Mary's virginity

ContraMundum · May 8, 2015

Lulav said:
If you believe in the correct translation of Isaiah 7:14 meaning a young woman, which Miriam seems to have been and read Luke with that in mind.......

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Now here it is again annotated.

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon (epi=to) thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow (episkiazó= see below) thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called (future tense) the Son of God.

Now does this mean that the Holy Spirit impregnated her? Or does it mean that she was set apart (what holy means) for this?

Elizabeth, John's mother was also visited by an angel (Zackarias was) the spirit within that babe was set apart too.

****episkiazó =translated overshadowed, this is used in other places

At the transfiguration

In Luke, Matthew : And as these were leaving Him, Peter said to Jesus, "Master, it is good for us to be here; let us make three tabernacles: one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah "-- not realizing what he was saying. 34 While he was saying this, a cloud formed and began to overshadow them; and they were afraid as they entered the cloud.

In Acts 5 As a result, people brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least Peters shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by.

Psalm 2
I will declare the decree: the L-RD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Paul wrote to the Romans and prefaced it with:

Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh,

Luke 1 introduction:

Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth, 27 to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David;

It was Joseph who was of the house of David, not Mary.

Luke 2 And everyone was on his way to register for the census, each to his own city. 4 Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and family of David, 5 in order to register along with Mary, who was engaged to him, and was with child.

The writer of Hebrews 1 wrote

For to which of the angels did God ever say,You are my Son;
today I have become your Father ?

Or again,
I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son

You're doing it again, Lulav. *sigh*

visionary · May 8, 2015

ContraMundum said:
You're doing it again, Lulav. *sigh*

Look the other way without out comment would be appreciated.

Open Heart · May 8, 2015

pat34lee said:
That is a Catholic forum. I don't think we could debate Mary there any more than arguing against the Trinity or Torah here. It is too late to start anyway, but if you have time to read, the information in the following article will be part of any discussion.
Constantine, Origin Of Sun Worship, Trinity, Babylon & Sunday

Oh, you are right. Sorry about that. The right forum for discussion would be the Mariology and Hagiography forum in the General Theology section at http://www.christianforums.com/f726/ . You can get as feisty there as you want.

Please be careful with internet sites. They are not always accurate. Right now there is a plethora of sites (even books) out about Constantine and the urban myths that he started the Catholic church, that he controlled Nicea, that he changed the Sabbath to Sunday, even that he made Christianity the state religion. All of these are distortions. If you pick up any regular history book on the church, you will learn the truth.

Constantine was heavily influenced by Christianity, but the truth was he remained a pagan until just before his death. His primary concern was running the empire and uniting it. The first written reference to the Catholic church.was in 108 AD by Ignatius, centuries before Constantine. He was a guest at Nicea with no power as he was not a bishop. He declared Sunday a national day as much for pagans as for Christians. And he legalized Christianity and stopped the persecutions -- he did not make it the state religion (that honor belongs to Theodosius).

Albion · May 8, 2015

Open Heart said:
Constantine was heavily influenced by Christianity, but the truth was he remained a pagan until just before his death.

People often suspect this--mainly because of incidental details about his life--but I don't think we have any reason to conclude that he was a pagan rather than a Christian "until just before his death."

visionary · May 8, 2015

Albion said:
People often suspect this--mainly because of incidental details about his life--but I don't think we have any reason to conclude that he was a pagan rather than a Christian "until just before his death."

Constantine was not heavily influenced by Messianic Judaism of its day, since he was blatantly anti-.

ContraMundum · May 8, 2015

visionary said:
Constantine was not heavily influenced by Messianic Judaism of its day

Who was?

Open Heart · May 8, 2015

Albion said:
People often suspect this--mainly because of incidental details about his life--but I don't think we have any reason to conclude that he was a pagan rather than a Christian "until just before his death."

He was not baptized until just before his death. Again, there was a strong Christian influence in his life, but he did NOT convert and remained pagan until just before he died. This is undisputed. What is arguable is why. I am of the opinion that he believed he could not function well as an emperor as a baptized Christian.

Lulav · May 8, 2015

ContraMundum said:
You're doing it again, Lulav. *sigh*

What, quoting scripture? Not understanding what the word almah means? :scratch:

Lulav · May 8, 2015

I have come to the conclusion that people believe what they are capable of believing and that G-d will sort it out in the end.

Daughter of Ararat · May 8, 2015

Open Heart said:
Did you think that "Orthodox" referred to Orthodox Judaism? It doesn't. It refers to Eastern Orthodox.

Was this to me? I knew it was Orthodox Christian, and trying to comment on Jewish tradition.

Albion · May 8, 2015

Open Heart said:
He was not baptized until just before his death.

That was a very common practice among Christians at the time. The belief was the no sins could be forgiven after baptism, so people postponed it as long as they could foresee. We think it strange today, but it wasn't at that time, and it was only "solved" when the church took the stand that, yes, sins committed after one's baptism can be absolved after all.

Again, there was a strong Christian influence in his life, but he did NOT convert and remained pagan until just before he died.

Not so. You were mistaken about the above matter, and although you didn't give us any specifics on this one, it appears to be another case of mistaking incidentals for a person remaining a pagan. One common point that people raise is that he continued to have his soldiers sport pagan emblems on their uniforms, etc. This, it has been said, shows that he was still a pagan. But that isn't the case.

Although we associate those symbols with a pagan origin, they were seen in their own time as patriotic emblems that signified the Roman Empire's heritage, just as we Christians have some symbols and holidays that Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, claim show a pagan orientation while we do not see them in that way at all.

he did NOT convert and remained pagan until just before he died. This is undisputed.

Well, apparently it is NOT undisputed, since most historians would tell you what I'm telling you here.

Open Heart · May 8, 2015

You are not a convert until you are baptized. I'll say no more on this particular subject.

visionary · May 8, 2015

Open Heart said:
You are not a convert until you are baptized. I'll say no more on this particular subject.

circumcised in heart... same goes for baptism of the heart

Albion · May 9, 2015

It would seem difficult to ignore water baptism as being the initiatory rite of entrance into the Christian faith and church, considering that it's plastered all over the New Testament and Jesus went through the act himself as an example to us.

visionary · May 9, 2015

Albion said:
It would seem difficult to ignore water baptism as being the initiatory rite of entrance into the Christian faith and church, considering that it's plastered all over the New Testament and Jesus went through the act himself as an example to us.

It seems like that the disconnect over mikvah and baptism has made people think that baptism is for Christians only and good for one thing..

Elihoenai · May 9, 2015

This is for those whose eyes have been anointed with eyesalve.

Luke 1:30-35 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

30 And the messenger said to her, `Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found favour with God;

31 and lo, thou shalt conceive in the womb, and shalt bring forth a son, and call his name Jesus;

32 he shall be great, and Son of the Highest he shall be called, and the Lord God shall give him the throne of David his father,

33 and he shall reign over the house of Jacob to the ages; and of his reign there shall be no end.'

34 And Mary said unto the messenger, `How shall this be, seeing a husband I do not know?'

35 And the messenger answering said to her, `The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also the holy-begotten thing shall be called Son of God;

John 14:15-17 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

15 `If ye love me, my commands keep,

16 and I will ask the Father, and another Comforter He will give to you, that he may remain with you -- to the age;

17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it doth not behold him, nor know him, and ye know him, because he doth remain with you, and shall be in you.

Matthew 1:24-25 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

24 And Joseph, having risen from the sleep, did as the messenger of the Lord directed him, and received his wife,

25 and did not know her till she brought forth her son -- the first-born, and he called his name Jesus.

Albion · May 9, 2015

It sounds very much as though you are proving the Virgin birth (of Jesus), but the topic is Mary as Ever-Virgin.

Lulav · May 9, 2015

You can't give birth and remain a virgin.

In Hebrew a virgin is a betulah, a young woman is an almah.

ContraMundum · May 9, 2015

Lulav said:
You can't give birth and remain a virgin.

Unless it's miraculous, obviously.

In Hebrew a virgin is a betulah, a young woman is an almah.

There you go again. Making an absolute statement when none exists. What's with this, Lulav? Betulah, like Almah, is ambiguous. Look it up.

Elihoenai · May 10, 2015

This is for those whose eyes have been anointed with eyesalve.

Matthew 1:19 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

19 and Joseph her husband being righteous, and not willing to make her an example, did wish privately to send her away.

Romans 10:3 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

3 for not knowing the righteousness of God, and their own righteousness seeking to establish, to the righteousness of God they did not submit.

1 Corinthians 11:12 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

12 for as the woman [is] of the man, so also the man [is] through the woman, and the all things [are] of God.

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