How do we support Israel and not support violence?

Shempster · Apr 27, 2015

If you watch only Fox news, they would have you believe that the Jews in Israel are humble, peaceful and only use force in self defense.

There is a ton of evidence that there is a huge amount of violence towards Palestinians and Muslims in general by the Israeli army.

We as Christians believe that we should support (or bless) Israel, but at the same time, we are compelled to live like Jesus and love all people...even our enemies.

So tell me: how do we support Israel and oppose the violence that is happening? Obviously, we are to pray for peace in Jerusalem, but I am looking at the bigger picture here.

Aryeh Jay · Apr 27, 2015

Shempster said:
If you watch only Fox news, they would have you believe that the Jews in Israel are humble, peaceful and only use force in self defense.

Yep, they sure are. I used to go there four to six times a year, now I dont. The best way to see how peaceful they are is to go yourself.

There is a ton of evidence that there is a huge amount of violence towards Palestinians and Muslims in general by the Israeli army.

Yes there is, and Israeli civilians too.

We as Christians believe that we should support (or bless) Israel, but at the same time, we are compelled to live like Jesus and love all people...even our enemies.

Do Christians believe they should support Israel or are they told they should support Israel?

So tell me: how do we support Israel and oppose the violence that is happening? Obviously, we are to pray for peace in Jerusalem, but I am looking at the bigger picture here.

The problem greatly exceeds the boundaries of Jerusalem.

football5680 · Apr 28, 2015

You cannot really trust the media when it comes to Israel. Western media will always downplay what Israel does and other sources will inflate it. When this happens you have to sift through both sources and try to find the consistencies.

It is not a Christian duty to support Israel so we should simply judge them like any other country. They are not a Christian country so they should not receive any special status because this is what allows them to do what they do without any consequences. If one of our other allies committed some atrocity then we would condemn the action but this doesn't happen with Israel. Israel somewhat operates in self-defense but it would not be our view of self-defense. They are basically just waiting on the enemy to give them an excuse to attack and when they do Israel will respond with excessive force. Historically this is a common thing to do during a war to instill fear in the people but it doesn't work when the people have nothing to lose.

Ana the Ist · Apr 28, 2015

We support Israel because they are a consistent ally in the middle east...something that we don't have in other middle eastern countries mainly because of how we treat them. That said...

I genuinely believe Israel has tried a peaceful, diplomatic approach to its neighbors several times in its history and it's failed every time. What exactly do Israel's detractors want Israel to do? How do you make peace with neighbours who refuse to recognize your right to exist?

It's a problem that Israel will continue to face until 1 of 2 things happen....

1. Israel's neighbors accept Israel's right to exist and cease all aggression.

2. Israel utterly destroys its neighbors.

The reason this conflict seems to never end is because of the way war changed post WW2. The international community has created a more "humane" standard of war that results in never ending conflict and never ending profits for arms manufacturers.

juvenissun · Apr 28, 2015

Shempster said:
If you watch only Fox news, they would have you believe that the Jews in Israel are humble, peaceful and only use force in self defense.

There is a ton of evidence that there is a huge amount of violence towards Palestinians and Muslims in general by the Israeli army.

We as Christians believe that we should support (or bless) Israel, but at the same time, we are compelled to live like Jesus and love all people...even our enemies.

So tell me: how do we support Israel and oppose the violence that is happening? Obviously, we are to pray for peace in Jerusalem, but I am looking at the bigger picture here.

You can not. People try to kill you, then you need to either run or kill him or be killed. We live in an evil world.

Albion · Apr 28, 2015

Shempster said:
If you watch only Fox news, they would have you believe that the Jews in Israel are humble, peaceful and only use force in self defense.

There is a ton of evidence that there is a huge amount of violence towards Palestinians and Muslims in general by the Israeli army.

We as Christians believe that we should support (or bless) Israel, but at the same time, we are compelled to live like Jesus and love all people...even our enemies.

So tell me: how do we support Israel and oppose the violence that is happening? Obviously, we are to pray for peace in Jerusalem, but I am looking at the bigger picture here.

We never apply those standards to other countries, so why is Israel the particular target, even though we know for a fact that its very existence is more tenuous than almost any other country?

The virulent opposition to the survival of Israel, which masquerades as a concern for the Palestinians, has become a hallmark of the extreme Left which knows that the destruction of Israel would mean (in addition to a bloodbath akin to the Holocaust) its replacement by a dictatorship on the same soil. That tells us more about what's going on than the excesses of the Israeli military when attempting to suppress terrorism.

True Scotsman · Apr 28, 2015

Shempster said:
If you watch only Fox news, they would have you believe that the Jews in Israel are humble, peaceful and only use force in self defense.

There is a ton of evidence that there is a huge amount of violence towards Palestinians and Muslims in general by the Israeli army.

We as Christians believe that we should support (or bless) Israel, but at the same time, we are compelled to live like Jesus and love all people...even our enemies.

So tell me: how do we support Israel and oppose the violence that is happening? Obviously, we are to pray for peace in Jerusalem, but I am looking at the bigger picture here.

Just answer two questions. If the Israelis disbanded their army and committed themselves to non-violence, what would happen?

If the Arabs laid down their weapons and disbanded their terrorist cells and committed themselves to non-violence, What would happen?

Be honest.

The Israelis are not the ones who are initiating force. They have ever been the defenders and they have a right to respond with overwhelming force if attacked. Innocent people will die but the responsibility for that rests squarely on the shoulders of the ones initiating the force, the Palestinians.

They should go all out and end this war. The only way to win a war is to crush the enemy so hard that they loose all interest in fighting ever again. Just like we did with the Germans and the Italians and the Japanese. Israel is a lone island of civilization, even if they are socialists, surrounded by a bunch of barbarians who would still be living in the stone ages if it were not for the west and our advancements which they use and at the same time curse us. The Palestinians deserve whatever the Israelis can dish out and I hope they do.

seekingsolace · Apr 28, 2015

I think the emphasis on helping Israel as people should be supporting those doing the works of Jewish evangelism and discipleship. Christian food banks provide for Holocaust survivors, orphanages, community centers and poor children, in both Jewish and Arab sectors. Charities that help to bring Jewish immigrants back to their homeland from persecution, particularly in the former soviet union etc. There are countless good causes there, just be careful to research beforehand, as often money given to some will go straight to those running out Christians.

People forget or overlook the massive persecution the Jewish people have suffered for so long, and still do. I see on a daily basis the antisemitism, especially among professing Christians. As a side note, I am not Jewish, or biased.

Romans 15:25-27
"But now I am going to Jerusalem to minister to the saints. For it pleased those from Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints who are in Jerusalem. It pleased them indeed, and they are their debtors. For if the Gentiles have been partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister to them in material things."

ananda · Apr 28, 2015

Is the State of Israel today the same as the Kingdom of Israel from the Bible?

Tree of Life · Apr 28, 2015

Shempster said:
If you watch only Fox news, they would have you believe that the Jews in Israel are humble, peaceful and only use force in self defense.

There is a ton of evidence that there is a huge amount of violence towards Palestinians and Muslims in general by the Israeli army.

We as Christians believe that we should support (or bless) Israel, but at the same time, we are compelled to live like Jesus and love all people...even our enemies.

So tell me: how do we support Israel and oppose the violence that is happening? Obviously, we are to pray for peace in Jerusalem, but I am looking at the bigger picture here.

Why do you feel that Christians are obliged to support Israel?

Shempster · Apr 28, 2015

Ana the Ist said:
We support Israel because they are a consistent ally in the middle east...something that we don't have in other middle eastern countries mainly because of how we treat them. That said...

I genuinely believe Israel has tried a peaceful, diplomatic approach to its neighbors several times in its history and it's failed every time. What exactly do Israel's detractors want Israel to do? How do you make peace with neighbours who refuse to recognize your right to exist?

Well, if you go back to 1948 when they returned to the land, they basically either shot or forced palestinians from their homes and lands. Ironically, thats what the British did to the American Indians - and we just don't go there, do we?
The oppression is still going on. Outside of the nightly US networks, there are plenty of hidden camera films out there. You just have to look them up and watch them.

I should explain where this is all coming from. I had watched very many videos taken in the streets of Isreal. The Hisidic Jews (the ones that follow Torah) live there and do not agree with the actions of their government. They resent the killing and persecution.
I also discovered that Billy Graham had said that the leading Zionist movement in Isreal was the exact group Jesus spoke about in Rev 3. He said they were those of the synagogue of Satan...those who claimed to be Jews, but are liars.

I realize this is a very very sensitive issue, so I do not want to get into any bad waters, but we also need to be aware.

football5680 · Apr 29, 2015

ananda said:
Is the State of Israel today the same as the Kingdom of Israel from the Bible?

It's not even close to being the same.

Ana the Ist · Apr 29, 2015

Shempster said:
Well, if you go back to 1948 when they returned to the land, they basically either shot or forced palestinians from their homes and lands. Ironically, thats what the British did to the American Indians - and we just don't go there, do we?
The oppression is still going on. Outside of the nightly US networks, there are plenty of hidden camera films out there. You just have to look them up and watch them.

I should explain where this is all coming from. I had watched very many videos taken in the streets of Isreal. The Hisidic Jews (the ones that follow Torah) live there and do not agree with the actions of their government. They resent the killing and persecution.
I also discovered that Billy Graham had said that the leading Zionist movement in Isreal was the exact group Jesus spoke about in Rev 3. He said they were those of the synagogue of Satan...those who claimed to be Jews, but are liars.

I realize this is a very very sensitive issue, so I do not want to get into any bad waters, but we also need to be aware.

You make it sound like the Jewish people just showed up one day and stole the land...you do realize that's not how it went down, right?

The land was part of the Ottoman empire and was basically given to the British by them. The British, according to recognized laws of that time, were able to do anything with it that they pleased. They decided to give it to the Jewish people who had survived the holocaust and persecution of WW2. The Palestinians who lived there challenged this action in the international community (I don't remember if it was the League of nations or the UN at that time) and the international community decided that the British had every right to do with the land as they wanted. It was all legal.

At this point the newly formed state of Israel decided that, in the interest of peace, they would seek a two state deal with the Palestinians who lived there and share what was legally Israel's. Do you know what the Palestinians did? They refused to share the land that wasn't even theirs, they refused peace, they declared war. They lost...and they've simply been trying to get it back ever since.

So let's not pretend like the Israelis just showed up one day and started butchering the natives. The Palestinians are just reaping what they've sowed.

DeepWater · May 5, 2015

I sometimes make my home in Israel.
This means ive lived there, for years.
And, all Israelis want is to have safety to live their lives in peace.
Same as you, same as anyone.

The Israeli army, is on guard, all the time, day and night.
The malls in Israel, are the same.......armed Israelis who are in the army walking around,
looking for body bombers who have slipped in from other middle eastern countries who want to blow up an entire mall to satisfy "Allah".
Israeli's cant even go to a Pizza Hut in Israel, without seeing the army walking around with guns trying to keep them alive.
You cant even go to the Temple, the City of David without seeing the Israeli army all over it trying to keep American Tourists and other Israeli's from being "body bombed" by some Allah worshiping fanatic.
So, in this environment, unfortunate things can happen, and they are going to continue to happen.

Zeek · May 8, 2015

ananda said:
Is the State of Israel today the same as the Kingdom of Israel from the Bible?

To find the answer to your question you need to see it from G-d's perspective otherwise you will probably give a fleshly answer.

Firstly G-d gave the physical land of Israel to AB, Is and Jacob as their perpetual earthly inheritance...unconditionally. Read about it in Genesis chap 11 onward. (some Christians will try to tell you they sinned and G-d took it away, or that now there are neither Jew nor Gentile etc...but let the Bible speak for itself and hopefully it will convict you of what the truth is.)

Secondly, G-d speaks in terms of the 'people' being Israel. That is to say He considers the nation/State of Israel to be the people of Israel, even when they are scattered among the nations. Jeremiah 31:-

35 Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The LORD of hosts is His name:

36If this fixed order departs
From before Me, declares the LORD,
Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation before Me forever.

37 Thus says the LORD,
If the heavens above can be measured
And the foundations of the earth searched out below,
Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel
For all that they have done, declares the LORD.

Thirdly, the Bible foretells through the prophets of the ingathering of the Jewish people, back to their land....not because of their good deeds, not because of any merits...but because G-d Himself decreed it for His Name's sake. Some Christians and Orthodox Jews will say present day Israel is not what was foretold, and that Israel has to repent, or Messiah has to come first or that when Israel was formed her leaders were not even religious...but Ezekiel 36 clarifies this and puts a little more detail into the broader picture, and you see that it is in the land (Israel) that G-d will deal with the people He chose to glorify His name among the nations.

football5680 · May 9, 2015

Zeek said:
To find the answer to your question you need to see it from G-d's perspective otherwise you will probably give a fleshly answer.

Firstly G-d gave the physical land of Israel to AB, Is and Jacob as their perpetual earthly inheritance...unconditionally. Read about it in Genesis chap 11 onward. (some Christians will try to tell you they sinned and G-d took it away, or that now there are neither Jew nor Gentile etc...but let the Bible speak for itself and hopefully it will convict you of what the truth is.)

Secondly, G-d speaks in terms of the 'people' being Israel. That is to say He considers the nation/State of Israel to be the people of Israel, even when they are scattered among the nations. Jeremiah 31:-

35 Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The LORD of hosts is His name:

36If this fixed order departs
From before Me, declares the LORD,
Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation before Me forever.

37 Thus says the LORD,
If the heavens above can be measured
And the foundations of the earth searched out below,
Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel
For all that they have done, declares the LORD.

Thirdly, the Bible foretells through the prophets of the ingathering of the Jewish people, back to their land....not because of their good deeds, not because of any merits...but because G-d Himself decreed it for His Name's sake. Some Christians and Orthodox Jews will say present day Israel is not what was foretold, and that Israel has to repent, or Messiah has to come first or that when Israel was formed her leaders were not even religious...but Ezekiel 36 clarifies this and puts a little more detail into the broader picture, and you see that it is in the land (Israel) that G-d will deal with the people He chose to glorify His name among the nations.

What if the majority of people there were not the descendants of Jacob, they were simply the descendants of people who converted to Talmudic Judaism hundreds of years after Christ? Are people who have no connection to Abraham and who follow a Christ denying religion really the people of God? Even if they were descendants of Abraham, the Bible says this is irrelevant.

And do not presume to say to yourselves, We have Abraham as our father, for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. (Matthew 3:9)

GrowingSmaller · May 9, 2015

All I can try to do is live a peaceful life in my community. Live by example. Politics of the Middle East is soooo complex and tangled, it would take better than me to solve issues.

ananda · May 9, 2015

^ Zeek: None of that explains how that the "State of Israel" equals the "Kingdom of Israel" of Biblical history.

paul becke · May 9, 2015

Shempster said:
If you watch only Fox news, they would have you believe that the Jews in Israel are humble, peaceful and only use force in self defense.

There is a ton of evidence that there is a huge amount of violence towards Palestinians and Muslims in general by the Israeli army.

We as Christians believe that we should support (or bless) Israel, but at the same time, we are compelled to live like Jesus and love all people...even our enemies.

So tell me: how do we support Israel and oppose the violence that is happening? Obviously, we are to pray for peace in Jerusalem, but I am looking at the bigger picture here.

Are you? I don't think so. Listen to this man at the UN:

Why The UN BANNED This Video. - Israel Video Network

variant · May 9, 2015

You don't, but nearly everyone supports violence, as there are few true pacifists.

How do we support Israel and not support violence?

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