Vatican to Recognize Palestinian State in New Treaty

Good.

I was very pleased to read this yesterday while CF was down. I agree with the Vatican 100% on this one. Recognition for the state of Palestine is long overdue.

Fish and Bread said:

I was very pleased to read this yesterday while CF was down. I agree with the Vatican 100% on this one. Recognition for the state of Palestine is long overdue.

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I agree with you.

This is indeed most welcome news. I just wish the Irish State would follow suit. I think its only a matter of time though...

A total disaster. Had to tell all my pro-Israeli friends how sorry I was yesterday.

Pope Francis must stop with this left-wing populism he's indulging in. He's not a member of parliament in Argentine. If he wanted to be a politician, he should have chosen that path instead.

Imperiuz said:

A total disaster. Had to tell all my pro-Israeli friends how sorry I was yesterday.

Pope Francis must stop with this left-wing populism he's indulging in. He's not a member of parliament in Argentine. If he wanted to be a politician, he should have chosen that path instead.

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Funny how people on your side of the fence had no problem with the right-wing politicking of prior Popes.

Imperiuz said:

A total disaster. Had to tell all my pro-Israeli friends how sorry I was yesterday.

Pope Francis must stop with this left-wing populism he's indulging in. He's not a member of parliament in Argentine. If he wanted to be a politician, he should have chosen that path instead.

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Pope Francis is Head of the Vatican State. Do you not recognise it's validity..?

You must be happy for your pro-Palestine friends though...

Fish and Bread said:

Funny how people on your side of the fence had no problem with the right-wing politicking of prior Popes.

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I don't recall Pope Benedict XVI or Pope John Paul II doing anything politically right wing.

If this move is politically left wing (it isn't) then there is much that previous Popes have done and said that is politically right or left wing. Of course, these Popes are not engaging in partisan politics but are acting as they should given the moral teachings of Christ's Church. This is good news for Palestinian Christians (and others) who are, like it or not, mistreated buy the government of Israel.

A prophecy: The word of the Lord concerning Israel.

The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares: 2 “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’

6 “On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.

Cool, I'm all for an inclusive Jerusalem remaining intact as I'm sure our Pope is also...

On one hand, even though Palestine's recognized leadership claims to renounce terror tactics I don't believe for a second that attacks on Israel will end once Palestine is made legitimate. If anything now it'll become harder too counter attack since they'll be dealing with another nation rather than just a Palestinian ghetto. On the other hand, Israel has proven time and time again that their ideal situation would be too drive off the Palestinians either out of country or into small reservations; pretty much like the USA did for the Native Americans. If Israel has their way they continue to build Jewish settlements in Palestinian lands using force to drive any natives away.

If Palestine becomes legitimate then they better make sure to never tolerate terrorists operating in their lands. I know if I was Israel and Palestine became a nation that supported terrorists against me, I'd conquer them as one nation does too another and drive out all those terrorist sympathizers out. Finally be rid of this thorn in Israel's paw.

So the ball is in Palestine's court once they become a nation, play nice or die. At least that's what I'd do.

FlaviusAetius said:

On one hand, even though Palestine's recognized leadership claims to renounce terror tactics I don't believe for a second that attacks on Israel will end once Palestine is made legitimate. If anything now it'll become harder too counter attack since they'll be dealing with another nation rather than just a Palestinian ghetto. On the other hand, Israel has proven time and time again that their ideal situation would be too drive off the Palestinians either out of country or into small reservations; pretty much like the USA did for the Native Americans. If Israel has their way they continue to build Jewish settlements in Palestinian lands using force to drive any natives away.

If Palestine becomes legitimate then they better make sure to never tolerate terrorists operating in their lands. I know if I was Israel and Palestine became a nation that supported terrorists against me, I'd conquer them as one nation does too another and drive out all those terrorist sympathizers out. Finally be rid of this thorn in Israel's paw.

So the ball is in Palestine's court once they become a nation, play nice or die. At least that's what I'd do.

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Israel is full of Palestinians who have lived in peace. The "Palestinians" are used by Iran and other nations and nation states as thorn in Israels side. The idea is to attack from without and within. The "Palestinians" have broken every treaty they signed and now things are getting even worse for Israel. They are now dealing with fanatical Islamic groups that are surrounding her.
The Iranians who pump millions into terror Ops carried out by various groups could easily help alleviate the "Palestinians poverty. But that would defeat the purpose.

as Americans, or members of any modern democracy
we say that a Government gains legitimacy through the consent of the Governed
is this not a core belief in modern politics?

well the Palestinian people, not 100% because that is never how this term was used when speaking of peoples but something we can call a sizable faction of the Palestinian people, have not given consent to be governed to Israel
they have set up their own political and social system
they are a State
and it is hypocritical for the US to refuse to recognize that

demanding that they jump through hoops to gain recognition makes it seem like the right to have a Government of the people, by the people, and for the people is more of a privilege

remember during our own revolution from England, the Kingdom of France recognized the USA even though we had some serious internal problems and only about 1/3 wanted to separate from England

Imperiuz said:

A total disaster. Had to tell all my pro-Israeli friends how sorry I was yesterday.

Pope Francis must stop with this left-wing populism he's indulging in. He's not a member of parliament in Argentine. If he wanted to be a politician, he should have chosen that path instead.

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Totally agree. The Pope/Vatican are simply aiding and abetting an illegitimate attempt to make a Palestinian State, when it is clear that Abbas and the corrupt PA will not negotiate with Israel, or recognize Israels right to her historic Homeland. In a very real way the Vatican is aligning itself with the enemies of Israel, just when there seemed to be a degree of healing between Israel and the terrible things Catholicism fostered upon the Jewish people down through the centuries.

Rhamiel said:

as Americans, or members of any modern democracy
we say that a Government gains legitimacy through the consent of the Governed
is this not a core belief in modern politics?

well the Palestinian people, not 100% because that is never how this term was used when speaking of peoples but something we can call a sizable faction of the Palestinian people, have not given consent to be governed to Israel
they have set up their own political and social system
they are a State
and it is hypocritical for the US to refuse to recognize that

demanding that they jump through hoops to gain recognition makes it seem like the right to have a Government of the people, by the people, and for the people is more of a privilege

remember during our own revolution from England, the Kingdom of France recognized the USA even though we had some serious internal problems and only about 1/3 wanted to separate from England

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Well said. For a century or so after France took a chance on us, we were a questionable bunch of misfits, grabbing land where power vacuums existed, but in time we really made something special and proved that self-governance was a viable route even for the unprepared and random. It was one of the greatest, perhaps the greatest, political experiments and gambles of all time.

I am continuously surprised (I shouldn't be, I know) to read posts in a Catholic forum that seem to equate the modern transient nation-state of Israel with the Israel prophesied in the Bible...

Zeek said:

or recognize Israels right to her historic Homeland

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If you listen to Netanyahu talk, he's always careful to say that the Palestinians won't recognize Israel as a Jewish state, or that they won't recognize "the Jewish state". Why that precise choice of words? It's because the Palestinian government does recognize Israel, it just will not specifically recognize or affirm it's *Jewish identity*, because it is concerned about the political and human rights of the Arab Muslims and Christians who are within Israel's pre-1948 and pre-1967 borders. Even if the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are recognized as one or two independent Palestinian states, and even if they get the Arab parts of Jersualem, there will still be some Arabs instead the Israeli state that remains. Though the Palestinians do not claim certain areas in which an Arab minority resides, they are concerned about simply signing off on Israel as a Jewish state and the effect it will have on the non-Jews who have lived there for hundreds or thousands of years. I don't think they have any problem with recognizing Israel as a secular democracy in which Arabs who are not Jewish have equal rights, provided that Israel allows the occupied territories and the Arab parts of Jerusalem independence. So, it's really not what it seems.

Also, if you leave somewhere for 2,000 years, as most Jews did, it's entirely possible that when you get back there are going to be people living there with deep roots who have claims that are just as legitimate as yours if not more so. Even the early leaders of the modern Jewish state recognized the need for a two-state solution, and they didn't occupy the territory taken in the later wars, which is most of the territory under dispute. Netanyahu and the Likud Party are dangerous extremists who are breaking from established negotiating positions and have no interest in peace on any realistic terms. It's long past time for the US to cease military and intelligence aid and cooperation to Israel until they return to approach of Rabin and Peres. I think that starts with Israel announcing that no new settlements will ever be built in the occupied territories and recognizing the West Bank as an independent nation. If they can't do those things, they're on their own. I am not saying we need to impose sanctions or go to war with them or anything, but let them fund their own iron dome and bomb refugees in schools designed as refugee areas by the United Nations with their own missiles on their own and deal with any consequences or counter attacks that might come from those attacks on their own.

I don't think we should be a part of this situation as it stands today. Declare neutrality and say we will be happy to serve as a mediator for negotiations, but we are going to cease all military aid and cooperation with Israel, just as we do not offer Palestine military aid or cooperation. Also, just as we recognize Israel as a nation, so too should be follow in the Vatican's footsteps and recognize Palestine. That's real neutrality, and I think that is the position to which we should move until Israel elects a government ready to be realistic about a two-state solution and to stop provocations like new settlements in the occupied territories or lobbying missiles at civilian refugees.

Long overdue.

Patrick Bateman said:

Long overdue.

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actually
this is old news
http://www.cruxnow.com/church/2015/05/13/no-novelty-in-vatican-reference-to-state-of-palestine/

this terminology was first used in November 2012 under Pope Benedict XVI
and even before that, the Vatican was sympathetic to the Palestinian cause