Is present Israel a fulfillment of prophesy?

gospelfer · May 4, 2015

Interplanner said:
How could you not see that the circumcises heart imagery is for anyone of any race that is a believer? That's all through Paul. So what "Moses and all the prophets" were saying was that the group of believers who were coming would be defined by faith, not by ethnos, which is what happened after the Gospel started to be spread.

Manifestly, this is not what Moses is saying. Moses clearly says that Jewish nation will only receive this circumcision of the heart with the beginning of the "return". Moses is addressing a nation; the "curse" he describes befalls the Jews, not the world. Likewise, the "return" befalls the Jews, not the world. In fact, the world has already received its "circumcised heart" -- the gospel, and it did so before the Jew. Moses is not describing spiritual distinction amongst believers, but the future history of Abraham's descendents. The Jew will be blessed, the Jew will be cursed, the Jew will return. We can be certain this is so because the people who "return" to receive a circumcised heart are the cursed, scattered people -- Moses describes the returnees thus in the "return". The matter is quite simple -- there is no room for escape.

Zeek · May 8, 2015

Very well put gospelfer...I understand that all of us at times embrace areas of belief that actually obscure the plain truth of scripture from us, sometimes due to immaturity, sometimes from wrong teaching and sometimes just due to vestiges of bias/prejudice lurking in us...all of which are remedied by a 'renewing of the mind'.

This is the only way I can explain the way in which many Christians poo poo the 'open miracle' of present day Israel, and would have us believe this is all fake, it isn't their land, they haven't repented...and even they are not really Jews...the justification for not believing the prophets and the physical historical evidence is almost endless.

ThatTrueLight · May 8, 2015

Zeek said:
This is the only way I can explain the way in which many Christians poo poo the 'open miracle' of present day Israel, and would have us believe this is all fake, it isn't their land, they haven't repented...and even they are not really Jews...the justification for not believing the prophets and the physical historical evidence is almost endless.

Amen and

Zeek !

Straightshot · May 8, 2015

To the OP

No .... the current setting in the Middle East is only a stage setting of what is to come

Israel must be there and surrounded by the nation's virulent enemies .... this condition exists, but the actual events recorded in the prophecies have not yet materialized .... still to come

When the events do begin the projections of the same will come to pass exactly as recorded 100%

All of the same will occur during the 70th week decreed for Israel .... same as the coming time of Jacob's trouble and the Lord's period of His hour [time] of trial and judgment

The purpose for Israel; to pressure them into accepting Him as their Messiah and King [Jeremiah 30] .... Israel is currently in blindness and unbelief

For the balance of the nations; to punish them for their intransigence against Him [Psalms 2; Revelation 6:12-17]

When will this time frame begin ? .... no one knows .... the dating has not been revealed in scripture

Watch the existing condition of the Muslim presence and how this factional quagmire changes as it moves forward

.... but quite frankly, the Lord could intervene to set His "Day of the Lord" in motion before this day is over .... there is nothing left needed to prevent

BABerean2 · May 8, 2015

Biblewriter said:
The scriptures plainly present Judah (the Jews) already in the land (as is true today, after a lapse of almost two thousand years) when the "end times" period begins. But they also show these people there in a state of rebellion and unbelief. (Which is also the case today.)

The scriptures very plainly state the timing of the promised return of all Israel. And that is after the Lord comes "with fire, to render His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire." (Isaiah 66) That has not happened yet.

So your wholw argument is, as usual, simply flailing at the wind.

Christ returns with His angels in Flaming Fire.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

....................................................

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Are the passages above a New Testament version of the Old Testament passage below?

Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

Isa 66:21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Will there a be a national conversion at His Second Coming or will the choice to follow Him have to be made before He returns, as in the parable of the Bridegroom from Matthew chapter 25?

.

random person · May 8, 2015

parousia70 said:
I just felt that bared repeating.

Spot On RP.

It never ceases to amaze me how folks otherwise so particular about "literalism" are all too happy to simply assume, indeed in the complete absence of evidence, that the Modern day Multi ethnic secular democratic state of Israel is the reconstitution of the 1st century Mosaic Hebrew Theocracy that once stood on the same patch of dirt.

You ask them for evidence of such and all you get is "Just look, it's right in front of your face.. it just HAS to be"... in essence they believe that because it has the name Israel, that is MUST be the continuation of the Covenanted Nation of the OT, even if it bears zero resemblance to it's predecessor, not Politically, not Religiously, not even genetically.

Thank you, these Christian Zionists actually flock to Israel yearly believing they are witnessing evidence of the Arm of the Lord and they even have harassed the Palestinians, even despite the fact under Mosaic Covenant, it spoke of not mistreating aliens and strangers but treat them with judgment, equality, and fairness, that is just what the State Of Israel and CZs haven't done. They have broken the Mosaic Law.

However, what these people don't realize is the church is the New Jerusalem (2 Cor. 6:16, John 4:20-24) and God had sounded the trumpet in A.D. 70 in order to gather His dead and assemble the living into the churches:

The Greek word for "gather together" (Matt. 24:31, 1 Thess. 4:17) is "episunago" (#1997), actually means to "assemble together" and I will demonstrate it here:

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together (episunago #1997) his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:31

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together (episunago #1997), as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Heb. 10:25

Matt. 24:31, 1 Thess. 4:13-17, and Rev. 7:9, 10:7 all speak of the literal fulfillment of "the Feast of Trumpets", where Christ gathered dead from Hades and assembled the living into His church through messengers (aggelos #32) who preached the Gospels.

Matthew 24:31 parallels with Matt. 28:19 & Luke 24:47.

Matthew 24:31 is speaking about the literal fulfillment of the "Feast of Trumpets" which is the Great Commission.

Darby and Scofield had it all wrong, they butchered a text that had a very, very Jewish significance. It wasn't just put in there as some new revelation, it is the "Feast of Trumpets" in its final and literal fulfillment in A.D. 70.

We are being assembled together into New Jerusalem since the trumpet sounded in A.D. 70.

ThatTrueLight · May 8, 2015

I'm sure that the enemy would love to have men think and believe that it's all in the past.. he deceives many no doubt while being deceived himself.

random person · May 8, 2015

ThatTrueLight said:
I'm sure that the enemy would love to have men think and believe that it's all in the past.. he deceives many no doubt while being deceived himself.

I think he'd profit more from thinking it is in the future:

He prevails against the church IN THAT VERSION...

The church is taught and indoctrinated with loads of fearmongering and newspaper exegesis about how the sky is falling, the Antichrist, One World Govenment, and 200,000,000 Chinese crossing the Euphrates... while the church watches helplessly and haplessly... that God has to literally intervene and rescue the church from utter defeat and millions of beheadings...

whereas, in our version, he attempted to kill the church in its cradle and failed miserably.

Straightshot · May 8, 2015

"I'm sure that the enemy would love to have men think and believe that it's all in the past.. he deceives many no doubt while being deceived himself"

He does want what you say ..... the more he can deceive and take with him, the better [Revelation 12:12]

Satan is a fool thinking that he can usurp the Lord's position and authority [Revelation 20:10]

Straightshot · May 8, 2015

"I think he'd profit more from thinking it is in the future"

Satan is in the business of blinding unregenerate men and has been since the garden, and the earlier he can snooker a man into his lair the more effective

.... and he is all about capturing as many as possible not knowing when the Lord is going to intervene and change the game

So time is not on his side because his burning is near .... this fate he fears and runs from it thinking that he can win

ThatTrueLight · May 8, 2015

random person said:
whereas, in our version, he attempted to kill the church in its cradle and failed miserably.

You mean the lie that God destroyed Israel in AD70?

Obviously that's a lie because if the LORD did destroy them then they wouldn't be back in the land right now..

Evidently your destroying God can't keep them down either..

Much more the futile working of the god of this present evil world who can't stand them and wants to wipe them off the face of the earth.. but we all know that ain't gonna happen..

We know the story.. the enemy has no power against the simple truth... all he can do is deceive and continue to be deceived himself.

Straightshot · May 8, 2015

Ezekiel
30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

random person · May 8, 2015

ThatTrueLight said:
You mean the lie that God destroyed Israel in AD70?

Obviously that's a lie because if the LORD did destroy them then they wouldn't be back in the land right now..

Evidently your destroying God can't keep them down either..

Much more the futile working of the god of this present evil world who can't stand them and wants to wipe them off the face of the earth.. but we all know that ain't gonna happen..

We know the story.. the enemy has no power against the simple truth... all he can do is deceive and continue to be deceived himself.

No, its the lie that states the Jews are still chosen and still under the Mosaic Covenant - Col. 3:11, Eph. 2:14-16; Eph. 3:6; Heb. 8:7,13; 9:8; 10:9,11; 1 Cor. 15:56; 2 Cor. 3:7-13!

ThatTrueLight · May 8, 2015

random person said:
No, its the lie that states the Jews are still chosen and still under the Mosaic Covenant - Col. 3:11, Eph. 2:14-16; Eph. 3:6; Heb. 8:7,13; 9:8; 10:9,11; 1 Cor. 15:56; 2 Cor. 3:7-13!

Tell it to the King of the Jews, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and JACOB..

Straightshot · May 8, 2015

The Lord has spoken ..... all nations are going down .... only Israel will be left standing

Neither the devil or a pretertist can prevent this truth

random person · May 8, 2015

Straightshot said:
Ezekiel
30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

God did make a full end of Assyria, Babylon, and other nations that took Israel captive. These Empires never ever rose again, since the time they took Israel captive.

And guess what the Roman Empire suffered the same fate too. Fulfilling Dan. 2:44 & Dan. 7:13-14.

ThatTrueLight · May 8, 2015

This is why it would be nice to have a futurist only forum.. it is always.. always, always.. the pathetic nonsense of men who pretend to be partial preterists and who have believed the lie that the end was in AD70..

But hey, I understand the enemy knows that his time is short.. and so he must be working overtime with all his little deceived minions..

That too is a testimony to the simple truth.

Notrash · May 8, 2015

random person said:
God did make a full end of Assyria, Babylon, and other nations that took Israel captive. These Empires never ever rose again, since the time they took Israel captive.

And guess what the Roman Empire suffered the same fate too. Fulfilling Dan. 2:44 & Dan. 7:13-14.

But the seed of Abraham/Isasc/jacob; i.e. recievers os the seed of Jesus as God, being corrected out of Israel of the flesh or nation, continue and are growing in leaving the religiin & doctrine of Ireneous into his light.

random person · May 8, 2015

Straightshot said:
The Lord has spoken ..... all nations are going down .... only Israel will be left standing

Neither the devil or a pretertist can prevent this truth

You still don't get it:

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

Joel 2:32, fulfilled A.D. 30 to A.D. 70

And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.

Isaiah 62:2

And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord God shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

Isaiah 65:15

Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Hosea 1:10

And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

Hosea 2:23

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Matthew 21:43

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

1 Peter 2:9-10 (See Hosea 1:10;2:23)

And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Acts 11:26 (See Isa. 62:2; 65:15)

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Colossians 3:11

Straightshot · May 8, 2015

The preterist is a dreamer .... and when presented with the Lord's own word on a controversy .... the wiggling and squirming begins

Let's try this one:

Zechariah
12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

12:4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

12:5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.

12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Is present Israel a fulfillment of prophesy?

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