The TITHES

alex2165 · May 4, 2015

The Tithes

Recently I start to hear calls for donation drive and sometimes even entire sermons have been dedicated to this issue, and not only in my church. And I hear them using the same phrase during their pleading for money, preaching over and over again, GOD loves cheerful giver. This phrase become almost like a slogan and like proverb for them. So, I took a look at the Bible to find out what it actually means.
The phrase was taking out from 2Corinthains 9.6-7

It seems to me that Paul, like in the number of other of his writings kept the same theme, and in this particular case his theme was about money at all, but about good deeds of faith in the name of the Lord, of which he sometimes presented himself as an example, rejecting money completely out of the ministry of Christ, as the Christ Himself and his apostles did, and as all their early followers have done.

At least on two occasion Paul proudly mentioned that he by doing his trade of making tents, not only supported himself financially and materially, but also able to support and his companions in ministry, and by this he set a good example for all godly conscience people to do the same. He mentioned the number of time that he never been a financial burden to any one or to any church.

This phrase of Paul about cheerful giver does not related to donation of money or to tithes in any way as the church using it in their favor. The church twisted and edited the meaning of Paul words and his entire theme of self-reliance and self-support, to sufficiently provide for yourself and for others and not idling, and to avoid reliance purely on money or on the help of the church in the missionary work for Christ.

Concerning tithes, I found about 14 places in the Bible, some of which does not specify the context of tithes, but some does, and here some of them:

Deuteronomy 14.22-24.28
22.You shall surely tithe all the produce from what you sow which comes out of the field every year.
23.And you shall eat in the presence of the Lord your GOD, at the place where He chooses to establish His name, the tithe of your grain, your new wine, your oil, and the first-born of your herd and your flock, in order that you may learn to fear the Lord your GOD always.
24.And if the distance is so great for you that you are not able to bring the tithe, since the place where the Lord your GOD chooses to set His name is too far away from you when the Lord your GOD blesses you,
28.At the end of every third year you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in that year, and shall deposit it in your town.

Deuteronomy 26.12
12.When you have finished paying all the tithe of your increase in the third year, the year of tithing, then you shall give it to the Levite, to the stranger, to the orphan, and to the widow, that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied.

2Chronicles 31.5-6.12
5.And as soon as the order spread, the sons of Israel provided in abundance the first fruits of grain, new wine, oil, honey, and of all the produce of the field, and they brought in abundantly the tithe of all.
6.And the sons of Israel and Judah who lived in the cities of Judah, also brought in the tithe of oxen and sheep, and the tithe of sacred gifts which were consecrated to the Lord their GOD, and placed them in heaps.
12.And they faithfully brought in the contributions, and the tithes, and the consecrated things, and Conaniah the Levite was the officer in charge of them, and his brother Shimei was second.

Nehemiah 10.37-38
37.We will also bring the first of our dough, our contributions, the fruit of every tree, the new wine, and the oil, to the priests at the chambers of the House of our GOD, and the tithe of our ground to the Levites, the Levites are they who receive the tithes in all the rural towns.
38.And the priest the sons of Aaron, shall be with the Levites when the Levites receive tithes, and the Levites shall bring up the tenth of the tithes to the House of our GOD, to the chambers of the storehouse.

Nehemiah 12.44
44.On that day men were also appointed over the chambers for the stores, the contributions, the first fruits, and the tithes, to gather into them from the fields of the cities the portions required by the Law, for the priests and Levites, Judah rejoiced over the priests and Levites who served.

Nehemiah 13.4-5
4.No prior to this, Eliashib the priest, who was appointed over the chambers of the House of our GOD, being related to Tobiah,
5.had prepared a large room for him, where formerly they put the grain offerings, the frankincense, the utensils, and the tithes of grain, wine and oil, prescribed for Levites, the singers, and the gatekeepers, and the contributions for the priests.

Matthew 23.23
23.Woe to you scribes and Pharisees hypocrites for you tithe, mint, and dill, and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the Law: Justice, and Mercy, and Faithfulness, these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.
(1Samuel 15.22) (Psalm 51.16-17) (Proverbs 21.3.27) (Ecclesiastes 5.1) (Hosea 6.6) (Isaiah 1.11-20) (Jeremiah 6.20) (Amos 5.21-24) (Micah 6.6-8) (Zechariah 7.2-4.9-10) (Matthew 9.13, 12.7, 23.23) (Mark 12.32-33)

Luke 11.42
42.But woe to you Pharisees! You pay tithe of mint and rue ("rue - from its thick and fleshly leaves". KSB, Greek Dictionary of the New Testament, page 57), and every kind garden herb, and yet disregard justice and the love of GOD, but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

As it clear indicated above, tithe has nothing to do with money, but had been collected from the field and from animal stock and given to Levites as their food while they serve the Lord, and excess of it have been given to the poor.

By analyzing the statements above, I can clearly see the hypocrisy of the church on this issue, similar to that as they have done with many other statements of the Bible which they reshaped, bend, and twisted in order to meet and to fit their own standards, doctrines, slogans, dogmas, and the most of all greed for money.

But I believe that instead of collecting something that are not tithes and shamelessly passing donation plate up to the nose of people, church actually has right to collect a certain tax for its up-keeping and maintenance, but not for payroll to anyone who serve in the church, and shall not collect 10% from their members.

The monetary tax was established at the time of Tabernacle and the Temple of Solomon, later Herods Temple, to keep it in good shape, but again, not for the payroll to the priests or any other servants of the Temple as it became common practice in todays churches.

Concerning Abraham and Melchizedek king of Salem, Abraham gave him 10% of his booty, not money, because Melchizedek was a priest of GOD Most High. Today we dont have such priests, we have Jesus Christ as the high Priests of GOD, and He does not need or collect any money from anyone, but the only thing He truly need and expecting from us are the Justice, Mercy, Faithfulness, and Love for Him and for one another as it mentioned above, and to follow His commandments and statutes, and these are His tithes that He expecting from us to collect.

Alex

Rescued One · May 4, 2015

I won't argue with any of those verses. Not all our donations go to the pastor. There is expense involved in the upkeep of the building and grounds, etc.

God does love a cheerful giver no matter what you are giving: time, money, talents.

Mark 12
41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. 42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. 43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: 44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

timewerx · May 4, 2015

Exactly at the time of Jesus, He did not ask for tithes, nor preached about the matter.

People voluntarily gave.

Nor they put up a building or whatever to meet under one roof - they met in each other's homes or in public gatherings in the great outdoors.

I've been in such church in modern times and ironically, they were able to do MUCH with so little money.

It made me realize that the drum sets, all they electronic buzz, the large building are all redundant. If people are really genuine, they will come even without the eye and ear candies and with nothing expensive to maintain or run, you can do much with less that you don't have to preach at all about tithing.

And if you are really really for real, people will love to give even if you NEVER ask or preach about it.

alex2165 · May 7, 2015

I share the point of view with Timewerx. If the main goal of today’s churches will be not the money but the Word of GOD in its true sense, I am sure that people will volunteer their money without been asking for or be reminded of.
If early church manages to grow so wide, big, and quickly, and spread the Gospel of Christ all over the world in few hundred years, on the “shoe-string” budget, practically without any monetary support, I just wonder what would happen today if we remove all the money and profit of the church from its domain? Would Christianity go anywhere today without money?
I think the church of course need some money to pay their utility bills, but how much, a $100.000 or more, that is actually the budget today of most small and medium and churches.
I would like to see in the church a box dedicated for donations, strategically placed at the entrance or at the exit of the church, or any where there it can be easily seen, and the statement from bank above it for each and every month, so people would see how much money church have and how much it need it.
Of course people would not donate as much as to the offering plate, but it will the honest and decent and truly Christian way to do it.

stormdancer0 · May 13, 2015

My biggest problem with the OP is how is a pastor supposed to live if the members do not help him?

I know, some churches have "tent-maker" pastors - those who work outside the church. But a sermon itself can take 15 to 20 hours of research and planning. If a pastor works 40 hours a week, when is he supposed to do that?

Plus there's visiting the sick, helping out the needy, counseling and advising people who need help. . . The list goes on and on.

Then there are his wife and children. How much time do they deserve of their spouse and dad?

Pastoring a church of more than 25 or 50 people is a full-time job. It is in general a thankless and stressful job.

Tell me, without a tithe, or at least a regular offering, how is a pastor and his or her family supposed to survive?

People don't like God getting involved in their wallet. It's okay for Him to be Lord over their habits, their relationships, even their spare time. But He better stay out of their money!!

Most of the time, people who make these arguments against tithing are the ones who drop a 20 in the offering plate a couple of times a month, then get ticked off when the pastor doesn't get up at 2:00 a.m. and rush to the ER with them when a family member gets hurt or sick. (Which the pastor can't do because he has to be at work early in the morning. Which is forced on them by members who do not believe in tithing)

Just my own experience as a pastor.

High Fidelity · May 13, 2015

I don't think there's really anything wrong with asking for assistance with costs, but if it becomes the primary preaching then no, that's not OK.

alex2165 · May 14, 2015

stormdancer0 said:
My biggest problem with the OP is how is a pastor supposed to live if the members do not help him?

I know, some churches have "tent-maker" pastors - those who work outside the church. But a sermon itself can take 15 to 20 hours of research and planning. If a pastor works 40 hours a week, when is he supposed to do that?

Plus there's visiting the sick, helping out the needy, counseling and advising people who need help. . . The list goes on and on.

Then there are his wife and children. How much time do they deserve of their spouse and dad?

Pastoring a church of more than 25 or 50 people is a full-time job. It is in general a thankless and stressful job.

Tell me, without a tithe, or at least a regular offering, how is a pastor and his or her family supposed to survive?

People don't like God getting involved in their wallet. It's okay for Him to be Lord over their habits, their relationships, even their spare time. But He better stay out of their money!!

Most of the time, people who make these arguments against tithing are the ones who drop a 20 in the offering plate a couple of times a month, then get ticked off when the pastor doesn't get up at 2:00 a.m. and rush to the ER with them when a family member gets hurt or sick. (Which the pastor can't do because he has to be at work early in the morning. Which is forced on them by members who do not believe in tithing)

Just my own experience as a pastor.

To Stormdancer

I heard it before about pastors who spent 40 hours a week working, and visiting people, and doing other good things, but personally, and all the people I know, never seen any pastor who does any of such things.

I am now over 60, and have been in many churches throughout my life, and I also have a habit to stop and walk in into a church when I travel, and never saw a single pastor who does any of such things you mentioned.

May be some do work a little bit on their sermon, and may be some pastors in a small church do visit some of their members, but majority of them not even close to what you mentioned, you simply made it all up.

Actually I converse before, a while ago, with some guy who also mentioned same thing as you did, and I do not know if it was you or it was another guy, but the matter of fact that overwhelming majority of the pastors are idling, and do not do their job properly, and on their free times do their own business and have additional incomes, and many of them are simply crooks.

And this is not to mention other people who also live parasitic life style as their pastors, who are also on the payroll of the church and make their living at the expense of their parishioners.

People sometimes ask a question, just like you did, “How they can support themselves and their family?”

The answer is simple; THEY SHOULD GET A REAL JOB!, and not be a burden to those who work hard in their church.

Many pastors I seen are very young and able to provide for themselves and for their families, and those who retired they can find a part-time job, just like any other ordinary person would do.

And above all, as many as I seen pastors in my life, none of them even deserve to be paid. Their preaching is shallow, without any deep understanding of that they preach.

It seems to me that they preach according to some kind universal script, which allowed only preaching traditional church doctrines, dogmas, old Christian slogans, and established cliché, and nothing of truly educational or useful.

If you are a pastor yourself, I understand you as a person who benefit from the work of others, but if you are just a guy from the church, the lack of knowledge and understanding of the church clergy and their dealings makes you naïve idealist thinking that pastors and their paid personal are truly work hard for their brothers and sisters in Christ, they are NOT.

As in the past, the church today is extremely corrupt, and does not serve its original purpose to educate people and to direct them to GOD.

Hypocrites always say; “GOD loves cheerful giver”, verse taken out of contexts which is originally means give mercy, compassion, and love to those who are in need and to the poor in terms of shelter, clothing, and food, it is a theme of entire chapter.

“For free receive and for free you shall give.”

And here is about the church leaders:

2Peter 2.19

19.promising them freedom, while themselves are slaves of corruption. By what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.

timewerx · May 14, 2015

stormdancer0 said:
Plus there's visiting the sick, helping out the needy, counseling and advising people who need help. . . The list goes on and on.

IMO, that is not just the responsibility of the pastor but everyone.

Also, I'm not a big fan of Apostle Paul so I'll tell things upfront:

Prior to Paul, there were no churches. The ministry of Jesus is often a one-time preaching only to many people.

Jesus sow the seed of truth in people and those who gladly accept, build on it from there on and doing the same thing as Jesus did.

What Jesus did is like a chain reaction (same process that drives nuclear fission). And what Jesus started required virtually no money because of its "one time" nature.

What the ex-Pharisee Paul did mirrored what the Pharisees have been doing since the beginning - establish institutions for people to congregate - this system actually came from Babylon - the Tower of Babel or that big building if you recall when people gathered in large numbers and God confused their language and dispersed them.

Contrary to what most people believe since they have been listening to lies all their lives, we are far more efficient congregating in small units and dispersed than congregating in large numbers. And I'm speaking of converting energy to useful work - work to make the world a better place, not worse, not to massacre animals wholesale, wholesale destruction of forests, polluting the land with our toxic wastes.

Most religions has been working upon ignorance. Jesus set us straight but Paul brought us back to the crooked ignorant ways of the Pharisees.

Oh did Jesus warned us against the Yeast of the Pharisees??? Paul was even more than a Yeast of the Pharisees and yet, many did not see. He thought Jesus changed him as many of you did so, but out of ignorance you only thought so, but in reality was a fake conversion.

stormdancer0 · May 15, 2015

alex2165 said:
To Stormdancer

I heard it before about pastors who spent 40 hours a week working, and visiting people, and doing other good things, but personally, and all the people I know, never seen any pastor who does any of such things.

I am now over 60, and have been in many churches throughout my life, and I also have a habit to stop and walk in into a church when I travel, and never saw a single pastor who does any of such things you mentioned.

May be some do work a little bit on their sermon, and may be some pastors in a small church do visit some of their members, but majority of them not even close to what you mentioned, you simply made it all up.

Actually I converse before, a while ago, with some guy who also mentioned same thing as you did, and I do not know if it was you or it was another guy, but the matter of fact that overwhelming majority of the pastors are idling, and do not do their job properly, and on their free times do their own business and have additional incomes, and many of them are simply crooks.

And this is not to mention other people who also live parasitic life style as their pastors, who are also on the payroll of the church and make their living at the expense of their parishioners.

People sometimes ask a question, just like you did, “How they can support themselves and their family?”

The answer is simple; THEY SHOULD GET A REAL JOB!, and not be a burden to those who work hard in their church.

Many pastors I seen are very young and able to provide for themselves and for their families, and those who retired they can find a part-time job, just like any other ordinary person would do.

And above all, as many as I seen pastors in my life, none of them even deserve to be paid. Their preaching is shallow, without any deep understanding of that they preach.

It seems to me that they preach according to some kind universal script, which allowed only preaching traditional church doctrines, dogmas, old Christian slogans, and established cliché, and nothing of truly educational or useful.

If you are a pastor yourself, I understand you as a person who benefit from the work of others, but if you are just a guy from the church, the lack of knowledge and understanding of the church clergy and their dealings makes you naïve idealist thinking that pastors and their paid personal are truly work hard for their brothers and sisters in Christ, they are NOT.

As in the past, the church today is extremely corrupt, and does not serve its original purpose to educate people and to direct them to GOD.

Hypocrites always say; “GOD loves cheerful giver”, verse taken out of contexts which is originally means give mercy, compassion, and love to those who are in need and to the poor in terms of shelter, clothing, and food, it is a theme of entire chapter.

“For free receive and for free you shall give.”

And here is about the church leaders:

2Peter 2.19

19.promising them freedom, while themselves are slaves of corruption. By what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.

How sad for you. Every preacher you ever met preached shallow sermons with no deep understanding?? You obviously have been going to the wrong churches.

I am a pastor, in fact. It does take me at least 10-20 hours to put together a sermon. I don't preach any church dogma or slogans or cliches. I preach straight from God's Word. I go out and feed the homeless. I visit people in the hospital, sit by people as they die at home or in hospice. I oversee several ministries that our church is involved in. I go to people's homes to see how they are doing. I preside over baptisms, weddings, conversions, and funerals. I evangelize, visiting non-believers and conversing with them, urging them to come to Christ. I clean my church weekly. I take care of the books, being sure that every penny is accounted for. I take congregants to doctors appointments, and to the store. There are so many things that I do, it would make your head spin. It is not a 40 hour a week job. Some weeks, it's more like 60 hours. I am available to our members 24/7. I counsel people who are getting off of drugs, people who are depressed, who are getting married, who are having crises of faith. Should I go on?

You have generalized an awful lot. "The church" is corrupt? Which one? All of them? Have you been to every church in the country? Have you followed around a pastor as he does his work?

And frankly, sir, to say that full-time pastors should "get a real job" is one of the most moronic things I have ever read.

It amazes me how you say that every pastor you ever heard only have a superficial knowledge of the Bible. Superficial in comparison to whom? You? You have some kind of special revelation that gives you the right to say that? Maybe they are preaching so above your head that you just aren't getting it. Or maybe, just maybe, you don't know what you are talking about.

You obviously have NO IDEA about a true church pastor. You make assumptions based on what you observe, and you know nothing about the life of a pastor and his or her family.

I thank God you are not in my congregation. The amount you do not know about church is astounding.

stormdancer0 · May 15, 2015

timewerx said:
IMO, that is not just the responsibility of the pastor but everyone.

Also, I'm not a big fan of Apostle Paul so I'll tell things upfront:

Prior to Paul, there were no churches. The ministry of Jesus is often a one-time preaching only to many people.

Jesus sow the seed of truth in people and those who gladly accept, build on it from there on and doing the same thing as Jesus did.

What Jesus did is like a chain reaction (same process that drives nuclear fission). And what Jesus started required virtually no money because of its "one time" nature.

What the ex-Pharisee Paul did mirrored what the Pharisees have been doing since the beginning - establish institutions for people to congregate - this system actually came from Babylon - the Tower of Babel or that big building if you recall when people gathered in large numbers and God confused their language and dispersed them.

Contrary to what most people believe since they have been listening to lies all their lives, we are far more efficient congregating in small units and dispersed than congregating in large numbers. And I'm speaking of converting energy to useful work - work to make the world a better place, not worse, not to massacre animals wholesale, wholesale destruction of forests, polluting the land with our toxic wastes.

Most religions has been working upon ignorance. Jesus set us straight but Paul brought us back to the crooked ignorant ways of the Pharisees.

Oh did Jesus warned us against the Yeast of the Pharisees??? Paul was even more than a Yeast of the Pharisees and yet, many did not see. He thought Jesus changed him as many of you did so, but out of ignorance you only thought so, but in reality was a fake conversion.

While I do not agree with your beliefs regarding Paul, I do agree that we work better, and get more work completed, if we were to stay in small units. Every small church I've ever been in, whether member or pastor, has done more to help the needy than all the huge churches put together. Churches with thousands of members have so much bureaucracy that all their energy goes toward running the church, rather than bringing in converts and helping the needy.

timewerx · May 15, 2015

stormdancer0 said:
While I do not agree with your beliefs regarding Paul, I do agree that we work better, and get more work completed, if we were to stay in small units. Every small church I've ever been in, whether member or pastor, has done more to help the needy than all the huge churches put together. Churches with thousands of members have so much bureaucracy that all their energy goes toward running the church, rather than bringing in converts and helping the needy.

What you observed is true.

It also manifests in secular organizations, in national infrastructures. In fact, the bigger a city gets or the more populated it gets, the lower the average satisfaction in living gets, the harder it gets to manage and the more serious its problems become. The gap between the rich and poor also tend to be huge in large or overpopulated cities and this creates serious social issues.

Large congregations, religious or not, is a magnet for disaster and woes. The popular example of this is 1st city of Babylon. Revelations prophesied its return and here we are today, living in a Babylon system...

Some of the bad things a Christian often does is copying this defective Babylon system like big churches.

The reason for small units is permanence and it is not supposed to be permanent in any sense. Permanence is what makes religion and Christ did not start a religion, he simply sow the seed of Truth.

Simon Peter · May 16, 2015

never mind...
---

thesunisout · May 16, 2015

read Acts 4:34-37 to understand why churches are asking for money. it's because the church isn't being the church. New Testament Christianity goes far, far above the tithe as far as how we should use our money and possessions.

Jesus doesn't preach the tithe He preaches radical generosity even to our own detriment and the disciples lived that way they gave everything they had to anyone who had need.

it's not just the Pastors fault who often is just trying to keep his church above water. it's the the whole church which has failed to grasp the true meaning of the teachings of Jesus. If you are bucking at the tithe you have missed the point entirely.

The tithe is not even close to being sufficient for how Jesus calls us to live. People who think they are all good with God concerning their money because they tithe are equally as confused. I'm not saying that I'm living at that level but I do recognize the standard that the Word of God is calling us to.

Simon Peter · May 17, 2015

stormdancer0 said:
I am a pastor, in fact. It does take me at least 10-20 hours to put together a sermon. I don't preach any church dogma or slogans or cliches. I preach straight from God's Word. I go out and feed the homeless. I visit people in the hospital, sit by people as they die at home or in hospice. I oversee several ministries that our church is involved in. I go to people's homes to see how they are doing. I preside over baptisms, weddings, conversions, and funerals. I evangelize, visiting non-believers and conversing with them, urging them to come to Christ. I clean my church weekly. I take care of the books, being sure that every penny is accounted for. I take congregants to doctors appointments, and to the store. There are so many things that I do, it would make your head spin. It is not a 40 hour a week job. Some weeks, it's more like 60 hours. I am available to our members 24/7. I counsel people who are getting off of drugs, people who are depressed, who are getting married, who are having crises of faith. Should I go on?
...
And frankly, sir, to say that full-time pastors should "get a real job" is one of the most moronic things I have ever read.

Sorry, but I'm not impressed that you visit the sick and elderly, the problem is twofold:

1. Christians should be doing all these things. The church should not be hiring someone to do it for them.
2. You're being paid to visit people, it's your job, it only impresses the ignorant.

When someone voluntarily takes time out of their busy life to visit someone, without compensation, that demonstrates genuine care and concern.
That's Christianity...

peace,

Simon

timewerx · May 18, 2015

thesunisout said:
read Acts 4:34-37 to understand why churches are asking for money. it's because the church isn't being the church. New Testament Christianity goes far, far above the tithe as far as how we should use our money and possessions.

Jesus doesn't preach the tithe He preaches radical generosity even to our own detriment and the disciples lived that way they gave everything they had to anyone who had need.

it's not just the Pastors fault who often is just trying to keep his church above water. it's the the whole church which has failed to grasp the true meaning of the teachings of Jesus. If you are bucking at the tithe you have missed the point entirely.

The tithe is not even close to being sufficient for how Jesus calls us to live. People who think they are all good with God concerning their money because they tithe are equally as confused. I'm not saying that I'm living at that level but I do recognize the standard that the Word of God is calling us to.

This is true but it goes both ways. Generosity is not only demonstrated in the church. In fact non believers do a better job at leaving the comforts of their home to do humanitarian work in a distant land. Its Godly love even if its secular work done by atheists. Most religious people dont understand God's nature

alex2165 · May 19, 2015

stormdancer0 said:
How sad for you. Every preacher you ever met preached shallow sermons with no deep understanding?? You obviously have been going to the wrong churches.

I am a pastor, in fact. It does take me at least 10-20 hours to put together a sermon. I don't preach any church dogma or slogans or cliches. I preach straight from God's Word. I go out and feed the homeless. I visit people in the hospital, sit by people as they die at home or in hospice. I oversee several ministries that our church is involved in. I go to people's homes to see how they are doing. I preside over baptisms, weddings, conversions, and funerals. I evangelize, visiting non-believers and conversing with them, urging them to come to Christ. I clean my church weekly. I take care of the books, being sure that every penny is accounted for. I take congregants to doctors appointments, and to the store. There are so many things that I do, it would make your head spin. It is not a 40 hour a week job. Some weeks, it's more like 60 hours. I am available to our members 24/7. I counsel people who are getting off of drugs, people who are depressed, who are getting married, who are having crises of faith. Should I go on?

You have generalized an awful lot. "The church" is corrupt? Which one? All of them? Have you been to every church in the country? Have you followed around a pastor as he does his work?

And frankly, sir, to say that full-time pastors should "get a real job" is one of the most moronic things I have ever read.

It amazes me how you say that every pastor you ever heard only have a superficial knowledge of the Bible. Superficial in comparison to whom? You? You have some kind of special revelation that gives you the right to say that? Maybe they are preaching so above your head that you just aren't getting it. Or maybe, just maybe, you don't know what you are talking about.

You obviously have NO IDEA about a true church pastor. You make assumptions based on what you observe, and you know nothing about the life of a pastor and his or her family.

I thank God you are not in my congregation. The amount you do not know about church is astounding.

“Simon Peter” made an excellent point and I completely agree with him.

Pastors charging not only for their preaching, they also charging for funeral and weddings, and for other things they do “for GOD”.

Concerning Paul, he is a great man and I love him greatly, he is my best among all other Apostles, because he truly dedicated himself to serve the Christ without being burden to anyone.

His goal was to be paid in full in the Kingdom of GOD and to reserve for himself a higher status in Heaven, instead of satisfying himself with the money here on Earth for which in Heaven there is no reward. Paul was absolutely and fully honest with GOD and with others in this matter and this is why Jesus Christ chose him for His serves.

Paul gave himself completely up to the serves of GOD, giving perfect and truly Christian example of true Faith, Honesty, and self-sacrifices for the Gospel of the Lord.

But unfortunately his example as a true and honest shepherd of the flock - the pastor of Gentiles, has been despised and ignored by main-stream Christianity, who converted, distorted, edited, bended, and twisted his entire Epistles, in which he clearly indicated and being proud of to serve Gentiles in the name of Christ without any monetary reward.

Acts 20.34

Words of Apostle Paul to Ephesians elders

34.You know for yourselves thatI worked with my own hands to support myself and my companions.

2Peter 3.15-16

15.and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,

16.speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction as they do the other scriptures.

To Stormdancer

So, all the Non-Christians serving others for money just like you do, and may be even better than you do, so tell me the difference between you and them? You exalting yourself as being true pastor and spending so many hours do something for the church, but there is nothing really to boast about, because you got paid, you just doing your job for money as any other hired man on this planet.

Above all, it is responsibility of all true Christians to visit sick, elderly, ill, and help the poor, and I do it since I became a Christian myself, and I am not paid for it, and never would accept any money for it.

I also propagate Gospel whenever I could without any charge, and conduct Bible Study at any opportunity I have without paying for it.

My example to follow is Christ and His Apostles, included Paul, and all first Christians who spread the Gospel of Christ to all corners of the globe without being paid.

I am sure, that if we take all the money from religion today, the whole false and paid Christianity will sop to a holt. And most likely you will be among those who will quit. This would be a perfect test for those who are real Christian and who are not.

Anyway, what is your professional trade besides being a professional pastor?

You also wrote, “I thank God you are not in my congregation”,.

And I can say, “Thanks GOD I never have a pastor or any other teacher like you.”

stormdancer0 · May 21, 2015

Actually, I have never, in all my years as a pastor gotten paid for it.

If the Christians sitting in the pews would do what they are commanded in the Bible to do, it would help. But that almost never happens. They expect the pastor to drop everything every time they or their family gets a fart cross-ways. They expect the pastor to give up family activities to do their weddings, they have fits when the pastor goes on vacations and turns their phones off. A pastor of a 300 member church gets 10 volunteers to chaperone youth trips. Three or four are willing to teach Sunday School. The pastor is supposed to be available to the congregation every time someone is down, or anxious, or just confused.

But, according to you, they are not following the Bible if they want to touch the poor congregations precious money.

You want some Bible to go with that?

First Timothy 5:17-18 is where Paul tells Timothy to, “Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, The laborer deserves his wages.”

1 Corinthians 9:1-14:

Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord? If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.This is my defense to those who would examine me. Do we not have the right to eat and drink? Do we not have the right to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working for a living? Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard without eating any of its fruit? Or who tends a flock without getting some of the milk? Do I say these things on human authority? Does not the Law say the same? For it is written in the Law of Moses, You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain.” Is it for oxen that God is concerned? Does he not certainly speak for our sake? It was written) for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop. If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? If others share this rightful claim on you, do not we even more? Nevertheless, we have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ. Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings? In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.

How does this translate that a pastor should not get paid??

stormdancer0 · May 21, 2015

Oh Yeah.

There's this:
Galatians 6:6
One who is taught the word must share all good things with the one who teaches.

In verses such as Luke 10:7-8 and Matthew 10:10, the Lord Jesus himself taught the same precept, that spiritual workers deserve to be paid for their service.

alex2165 · May 21, 2015

stormdancer0 said:
Oh Yeah.

There's this:
Galatians 6:6
One who is taught the word must share all good things with the one who teaches.

In verses such as Luke 10:7-8 and Matthew 10:10, the Lord Jesus himself taught the same precept, that spiritual workers deserve to be paid for their service.

To Stordancer
You twisting the meaning of the Bible verses like other people do when they want to prove their point or their lifestyle.
None of the verses you presented meant money, but the support in food, shelter, clothing, and in other things that could help the needy MISSIONARY to do his MISSIONARY work.

And even as the Apostles of Christ in Jerusalem at one point in time were in need for food because of the persecution, Paul wrote to the church to prepare everything before he will arrive so he can take all the donations in food and clothing and deliver it to Jerusalem.

Above all, almost everything that Paul wrote relate to the MISSIONARY WORK which you as a pastor of the stationary church do not relate in any way. You are not on the road to preach and spread the Gospel, and you have your own place to stay, and you have your own additional income beside the church, and you are not traveling and starving, and you are not get cold at night because you sometimes have to sleep under the open sky for the lock of shelter, you have you own comfortable place.

So majority of the Paul's writing do not relate to you or to any other person who serve in the church, but mostly it relates to the people like Paul and others, who are on the road spreading the GOSPEL of Christ and always in need of some material help, but not the money.
Paul and all early missionaries and pastors understood that if they receive money for their service, they are no longer working for GOD but for themselves, because spreading the Gospel is the Spiritual thing for the glory of the Holy Spirit. GOD is the Spirit, and have to be served and worshiped only in spirit, and money has nothing to do with it.

And if some of the pastor fell in despair and become in need of material support, church can easily support him in anything he need, and even with some money, but not put a man on the payroll, because in this case he would not work for GOD but for himself for money, and this is not that the Jesus, His Apostles, and Paul meant when the spoke concerning support for those who do GOD'S work.

When Jesus sent His disciples, He sent them without anything at all, when other 500 have been sent to preach the Gospel, they have been sent in the same way without any money and even without extra clothes or sandals or anything else that the travelers usually take with them on the road.

By this Jesus Christ set an example for the missionaries and the pastors as well, not to depend on money, but on the Holy Spirit through your own Faith, in order that the Holy Spirit will provide everything what the MISSIOANRY and a pastor need in the work for GOD, as had been happen with all early MISSIONARIES who travel and spread the Gospel all around the world without any monetary support, to whom today we surely own great appreciation for the Gospel they given to us, without charging anyone a penny.

Concerning saying "You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain", as many hypocrites presented this verse with other passages related to support of the missionaries and pastors, its meaning also has been twisted and distorted.

Not to muzzle the ox means not to resist or oppose the spreading of the Gospel in any way, and not to withhold material support (not money) from him who is on the MISSION, in terms of food, water, shelter, clothes, sandals, and other thing needed for one who works for the Gospel of Christ.

And here a few out of many passages that indicate precisely that.

Matthew 10.10-11
10.no bag for your journey, or two tunics, or sandals, or a staff, laborers deserve their food.

Luke 10.7
7.Remain in the same house, eating and drinking whatever they provide, the laborer deserves to be paid ("paid"-NRSV, "wages" - KSB, in other Bible translated as "reward" and us "support"). Do not move about from house to house.

Acts 20.34-35
Disciple Paul’s farewell to the elders of Ephesians church in Miletus before leaving to Jerusalem.
34.You know for yourselves that I worked with my own hands to support myself and my companions.
35.In all this I have given you an example that by such work we must support the weak, remembering the words of the Lord Jesus He Himself said: ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.” (Luke 14.13-14)

Acts 28.30-31
Apostle Paul in Rome.
30.He (Paul) lived there two whole years at his own expense and welcomed all who came to him, 31.proclaiming the kingdom of GOD and teaching about the Lord Jesus Christ with all boldness and without hindrance

1Corinthians 9.13-14.18.24-25
13.Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the Temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share with the altar?
14.So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the Gospel to get their living from Gospel. (Matthew 10.9-10) (Luke 10.7) (1Timothy 5.17-18)
18.What then is my reward? That when I preach the Gospel I may offer the Gospel without charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the Gospel.
24.Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25.And everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.

Also, read the entire chapter, because most of it is actually dedicated to the material support of the missionaries in terms of food and other things, but NOT MONEY. Word money is not even mentioned in any of the passages related to support.

1Thessalonians 2.9
9.You recall brethren our labor and hardship, how working night and day, so as not to be a burden to any of you, we proclaimed to you the Gospel of GOD.

First Thessalonians 4.11-12
11.to aspire to live quietly, to mind your own affairs, and to work with your hands as we directed you,
12.so that you may behave properly toward outsiders and be depended on no one.

2Thessalonians 3.7-12
Warning of Paul against idleness. Work and Support yourselves to earn your own living. Second Thessalonians 3.7-12
7.You yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you,
8.nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with labor and hardship we kept working night and day, so that we might not be a burden to any of you,
9.not because we do not have the right to this, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, that you might follow our example.
10.Even when we were with you, we used to give you this order, if anyone will not work, neither let him eat.
11.We hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies.
12.Now, such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to work in quiet fashion, and eat their own bread.

To Titus 1.10-11.16
10.There are also many rebellious people idle, takers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,
11.they must be silenced since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for sordid gain what it is not right to teach.
16.They profess to know GOD but they deny Him by their actions. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.
And here something about hard work for the Gospel about which so boasting about being a “perfect” pastor.

Luke 17.7-10
7. Who among you would say to your slave who was just come in from plowing or tending sheep in the field, ‘Come here at once and take your place at the table?’
8.Would you not rather say to him, ‘Prepare supper for me, put your apron and serve me while I eat and drink, later you may eat and drink?’
9.Do you thank the slave for doing what was commanded?
10.So you also, when you have done all that you were ordered to do, say, ‘We are worthless slaves, we have done only what we ought to have done!”

2 Thessalonians 3.10
10.Even when we were with you we gave you this command. Anyone unwilling to work should not eat.

If all these passages do not convince you that there is no such thing as the monetary support for the preaching the Gospel, then I do not know what will.

timewerx · May 21, 2015

stormdancer0 said:
If someone won't work, they should not eat.

Pauline concept.

Jesus said no such thing. Jesus even took mention of how animals get fed without working. Jesus is also fond of widows and highly regards them despite resorting to begging and become homeless because having no inheritance and very little opportunities to earn for a living because they are women (harshly oppressed in His time).

Pauline teaching of that doctrine is no different than worldly principle of how we should treat those with jobs and those with no jobs.

In fact, Pauline teaching in that situation is quite unfavorable to women in his time for the simple fact they have a lot less opportunity to earn for a living and the widow dilemma.

Paul is no different than the Pharisees as Paul claimed to be and their treatment of women. In fact the attitude of Judas Iscariot is reflected in Paul since Judas got annoyed by a woman - Mary Magdalene.

Jesus warned us against the Yeast of the Pharisees - just a teeny bit of it is enough and Paul is more than just a teeny bit of Pharisee.

I'm NOT trying to justify stinginess. It's just that I'm not in a church atm because I have yet to find a formal church gathering that only preaches about Jesus minus Paul. If I find such church, I might even give 50% of my earnings to the church fund and even volunteer in a lot of their work.

Right now, I just give over 50% of my earnings to my parents and they're not big (my salary, not my parents!), I'm just a clerk in a 3rd world nation and my parents have a joke pension so I'll have to support them so they don't get poor. I'm not a big fan of saving up money for myself. Been through thin and thick. In thin right now and it's pointless trying to make myself feel better so I give as much money to them. I have very little possessed, my quality of life would be like serving a prison sentence in relative terms to many of you here.

My parents give some of the money I give them to their church so indirectly I'm giving some to the church even if I don't agree with the statement of faith of the church my parents attend to.

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