Why is it that Job's friends get condemned and Job gets a free pass? The three friends only had to offer up seven bulls and seven rams to be accepted by God, while Job had to offer up everything he had.
Job's friends get undeserved condemnation.
- Thread starter thankfulttt
- Start date
Nathan A
Newbie
- Jul 25, 2012
- 16
- 5
- Faith
- Protestant
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Republican
When reading the conversations between Job and his friends we need to be aware that the friends are Godly men but they have a preconception about the way God works which didn't match reality. In their worldview, blessings where a sign of God's favor while curses where a sign of God's disfavor. The problem was that Job's friends couldn't see past this view of God and so assumed that Job was hiding some great sin. In their minds because he had experienced great misfortune he must have done something terrible that he needed to confess and repent of.
The reality was that Job hadn't done anything wrong for which he was being punished, quite the opposite. Tremendous misfortune came upon him because Job was so faithful and Satan wanted to demonstrate that if all the blessing was taken away then Job would cease to serve God. So it wasn't for sin that Job suffered, but for outstanding righteousness. This didn't fit Job's friends worldview, and so they failed to allow their knowledge that Job was an upstanding and righteous man to inform their advice to him.
They weren't condemned for their error, they were simply mistaken and gave Job bad advice because of it.
The reality was that Job hadn't done anything wrong for which he was being punished, quite the opposite. Tremendous misfortune came upon him because Job was so faithful and Satan wanted to demonstrate that if all the blessing was taken away then Job would cease to serve God. So it wasn't for sin that Job suffered, but for outstanding righteousness. This didn't fit Job's friends worldview, and so they failed to allow their knowledge that Job was an upstanding and righteous man to inform their advice to him.
They weren't condemned for their error, they were simply mistaken and gave Job bad advice because of it.
Upvote
0
How do you answer what God said to Job. Job 40:8 -----"Will you condemn me that you may be righteous?"
Upvote
0
Hi,
Job did not know what was going on when it happened. He only knew what was going on after he saw God. And it was only then that he recanted. He recanted possibly because, by seeing God, he knew what happened in heaven. One indication of that is that he wrote about what happened in heaven, and his speech beforehand was anything but understanding what was going on.
Notice, on the friends, God said only two of those friends spoke incorrectly about God.
Job did not have to give up everything. God allowed Satan to take away everything but not kill him. Notice his wife was not hurt nor killed ever. Note he lost all of his children property and then later health.
Job was all about God putting Satan in his place. God did not have to do this. He just called him on his words. When the sons of God came up to God, Satan was with them. (notice, Satan is not a son of God, he is with them. He is not one of them.) When Satan, who Jesus tells us to treat always as a liar, is asked what he was doing he replies with an answer, we are to say or suspect is a total lie. "I've been patrolling the earth"
God is now all set to put Satan in his place and tell us all something. He is going to tell us that what He, God knows is always more accurate than what Satan says.
"Have you seen my man Job? There is not a more rightious person on earth.." Satan responds with, "that is because you give him lots of gifts.... If you take away all he has, he will curse you.", Or something like that.
God then calls Satan on his words. In effect God says: 'Oh yeah, prove it. Take away all he has but do not kill him. You think you know ,more than I do about him. Go for it!' Satan does that. Job is still rightious. He does not curse God and Satan killed his family and took away all of his possessions. God was right. He knew more than Satan. It is not over though.
Again the sons of God, possibly adopted, possible Jesus and in a way his brother to God called the sent one, the Holy Spirt, or something else, those sons of God are in heaven talking to God and again Satan is with them. Remember, he is not one of them. He is with them.
The conversation starts again. God really gives it to him. "Have you seen Job? There is not a more rightious person. He does everything with care, trying hard never to upset my by insults. You have taken away all he has. Still he has not cursed Me. " God is making the point to him. 'I Know More Than You Do. Job Will Not Curse Me. I Know This. And you were proven wrong.' Satan responds. That is because he is healthy. Take away his health and will curse you. In other words Satan is saying that he Satan knows more than God, Satan is saying he right about Job and God is wrong.
God calls Satan a second time on his words. He essentially says: "Okay prove your words. Take away his health but do not kill him." Satan does. Job just like God said He would do, did not curse God.
We learned a lot from this. Satan has limits put upon him by God, which he wll not cross. The concept of oneness that Jesus brought up is demonstrated here. Jobs wife was not killed. All of his children were. His wife was not. The concept of infused knowledge by Seeing God is demonstrated here, like in Pauls case, where seeing he learned much. When Job saw he recanted, his accusation to God, as he knew then what happened in heaven, with Satan being put in his place by God, once again. Job then knew, that the greater good was why he was allowed to suffer. It was to tell everyone later, of the limits put on Satan, life after deaths as experienced by Jobs having everything doubled on earth, except his children. He had the same amount on earth as he had before. That suggests to us, that his children were actually doubled like everything else, for what God put him through, for the rest of us, as the children in heaven or whereever, and the children now on earth, were twice as many as before.
Job was only wrong about pain and suffering cannot be for a good purpose. Jesus's was. We also learned about pain and suffering for God is rewarded much by God. Jesus was rewarded. Everything Job had was doubled, and now the God he only followed in faith, He now had seen Him in person.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Mary greetings,
In Job 42:7 God is speaking to Eliphaz and his two friends, and that makes three. God never calls Job righteous, but rather he likens him to a good Pharisee, much like Paul was before he met Christ. In Job 41:4 God asks Job if he is going to make a covenant with Satan and take him for a servant forever.
Job says he is unforgiven in Job 7:21. In Job 9:2 he says he doesn't know how to be just before God. In the New Testament we find that forgiveness and being made righteous are necessary for salvation. In Job 9:23 Job calls God unrighteous by making the statement that God would laugh at the trial of the innocent. In Job 40:8 God chastises Job for the previous statement by saying, "--Will you condemn me that you may be righteous?" The spirit in Job 4:17 says the same thing as God said here in Job 40:8. The spirit said, "Shall mortal man be more just than God?" In Job 35:2 Elihu asks Job if it is just for Job to declare himself more righteous than God.
It is as if we are reading two different books.
May God bless you,
Upvote
0
Nathan A
Newbie
- Jul 25, 2012
- 16
- 5
- Faith
- Protestant
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Republican
Even after Job loses his wealth, his status, his children, and his health he remains faithful to God and without a blemish on his character until his friends arrive and begin pressing him to confess his sin. Job can't take his faithfullness being questioned. At first he maintains he is righteous and that no one can bring an accusation against him, but as the conversation carries on Job becomes frustrated and slips into self-righteousness:
Job 23:3-7 (ESV)
Oh, that I knew where I might find him,
that I might come even to his seat!
I would lay my case before him
and fill my mouth with arguments.
I would know what he would answer me
and understand what he would say to me.
Would he contend with me in the greatness of his power?
No; he would pay attention to me.
There an upright man could argue with him,
and I would be acquitted forever by my judge.
In short, Job states that he wishes to lay his case before God and make God explain to his friends that he is innocent of wickedness and wrongdoing. In his final statement Job even goes so far as to say:
Job 31:5-6 (ESV)
“If I have walked with falsehood
and my foot has hastened to deceit;
(Let me be weighed in a just balance,
and let God know my integrity!)"
Essentially protesting his integrity and uprightness to God Himself, as if perhaps God had forgotten what an excellent servant he was. While Job's friends believe he must have committed a great sin for these things to happen to him, Job begins to wonder if God has forgotten that he is a good and faithful servant.
This is why God says what He does in Job 40:8; in defending his own rightness, Job starts to call God's into question.
Upvote
0
What I have given is the big picture. What you say is important to me. The conversation just got deep. I will check now to see if I made any errors, as when I wrote to you, my information is from a set of understandings that is years old, and errors do come in some of the time.
However, before I start examining each one of my points, I am going to look at your original statement a little deeper now.
It was:
Why is it that Job's friends get condemned and Job gets a free pass? The three friends only had to offer up seven bulls and seven rams to be accepted by God, while Job had to offer up everything he had.
Hmm? Two of Job's friends, God said did not speak rightly about God. Those two friends did the bulk of the talking.
One of Job's friends waited and waited and waited. Finally he told Job that he was looking wrongly about God, and that he should consider both the good and the bad to come from God. That is, if I recall that correctly.
For me, when God said Job's two friends did not speak rightly about Him, I have always determined not to use anything of what they said, as actually being true. I did that, because God said they were in error.
It seems to me, the seven bulls and seven rams were only for the two friends of God, to be forgiven for not speaking rightly about God. It seems to me, the third friend had no sacrifice demanded of him, thus implying he was not at fault.
Being forgiven, for speaking wrongly about God, is not being accepted by God. Rather it is a mercy for Job.
It is a mercy as Job seems to like these two guys. God therefore is going to let him keep those two friends of his. The seven bulls and the seven rams, allows God to allow them to be forgiven, thus Job, who is about to be rewareded soon, is not going to have more suffering before he is given his reward by God.
Also. Job was already accepted by God, before God told us and the whole world through Job, some really nice things. He talked of Job to Satan. He talked of him twice. He used Job. God used Job. God used Jesus. Either of those two could have refused God. Job did not know he was being used. God knew him so well, that he knew how he would respond, [also telling us some really cool things about God and us, in how well He actually knows us], and thus He used Job to make a point with Satan.
Job offered up nothing. He was used. He was rewarded. He just did what Job does. Job did himself. He offered nothing up to God here, for this occasion, for this set of incidents to put Satan in his place, once again. He was just being himself.
I will now take a longer look at your original observations, into my possible inaccuracies.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .
However, before I start examining each one of my points, I am going to look at your original statement a little deeper now.
It was:
Why is it that Job's friends get condemned and Job gets a free pass? The three friends only had to offer up seven bulls and seven rams to be accepted by God, while Job had to offer up everything he had.
Hmm? Two of Job's friends, God said did not speak rightly about God. Those two friends did the bulk of the talking.
One of Job's friends waited and waited and waited. Finally he told Job that he was looking wrongly about God, and that he should consider both the good and the bad to come from God. That is, if I recall that correctly.
For me, when God said Job's two friends did not speak rightly about Him, I have always determined not to use anything of what they said, as actually being true. I did that, because God said they were in error.
It seems to me, the seven bulls and seven rams were only for the two friends of God, to be forgiven for not speaking rightly about God. It seems to me, the third friend had no sacrifice demanded of him, thus implying he was not at fault.
Being forgiven, for speaking wrongly about God, is not being accepted by God. Rather it is a mercy for Job.
It is a mercy as Job seems to like these two guys. God therefore is going to let him keep those two friends of his. The seven bulls and the seven rams, allows God to allow them to be forgiven, thus Job, who is about to be rewareded soon, is not going to have more suffering before he is given his reward by God.
Also. Job was already accepted by God, before God told us and the whole world through Job, some really nice things. He talked of Job to Satan. He talked of him twice. He used Job. God used Job. God used Jesus. Either of those two could have refused God. Job did not know he was being used. God knew him so well, that he knew how he would respond, [also telling us some really cool things about God and us, in how well He actually knows us], and thus He used Job to make a point with Satan.
Job offered up nothing. He was used. He was rewarded. He just did what Job does. Job did himself. He offered nothing up to God here, for this occasion, for this set of incidents to put Satan in his place, once again. He was just being himself.
I will now take a longer look at your original observations, into my possible inaccuracies.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .
Upvote
0
Nathan I hope you will not become annoyed with me because of my perspective on Job. It was not the three friends that started the conversation between them it was Job that started it. The first thing Job did when he opened his mouth was to curse his day(Job 3:1). He went on to curse the stars and then his mother's womb. In Job 3:19 Job says he desires to be free from his master. The three friends are listening to Job and cannot believe their ears. In their eyes Job has become a hypocrite. When trials befell others Job came to them and told them to trust God. But now that it has befallen Job he curses.
Isaiah 45:9-10 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
In relation to the above verses in Isaiah it should be noted that Job in 2:8 he sat down to scrape himself with a potsherd. In Deuteronomy 6:28 we see that the clay vessel has to be broken because it had contained sin. Clay vessel carrying sin become potsherds.
It should be noted that Job's friend Eliphaz in his first speech paraphrases the first two beatitudes found in Matt 5, and verse 5:13 is quoted by Paul as being written as scripture.
Who knows you better than your closest friends.
Upvote
0
Mary I believe that you are mistaking Elihu as a friend of Job's. He was not Job's friend, but rather his mediator between Job and God. The three friends were Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar.
God did not condemn the three friends for what they said, but rather what they didn't say. They did not know how to tell Job to be just before God. It would be the same thing if you met someone who did not know God, and you failed to witness to them. If you were unsaved you wouldn't be able to tell them, and that was the condition of the three friends, but shame on them for not knowing.
Upvote
0
Here is a partial reply. You have made a total of 11 to thirteen points.
Point 2.) God never calls Job Rightious.
Reply: 2.1 Job 1:1 Blameless and upright feared God and shunned evil
2.2 Job 1:8 God says of him, blameless and upright, fears God and shuns evil
2.3 Job 1:20 Job fell to the ground and worshipped
2.3 Job 1:21 Blessed be the name of the Lord
2.4 Job 1:22 Job did not sin nor charge God with wrong
2.5 Job 2:3 God says: blameless and upright...
2.6 Job 2:10 Job did not sin with his lips
Now whether you are off topic and are saying Rightious is not the correct word choice for my point, my point is well made in those references that Job is the best there was on earth, at the time God put Satan in his place.
I called being the best there is from all of those things as rightious. Is your objection with the word choice, or the point?
Point 3.) Leviathan is Satan.
Really? Has that ever been proven? I thought Leviathan was just an unknown.
Point 9.) The Sprit spoke.
Reply:
9.1 Job 42:5 Now that my eyes have seen you.
Job saw God. He recanted once he saw God.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Hi,
Yes, I am mistaken. There were four men, not three. I only thought there were three men, not three men and someone else called Elihu. (I am rapidly reading while responding). A few things about Job, I may not have known. Wow.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .
Upvote
0
Hi again,
Where did Elihu come from and who is he to Job. In 3:11 or so the three friends are mentioned. Then all of a sudden Elihu starts to speak. It has been years, so I did make the mistake of figuring he was the only friend who was correct about God.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .
Upvote
0
- Mar 23, 2004
- 248,794
- 114,490
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Private
- Politics
- US-Constitution
There is perhaps a bigger picture here. What God testifies about Job in the very beginning of the book of Job never ever changes. God testifies that Job is blameless, and He repeats it at least one more time. Why did God call Job blameless?
Thank you kindly.
Upvote
0
Hi,
Great. Can I ask you to apologize to me, for my headache? I suppose not, as I thought I knew Job well enough, but I did not. I do see how you might guess that Leviathan is Satan, or at least something to do with Satan.
Before I come off like a complete idiot here. I was doing something else years ago with this, and I never knew there were four men, primarily because of the difficulties in the way the story is presented.
The work I was doing in not on your topic. However, can you prove Leviathan was Satan? That would be nice if you could.
Also, you said The Spirit spoke to Job and it was not clear at all it was The Spirit to me. It seemed like God spoke to him out of the clouds. And that was important to me, as the way Job responded to God, soon made no sense to me. It was only when I read that he actually saw God, that many things made sense, and maybe just being in the presence of God, also gives information to the recipient. So, when Job said some thing in 40:4, it was I am vile.
I always wondered how he could say that, when God pretty much said it was not true, to us.
Yet, that happened to me also, before I saw God in His Essence. I did not see Him yet. I did not. He was there though and soon He would show Himself to me.
Startled I watched priest/monk. I am many miles from home. I am more than 27 hours by plane. He won't touch me. "He knows. He knows how evil I am. He knows." That is very much equivalent to: "I am vile".
Then God appeared to me, in His Esence. It was Father in the middle. Jesus to His right and The Holy Spirit to His left. After that, I knew much about God. I then started to wonder how that was possible, as all I was allowed to do was to see God in His Essence. Knowing all of Job was not part of the knowledge given to me.
What I am delighted in, is to know of Elihu, whom I thought was one of Job's friends.
Job was in error because of something he did not know. Why he did not listen to Elihu, I do not know. However nothing sticks in my brain/heart/senses until I understand. So maybe that was his problem, or maybe it was just pain and suffering that caused him to error. Early on he talked correctly about God. Why at the end did he make a mistake?
LOVE, (although I think I am on the receiving end of LOVE here.)
...Mary., .... .
Upvote
0
Point 2.) Mary you used the word righteous to describe Job, but the point in fact is that no translation uses the word righteous to describe Job in according to God. Blameless upright, yes; righteous, no.
To see what God is saying about Job you need to turn to Philippians 3:4-6. The Bible says the same thing about Paul that it says about Job. Nobody could brag about their uprightness being more than Paul's, according to Paul. Some do not see what Paul's says as having the same authority as when God says it, but if that is the case, you need to throw out the majority of the New Testament when it comes to Gentiles being saved. Paul was going about killing Christians, and yet Paul said he was blameless.
Also you can look at Israel. They had a zeal for God just like Job. They were a greater servant of God because they were home-born servants where as Job professed to be a hired servant. Hired servants didn't get to partake of the Passover Lamb. Just like Paul & Job, they were without knowledge. If Paul would have had knowledge he wouldn't have gone around killing Christians. And the Jews. like Paul and Job. were ignorant of God's righteousness, and were going about to establish their own righteousness. None of them were saved. (Romans 10:1-3)
You say Job recanted once his eyes were opened, and that is exactly what happened to Paul.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Job asked for a mediator between him and God. Job indicated he wouldn't get a fair shake from God. Job said God would laugh at the trial of the innocent among quite a few other things. Job asked two times for a mediator that take the rod away, and would not scare him. Job 9:34-35 and Job 13:20-22. Notice that Job said then would he speak. Now go to Job 33:5-7. Elihu says stand up and give an answer (Job was now in Elihu's courtroom.) if you can. Elihu says, according to the KJB that Elihu is there according to Job's wish(The word in the Hebrew here is "peh" which means "mouth".) Then Elihu answers Job's request for removing the rod and taking away the fear in verse 7.
It is my opinion, as well as some others that Job is the writer of this book.
Upvote
0
- Mar 23, 2004
- 248,794
- 114,490
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Private
- Politics
- US-Constitution
Upvote
0
You asked how do I make the claim it was Satan. As we go back to the first chapter we see God and his sons having a discussion, and lo and behold Satan shows up to behold what is going on. There couldn't be to much that is higher than God talking to his sons. We go to Job 41:34 and we see that Leviathan beholds all high things. And then we see that Leviathan is king over all the children of pride. Then we go to Isaiah 27:1 and see that Leviathan is a crooked serpent and a dragon. Then we go to
Revelation 20:2 ("And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,--".) and we see the serpent, the dragon, which is the Devil, and Satan.
Also notice the Trinity of Satan, which is the beast, the dragon, and the false prophet in Revelation 16:13. In the book of Job we have the beast(Behemoth) and the dragon(Leviathan) discussed by God to Job.
The spirit I referred to earlier is in Job 4:17, and he speaks to Eliphaz in a dream.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Similar threads
