Israel & the Church. See the Difference?

J

Jerico Miles

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I get it..somehow you think you're making a point.

No, no, no, no, no Eb. Back to John 5:22-24 again.....5th time now.

Read what it said. Who's the Son? It's Jesus. This is all about Jesus and no one else. It's not about me.

I'm a son of God, but it's not about me. Adam is a son of God, but it's not about Adam. You're a...ah...ah...a preterist, but it's not about you either.

This is not about me. It's all about Jesus.

John 5:22-24
22 For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


You're just not getthing this Eb.

Nevermind...I'm fully aware it's over your head what I'm referring to.

No you don't. Look again at Proverbs 8:22 and Matthew 22:41-42. How are these two passages the same scripture? What's over my head is you arguing a comparison between apples with fishes trying to convince me they are one in the same.

Eb, the year is 2015 AD not 70 AD. People don't think like that anymore.

Proverbs 8:22
“The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.

Matthew 22:41-42
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?”

They said to Him, “The Son of David.”


Now...once again you evade the issue.

How so Eb? I showed you the verse but you just don't get it. Here's the whole story. Esau valued his birthright less than a bowl of stew.

Read'em and weep Eb.

Genesis 25:29-34
29 Once when Jacob was cooking stew, Esau came in from the field, and he was exhausted. 30 And Esau said to Jacob, “Let me eat some of that red stew, for I am exhausted!” (Therefore his name was called Edom.) 31 Jacob said, “Sell me your birthright now.” 32 Esau said, “I am about to die; of what use is a birthright to me?” 33 Jacob said, “Swear to me now.” So he swore to him and sold his birthright to Jacob. 34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and lentil stew, and he ate and drank and rose and went his way. Thus Esau despised his birthright.


I made a mistake saying Rachel, but it doesn't change the point, which is you trying to evade your own error saying:

Eb, guess what. That's not the only mistake you made. Just in Matthew 24 alone you made 49 mistakes out of 51 verses. Christ hasn't return.

It's still future.

The actual fact is Esau was trying to recover the birth right Jacob stole from him, and begged a blessing from Isaac. He wasn't wanting God's grace at all AS YOU SAID. So don't run from your own error.

Ahh....read'em and weep Eb?

Genesis 25:29-34
29 Once when Jacob was cooking stew, Esau came in from the field, and he was exhausted. 30 And Esau said to Jacob, “Let me eat some of that red stew, for I am exhausted!” (Therefore his name was called Edom.) 31 Jacob said, “Sell me your birthright now.” 32 Esau said, “I am about to die; of what use is a birthright to me?” 33 Jacob said, “Swear to me now.” So he swore to him and sold his birthright to Jacob. 34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and lentil stew, and he ate and drank and rose and went his way. Thus Esau despised his birthright.


If you think so.

No, I don't think so Eb.

No. However you do need to be able to comprehend the bible correctly.

I do. It didn't happen in AD 70.

Because it certainly contains a lot of history.

Preterism contains a lot of history. The bible contains a lot of facts. See the difference Eb?

It's not the same teaching.

This jesting doesn't change the facts. What will you do when there's no "pretrib rapture" Jerico? Start a "new theology"?

There hasn't been one the last 2000 years since Christ came. What makes you think I'm worried?

What are you gonna do when Christ returns and the year isn't 70 AD? Start a new.....?

I don't teach. I share the truth of the word...while you follow a fantasy of the end as truth.

Christ never said the end would come at 70 AD.

Matthew 24:6
And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet.

Matthew 24:13
But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.


You're sharing a fantasy Eb.

The first thing you need to do is not run from the first three verses of Matthew 24...then compare Luke 21:7-36 and Mark 13:3-33. You *might begin to understand Matthew 24 is about 70 AD as Jesus Judges Israel, while Matthew 25 is about the return of Christ in judgment of the world.

The first thing you need to do is realized Christ never returned at 70 AD. Thus all those prophecies hasn't been fulfilled.

So why is Matthew 25 in the scripture?

You don't even know what Matthew 25 is about. Nothing there involves 70 AD.

Once again...Matthew 24 is the judgment of Israel by Jesus in 70 AD. Matthew 25 is about Jesus' return to earth in judgement.

:doh:

Christ haven't return yet. You can't prove Matthew 24:29-31 was 70 AD.

Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Indeed...Go read Daniel 11, where he picks up on the rest of it...if you can.

Daniel 11:16-18
16 But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land, which by his hand shall be consumed.
17 He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him.
18 After this shall he turn his face unto the isles, and shall take many: but a prince for his own behalf shall cause the reproach offered by him to cease; without his own reproach he shall cause it to turn upon him.


Do you see that Eb? Do you know where he's head and where he gets his power from and when he'll return to his land?

You getting this Eb?

I don't have to. It's you who don't understand...but you'll have to find that out as your ideas of the end don't happen.

No, we're at the end. Look, these prophecies about preterism already fulfilled.

Look familiar Eb?

2 Peter 3:3
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

Jude 1:18
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.



Perhaps you'll grow up???

Why? I'm doing fine tormenting you at this age.

I don't know. Perhaps you'll learn to read scripture???

I think I'm reading this better than you. Do you see a question here about a temple. I sure don't.

Matthew 24:3
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


No problem Jerico! Time is going to tell the story because Jesus is coming and we both can't be right. It's going to be interesting when you don't get "pretrib raptured"...what will you do?

I'm gonna be laughing from heaven when I look at the calendar and the year doesn't say 70 AD.
 
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J

Jerico Miles

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Yes, you did. Thank you for your concern.

I have just two very simple questions for you.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Who does "him" refer to in that verse?

John 1:10
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

Who does "him" refer to in that verse?

Didn't we go through this already like 15-30 pages back?
 
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J

Jerico Miles

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Once again that has nothing pertaining to the actual issue I addressed with you. Please take the time to actually read what I addressed and why.

We don't have anything to talk about because your impression of the things I said are all incorrect. Do you know what Ii said to the other guy in the other threads?

And you want me to go back and read what you addressed me as while you're refusing to read what I wrote having already formed a false impression of me.

What's there to talk about if you don't know what's going on?

I think it's pretty evident that the only person who is being abusive is you. It takes less than a minute to flick through your recent posts and see quite clearly that you are so conceited that wasting time to bring to light your errors is pointless. Once again calling someone a liar and a hypocrite highlights your own foolishness, I hope your attitude changes, because it surely doesn't reflect well for a self professing christian.

Let's see.
~I never addressed you first.
~You called me out and accused me of XYZ.
~I told you I believe in God, believe in Christ and His finished work on the cross.
~I told you I've been trying to correct Lastseven and you got the wrong guy. ~I told you to go back and read the last 15 pages but you refused.
~Based on nothing, you're accusing me falsely.

I think I have a right to defend myself by now and call you a liar accusing me being abusive too.

Again, what's there to talk about if you don't know what's going on?

In regards to Lastseven, I have no idea who the person is or what petty grievance you have with him, nor does it concern me. So please don't drag me into whatever conflict you have with others.

Exactly. Maybe you should find out what we are talking about first before calling me out.

There's nothing to talk about unless you want to discuss how you can make improvements on your approach with people.
 
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B

Bible2

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Aijalon said in post 349:

Yet, the church does not enjoy any of the irrevocable blessings on the Land of Israel in it's former times, which are yet to be reconfirmed.

Note that if even those who are "strangers" in Israel can inherit the land of Israel (Ezekiel 47:21-23), then certainly believing Gentiles, who are "no more strangers" to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19), will inherit the land of Israel during the future millennium of Revelation 20:4-6. And they will inherit the land and all the other promises given to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Ephesians 3:6, Galatians 3:29, Genesis 12:7) along with all the elect Jews who have ever been saved in the past or who will get saved in our future, including at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:25-32).
 
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ebedmelech

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And so of course for the AD70 crowd it actually IS all about God forsaking the nation of Israel..
No. It's about a covenant he made with the Nation of Israel that they broke...and God delivered on his promise of what would happen when they broke it.
True colors..
The "true colors" is a false FABRICATION. Have you ever read Leviticus 26? That is in the bible. Do you think God never delivered on that?
Of course this is what they would have men think. That God HAS forsaken the nation of Israel.
That's pretty ridiculous when Romans 11 says God HAS NOT CAST OFF Israel. However at the same time you cannot disregard that Romans 9:6-8 says:
6 But. it is not as though the word of God has failed For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.”
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.


This then, is the point! Understanding the TRUE DESCENDANTS OF ABRAHAM Have the faith of Abraham. Did you disregard Romans 4 that Paul goes to great length to tell explain this? Romans 4:16:
16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

You want to think it's about Israel according to the flesh...WHEN IT CLEARLY IS NOT! It's about TRUE ISRAEL, which is ALL (JEW OR GENTILE) that trust and believe God, just as Abraham did. THOSE ARE THE TRUE ISRAEL OF GOD!
Galatians 6:13-6
13 For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.


Stay caught up in a fleshly nation...I'll stand with the SPIRITUAL NATION!

Once again...THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHO ARE DESCENDED FROM ISRAEL...
 
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ebedmelech

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No, no, no, no, no Eb. Back to John 5:22-24 again.....5th time now.

Read what it said. Who's the Son? It's Jesus. This is all about Jesus and no one else. It's not about me.

I'm a son of God, but it's not about me. Adam is a son of God, but it's not about Adam. You're a...ah...ah...a preterist, but it's not about you either.

This is not about me. It's all about Jesus.
The first thing you need to do, is show where I disagree with this point. That's your problem in this point. No one disagreed with this, yet you keep going, as if someone does.

As for the rest of your post Jerico, When you get some maturity. I'll be happy do debate anything with you. As Proverbs 22:17 says, "Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another"

I don't have time for childishness. I have sharp disagreement with other saints in this forum about eschatology and other areas of the faith but at least they have maturity in "how to go about debate". When you can do that, we can engage in debating the word of God with "Christian maturity".
 
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ThatTrueLight

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No. It's about a covenant he made with the Nation of Israel that they broke...and God delivered on his promise of what would happen when they broke it.

Well then thank God in your prayers that you're not like they are.. I'm sure that you will do much better.

If not, then He might just forsake you too.
 
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LastSeven

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Didn't we go through this already like 15-30 pages back?

Wouldn't it be easier to just answer the question than to make me go back 15 to 30 pages to see if I can find your answer somewhere in all those words?

Then again, perhaps refusing to answer tells me all I need to know. You see the truth, which is that all things were created through Jesus, you just don't want to admit it now after that big fuss you've made over it.
 
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Aijalon

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You make a great point, there are condtions of the covenant, which is to say that only through obedience does Israel have the blessing and honor to be a nation under God's name.

Never the less! There are various statements in which God announces NO-IF's or "BUT's" and he qualifies his covenant with Israel by UN-CONDITIONAL promise.

Whenever Israel repents, the UNCONDITIONAL clause is invoked, Israel must have back it's land. Therefore, if any true genetic Israelites continue to exist, and should they be REPENTANT, God MUST give them back the land per his IRREVOKABLE word.

Genesis 15: God makes material promises to Abraham's descendants.
 
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LastSeven

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Well then thank God in your prayers that you're not like they are.. I'm sure that you will do much better.

If not, then He might just forsake you too.

Are you here to discuss the scriptures or just mock people who disagree with you?
 
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Aijalon

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And so of course for the AD70 crowd it actually IS all about God forsaking the nation of Israel..

True colors..

Of course this is what they would have men think. That God HAS forsaken the nation of Israel.
God did turn his back on Israel in 70 AD and scattered them to the nations as required of his Law for his rebellious people. To this day they are exiled, or else God reinstated them on account of.... well it could not be their obedience! And we know that he only grants them priviledge to live in the land if they obedient. So how then does Israel of today have this privilege? CLUE: It is a trap!
 
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ThatTrueLight

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God did turn his back on Israel in 70 AD and scattered them to the nations as required of his Law for his rebellious people. To this day they are exiled, or else God reinstated them on account of.... well it could not be their obedience! And we know that he only grants them priviledge to live in the land if they obedient. So how then does Israel of today have this privilege? CLUE: It is a trap!

Israel has gone into exile in the past.. and AD70 was certainly a point where they were CUT OFF from Christ.. although that doesn't mean that He has forsaken them..

In fact.. He hid that treasure in a field according to the scripture.. And of course Paul teaches us plainly that Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in..

If you'd like to join the AD70 crowd, then go right ahead.. just remember that if He has forsaken that nation.. then hopefully you're better than they are..

Don't forget to thank God about that when you're in prayer.
 
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Aijalon

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Note that if even those who are "strangers" in Israel can inherit the land of Israel (Ezekiel 47:21-23), then certainly believing Gentiles, who are "no more strangers" to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19), will inherit the land of Israel during the future millennium of Revelation 20:4-6. And they will inherit the land and all the other promises given to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Ephesians 3:6, Galatians 3:29, Genesis 12:7) along with all the elect Jews who have ever been saved in the past or who will get saved in our future, including at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:25-32).
That's true. But I guess my point is that the church cannot identify the 12 tribes, and as such the Old Covenant is truly broken until the secret identities of the 12 tribes are revealed. At its core the old Covenant is 12 land grants (ore more, counting the holy district and perimeter as two tracts and the east side of Jordan separately).

And the main thing is that the blessing to live in the land goes in conjunction with being holy, and by making God's name in the earth a name to be praised, which is not happening in Israel. The law requires that the STATE of Israel be honorable to God. That simply isn't happening, it is a churchless, faithless state.
 
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LastSeven

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You make a great point, there are condtions of the covenant, which is to say that only through obedience does Israel have the blessing and honor to be a nation under God's name.

Never the less! There are various statements in which God announces NO-IF's or "BUT's" and he qualifies his covenant with Israel by UN-CONDITIONAL promise.

Whenever Israel repents, the UNCONDITIONAL clause is invoked, Israel must have back it's land. Therefore, if any true genetic Israelites continue to exist, and should they be REPENTANT, God MUST give them back the land per his IRREVOKABLE word.

Genesis 15: God makes material promises to Abraham's descendants.

Thank you for this mature and sensible argument.

Here's how I would respond to this. You're right that God made unconditional promises to Israel, but everything changes when you realize who Israel actually is. There are a few passages that explain specifically that Israel is Jesus, but there's another way to look at this. To whom were the promises made?

The answer is right here:

Galatians 3:16
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.

The promises were made to Christ, not to a group of people who happen to be descendants of Abraham. This is an example of the new testament interpreting the old testament.

The promises were made to Christ, which includes all those who are in Christ. And just as the promises were made to a spiritual kingdom, not a physical kingdom, the promises themselves are also spiritual, not physical. It's not about the physical land in the middle east. It's the promise of a kingdom (the mountain of the Lord) over which Jesus reigns.

So yes, the promises to Israel were unconditional, and in Jesus those promises have been fulfilled as promised.
 
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Aijalon

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Israel has gone into exile in the past.. and AD70 was certainly a point where they were CUT OFF from Christ.. although that doesn't mean that He has forsaken them..

In fact.. He hid that treasure in a field according to the scripture.. And of course Paul teaches us plainly that Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in..

If you'd like to join the AD70 crowd, then go right ahead.. just remember that if He has forsaken that nation.. then hopefully you're better than they are..

Don't forget to thank God about that when you're in prayer.
The people of today's Israel are impostors, it's that simple. I do believe in a millennial kingdom, and that is the answer to the reinstatement of Israel, not earlier. No, he has not forsaken them, there is always a remnant of Israel in faith. They are hidden in the fold of his garment, where they remain to this day!
 
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ThatTrueLight

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Are you here to discuss the scriptures or just mock people who disagree with you?

Just stating the simple facts for those who think that God has forsaken the nation of Israel and that THEY are the true Israel while the Israel in front of their nose isn't..

It's clearly the height of becoming wise in your own conceits..

Then there are folks who can't admit it when they're shown their error in the scriptures.. at that point all they can typically do is what you do here..
 
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ThatTrueLight

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The people of today's Israel are impostors, it's that simple. I do believe in a millennial kingdom, and that is the answer to the reinstatement of Israel, not earlier. No, he has not forsaken them, there is always a remnant of Israel in faith. They are hidden in the fold of his garment, where they remain to this day!

Tell us what this means.. it's always fun..

Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

I'm sure that it must mean anything and everything but what it does say, right?
 
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LastSeven

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If you'd like to join the AD70 crowd, then go right ahead.. just remember that if He has forsaken that nation.. then hopefully you're better than they are..

Why do you keep saying that? Nobody is saying God has forsaken Israel. In fact, Israel is God's kingdom, so that would be silly.

Those people who live in that land in the middle east however (just like everybody else on earth), each have to make their own choice. To either join the kingdom of Israel or remain cut off from the kingdom.

Just living in that land (which also happens to be called "Israel") does not make you a member of the kingdom of God. You have to have faith. The same rules apply to everyone, no matter your heritage.
 
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Aijalon

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So yes, the promises to Israel were unconditional, and in Jesus those promises have been fulfilled as promised.

The scope of the fulfillment of the promise was, and is as you say, to and through Christ.

Then, as you say, the risen Christ shall return, and in so doing all promises to Israel which were in a material form, MUST then be able to be invoked.

As such, the Returned Christ in the flesh (Son of Man coming in his kingdom) will realize all those material promises.

Why would we limite the primises to be completely fulfilled before their time? Christ has not returned!
 
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Aijalon

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Tell us what this means.. it's always fun..

Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

I'm sure that it must mean anything and everything but what it does say, right?
Clearly it is like I begin to discuss this, there is a distinction between Israel and the Gentiles which pertains to the promises of God concerning the Land of Israel and it's government - a distinction which is over and above eternal life, but materal blessing.

Gentiles continue to be the little brother, and will have the lesser birthright, yet ultimately no less blessing.

Blessing is prosperity. Birthright is property.
 
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