The 4-point Calvinist's position - Nearer truth than full Calvinism or Arminianism?

FreeGrace2

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This is also too over-the-top to let go. The I Timothy passage is clearly not Paul teaching that Christ is the savior of the world, full stop. If it were, there would, you know, maybe actually be a full stop after "Christ is the savior of the world."
Please explain your strange "full stop" comments.

If Paul wasn't saying that Christ is the savior of the world, then what was he saying??

Is this what he was saying: "Christ is the savior of the elect, especially of the elect". Huh?

btw, I asked this in post #212:

"Would you agree that having eternal life would qualify us to live with God forever? Yes or no."
 
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Skala

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Please explain your strange "full stop" comments.

If Paul wasn't saying that Christ is the savior of the world, then what was he saying??

Is this what he was saying: "Christ is the savior of the elect, especially of the elect". Huh?

btw, I asked this in post #212:

"Would you agree that having eternal life would qualify us to live with God forever? Yes or no."

Or, Epiphoske, don't explain anything. just avoid the question, don't answer it directly, bring up some random Bible verse that wasn't part of the original discussion, move your goalposts, and then deny what you've been affirming all along.

Because these seem to be viable debate tactics and are the actions of Holy Spirit-filled Christians.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Or, Epiphoske, don't explain anything. just avoid the question, don't answer it directly, bring up some random Bible verse that wasn't part of the original discussion, move your goalposts, and then deny what you've been affirming all along.

Because these seem to be viable debate tactics and are the actions of Holy Spirit-filled Christians.
Fair description of how so many of the Calvinists have posted here. But one gets used to it.
 
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Epiphoskei

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How silly. I read is EXACTLY as written: Christ is the Savior of the world, especially of believers. I have already noted that Paul made a distinction between "all men" and "believers". And I accept that distinction.


Your continued false charges aside, I have NOT ignored those last 3 words: especially of believers. He purchased the gift of eternal life for all men, and believers have actually received the gift. So, ESPECIALLY of believers makes perfect sense. I've ignored nothing. Your charges are worse than silly.


The "all men" didn't receive the free gift.


Wrong again. Believers have received the gift. The "all men" didn't. So, ESPECIALLY of believers makes perfect sense.
Which may all be well and good, but you're overlooking the fact that Paul is qualifying Christ's saviorhood of the unsaved to be inferior to the saviorhood of the saved. Christ cannot be the savior of all men because of his work on the cross, and not be the special savior of some men because of his work on the cross. That would work if there were a full stop three words earlier. There isn't.

I looked back at my post, and I see no contradiction. Your charges are phony.

No, words actually mean what they mean. Your sentence is silly.


Apparently we're just not going to have any kind of actual dialogue, with these kind of nutty statements.


Please explain how this is even possible??????? Again, your statements are making no sense whatsoever.


I believe your statement here is delusional.


Pure nonsense. I'm getting tired of it.

And I'm getting tired of this:

If you want to actually move this debate forward, you're going to need to give us at least a half dozen biblical words you regard as synonyms for: "is actually saved," and, after having such an assurance that I will not have the football pulled away, we can examine scripture's treatment of those terms. But I'm not going to go to the work of expositing more scripture to which you'll immediately respond, "of course Christ performed [salvific language X] on the cross, and he did it for the the entire world, but [salvific language X] doesn't mean you're actually saved."

OK. Justification, salvation, forgiveness of sins, has eternal life, regeneration/born again/new birth/new creation, imputed righteousness.

That's 6. Or a half dozen, depending on how one counts. :)

Why does Calvinism think that peope go to hell for their sins when Rev 20:11-15 is clear enough that those cast into the lake of fire are cast there for NOT having eternal life. iow, they never received the gift that was theirs for the taking.

This isn't about sin because Christ paid for all sins. It's about having or not having eternal life.

I said this:
"OK. Justification, salvation, forgiveness of sins, has eternal life, regeneration/born again/new birth/new creation, imputed righteousness.

That's 6. Or a half dozen, depending on how one counts."

Please offer a clear explanation of what "goalpost" I have moved, since I DID provide 6 words that are interchangeable with salvation, JUST AS REQUESTED.

This is unacceptable. You were asked to go on record with what language you thought was interchangeable with salvation so that I could interact with you without having you move the goalposts. You did, and now you're still moving goalposts. Words do not mean themselves when you use them, and all communication is impossible.

I looked back at my post, and I see no contradiction. Your charges are phony.

I believe your statement here is delusional.
I'm getting tired of it.

This is grossly unacceptable.
 
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Skala

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Fair description of how so many of the Calvinists have posted here. But one gets used to it.

A casual glance at the past 20 pages shows that is not true, but actually it is you who is guilty of such a thing.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Which may all be well and good, but you're overlooking the fact that Paul is qualifying Christ's saviorhood of the unsaved to be inferior to the saviorhood of the saved.
I don't see either inferiorily or superiority in 1 Tim 4:10. I see effectiveness. For the unsaved, who won't receive His gift, He doesn't save them, though He clearly purchased the gift of eternal life for them. For the saved, He does save them because they received the gift of eternal life.

Christ cannot be the savior of all men because of his work on the cross, and not be the special savior of some men because of his work on the cross.
The word "malista" doesn't mean "special".
malista: especially, chiefly, most of all, above all

Though He provided salvation for the unsaved, they never accepted it.
 
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FreeGrace2

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A casual glance at the past 20 pages shows that is not true, but actually it is you who is guilty of such a thing.
Please prove your grossly untrue claim. Specifically, with post #s and actual comments.
 
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Epiphoskei

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I don't see either inferiorily or superiority in 1 Tim 4:10. I see effectiveness. For the unsaved, who won't receive His gift, He doesn't save them, though He clearly purchased the gift of eternal life for them. For the saved, He does save them because they received the gift of eternal life.

You do not see superiority, but you do see:


malista: especially, chiefly, most of all, above all


The problem remains: how is Christ especially the savior of the believer? It won't do to say that Christ is the savior of everyone but only believers realize that salvation. You have divorced saviorhood and salvation so radically that you can't now start interchanging them. How, without making reference to the actual salvation which you unequivocally have denied is implied by the word "savior," do you see Christ as the savior of the church "most of all?" What are the unique paramaters of Christ's church-saviorhood which are "above all" other forms of lesser saviorhood?

Also, once again, please stop using lexicons as if words are bound to their dictionary/lexical entry. Meaning is use. Lexicons catalog uses. They aren't exhaustive and they certainly don't arbitrate what are the acceptable/unacceptable translations.
 
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FreeGrace2

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You do not see superiority, but you do see:

Originally Posted by FreeGrace2 View Post
malista: especially, chiefly, most of all, above all

The problem remains: how is Christ especially the savior of the believer? It won't do to say that Christ is the savior of everyone but only believers realize that salvation.
Yes, it will do. He is the Savior of everyone because He paid the penalty for everyone and purchased actual eternal life for everyone. That alone qualifies Him to be called Savior of the world. Jn 1:29, 4:42.

You have divorced saviorhood and salvation so radically that you can't now start interchanging them.
I haven't at all. But I acknowledge your opinion. I think the problem is your refusal to accept that Christ died for everyone.

How, without making reference to the actual salvation which you unequivocally have denied is implied by the word "savior," do you see Christ as the savior of the church "most of all?"
By the fact that He actually gave them the free gift of eternal life. He did save them. So, most of all, He is the Savior of those who believe in Him.

But, He is just as much the Savior of everyone else, even though He doesn't save them. Their refusal of Him doesn't remove His Saviorhood. That wouldn't make any sense.

What are the unique paramaters of Christ's church-saviorhood which are "above all" other forms of lesser saviorhood?
There is no such thing as "other forms of lesser saviorhood". You're still thinking in false terms of "superior vs inferior". With that improper context, I don't expect that my view can be understood properly.

Also, once again, please stop using lexicons as if words are bound to their dictionary/lexical entry.
Oh, I didn't know that words can mean something totally outside of what the lexicon says they mean. Is that how one defends their own theology, by making up meanings that can't be found in a lexicon? Sweet.

Meaning is use. Lexicons catalog uses. They aren't exhaustive and they certainly don't arbitrate what are the acceptable/unacceptable translations.
So, where do meanings come from?
 
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Epiphoskei

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Yes, it will do. He is the Savior of everyone because He paid the penalty for everyone and purchased actual eternal life for everyone. That alone qualifies Him to be called Savior of the world. Jn 1:29, 4:42.
But what did he do that qualifies him to be savior especially of the believer?

I haven't at all.
In which case you admit that being the savior implies that people are saved.

But, He is just as much the Savior of everyone else, even though He doesn't save them.
That directly contradicts "especially of belivers." You have Christ being the savior of the whole world, "equally" with believers.

There is no such thing as "other forms of lesser saviorhood". You're still thinking in false terms of "superior vs inferior".
Paul's terms, not mine.

Oh, I didn't know that words can mean something totally outside of what the lexicon says they mean. Is that how one defends their own theology, by making up meanings that can't be found in a lexicon? Sweet.
Since you don't have any actual training in foreign language, I'd suggest more humility when you debate with a professional how it is professionals interact with their tools. You misunderstand what a lexicon is.

So, where do meanings come from?

Use.
 
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FreeGrace2

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But what did he do that qualifies him to be savior especially of the believer?
He saved them.

That directly contradicts "especially of belivers." You have Christ being the savior of the whole world, "equally" with believers.
No I don't. He purchased the gift of eternal life for everyone, but only those who receive the gift through faith are saved. This is not difficult at all.

I asked this:
"So, where do meanings come from?"
So, someone makes up a word, and starts using that word that no one else knows about, and just because the maker upper person starts using that word others begin to know what that word means? And this is from a professional??

In reality, we use words that already have meaning. Not the other way around, as per your proposal.

Or, when a new word is coined, it will come with a definition so as to be clear what it means.

I'd ask for a refund on some of those degrees, if this is what was learned.
 
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Epiphoskei

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He saved them.
Good. Then we're agreed. That's Calvinism by the way.




"So, where do meanings come from?"

So, someone makes up a word, and starts using that word that no one else knows about, and just because the maker upper person starts using that word others begin to know what that word means? And this is from a professional??

Yes, exactly. There are two ways this can happen:

1) The individual who starts using the word will explain using words which are already common to both parties.

2) An individual will use the word and the party who doesn't know it will determine the meaning from use.

I've learned three of my languages in the former way, i.e., book learning, and one in the latter, i.e., immersion.

In reality, we use words that already have meaning. Not the other way around, as per your proposal.
Unfortunately all linguistic theory is built on the counter proposition, that words have no objective or absolute meaning, but acquire meaning only based on an unspoken contract between speakers regarding how the word will be used.

Or, when a new word is coined, it will come with a definition so as to be clear what it means.
A definition is a delineation of use.
 
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