absurd.

Apparently no one told them they weren't supposed to touch it. You must not be their mufti.
 
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Masihi

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Even though the quran commands people to demonstrate kindness towards their parents and brothers, it also says muslims are not to love their parents and brothers if the latter do not choose islam.
Is that a contradiction in terms and is such a thing even humanly possible?
 
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smaneck

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Even though the quran commands people to demonstrate kindness towards their parents and brothers, it also says muslims are not to love their parents and brothers if the latter do not choose islam.
Is that a contradiction in terms and is such a thing even humanly possible?

Nothing in the quotes you posted said don't love your parents, however Jesus said the following:

26 “If any man come to Me and hate not his father and mother, and wife and children, and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. (Luke 14)

I'll leave it to you to reconcile this with the Commandment to honor your father and mother. After you are done, apply the same method to the Qur'anic verses. Once again, it will work just fine.
 
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Masihi

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Even though the quran commands people to demonstrate kindness towards their parents and brothers, it also says muslims are not to love their parents and brothers if the latter do not choose islam.
Is that a contradiction in terms and is such a thing even humanly possible?
 
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smaneck

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Well, if you want to be redundant:

Nothing in the quotes you posted said don't love your parents, however Jesus said the following:

26 “If any man come to Me and hate not his father and mother, and wife and children, and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. (Luke 14)

I'll leave it to you to reconcile this with the Commandment to honor your father and mother. After you are done, apply the same method to the Qur'anic verses. Once again, it will work just fine.
 
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smaneck

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I find your reply egregious and of no value.

Uh, uh. And that's why you repeated your question in hopes of burying my answer.

If you continue using the Bible for a reference in defense of quran, you're are essentially telling us that the quran cannot stand on its own.

No, I'm saying you should apply the same standards for studying the Qur'an as you do for studying the Bible. And by not being willing to do that you are essentially admitting that the same problems apply.
 
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Aryeh Jay

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Luke 9:59-62

He said to another man, "Follow me." But he replied, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father."

Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God."

Still another said, "I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say goodbye to my family."

Jesus replied, "No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God."
 
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LoAmmi

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Luke 9:59-62

He said to another man, "Follow me." But he replied, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father."

Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God."

Still another said, "I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say goodbye to my family."

Jesus replied, "No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God."

It is interesting when you compare it to the Torah which forbid a newly married man from even serving in the military in time of war.
 
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