Israel & the Church. See the Difference?

random person said:

Yet, the death of the Messiah, occurred after the 69th week!

So what makes that... 69 1/4th week?

69 2/3th week?

69 1/2th week?

69 4/5th week?

No, it makes it the 70th week, sir!

Now what is it, was the 70th week partially fulfilled in A.D. 30 or is the 70th week stretched over a span of nearly 2,000 years long????

Is the 70th 2,000 years long and counting? Really?

Jesus died during the 70th week, which is immediately after the 69th week.

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RP, answer this question.

If Christ's death on the cross fulfilled Daniel's 70th week? Why did Jerusalem and the temple get destroyed 40 years later?

Oops! Looks like there's a loophole in your argument.

What now RP?

BABerean2 said:

Thousands of Jews all over the world, including the modern nation of Israel, are now coming to faith in Christ.

Descendants of all 12 tribes are being saved now.

It is happening now as it did in the first century, but you cannot see it.

God made an everlasting covenant that through the Seed of Abraham all of the nations of the world would be blessed.

Everlasting means forever, not 1,000 years.

Those Jews and Gentiles who are accepting Christ, are inheriting the New Jerusalem, not some dusty, sin cursed land in the Middle East.
Which would you rather have?

God keeps all of His promises.


Heb_11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


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Yeah well that's nice you are willing to say modern day Jews of all 12 tribes are coming to Christ 2000 years after the cross. Be great if you can link a youtube video of the other 10 tribes and where they are.

But unless you can prove descendants from all 12 tribes honored Christ in Jerusalem during the first century, Daniel's 70th week has not been fulfilled.

The house of Israel was not gather back in the first century. House of Judah was gathered some 500 years prior after their exile.

Jerico Miles said:

Yeah well that's nice you are willing to say modern day Jews of all 12 tribes are coming to Christ 2000 years after the cross. Be great if you can link a youtube video of the other 10 tribes and where they are.

But unless you can prove descendants from all 12 tribes honored Christ in Jerusalem during the first century, Daniel's 70th week has not been fulfilled.

The house of Israel was not gather back in the first century. House of Judah was gathered some 500 years prior after their exile.

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I beðieve many of the northern intermarried tri es believed before 70 AD and many more through the regathering from 70-135 AD. Snce the house of judah was decimated in 70 AD, the re-inhabitatiin from 70-135 would have had to come from jews and those dispersed through Assyrian conquest from all parts of the world as prophecied in Is 66;18-21; Is 11:11 ff etc.

In my perspective the 144,000 would have included gentile israelites who believed but did not come to Judea before 70 ad And perhaps gentile israelites who believed between 70 and 135 Ad.

Notrash said:

I beðieve many of the northern intermarried tri es believed before 70 AD and many more through the regathering from 70-135 AD. Snce the house of judah was decimated in 70 AD, the re-inhabitatiin from 70-135 would have had to come from jews and those dispersed through Assyrian conquest from all parts of the world as prophecied in Is 66;18-21; Is 11:11 ff etc.

In my perspective the 144,000 would have included gentile israelites who believed but did not come to Judea before 70 ad And perhaps gentile israelites who believed between 70 and 135 Ad.

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This still has to happen before it's completed. Both houses has to be in Jerusalem together.

Ezekiel 37:15-28 (KJV)
15 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,

16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:

17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Jerico Miles said:

Here's a better question. Why don't you get to the point and show us how Israel and the Church are one in the same?

After 2 weeks and 59 pages of avoiding this question using redundant head-games about answering another question of who him is in John 1 when the answer has already been given numerous times that it's God, you continue to avoid the original question with yet another sloppy question.

Prove Israel and the church are one in the same or don't post. Can you put up or shut up? Is this question simple enough?

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Try the below,should help.....

ISRAEL IS THE CHURCH (Trumpet Ministries, Inc. / Word of Righteousness)


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Israel has always been the Church

Jerico Miles said in post 622:

The house of Israel was not gather back in the first century.

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Actually, it was (Acts 2:36, Matthew 15:24, Matthew 10:6).

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Jews include individuals from all 12 of Israel's tribes, for there are no lost tribes, insofar as the 10 northern tribes weren't entirely lost to history. In 722 BC, the northern kingdom of Israel fell and its individuals were taken into captivity into Assyria (2 Kings 18:11), never to return to the land of Israel. They and their descendants were lost to history. But the 10 northern tribes in themselves weren't lost to history.

For some 200 years before the captivity of the northern kingdom, when it first become idolatrous, some individuals from all 10 of the northern tribes left the northern kingdom to become part of the southern kingdom of Judah (2 Chronicles 11:16-17), and so by definition they all became Jews. Also, some individuals from the 10 northern tribes remained in the land of Israel even after its defeat by Assyria, and some of them went to Judah at the time of Hezekiah (2 Chronicles 30). It is for these reasons that later the Jews who returned from the Babylonian Captivity could be referred to as "all Israel" (Ezra 2:70, Ezra 6:17, Ezra 8:25,35, Ezra 10:5, Nehemiah 7:73, Nehemiah 12:47), and why the Jews living in the 1st century AD could be referred to as including all 12 tribes (Acts 26:7, James 1:1, Acts 2:36,22), and why at that time Anna could be said to be of the northern tribe of Asher (Luke 2:36), one of the so-called "lost" tribes.

So the people alive today who are descended genetically from a 1st century AD Jew would include individuals from all 12 tribes. Some of these descendants could know they are Jews because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years kept their Jewish identity and didn't intermarry with Gentiles. But others of these descendants could know themselves only as Gentiles because their individual ancestors over the last 2,000 years eventually abandoned their Jewish identity and intermarried freely with Gentiles, to the point where their descendants alive today are almost entirely Gentile genetically. Similarly, regarding the individuals of the northern kingdom of Israel who were lost to history at its captivity: over the past 2,700 years, their descendants must have eventually abandoned their Israelite identity and freely intermarried with Gentiles, to the point where their descendants alive today would know themselves only as Gentiles, and would be almost entirely Gentile genetically.

Also, while God knows which people alive today are descended from one of the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel from whom the 12 genetic tribes arose (Genesis 49:28), nonelect Israelites/Jews aren't considered by God to be truly Israel (Romans 9:6-11) or truly Jews (Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9), or God's children or Abraham's children, but the children of the devil (John 8:39-47), just as all the nonelect, no matter whether they are Jews or Gentiles, are considered by God to be the children of the devil (Matthew 13:38-39).

Some genetic Israelites are believers, and so are members of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6) and Israel at the same time, just as, for example, the genetic Jew Paul the apostle (Acts 22:3) is a member of the church and Israel at the same time (Romans 11:1). And some still-living, non-believing genetic Israelites are still considered by God to be Israel insofar as they are elect (Romans 11:25,28). All the still-living, elect, non-believing genetic Israelites who don't become believers before Jesus' 2nd coming will become believers (and so will become members of the church: cf. Ephesians 4:4-6) at the 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), when they will see the returned Jesus in person (Zechariah 12:10-14). But even though all those still-living, elect, genetic Israelites will eventually become believers and be saved, they will be only a remnant of all genetic Israelites (Romans 9:27), most of whom will never be saved, just as most of humanity in general, both Jews and Gentiles, will never be saved (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14).

The gathering is up, out of the land as per hosea 1:10,11 & 2:23. The one head which was appointed and gathered under is shiloh of gen 49:1-10 (jesus). Any and everplace that it was prophecied that they would appoint one head or one king, it refers to Christ and the lordship & way of the indwelling truths & way he delivered.

Thus, in my mind the gathering of the two sticks was when the believers of the house of judah left judea and the mosaic covt land area and joined with israeli gentile believers up, out of the land as hosea says. The believers from judea fled to either pella in the decapolis or to the norther areas to be with the other believers.

That it was prophecied that hhey would gather in the land could also refer to the believers fellowshipping in judea but also to the regathering from 70-135 AD.

The prophecy of it being forever relates to new/everlasting covt ideas as it does elsewhere. Believers take the first century and prior occurances and stage of judea/jerusalem with them wherever they go.

This was also what I believe Paul was writing about to the thessalonians in!1 thess 4 & 2 thess 2 when mentioning the 'gathering together.

In this way, the gathering of the two sticks was fulfilled by joining under christ in the new civt which dissolved the seperation of the houses. Interestingly, it was 1000 yrs after the kingdom was divided after solomons death due to idolotry.

Jerico Miles said:

This still has to happen before it's completed. Both houses has to be in Jerusalem together.

Ezekiel 37:15-28 (KJV)
15 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,

16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:

17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

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Bible2

Jerico Miles said in post 622:

The house of Israel was not gather back in the first century.
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Actually, it was (Acts 2:36, Matthew 15:24, Matthew 10:6).

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Actually it was'nt

Simple question

Is there peace in Israel right now???

Ezekiel 37:16 "Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: Then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:"

Ezekiel 37:17 "And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand."


Ezekiel 37:18 "And when the children of thy People shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?"


Ezekiel 37:19 "Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine hand."


Ezekiel 37:21 "And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be one, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:"

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:"

Ezekiel 37:23 "Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions:"


Ezekiel 37:24 "And David My servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in My judgments, and observe My statutes, and do them."


Ezekiel 37:25 "And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and My servant David shall be their prince for ever."


Ezekiel 37:26 "Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore."

When did the above happen?

It has'nt.........And it won't,until the return of Christ

Notrash said:

The gathering is up, out of the land as per hosea 1:10,11

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Hosea 1:10-11
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered. And in the place where it was said to them, “You are not my people,” it shall be said to them, “Children of the living God.” 11 And the children of Judah and the children of Israel shall be gathered together, and they shall appoint for themselves one head. And they shall go up from the land, for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

If you can count them, currently 8.3 million Jews in Israel. Thus Hosea 1:10-11 is still future.

Israel?s Population Hits 8.3 Million on Eve of 2015 | Jewish & Israel News Algemeiner.com

Notrash said:

Thus, in my mind the gathering of the two sticks was when the believers of the house of judah left judea and the mosaic covt land area and joined with israeli gentile believers up, out of the land as hosea says. The believers from judea fled to either pella in the decapolis or to the norther areas to be with the other believers.

That it was prophecied that hhey would gather in the land could also refer to the believers fellowshipping in judea but also to the regathering from 70-135 AD.

In this way, the gathering of the two sticks was fulfilled by joining under christ in the new civt which dissolved the seperation of the houses. Interestingly, it was 1000 yrs after the kingdom was divided after solomons death due to idolotry.

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With the exception of the 70 years' Babylonian desolation/captivity, the Jewish people have lived without interruption in the Land of Israel as a nation until A.D. 70-135—ending a period of over seventeen hundred years. The Jewish population of Israel peaked at two and one-half million before the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 and the massive slaughter and expulsion of Jews for the Second Dispersion. † 15

If the Jews have a God-given right to the Land, why were the Jews expelled from the Land of Israel by the Romans? Why was the door to "Palestine," as renamed by the Romans, generally shut to Jews for so many centuries? Jesus gave the reason for this dispersion. Shortly after presenting himself to Israel as king (in fulfillment of Zechariah 10:9), he indicted Israel because they killed the prophets and failed to accept him. Jesus said, "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate" (Matthew 23:37).‡ 16 Similarly, Zechariah predicted that the LORD would render "double" (Hebrew mishneh, "an equal portion") because they did not turn to Jesus, their "stronghold." Israel would need to experience a period of disfavor equal to their period of favor from the Lord (Zechariah 10:12).

Regarding that equal portion of time in the disfavor of God, Jeremiah predicted that God's "recompense [for] their iniquity and their sin double" would be accomplished before the current massive regathering of the Jews to their Land (Jeremiah 16:14-18, especially vs. 18). The opening of the doors of the Land to the Jews can be pinpointed at 1878 when, by the diplomatic skill of Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli at the Berlin Congress of Nations, Britain was given a protectorate over Palestine. Disraeli had approached the Congress with the intention of achieving that control over Palestine fully expecting a mass immigration of Jews to reach "one million strong, speaking one language, and animated by one spirit to achieve autonomy and independence."17 This turn of events finally eased restrictions on Jewish immigration and land purchase in Palestine.

Also at this time, Jews established the first agricultural settlement— Petah Tikvah "Door of Hope"—in the ancient Land of their ancestors.18 Here the reclamation of the Land by Jewish immigrants began. 19 This regathering beginning in 1878 actually marked the first tangible sign of God's favor returning to the Jewish people.

Jeremiah prophesied that the Land would be restored to the Jews after it had become "desolate without man and without beast" (Jeremiah 33:10-16). Again, how do we know that this promise of restoration to the Land was not fulfilled with the return from Babylon? Jeremiah, after all, wrote before the 70 years' desolation. Vss. 15,16, predicted a permanent restoration that will culminate in the Messianic Age. "I will cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David. . .Jerusalem shall dwell safely." Jerusalem did not dwell "safely" after the temporary restoration from the 70 years' desolation/captivity. This permanent restoration was to occur after the Second Dispersion—which Jesus prophesied would be worldwide (Luke 21:24).

From A.D. 70 until the current regathering, God intended that the Land of Israel would become barren of man and beast. Why? The Land then could receive a mass influx of Jewish immigrants at the prophetic time. No nation would be able to establish itself in Palestine during the interim period. But here we are faced with a credibility gap between the Bible and the Arab Palestinian claim. The Bible speaks of a massive dispersion of Jews followed by centuries of a minimum of inhabitants until God's regathering of Jews back to their Land. However, the Arab Palestinians claim that from the conquest of the Land by the Arabs (A.D. 640-1099), a thriving Palestinian culture developed. Which of these two views of history do the facts affirm?

Notrash said:

In this way, the gathering of the two sticks was fulfilled by joining under christ in the new civt which dissolved the seperation of the houses. Interestingly, it was 1000 yrs after the kingdom was divided after solomons death due to idolotry.

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Ezekiel 37:15-28 (NCV)
15 The Lord spoke his word to me, saying, 16 “Human, take a stick and write on it, ‘For Judah and all the Israelites with him.’ Then take another stick and write on it, ‘The stick of Ephraim, for Joseph and all the Israelites with him.’ 17 Then join them together into one stick so they will be one in your hand.

18 “When your people say to you, ‘Explain to us what you mean by this,’ 19 say to them, ‘This is what the Lord God says: I will take the stick for Joseph and the tribes of Israel with him, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and I will put it with the stick of Judah. I will make them into one stick, and they will be one in my hand.’ 20 Hold the sticks on which you wrote these names in your hand so the people can see them. 21 Say to the people, ‘This is what the Lord God says: I am going to take the people of Israel from among the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. One king will rule all of them. They will never again be two nations; they will not be divided into two kingdoms anymore. 23 They will not continue to make themselves unclean by their idols, their statues of gods which I hate, or by their sins. I will save them from all the ways they sin and turn against me, and I will make them clean. Then they will be my people, and I will be their God.

24 “‘My servant David will be their king, and they will all have one shepherd. They will live by my rules and obey my laws. 25 They will live on the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land in which your ancestors lived. They will all live on the land forever: they, their children, and their grandchildren. David my servant will be their king forever. 26 I will make an agreement of peace with them, an agreement that continues forever. I will put them in their land and make them grow in number. Then I will put my Temple among them forever. 27 The place where I live will be with them. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 When my Temple is among them forever, the nations will know that I, the Lord, make Israel holy.’”

The Temple still haven't been rebuild yet, God has not yet establish a covenant with both houses as one, Israel is not at peace and the Israelites are still under the law.

Ezekiel 37 is still future.

Bible2 said:

Actually, it was (Acts 2:36, Matthew 15:24, Matthew 10:6).

Jews include individuals from all 12 of Israel's tribes, for there are no lost tribes, insofar as the 10 northern tribes weren't entirely lost to history.

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Understanding the history and the future of the descendants of Jacob is paramount to understanding the rest of the Bible. In particular, grasping what God says will happen to these people allows us to make sense of this world's seemingly incomprehensible events. "Where there is no vision, the people perish," as Proverbs 29:18 (KJV) notes. But God has given us a vision of where current events are leading, and what will soon happen to the nations of Israel that have been scattered around the globe.

Historically, after the death of Solomon (c. 931 bc), the Kingdom of Israel split into two separate kingdoms. The northern ten tribes retained the name Israel, establishing their capital at Samaria. The southern tribes—Judah and Benjamin, along with part of Levi—became known simply as Judah (and its people known as Jews; see II Kings 16:5-6, KJV), continuing to be ruled by the royal line of David from the capital city of Jerusalem.

Two hundred years after this national division, the northern ten tribes were in a terminal state of wickedness and rebellion. Idolatry was widespread, pagan religious practices from the surrounding cultures were common and celebrated, God's law was trampled underfoot, and God Himself was scoffed at—much as in today's Western culture. God's prophets, warning of Israel's destruction and subjugation, were invariably ignored, mocked, or killed.

Around 722 bc, God caused Assyria to subdue Israel and enslave the people. The Assyrians deported the population from its homeland in Canaan to the southern shores of the Caspian Sea in what is today Iran (II Kings 17:5-6). The northern Kingdom of Israel thus passed from the view of all but the most obscure histories, becoming known as the Lost Ten Tribes.

The Jews—the southern Kingdom of Judah—followed the same course shortly thereafter. With few exceptions, the kings of Judah proved more corrupt than Israel's kings. Israel set the pace into idolatry, and Judah enthusiastically followed (Ezekiel 16:45-52). As with Israel, God sent prophets to Judah to warn her of destruction if she failed to repent. She refused. Between 604 and 585 bc, the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar carried the population of Judah to Babylon (II Kings 24:14). Later, he totally destroyed Jerusalem, Temple and all, and "carried away captive the rest of the people" (II Kings 25:11).

Both kingdoms, having turned from their covenant with God, earned the penalty of national captivity.

Reverse Migration

After seventy years in Babylonian captivity, the Jews began returning to Canaan. Under Ezra and Nehemiah, the wall around Jerusalem was rebuilt, and the Temple was restored under Zerubbabel and Joshua. However, the northern ten tribes of Israel never returned. After a long sojourn in and around the areas of their captivity, they migrated north and west into the European continent, eventually spreading from there into the United States, Canada, South Africa, Australia, and New Zealand.

However, this migration of Israel will reverse in the days ahead. The Bible shows in many prophecies that a second exodus will occur, and God's people will return to the land promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

The first exodus, when God brought the children of Israel out from Egypt, is a defining event for both Israelites and Christians. Passover, the Days of Unleavened Bread, and even Pentecost all commemorate God's sovereignty, providence, and grace in liberating His people (see Deuteronomy 16:1-12). Yet, as remarkable as this spontaneous movement of millions of people from a plundered Egypt to a bountiful Canaan was, the Second Exodus will be so momentous that the original exodus from Egypt will pale by comparison:

"Therefore behold, the days are coming," says the Lord, "that it shall no more be said, 'The Lord lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,' but, 'The Lord lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north and from all the lands where He had driven them.' For I will bring them back into their land which I gave to their fathers." (Jeremiah 16:14-15; see also 23:7-8)

In Isaiah 11:11-12, the prophet also tells of this time when

the Lord shall set His hand again the second time to recover the remnant of His people who are left. . . . He will set up a banner for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

God tells Jeremiah, "In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given as an inheritance to your fathers" (Jeremiah 3:18).

During the first exodus, a few million Israelites left Egypt and headed for the land of Canaan, a relatively short distance away. Today, Israelites number in the hundreds of millions, and their current homelands are thousands of miles from Canaan. They cannot re-migrate to the Promised Land as a single group, for their movements have left them in numerous countries around the globe. Only the sovereign God can orchestrate such a regathering.

While some prophecies speak of Israel returning from every compass point (Isaiah 11:12; 43:5-7), Israel is most commonly foreseen returning from the north and the west (of the Promised Land) (Isaiah 49:12; Jeremiah 3:18; 16:15; 23:8; 31:8; Hosea 11:10; Zechariah 2:6), reversing the path of their migration thousands of years ago.

Regathered to Zion

The prophet Isaiah gives numerous descriptions of how this exodus will take place, such as the individual attention that will be given: "And it shall come to pass in that day . . . you will be gathered one by one, O you children of Israel" (Isaiah 27:12). He speaks of "a highway for the remnant of His people who will be left from Assyria, as it was for Israel In the day that he came up from the land of Egypt" (Isaiah 11:16). A similar road appears in Isaiah 35:8-10:

A highway shall be there, and a road, and it shall be called the Highway of Holiness. The unclean shall not pass over it, but it shall be for others. Whoever walks the road, although a fool, shall not go astray. No lion shall be there, nor shall any ravenous beast go up on it. . . . But the redeemed shall walk there, and the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with singing, with everlasting joy on their heads. They shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away. (see also Isaiah 43:16-21; 51:10-11)

Not all of Israel will be able to travel back via this Highway of Holiness, however. Isaiah 60:8-9 asks:

Who are these who fly like a cloud, and like doves to their roosts? Surely the coastlands shall wait for Me; and the ships of Tarshish will come first, to bring your sons from afar, their silver and their gold with them, to the name of the Lord your God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because He has glorified you.

Isaiah 66:20 describes this massive undertaking further:

"Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the Lord out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says the Lord, "as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord."

Jeremiah 30 and 31 give a broad overview of what God will do to bring back Israel and the rest of Judah, and restore the Promised Land to them. This was not fulfilled in the 1940s, when hundreds of thousands of Jews returned to their historical land and founded the modern State of Israel, for only Judah took part in that. The prophecies regarding the Second Exodus clearly speak of both Judah and Israel. Notice, for instance, Jeremiah 30:1-3:

The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, "Thus speaks the Lord God of Israel, saying: 'Write in a book for yourself all the words that I have spoken to you. For behold, the days are coming,' says the Lord, 'that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,' says the Lord. 'And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.'"(emphasis ours)

God refers to both kingdoms here—the descendants of the northern kingdom of Israel as well as the southern kingdom of Judah. The return of Israel will be the larger migration because, aside from the 70-year captivity in Babylon, some of the descendants of Judah have always resided in the Promised Land. Today, the State of Israel is predominately made up of the descendants of Judah.

However, neither Israel nor Judah has truly possessed the land since the time of their respective captivities. Despite some of Judah having returned to the land, ever since the Babylonian captivity, she has only rarely and intermittently held sovereignty over it.

After Judah was taken into captivity, Babylon ruled the Promised Land under Nebuchadnezzar. Babylon later fell to the Medo-Persian Empire, which then became sovereign over Jerusalem and the Promised Land. Because of their vassal status, the Jewish captives that returned from Babylon had to ask permission from Cyrus and Darius, the Persian kings, to rebuild the wall and the Temple. The Jews enjoyed a measure of peace, but their freedom depended on the favor of the ruling Persian emperor.

After Alexander the Great conquered Medo-Persia, the Greeks became the new overseers of the Land of Promise. Jews under the Maccabees gained a measure of independence until Rome took control of the area. Thus, during the time of Christ, Jews lived in the land and even worshipped in the Second Temple, but they did not really possess the land because it was under Roman jurisdiction. Since the collapse of the Roman Empire, notwithstanding some temporary Crusader holdings, the Promised Land has been under the sway of various Arab and Muslim nations—notably the Ottoman Empire—down to modern times.

Even now, the state of Israel does not control all of the land. Jerusalem is a divided city, and the Israelis have not dared claim all of the Temple Mount for themselves (even though they had the opportunity immediately following the Six Day War in 1967), because they know that it would result in an all-out war with the Muslims. Even though the Jews regained a considerable amount of land when it declared statehood in 1948, gaining even more during the Six Day War, the ownership is endlessly argued. Judah is not truly sovereign yet. It does not yet "possess" the land in the fullest sense of the word.

But first, Tribulation

Even though Israel and Judah will ultimately be restored to the land of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, they will first go through a time of tremendous tribulation and hardship:

For thus says the Lord: "We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask now, and see, whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins like a woman in labor, and all faces turned pale? Alas! For that day is great, so that none is like it; and it is the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it." (Jeremiah 30:5-7; emphasis ours)

This is what must happen before the Second Exodus. Notice that it is called "Jacob's Trouble," not either "Israel's Trouble" or "Judah's Trouble." Both houses will experience it. God causes Jacob's descendants to be greatly troubled because of their sins. This time of unprecedented crisis—"none is like it"—corresponds to the time of "great tribulation" of which Jesus Christ warns:

"Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. . . . For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened." (Matthew 24:15-16, 21-22; emphasis ours)

Luke's version of the Olivet Prophecy uses different language to describe the same time and events:

But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. . . . For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Luke 21:20-24; see Revelation 11:2; emphasis ours)

Just as Christ reassures us in Matthew 24:22 that this will not be the complete end of mankind, Jeremiah promises that Jacob will be saved out of his trouble. Even though that "day" is great, and like nothing we have seen before, it will not be the end of Jacob.

Jeremiah 30:5-7 does not detail why that time is one of tribulation. The only clue we have in these verses is that God compares it, not just to a woman in labor, but to a man in labor. This is certainly an unusual symbol, but the picture of the sorrows and pains of labor and childbirth elsewhere helps us to understand what it portends. For example, Isaiah 13:6-8 prophesies:

Wail, for the day of the Lord is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty. Therefore all hands will be limp, every man's heart will melt, and they will be afraid. Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them; they will be in pain as a woman in childbirth; they will be amazed at one another; their faces will be like flames.

A similar illustration appears in Isaiah 26:16-18:

Lord, in trouble they have visited You, they poured out a prayer when Your chastening was upon them. As a woman with child is in pain and cries out in her pangs, when she draws near the time of her delivery, so have we been in Your sight, O Lord. We have been with child, we have been in pain; we have, as it were, brought forth wind; we have not accomplished any deliverance in the earth, nor have the inhabitants of the world fallen.

Bible2 said:

Actually, it was (Acts 2:36, Matthew 15:24, Matthew 10:6).

Jews include individuals from all 12 of Israel's tribes, for there are no lost tribes, insofar as the 10 northern tribes weren't entirely lost to history.

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Paul also uses this symbol in I Thessalonians 5:1-3:

But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. (see also Isaiah 66:6-24; Jeremiah 4:31; 13:20-27; Hosea 13:12-16; Micah 4:9-10.)

Overall, the symbol is one of anguish, sorrow, intensity, great discomfort, and pain. The prophets contain scores of examples of God's anger at the sins of His people. It is with good reason that the prophecies mention that only a "remnant" will return: Even though the descendants of Jacob will ultimately be saved, the percentage of the current hundreds of millions of Israelites and Jews who survive that trouble will probably be small (see Isaiah 10:20-21).

However, how this illustration is applied is interesting. When it applies to God's enemies, the emphasis is clearly on the pain, anguish, sorrow, and fear of what is ahead (Jeremiah 49:20-24). But when it refers to Israel, as in Jeremiah 30, there is always hope that the pain will be turned to joy, just as with a physical birth (Isaiah 66:8-9). It is painful, but a tremendous blessing is promised to come when it is over (compare Jesus' use of this metaphor in John 16:21).

A hint of this hope appears in Jeremiah 30:7: "But he [Jacob] shall be saved out of it." The pain and the anguish will not end in total annihilation. Certainly, a dear price will be paid in human lives, but the peoples of Jacob will survive and be blessed—both physically and spiritually, as we will see.


The Second Exodus (Part One)

BABerean2 said:

The idea of National salvation is not scriptural.

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So where shall CHRIST sit upon the throne of His glory when He comes in His glory according to Matthew 25, New York?

Nope, maybe the city of the great King.

You couldn't have that though right, you're Israel and they're not, right.

Another perfect illustration of becoming wise in your own conceits.

Jerico Miles said:

Yeah well that's nice you are willing to say modern day Jews of all 12 tribes are coming to Christ 2000 years after the cross. Be great if you can link a youtube video of the other 10 tribes and where they are.

But unless you can prove descendants from all 12 tribes honored Christ in Jerusalem during the first century, Daniel's 70th week has not been fulfilled.

The house of Israel was not gather back in the first century. House of Judah was gathered some 500 years prior after their exile.

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Jas_1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.


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Jerico Miles said:

Ezekiel 37:15-28 (NCV)
15 The Lord spoke his word to me, saying, 16 “Human, take a stick and write on it, ‘For Judah and all the Israelites with him.’ Then take another stick and write on it, ‘The stick of Ephraim, for Joseph and all the Israelites with him.’ 17 Then join them together into one stick so they will be one in your hand.

18 “When your people say to you, ‘Explain to us what you mean by this,’ 19 say to them, ‘This is what the Lord God says: I will take the stick for Joseph and the tribes of Israel with him, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and I will put it with the stick of Judah. I will make them into one stick, and they will be one in my hand.’ 20 Hold the sticks on which you wrote these names in your hand so the people can see them. 21 Say to the people, ‘This is what the Lord God says: I am going to take the people of Israel from among the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. One king will rule all of them. They will never again be two nations; they will not be divided into two kingdoms anymore. 23 They will not continue to make themselves unclean by their idols, their statues of gods which I hate, or by their sins. I will save them from all the ways they sin and turn against me, and I will make them clean. Then they will be my people, and I will be their God.

24 “‘My servant David will be their king, and they will all have one shepherd. They will live by my rules and obey my laws. 25 They will live on the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land in which your ancestors lived. They will all live on the land forever: they, their children, and their grandchildren. David my servant will be their king forever. 26 I will make an agreement of peace with them, an agreement that continues forever. I will put them in their land and make them grow in number. Then I will put my Temple among them forever. 27 The place where I live will be with them. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 When my Temple is among them forever, the nations will know that I, the Lord, make Israel holy.’”

The Temple still haven't been rebuild yet, God has not yet establish a covenant with both houses as one, Israel is not at peace and the Israelites are still under the law.

Ezekiel 37 is still future.

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The word "Forever" means eternal.


Joh_2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
(The forever temple has been built.)

1Co_3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
(We are the temple of God.)

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
(Christ confirmed a New Covenant.)


Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
(The New Covenant has replaced the Old Covenant.)

Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. (He took away the first covenant to establish the second.)

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
(There is no need for renewed animal sacrifices. Christ was the ultimate sacrifice. He was God‘s one and only son.)


Luk_18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

A rebuilt manmade temple cannot be forever..

All of the Old Testament scriptures have been fulfilled in Christ.
All of the promises come through Him.


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


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Shout all you want.

"MY servant David" refers to Jesus and the new ordinances of the new covt. Truths, not rituals.

The temple of tge bew covt is the kife which embidies thise truths and new laws.

Ez 37 is first/secind century.

When the ebonites left judea, they fled to pella in @66/67 AD. When they returned they began meeting in the hiuse of the upper room which according to one souce had the burial chamber of David in its baaement.

prophecies in the OT which concern the time of the new covt (such as this one) are sometimes subjective to the new ways of life & freedom through that nww covt.

We'll remain in disagreement.

These prophecies were not made to humanity or to the institutiinal church. They were made to the people of the then divided kingdom while in captivity are are understood from the time and mindset of those people, though not fulfilled in their actual time.

Jerico Miles said:

Ezekiel 37:15-28 (NCV)
15 The Lord spoke his word to me, saying, 16 “Human, take a stick and write on it, ‘For Judah and all the Israelites with him.’ Then take another stick and write on it, ‘The stick of Ephraim, for Joseph and all the Israelites with him.’ 17 Then join them together into one stick so they will be one in your hand.

18 “When your people say to you, ‘Explain to us what you mean by this,’ 19 say to them, ‘This is what the Lord God says: I will take the stick for Joseph and the tribes of Israel with him, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and I will put it with the stick of Judah. I will make them into one stick, and they will be one in my hand.’ 20 Hold the sticksh on which you wrote these names in your hand so the people can see them. 21 Say to the people, ‘This is what the Lord God says: I am going to take the people of Israel from among the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. One king will rule all of them. They will never again be two nations; they will not be divided into two kingdoms anymore. 23 They will not continue to make themselves unclean by their idols, their statues of gods which I hate, or by their sins. I will save them from all the ways they sin and turn against me, and I will make them clean. Then they will be my people, and I will be their God.

24 “‘My servant David will be their king, and they will all have one shepherd. They will live by my rules and obey my laws. 25 They will live on the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land in which your ancestors lived. They will all live on the land forever: they, their children, and their grandchildren. David my servant will be their king forever. 26 I will make an agreement of peace with them, an agreement that continues forever. I will put them in their land and make them grow in number. Then I will put my Temple among them forever. 27 The place where I live will be with them. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 When my Temple is among them forever, the nations will know that I, the Lord, make Israel holy.’”

The Temple still haven't been rebuild yet, God has not yet establish a covenant with both houses as one, Israel is not at peace and the Israelites are still under the law.

Ezekiel 37 is still future.

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BABerean2 said in post 636:

Joh_2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
(The forever temple has been built.)

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The ultimate temple will be the Trinity itself on the new earth in the literal city of New Jerusalem, which contains no temple building (Revelation 21:22). Jesus' individual human body is already a temple of God (John 2:21), and at the time of his first coming, his body-temple coexisted with the 2nd temple building in Jerusalem, which was also indwelt by God at the same time (Matthew 23:21). And his body-temple also coexisted, and still coexists today, with the literal temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19). There is now also the church-as-a-whole figurative temple building (Ephesians 2:21), and the myriad different temples of every Christian's individual human body (1 Corinthian 6:19). There will also be a 3rd, earthly, literal temple building in Jerusalem during the future tribulation (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and also a 4th earthly, literal temple building in Jerusalem during the future millennium (Zechariah 14:20-21), which won't begin until after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

BABerean2 said:

The word "Forever" means eternal.

A rebuilt manmade temple cannot be forever..

All of the Old Testament scriptures have been fulfilled in Christ.
All of the promises come through Him.

Click to expand...

No BAB2.

Ezekiel 37 means the Temple will be rebuild and will never be destroy by man again.

And Christ's death on the cross does not mean you have a license to sin whenever you want.

Notrash said:

Shout all you want.

"MY servant David" refers to Jesus and the new ordinances of the new covt. Truths, not rituals.

The temple of tge bew covt is the kife which embidies thise truths and new laws.

Ez 37 is first/secind century.

When the ebonites left judea, they fled to pella in @66/67 AD. When they returned they began meeting in the hiuse of the upper room which according to one souce had the burial chamber of David in its baaement.

prophecies in the OT which concern the time of the new covt (such as this one) are sometimes subjective to the new ways of life & freedom through that nww covt.

We'll remain in disagreement.

These prophecies were not made to humanity or to the institutiinal church. They were made to the people of the then divided kingdom while in captivity are are understood from the time and mindset of those people, though not fulfilled in their actual time.

Click to expand...

This isn't shouting.

THIS IS SHOUTING!!!

This is for people that just don't get it.

See the difference?

.
Back to Ezekiel 37:26-27. Ezekiel tell us that the temple will be rebuild, the Jewish people will have eternal peace, and God will be among them as it was before the time of the gentile.

Argue and disagree all you want against the bible. This is all still future.

Ezekiel 37:26-27 (TLB)
26 And I will make a covenant of peace with them, an everlasting pact. I will bless them and multiply them and put my Temple among them forever. 27 And I will make my home among them. Yes, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Ezekiel 37:26-27 (NCV)
26 I will make an agreement of peace with them, an agreement that continues forever. I will put them in their land and make them grow in number. Then I will put my Temple among them forever. 27 The place where I live will be with them. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

Ezekiel 37:26-27 (CEB)
26 I will make a covenant of peace for them. It will be their covenant forever. I will grant it to them and allow them to increase. I will set my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling will be with them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.

Ezekiel 37:26-27 (ERV)
26 And I will make a peace agreement with them. This agreement will continue forever. I agree to give them their land. I agree to make them numerous and to put my holy place among them forever. 27 My Holy Tent will be with them. Yes, I will be their God and they will be my people.