Preterism's Straw Men: Rebuilding the Wall -- a non-sequitur.

gospelfer

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This is third in a series of essays pointing out those preterist arguments having no virtue at all (most of them).

Another straw man upon which the preterists spend their arrows is the idea that futurists (those who believe in a believing national Israel returned to the land) seek to rebuild the wall of separation between gentile and Jew. This is a false accusation. Futurists believe that God deals with all mankind only through Christ and the new covenant, and this is the meaning of spiritual Israel. However, futurists also believe that the historical/prophetic drama of national Israel (the Jew) has yet to fully play out. According to this view, national Israel (the Jew) currently stands outside spiritual Israel, but will not do so forever; God will soon make national Israel a part of spiritual Israel, uniting the two. This position has tremendous support in prophecy (Deut 28-30, 4, Micah 5, Zechariah 12, etc, etc, etc). Certainly, Paul believed this (Romans 11).

From this perspective, the Jew's return is a historical drama, and his return a historical event. Stated simply, this means merely that the Jewish nation will enter the new covenant. In the 5th century the Irish nation was saved and entered the new covenant. Why cannot God do the same with the Jewish nation in the 21st century? Why is Ireland's salvation acceptable and the salvation of national Israel unacceptable? Preterism has no answer to this question. In additional to receiving Christ, the Jewish nation will return to the land of Israel. This simultaneous spiritual and physical return of the Jew is one of the signs of the millennium – it fulfills too much prophecy to list. If God does not save the Jew and return him to the land, half of prophecy is wrong.

Thus the futurist position is not one that rebuilds a wall of separation between the Jew and gentile. The futurists position merely states the God will save the Jews and return them to the land as a nation. This is not a spiritual separation; rather it is a union, the union of all those partake of Christ. Also, it is a position that respects and upholds prophecy and God's book.

What makes this particular preterist argument so weak is that there is nobody who believes in (or desires) this rebuilding of a spiritual wall; I have yet to see anyone on this forum argue in its favor, and yet the preterists repeatedly voice this accusation. In the preterist's mind, the return of national Israel to the land and to God's favor (its entrance into the new covenant) is a spiritual distinction. This confusion in the preterist's mind arises from a primary logical fallacy which melds worldly (prophetic) history with spiritual destiny (or value). The two are not the same, and both prophecy and Paul take pains to draw a distinction between the two. The preterists often seem to forget that it was Christ's work that tore down the spiritual wall, not Israel's destruction at Roman hands. The return of believing Jew's to the land cannot restore this wall. The land of Israel is a place, and Jew is a lineage; how can place and lineage (both purely temporal things) constitute a spiritual wall? Thus, the preterist cannot explain how the believing Jew living in the land of Israel rebuilds a spiritual wall of separation – and yet the preterist insists that it is necessarily the case. Thus, this particular preterist fallacy is a non-sequitur; that is, it affirms a conclusion unsupported by initial premises.

Prophecy and Paul say the Jew will return to God's favor and to the land. Our job is not to deny prophecy in favor of doctrine, but find an honest way whereby both can be true. The ancient Jews had a doctrine which prevented them from understanding God complexity; they also had a doctrine preventing them from understanding the Messiah and his dual role. Both doctrines were supported by disconnected verses in scripture; however, the prophetic story implicitly denied both doctrines. If the ancient Jews had spent less time defending doctrine, and more time checking their doctrine against the prophetic story, they might have realized their doctrine had insufficient subtlety to deal with the complexities of the prophetic story.

Just the other day, talking with a fellow about education, I said that I supported vouchers for home-schooling, and he replied, “So you don't care if children go uneducated?!” It is the preterist's non-sequitur in a nutshell. This fellow's definition of education was artificially narrow, too narrow to accommodate the idea of home-schooling. Likewise, the preterist's idea of spiritual Israel is artificially narrow, too narrow to accommodate what prophecy says about the Jew's historical return; the preterist's response to this conflict is to discard prophecy. That is, the preterist's response to unassimilable prophecy is the same as the ancient rabbi's. In short, any form of preterism not able to accommodate prophecy's vision of the believing Jew in the land is a sort of modern Talmudism (sans beard and black hat, if you like). It is passing strange that anyone would want to perform an encore of the ancient rabbinic mistake.

Again, if one has a strong argument, one uses it; preterism's one scriptural argument is weak and trivially dispatched. Instead of finding stronger arguments to support his position, the preterist erects an opposing platoon of straw men, and amuses himself by beating the stuffing out of them. The problem, as with all straw men, is that nobody on the opposing side actually supports the revolting idea the preterist imputes. In this case, it is the idea of a renewed spiritual wall, separating gentile and Jew; the preterist imputes this renewed wall, but no such wall is to be found in the doctrine of anyone (here) believing in the return of the believing Jew to the land.
 
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duolos

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I needed a term indicating someone who foresees believing Jewry returning to the land. If you have a better (or more standard) term, I'll be happy to use it.
Believing Jewry should understand that like the rest of Christianity they are strangers and exiles in the land, and that if the land was what their longing was for they already have the opportunity to return, but as it is they desire a heavenly country (Heb 11:13-16)
 
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gospelfer

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Believing Jewry should understand that like the rest of Christianity they are strangers and exiles in the land, and that if the land was what their longing was for they already have the opportunity to return, but as it is they desire a heavenly country (Heb 11:13-16)

All perfectly true. The earth is real and important; heaven is more real and more important. Nevertheless, Christ wept over Jerusalem, an earthly place. It is not wrong to love an earthly place, but it is wrong to love it too much, and all earthly things are like this. Your point is important, but it is beside the point here. Although our heavenly home is more important than our earthly one, there is nothing in this fact to prevent prophecy from coming true. Prophecy is about what is going to happen on earth, and for some reason the presentation of that history remains very intertwined with the story of the Jew. This fact is odd, curious, and surprising; but then so is life.
 
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gospelfer

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Like... Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
It is the city of the great King.

Exactly. That sort of verse (of which the Bible is full) cannot be assimilated to the preterist doctrine. The preterists often seem to preach something not far from Hinduism -- the unreality of the world. It is part of the motive force behind their attack on prophecy and Israel's national story. I suspect that the preterist mind works something like this: "The assembly of God is a universal body whose true home is heaven. Prophecy can't be true because it would make a worldly story about a particular lineage important. Also, the Jews are bad." Of course, the preterist will not use these exact words, but it is the final result of this thinking.
 
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Exactly. That sort of verse (of which the Bible is full) cannot be assimilated to the preterist doctrine. The preterists often seem to preach something not far from Hinduism -- the unreality of the world. It is part of the motive force behind their attack on prophecy and Israel's national story. I suspect that the preterist mind works something like this: "The assembly of God is a universal body whose true home is heaven. Prophecy can't be true because it would make a worldly story about a particular lineage important. Also, the Jews are bad." Of course, the preterist will not use these exact words, but it is the final result of this thinking.

Gospefer quoted:
This position has tremendous support in prophecy

...or it doesn't. The person quoted has used the term "prophecy" again as though it was something we go into directly and apply directly to today without consulting the NT. Rom 11 is certainly no sure deal about our future in the plain reading of it; when Paul says saved he meant what Isaiah meant: the debt of sin was dealt with in Christ.

Gospelfer's summary line above is worthless to me. The ethnos are in deed no longer important in the sense of God dealing with one differently from another; that's also what Rom 11 says. It is not 'because the Jews are bad' that's also in Rom 11. The 'bound' to sin in Rom 11 is that all men have zero credit in their accounts, and must find mercy only in God through Christ. If someone is therefore saying that Jews are bad, it is because all men are, and he must have been hearing that Jews were chosen people. People are "chosen" only in Christ.
 
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gospelfer

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Gospefer quoted:
This position has tremendous support in prophecy

...or it doesn't. The person quoted has used the term "prophecy" again as though it was something we go into directly and apply directly to today without consulting the NT. Rom 11 is certainly no sure deal about our future in the plain reading of it; when Paul says saved he meant what Isaiah meant: the debt of sin was dealt with in Christ.

Gospelfer's summary line above is worthless to me. The ethnos are in deed no longer important in the sense of God dealing with one differently from another; that's also what Rom 11 says. It is not 'because the Jews are bad' that's also in Rom 11. The 'bound' to sin in Rom 11 is that all men have zero credit in their accounts, and must find mercy only in God through Christ. If someone is therefore saying that Jews are bad, it is because all men are, and he must have been hearing that Jews were chosen people. People are "chosen" only in Christ.


1. Notice the false and persistent preterist pretense that futurists believe that God deals with the Jews differently from the rest of mankind.
2. Notice the false and persistent preterist pretense that the future prophecized for Israel somehow contradicts the teaching of the NT.
3. Notice how a preterist can read through Romans 11, pulling out what he wants, namely the universal applicability of the new covenant, but when it comes to Paul's:

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, ...

Paul simply goes missing. The preterist can't makes sense of this, and so he doesn't try; he simply pretends it doesn't exist. But Paul was clearly looking back at OT prophecy foretelling national Israel's return. The preterists discards Paul, and discards the prophecies Paul was looking at. It is the sign of preterism's error.
 
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Interplanner

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1. Notice the false and persistent preterist pretense that futurists believe that God deals with the Jews differently from the rest of mankind.
2. Notice the false and persistent preterist pretense that the future prophecized for Israel somehow contradicts the teaching of the NT.
3. Notice how a preterist can read through Romans 11, pulling out what he wants, namely the universal applicability of the new covenant, but when it comes to Paul's:

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, ...

Paul simply goes missing. The preterist can't makes sense of this, and so he doesn't try; he simply pretends it doesn't exist. But Paul was clearly looking back at OT prophecy foretelling national Israel's return. The preterists discards Paul, and discards the prophecies Paul was looking at. It is the sign of preterism's error.


I didn't miss saved, I defined it. It is the solution to debt of sin. It is not the return to the land and Judaism. Paul used Isaiah historically there; it had occurred. The new covenant was in place; cp 2 Cor 3-5.

You prob haven't been here long enough to have hashed through the 'kai houtos' questions ("in this manner..."). You're at a disadvantage that way.

V30 is quite clear; there is no more dealing with ethnos anymore; all dealings are in Christ. This is consistent with the olive tree declarations. Neither natural nor wild nor grafted stand on their own; only by faith. Any of them can be lopped for lack of faith.

I do contradict futurism because it starts poorly, thinking that Mt24A is about the (our) future. Actually that's the whole problem. it is always looking at many places in the Bible thinking it is about our future, and skips how the NT quotes those same passages (2500 uses) and is all about us.

You may be wondering if there is a denial of a future day of judgement; no, but there are no Judaic parts to it. There are none in the plain language chapters like 2 Pet 3 about the future, and none in Rev 20+.

Rom 9-11 is simply finishing what 3:3 originally asked: why don't more Jews 'automatically' believe. The answer is that faith is not automatic from ethnos or miracles or descendancy etc.
 
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duolos

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I do contradict futurism because it starts poorly, thinking that Mt24A is about the (our) future. Actually that's the whole problem. it is always looking at many places in the Bible thinking it is about our future, and skips how the NT quotes those same passages (2500 uses) and is all about us.
I feel it might be beneficial for me to read more of Beale's Commentary on the New Testament's use of the Old Testament
 
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Interplanner

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I feel it might be beneficial for me to read more of Beale's Commentary on the New Testament's use of the Old Testament

wow thanks for mentioning that. What year? The closest other books I know of are Bruces' Old Testment Themes, Motifs and Images in the NT, and Longennecker Biblical Exegesis in the Apostolic Period, and they are both back there a few decades. All this is apart from the writers at Present Truth, and later Verdict, of course.
 
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duolos

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wow thanks for mentioning that. What year? The closest other books I know of are Bruces' Old Testment Themes, Motifs and Images in the NT, and Longennecker Biblical Exegesis in the Apostolic Period, and they are both back there a few decades. All this is apart from the writers at Present Truth, and later Verdict, of course.
2007; http://amzn.com/0801026938
 
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A New World

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1. Notice the false and persistent preterist pretense that futurists believe that God deals with the Jews differently from the rest of mankind.
2. Notice the false and persistent preterist pretense that the future prophecized for Israel somehow contradicts the teaching of the NT.
3. Notice how a preterist can read through Romans 11, pulling out what he wants, namely the universal applicability of the new covenant, but when it comes to Paul's:

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, ...

Paul simply goes missing. The preterist can't makes sense of this, and so he doesn't try; he simply pretends it doesn't exist. But Paul was clearly looking back at OT prophecy foretelling national Israel's return. The preterists discards Paul, and discards the prophecies Paul was looking at. It is the sign of preterism's error.

Yes, Paul did write: ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED (Rom. 11:26)
But, he wasn't contradicting what he had written previously: ONLY A REMNANT OF THEM WILL BE SAVED (Rom. 9:27)

I believe ALL ISRAEL referred to the remnant being saved in THESE last days (Heb. 1:1-2). The saved remnant were called firstfruits (Rom. 8:23; James 1:18; Rev. 14:3-4). The end of that age came in AD 70.

How do you reconcile the two statements (Rom. 9:27 & 11:26)?
 
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gospelfer

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Yes, Paul did write: ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED (Rom. 11:26)
How do you reconcile the two statements (Rom. 9:27 & 11:26)?

In 9:27 Paul is speaking of his own present, of Israel's failure to accept the Messiah, even as gentiles were accepting him. Everything
around 9:27 indicates the present.

In 11:26 Paul is looking forward to the time (the fullness of the gentiles) when Israel will accept the Messiah.

Seems perfectly straightforward. It even agrees with prophecy, too! I suggest a careful read through Deut 28-30, and 4, where Moses divides Israel's history into 3 generations (or ages), "blessing", "curse" (subjection, then a long, suffering, wandering, homeless exile), and "return". It shows that both Israel's disastrous failure and its final return were foreseen from the beginning.
 
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Straightshot

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"ONLY A REMNANT OF THEM WILL BE SAVED"


This is true according to Zechariah 13:8-9 .... 1/3 will survive the time of Jacob's trouble [those who will be come believers during the period]

The balance of the unbelieving will be killed during the same and lost forever

Paul speaks of the 1/3 when he says "all of Israel" he knew that unbelievers of Israel are not saved
 
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A New World

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In 9:27 Paul is speaking of his own present, of Israel's failure to accept the Messiah, even as gentiles were accepting him. Everything around 9:27 indicates the present.

In 11:26 Paul is looking forward to the time (the fullness of the gentiles) when Israel will accept the Messiah.

Seems perfectly straightforward. It even agrees with prophecy, too! I suggest a careful read through Deut 28-30, and 4, where Moses divides Israel's history into 3 generations (or ages), "blessing", "curse" (subjection, then a long, suffering, wandering, homeless exile), and "return". It shows that both Israel's disastrous failure and its final return were foreseen from the beginning.

I, of course, believe all of Romans was written from a perspective that they were the last days generation. Paul told them they knew the time, salvation was near, the night was almost gone and the day was near (Rom. 13:11-12).

I read Deuteronomy 28-30 but I didn't stop there. The context was Israel as a covenant people. The time frame was one age, the Mosaic age. Deut. 31:29 Moses told Israel of her latter days which the NT writers said had arrived in their day. Deut. 32:5,20 Moses said latter days Israel would be a crooked, perverse, and faithless generation.

Jesus identified His contemporary generation as faithless and perverse: "Then Jesus answered and said, "O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him here to Me" (Mt. 17:17)

Peter said this of the same generation: "And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation" (Acts 2:40)

Paul wrote: "that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world" (Phil. 2:15)

The NT was written during Old Covenant Israel's last days. That generation was a transition period between the old and the new, the Mosaic and the Messianic. That age came to its final end in AD 70.
 
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Interplanner

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The saving is not defined as being in the land and under Judaism. it is about justification by faith, which Paul never "leaves" in Romans. The "Israel" of 11:26 is the one that exists by faith, not a secular entity or a nation or an ethnos. Likewise 9:6 where not all Israel is Israel. btw, he doesn't mean that the believing part is Israel, because in 9:24, "we" is both Jew and Gentile and anyone who believes the Gospel.
 
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gospelfer

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I read Deuteronomy 28-30 but I didn't stop there. The context was Israel as a covenant people. The time frame was one age, the Mosaic age. Deut. 31:29 Moses told Israel of her latter days which the NT writers said had arrived in their day. Deut. 32:5,20 Moses said latter days Israel would be a crooked, perverse, and faithless generation.

The NT was written during Old Covenant Israel's last days. That generation was a transition period between the old and the new, the Mosaic and the Messianic. That age came to its final end in AD 70.

As for what Paul says of the "fullness" of the gentiles, which precedes the saving of Israel, you simply ignore.

I'm not interested about Moses' context (he was not discussing Israel as a covenant people, but rather foretelling
their future history), but about what he said of Israel's curse:
1. It would start with an exile to a single nation, (28:33-42)
2. Israel would sink lower and lower, and the foreigner high and higher over him (43-44)
3. God would bring subsequent conquerors over Israel, which would eventual lead to total destruction. (48)
4. Israel totally destroyed (49-57)
5. Total exile (58-68). Of this total exile Moses asserts 7 facts:
-a. It would be to all nations of the earth (not one)
-b. Israel would be hated by all men. (as opposed to just Haman)
-c. It would be very long -- Egyptian in scale (not 70 years)
-d. It would be a wandering exile. (unlike Babylon)
-e. It would be a suffering exile. (unlike Babylon)
-f. Israel would effectively have no homeland. (unlike Babylon)
-g. It would come at the hands of a poeple of unfamiliar tongue (Latin is indo-european, unlike the semitic Babylonian language)

These predictions of Moses fit the Roman exile, not the Babylonian exile. Details, details, details!

Moses then goes on to say after this long exile, Israel would be returned to the land and to God's favor.

The problem with the preterist is that he simply ignores the actual content of prophecy.
 
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A New World

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As for what Paul says of the "fullness" of the gentiles, which precedes the saving of Israel, you simply ignore.

I'm not interested about Moses' context (he was not discussing Israel as a covenant people, but rather foretelling
their future history), but about what he said of Israel's curse:
1. It would start with an exile to a single nation, (28:33-42)
2. Israel would sink lower and lower, and the foreigner high and higher over him (43-44)
3. God would bring subsequent conquerors over Israel, which would eventual lead to total destruction. (48)
4. Israel totally destroyed (49-57)
5. Total exile (58-68). Of this total exile Moses asserts 7 facts:
-a. It would be to all nations of the earth (not one)
-b. Israel would be hated by all men. (as opposed to just Haman)
-c. It would be very long -- Egyptian in scale (not 70 years)
-d. It would be a wandering exile. (unlike Babylon)
-e. It would be a suffering exile. (unlike Babylon)
-f. Israel would effectively have no homeland. (unlike Babylon)
-g. It would come at the hands of a poeple of unfamiliar tongue (Latin is indo-european, unlike the semitic Babylonian language)

These predictions of Moses fit the Roman exile, not the Babylonian exile. Details, details, details!

Moses then goes on to say after this long exile, Israel would be returned to the land and to God's favor.

The problem with the preterist is that he simply ignores the actual content of prophecy.

Israel was conquered and exiled by the Assyrians in about 722 BC. All twelve tribes had been scattered when the NT was written according to Peter and James who both wrote to those of the Dispersion (1 Pet. 1:1; James 1:1). The remnant from all twelve tribes, the firsfruits, were being gathered into one body in the last days (Acts 2 & Eph. 2). This was the foundation of New Covenant Israel, the bride of Christ, the Church.

This was the terminal generation of whom Moses wrote in Deut. 31-32.

Compare the warning given to Israel for breaking her covenant with God to what John saw:
"If then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins" (Lev. 26:21)

"Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished" (Rev. 15:1)
 
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