Today at 10:02 AM SnuP said this in Post #61
Please show scripurally your position on the absolute state of fallen man. In my opinion I have not forgotten the state of fallen man, but I would like to see where you have gotton your opinion of that state from.
Romans 3:10-18
As it is written:
"There is none righteous, no, not one;
<SUP> </SUP>There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
<SUP> </SUP>They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one."
<SUP> </SUP>"Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit";
"The poison of asps is under their lips";
<SUP> </SUP>"Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness."
<SUP> </SUP>"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
<SUP> </SUP>Destruction and misery are in their ways;
<SUP> </SUP>And the way of peace they have not known."
<SUP> </SUP>"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
But he is forced into heaven, and is given, according to this doctrine, a love for God outside of his will to love God. Love does not force itself upon others. According to this doctrine, man has no choice to be changed, saved, gain love, or heaven.
Well, that definitely sounds like man is forced, but only if you believe fallen man would, of his own fallen will, ever freely come to God. The truth of salvation is that he would not. Prior to the Fall man had the ability to make righteous choices and sinful choices. I would not say that his will was "free" because he was still limited in what he could bring about, but he was definitely much freer than man post-Fall. When man fell from grace his nature was corrupted. The term used by those that hold to this belief is "total depravity." I do not think this term is very helpful because "total" can be taken numerous ways and more often than not it is interpreted incorrectly. The correct use of the word "total," in this sense, refers to the completeness of fallen man's corruption, i.e., that every part of his being was corrupted by sin. "Total" is not a reference to level of depravity, i.e., that fallen man is as bad as he could possibly be. Fallen man had no inherent righteousness, therefore he could make no righteous choice. "Choosing to live a life of obedience to God" is a righteous choice, therefore fallen man's nature, being at enmity with God, would never make this choice. Biblical love and biblical hate are much different than the context in which we, as humans who are often led by our emotions, use the words. Biblical love is not an emotion. It is an action. Biblical love is giving the recipient of your love that which they most need with no regard for yourself. Biblical hate is not active, as we would use the term "hate." When we say we "hate" something or someone our feelings are active. We normally do something, even if it is as simple as having bad thoughts toward something or someone. Conversely, biblical hate is passive. Biblical hate is just not extending to the recipient that which they most need. I'll give you an example:
Proverbs 13:24
He who spares his rod
hates his son,
But he who
loves him disciplines him promptly.
Now, most people would not say that if someone didn't "promptly discipline" their son that they "hate" them. But what this means is that loving your child (giving the recipient of your love that which they most need with no regard for yourself) means that you will promptly discipline your child to train them and you will do so without considering how their actions affected you but rather you do so to teach them godly character. In this verse the man who fails to promptly discipline his son is "hating" him because he's not teaching him that which he needs.
Another, more well known verse, is another good example:
Romans 9:13
As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
In this instance the same idea is shown. To Jacob God gave that which Jacob most needed, salvitic grace, with no regard for the enmity between Himself and Jacob, who was fallen. However, to Esau, God did not actively work evil into his heart. Esau was already fallen. All God did was
not give Esau that which he most needed, salvitic grace.
There is another meaning for biblical hate and it is shown here:
Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to Me and does not
hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple."
Now obviously the Lord is not telling us to "hate" our family. What He is saying is that that if anyone comes to Him and loves his family
more than he loves God he cannot serve God loyally, as shown here:
Luke 16:13
"No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other.
So, we must love our family but we must love the Lord even more than we love our family.
Let me clarify my opinion on the process of salvation. First off, salvation is cannot be summed up by saying it's an instantaneous thing. Yes, when the Lord saves us eternally we are saved, forever after. But salvation as a whole is a progressive thing. We
are eternally saved from the wrath of God, we
are being saved from our fallenness through sanctification, and we
will be finally saved when we are glorified. Man is not "saved" against his will because when God regenerates a fallen (dead) creation He gives us a new desire. It is our greatest desire to be saved. It was not, however, the natural inclination of fallen man. So, man does, in a sense, "have a choice." One theologian, his name escapes me, once said, "Man
MUST ALWAYS choose according to his greatest desire or inclination at the time." No matter what decision you make you make it because it's your greatest desire or inclination. The problem with fallen man is that his greatest desire or inclination is
NEVER to serve God so he will
NEVER freely choose to serve God. That's why it's referred to as being "in bondage" to our fallenness. When we are fallen we always serve our flesh and our flesh always rebels against godliness.
While it is true that I am not God, I do have the nature of God in me, and the nature of God is love, and God has clearly defined love in the scriptures, so yes the comparison is valid. Again the real problem is our differing deffinitions to the extent of the depravity of fallen man, so I again ask that you show scriptural support for your position.
Yes, but you are regenerate. You are no longer depraved. You are no longer fallen, at least not in the eternal sense. Saying that a saved individual has the ability to exhibit the love of God is not in question. I have been referring to the nature of fallen man, which
has not been imputed with the righteousness of Christ, nor is fallen man given a nature that seeks to please God.
And I will ask you a question, is a disobedient man saved?
I don't think I can answer that question. There are saved disobedient people and unsaved disobedient people. Getting our salvation wasn't a result of being "obedient" so judging someone's state of salvation is not something I am commanded to do, in fact I'm commanded to not do it.
You have said that we are free to be obedient.
Yes, if you're saved.
Why would God save a person who is going to be disobedient? and if God is so sovereign to change a person then why is the change so incomplete, why is there still disobedience everywhere?
I was going to answer these separately but the answer applies to both. "Disobedience," and I assume that you mean "disobeying the Word of God," is one of the methods that God uses to conform us to the image of righteousness, to the image of His Son. God uses your wife's disobedience to put you in a position where you can exhibit the grace of God and respond to her in godliness. How could you learn to respond in godliness if you never encountered a disagreeable person? God works
ALL things to your good, all of them, even the sinfulness of others.
Did He save us from hell just so that we could have the freedom to be disobedient, disobedient in heaven? None of this makes sence to me.
Don't confuse the nature of regenerate man to the nature of glorified man. In this broken vessel we often succumb to our old, fallen nature, that still resides in us and sometimes we respond according to our new, regenerate nature. It is this battle of our old nature against our new nature that builds godly character. Has anyone ever yelled at you and your first inclination was to yell back? Has God ever given you the grace to respond to that type of thing in a godly way? Don't you learn more about the grace of God when you see that His Word is effectual in a real practical sense? I remember one time my wife was in a really bad mood and she yelled at me, and I could tell it was just the start. She was gearing up. The first thing I wanted to do was yell back. Then I thought, I should deal with this in a godly way. God says that a soft word turns aside wrath. So, I tried that. Well, it was like all of a sudden all the wind came out of her sails and she wasn't sure what to do. What she did do was immediately, and I mean immediately, calmed down. You wanta talk about the grace of God? That was it. Anyway, when we are glorified we will have no desire to rebel against God's Law and our greatest desire will
always be to obey, and that is what we will freely do.
God bless