Need some opinions on the "Unpardonable Sin".

Bluelion · Mar 31, 2015

MWood said:
And after all these scriptures there is no mention of the Holy Spirit being with Jesus. Nor aiding, or advising Him. When He returned from the wilderness He was under His own power and authority as the Son of God. He didn't need the Holy Spirit.

Why then do you think it was an unforgivable sin when the Pharisee said He had an unclean Spirit? It was because He cast out Spirits and Heal the sick by way of The Holy Spirit and they spoke against The Holy Spirit.

Avid · Mar 31, 2015

MWood said:
And after all these scriptures there is no mention of the Holy Spirit being with Jesus. Nor aiding, or advising Him. When He returned from the wilderness He was under His own power and authority as the Son of God. He didn't need the Holy Spirit.

Take note of what the scriptures say, and compare that to what your post has claimed...

Matthew 12
22 ¶ Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24 Butwhen the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

In the context of the passage in Matt.12, we see that there were people saying the work of God's Holy Spirit is the work of Satan's "Prince." It is what this passage and thread are about.

Avid · Apr 1, 2015

Bluelion said:
Why then do you think it was an unforgivable sin when the Pharisee said He had an unclean Spirit? It was because He cast out Spirits and Heal the sick by way of The Holy Spirit and they spoke against The Holy Spirit.

Good Answer. I like the way you put it.

now faith · Apr 1, 2015

Avid said:
There seems to be a mixing of terms. Also, there may be some minor confusion about something in particular. The LORD Jesus Christ made it plain that there are all manner of sins and blasphemies that can be forgiven. It does not say these can ALWAYS be for given, nor that they necessarily will be forgiven, nor that forgiveness would be given absent repentance.

There may be a point at which the unregenerate sinner has sinned away the time he had to seek God or to be reconciled with God. Further, there are things mentioned that could bring a sinner to a point that has no way back to living a right life, and repenting from the direction of the life of the sinner. Some preachers of the past centuries would say this was "sinning away the day of grace."

Being reprobate qualifies as such a condition. There are many ways to achieve this status before the LORD, and neither forgiveness nor a return from this condition is considered to be possible.

T H E
BARREN FIG-TREE;
OR,
THE DOOM AND DOWNFALL OF THE FRUITLESS PROFESSOR:
SHOWING, THAT THE DAY OF GRACE MAY BE PAST WITH HIM
LONG BEFORE HIS LIFE IS ENDED;
THE SIGNS ALSO BY WHICH
SUCH MISERABLE MORTALS MAY BE KNOWN.
By J O H N . B U N Y A N.
London, 1688

Barren Fig-Tree - aChristianSpirit

When a soul is made aware of the truth of the scriptures, it is upon him to run from his sin, and run to God in repentance.

THE HEAVENLY FOOTMAN;
OR,
A DESCRIPTION OF THE MAN THAT GETS TO HEAVEN:
TOGETHER WITH THE WAY HE RUNS IN, THE MARKS HE GOES BY;
ALSO,
SOME DIRECTIONS HOW TO RUN SO AS TO OBTAIN.
By J O H N . B U N Y A N.

Heavenly Footman - aChristianSpirit

Another wrong thing being done by society is to obscure these principles from our children, when we remove the fact that a game or race will have a winner. Anyone who is not THE WINNER will be a loser to some degree. Often, there has been honor bestowed upon the next few to finish a race, or those who finish close behind the winner in the competition. However, this newer idea is to keep our children from realizing the consequences of failure in any degree for any pursuit. Full reality of true principles will prevail eventually.

All this is to say that the person concerned with being right in God's eyes will not be slothful, lazy nor careless about seeking the LORD. He will realize there is a Strait Gate to be found and entered. He will realize that few find it, and they that do may try to enter, but not be able.
Matthew 7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Luke 13
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

At some point, God will be done with every sinner. Either the sinner will yield, and repent, or the sinner will be cut off. Once cut off, there is no reconciling them to God. It is a legal matter to be handled at the Great White Throne Judgment. There are a multitude of ways that can happen.

I am trying to show the distinction of these MANY ways people sin away their opportunity to be reconciled with God from a particular act that immediately seals their doom regardless of what else happens. When all unrepentant and unregenerate sinners are judged at the same judgment, it is easy enough to confuse all the things that happen to secure their individual fates.

When scripture says that all manner of sins and blasphemies may be forgiven, that does not say all people who sin and blaspheme will be forgiven, nor that they can be forgiven at any time. The term "all manner" means the categories of sin and blasphemy are open to forgiveness outside of this particular category, as stated in Matt.22.

If you are not able to do a particular thing that is not to be forgiven, it is not in the same category. That is why the treatment of the sin of taking the mark of the Beast. The same thing is true of these people, but that is not something we are even able to do at this point. All the 1900 years since this was described have transpired without this choice being offered to the whole population of the world as a way to escape the wrath of the Beast! To describe all the things that will be done in that time is to open a huge area of discussion that is only part of how we distinguish these categories of sin or sinners.

I trust the LORD can show each of us His truth as we submit to Him.

Amen, that was exactly my point.

The blastphamy of which we know has no forgiveness,is clear as to its action.

The reprobate mind is such that we do not know when God's grace is removed.
only God knows this.

My opinion on the blasphemy Jesus spoke of, was as well aimed at those who knew God, and the history of his provisions.

I'm not sure on a baby Christian or sinner, all I can say is thank God for his mercy.

Growing up this offense of blasphemy was taught to me by my dad at a very young age.

If my terminology seems vague,I do not want any to dwell on this subject that does not fully understand it.

Avid · Apr 2, 2015

now faith said:
... I'm not sure on a baby Christian or sinner, all I can say is thank God for his mercy...

Here is another confused point. Not trying to pick unnecessarily, but there is so much more difference from the newest and least experienced true child of God than the best, most refined of the unregenerate sinner than almost ANY TWO THINGS in God creation.

Matthew 11
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

We like to make people feel good that show some remorse for their wicked life, but often will try to console them by saying they are "Christians" when we are not able to see exactly whether God has worked in their hearts by His grace or not.

Never rest in convictions till they end in conversion. This is that wherein most men miscarry; they rest in their convictions, and take them for conversion, as if sin seen were therefore forgiven, as if a sight of the want of grace were the truth of the work of grace.
Matthew Mead (1629−1699)

It is hard for a man to let go a hope of heaven, on which he hath once allowed himself to lay hold, and which he hath retained for a considerable time. True conversion is a rare thing; but that men should be brought off from a false hope of conversion, after they are once settled and established in it, and have continued in it for some time, is much more rare.
Jonathan Edwards (1703−1758)

It is not the business of the Preacher, Pastor, Deacon, or anyone trying to proclaim God's salvation to the lost sinners of the world, to grant assurance to someone they think has salvation. God is completely sovereign, and completely able to show the sinner when he has received the grace for forgiveness and for salvation.

One preacher said (upon the occasion of the conviction of a notorious gangster) that there was not a worse gangster than the man who would try to give assurance of salvation to someone who does not have that assurance from God.

MWood · Apr 2, 2015

Avid said:
Take note of what the scriptures say, and compare that to what your post has claimed...

Matthew 12
22 ¶ Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24 Butwhen the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

In the context of the passage in Matt.12, we see that there were people saying the work of God's Holy Spirit is the work of Satan's "Prince." It is what this passage and thread are about.

In verse 28, BUT IF.... I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come to you.

I don't see this as Jesus using the Holy Spirit to cast out the demons. Why would Jesus, who has all the power and authority of God Himself, need the
Holy Spirit?

Are there any other verses that show where Jesus used the Holy Spirit to do the miracles, signs, and wonders that He preformed?

Bluelion · Apr 2, 2015

Avid said:
Good Answer. I like the way you put it.

thanks

Avid · Apr 2, 2015

MWood said:
In verse 28, BUT IF.... I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come to you.

I don't see this as Jesus using the Holy Spirit to cast out the demons. Why would Jesus, who has all the power and authority of God Himself, need the
Holy Spirit?

Are there any other verses that show where Jesus used the Holy Spirit to do the miracles, signs, and wonders that He preformed?

If you cannot see it here, you will not see it in any passage:

Pharisees say Jesus does not cast devils, but by the prince of the devils.
Jesus says blasphemy "against the Son of man" can be forgiven.
Jesus proves He does not cast out devils by the prince of the devils.
Jesus says if He DOES cast out devils by the Holy Spirit of God, then the Kingdom of Heaven in come to them. (what John had preached.)
Jesus states their sin is against the Holy Ghost, and not forgiven.
Had already showed this other account because Mark said it slightly differently.

Read this again.

Mark 3
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

It was blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, because Jesus cast out demons by the Holy Spirit of God, and they said it was by the prince of devils. Jesus showed it was the work of God's Holy Spirit, and not the prince of the devils. The sin was not against Jesus which He has said was forgivable, but against the Holy Ghost and therefore, unforgivable. All of this "Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit. "

You do not need other verses besides the many already offered. It is now upon you to show the scripture that backs what your post claimed. Your answer also, needs to show where scripture says the Holy Spirit was NOT upon Jesus after His temptation. The Holy Spirit of God came upon Jesus at His baptism by John, and immediately drove Him into a place of temptation. It does not say Jesus did not need that, and did not say He no longer had that.

now faith · Apr 3, 2015

Avid said:
Here is another confused point. Not trying to pick unnecessarily, but there is so much more difference from the newest and least experienced true child of God than the best, most refined of the unregenerate sinner than almost ANY TWO THINGS in God creation.

Matthew 11
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

We like to make people feel good that show some remorse for their wicked life, but often will try to console them by saying they are "Christians" when we are not able to see exactly whether God has worked in their hearts by His grace or not.

Never rest in convictions till they end in conversion. This is that wherein most men miscarry; they rest in their convictions, and take them for conversion, as if sin seen were therefore forgiven, as if a sight of the want of grace were the truth of the work of grace.
Matthew Mead (1629−1699)

It is hard for a man to let go a hope of heaven, on which he hath once allowed himself to lay hold, and which he hath retained for a considerable time. True conversion is a rare thing; but that men should be brought off from a false hope of conversion, after they are once settled and established in it, and have continued in it for some time, is much more rare.
Jonathan Edwards (1703−1758)

It is not the business of the Preacher, Pastor, Deacon, or anyone trying to proclaim God's salvation to the lost sinners of the world, to grant assurance to someone they think has salvation. God is completely sovereign, and completely able to show the sinner when he has received the grace for forgiveness and for salvation.

One preacher said (upon the occasion of the conviction of a notorious gangster) that there was not a worse gangster than the man who would try to give assurance of salvation to someone who does not have that assurance from God.

It depends on what the new Christian is being taught,by others.

Many new Christians look up to those who mentor them in doctrine,mistakes can be made that would cause them to accuse others of being of the devil who may or may not be operating in the Holy Spirit.

I have a nephew who was born again,full of joy and testimony.
He started going to a Church, and now he accuses every thing and just about everybody,of teaching doctrine of devils.

He was not that way before going and being mentored,so God's mercy abounds in the immature.

I hope.

Avid · Apr 3, 2015

Avid said:
... It is not the business of the Preacher, Pastor, Deacon, or anyone trying to proclaim God's salvation to the lost sinners of the world, to grant assurance to someone they think has salvation. God is completely sovereign, and completely able to show the sinner when he has received the grace for forgiveness and for salvation.

One preacher said (upon the occasion of the conviction of a notorious gangster) that there was not a worse gangster than the man who would try to give assurance of salvation to someone who does not have that assurance from God.

now faith said:
It depends on what the new Christian is being taught,by others...

--- etc.---

I have a nephew who was born again,full of joy and testimony.
He started going to a Church, and now he accuses every thing and just about everybody,of teaching doctrine of devils...

Two things:
First, re-read what I said that ONLY GOD can be sure who is and who is not one of His children. We may see much of what we consider fruit. We may see scriptural proofs that indicate to us that it is true, but we DO NOT KNOW.

Second, it may seem wrong to us, and we may find agreement about what you are saying he is doing, but how are you 100% sure he is not correct about all the people he denounced? I have no idea, really, so I cannot make a judgment, one way or the other. He should be warned, and we should be careful to NOT take on the task of defining who is, and who is not "saved" and doing God's specific will.

All of this is the type of thing I have tried to get across. Because of all these deficiencies, we have a confused bunch of people trying to live by a confused set of principles. We should look to God's word, every one of us. That is our source. If all of us were doing that, there would be less of these situation to try and cypher out.

corinth77777 · Apr 28, 2015

I thought the unpardenable sin was rejecting the holy spirit ...or divorce..
..how can you ask for forgiveness if you reject the forgiver?..

revrobor · Apr 29, 2015

corinth77777 said:
I thought the unpardenable sin was rejecting the holy spirit ...or divorce..
..how can you ask for forgiveness if you reject the forgiver?..

The unpardonable sin is calling the Holy Spirit a lair (blaspheming Him) when one rejects God's plan of salvation.

Avid · Apr 29, 2015

revrobor said:
The unpardonable sin is calling the Holy Spirit a lair (blaspheming Him) when one rejects God's plan of salvation.

Can you provide a scripture reference to back what you are saying?

revrobor · Apr 29, 2015

Avid said:
Can you provide a scripture reference to back what you are saying?

Read your Bible. What is the ONLY thing Gos will not forgive? What is the ONLY thing that will send a person to Hell? It's right there in front of you. Why do so many people miss it?

Avid · Apr 29, 2015

revrobor said:
Read your Bible. What is the ONLY thing Gos will not forgive? What is the ONLY thing that will send a person to Hell? It's right there in front of you. Why do so many people miss it?

I have read my Bible, and I gave scripture passages that state what I believe about this subject.

I asked for a scripture that says what you believe, as put in you post - anything that references calling the Holy Spirit a liar. Are you asking me to prove your point for you?

What you say is very specific. You should be able to provide a reference that says this specifically.

Avid · Apr 29, 2015

revrobor said:
Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is calling Him a liar when He calls you to believe and accept what Jesus has done for you. Unbelief is the only unpardonable sin.

Avid said:
Please provide a scripture passage that mentions "unbelief," "surrender" or "refusing" in conjunction with the condition of being an "unforgivable" sin.

Add to this the word, "liar."

Avid said:
Had you read my initial description of this issue? It is in post #6 of this thread.

As stated before, I gave specific references in scripture for what I am saying, and you can provide scripture backing for your points as well.

revrobor · Apr 29, 2015

Open your eyes. It's throughout the New Testament. What is the one sin God will not forgive? Without giving your heart to Jesus one is doomed. Don't you see that? There is no specific verse and none is needed. And when one refuses to surrender himself to Jesus he is calling the Holy Spirit a liar. There are many verses that talk about what is needed for salvation and the consequences of not accepting God's gift of salvation. Look them up yourself.

Avid · Apr 29, 2015

revrobor said:
Open your eyes. It's throughout the New Testament. What is the one sin God will not forgive? Without giving your heart to Jesus one is doomed. Don't you see that? There is no specific verse and none is needed. And when one refuses to surrender himself to Jesus he is calling the Holy Spirit a liar. There are many verses that talk about what is needed for salvation and the consequences of not accepting God's gift of salvation. Look them up yourself.

Why can you not support your opinions? Are they not scriptural? I gave detailed scripture references for mine.

My eyes are open. I have read my Bible. I am trying to get you to support your opinions with scripture. STOP FLAMING ME (your only warning.) You are posting on a Baptist forum while claiming to be non-denominational. Why can't you reference scripture to support your opinions??? If you have a good reason, state it!

now faith · Apr 29, 2015

revrobor said:
Open your eyes. It's throughout the New Testament. What is the one sin God will not forgive? Without giving your heart to Jesus one is doomed. Don't you see that? There is no specific verse and none is needed. And when one refuses to surrender himself to Jesus he is calling the Holy Spirit a liar. There are many verses that talk about what is needed for salvation and the consequences of not accepting God's gift of salvation. Look them up yourself.

I do not understand the logic in your post.

People who turn there back on God,or resist the call,do not call the Holy Spirit a liar,they may even know the need for a Saviour.

Salvation is not the subject of this thread,the verses have been mentioned already that our Lord proclaimed about those who accused him.

revrobor · Apr 30, 2015

Those who turn their back on the Holy Spirit drawing them to salvation ARE calling the Holy Spirit a liar and thus blaspheming Him. Why is it you cannot see that this is the only unforgivable sin? (FWIW I was baptized a Believer in 1949 at the First Baptist Church in Pomona, CA. I am just not now affiliated with any denominational church.)

Need some opinions on the "Unpardonable Sin".

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