Is Scripture MISSING Dogmas? (2)

ThatTrueLight

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Jesus was quite earthy. God created our bodies: He's not squeamish or prudish about them the way man can be. Shame came in with the Fall, after all. Either way, we're to partake of Him; and He must remain in us.

So there's no problem for you to think that you're eating God's flesh when we're told in His own word to no longer think of Him in the flesh?

This is why John calls Him the WORD in John 1, and this is why Peter would say that He alone has the WORDS of eternal life in John 6.. because He is the WORD made flesh and we DO feast on His word when we do remember Him in His death til He comes..

We don't EAT Him til He comes.. we REMEMBER Him in His death til He comes..
 
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Albion

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So there's no problem for you to think that you're eating God's flesh when we're told in His own word to no longer think of Him in the flesh?

This is why John calls Him the WORD in John 1, and this is why Peter would say that He alone has the WORDS of eternal life in John 6.. because He is the WORD made flesh and we DO feast on His word when we do remember Him in His death til He comes..

We don't EAT Him til He comes.. we REMEMBER Him in His death til He comes..

This is not an argument about dogmas that are missing from Scripture, however. Both of you are staking out your respective POVs on the basis of your understanding of Scripture. In fhansen's case, he disavows such reliance, but goes to it every time it's necessary to try to prove any doctrine.
 
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ThatTrueLight

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This is not an argument about dogmas that are missing from Scripture, however. Both of you are staking out your respective POVs on the basis of your understanding of Scripture. In fhansen's case, he disavows such reliance, but goes to it every time it's necessary to try to prove any doctrine.

And what do you do if you don't share views based upon your own understanding of scripture?

As for for the argument of dogmas.. to me it's all relative but I can understand if you'd like to narrow it down a bit. :)
 
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fhansen

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What a strange question. Without an authority, we have no bearings...but more than that, almost every last Christian denomination, out of thousands of them, does accept this one as God's own word!
Yes, as we do-and we’re in agreement that an authority is necessary as well. The problem is that they don't agree over what God's own word is saying!
That's not really up for grabs. YOUR point, however, is that we should still look elsewhere, and I wonder what conceivable argument you could have for suggesting that. What you've said is that not every one of us agrees on the meaning of every last part of Scripture (although we do agree on almost all that could be considered essential to our faith). But what is better?
Very well. Then your argument is purely sectarian. It is not an argument on behalf of Tradition, even though you put it that way every time Scripture is criticized.
No, the reason the CC doesn’t have different interpretations is that she’s resolved differences over the years based on Scripture and Tradition, the two complimenting each other, while relying on the HS that she’s got it right, that she’s kept true to the faith.
And that argument of yours is essentially the same one as advanced by the Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Armstrongites, etc. etc. The upshot is that the Scriptures aren't lacking anything, but everyone should just follow whatever your own denomination says to believe, and for no reason other than that it says so.
The other upshot is that Scripture doesn't lack anything, but man does, and so he ends up following his own, sometimes faulty thinking/interpreting, anyway. Geez, maybe there's a need for the gift of infallibility after all?

Albion, it’s OK for a religion to be true, to be exclusively true. IOW it’s OK, and not at all necessarily egotistical, for a Christian to believe that Christianity is the only way. It’s OK to be right, while it’s not OK to gloat about it. And for the same reasons it’s OK for any one denomination, church, or whatever to hold the faith in a more correct manner. It’s OK for JWs to be wrong-even if they object passionately, based on their own interpretation of Scripture. Truth is supreme.
 
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Souldier

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Thanks again. My faith group was discussing that verse last Tuesday night.

But my question to you is, what dogmas are in the bible?

Maybe you can answer that question by asking yourself- what dogma is souldier missing? If you cant think of any then you must assume that my bible is sufficient to guide me in all truth. Is there some dogma that i am missing? Will the holy spirit not teach me all things if i keep the words of Christ and of Paul who Christ sent to teach me? What do you know that i do not? Anything? If not then why are we even discussing it? The answer is already there.
 
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tadoflamb

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Maybe you can answer that question by asking yourself- what dogma is souldier missing? If you cant think of any then you must assume that my bible is sufficient to guide me in all truth. Is there some dogma that i am missing? Will the holy spirit not teach me all things if i keep the words of Christ and of Paul who Christ sent to teach me? What do you know that i do not? Anything? If not then why are we even discussing it? The answer is already there.

How can I answer that when I don't know what dogmas you believe? Is your belief that your bible is sufficient to guide you in all truth dogmatic? If so, where is that in the bible?
 
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Souldier

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Is your belief that your bible is sufficient to guide you in all truth dogmatic? If so, where is that in the bible?

It is indeed in the bible.

Jeremiah prophesied that God would put his laws in our minds and hearts. Jesus said if we love him then we would keep his words and then the holy spirit would teach us all things, and that seems to be a fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecy. Likewise John says if we keep what we heard in the beginning (the doctrine of Christ) then we need no teacher because the anointing will teach us all things. And thats what Christ promised, and what Jeremiah foretold. Jesus said His sheep know his voice and follow it, and again its saying the same thing.
 
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Albion

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Yes, as we do-and we’re in agreement that an authority is necessary as well. The problem is that they don't agree over what God's own word is saying!
And your churches don't agree on what "Tradition" is saying, so there is no practical difference! And there is, therefore, no benefit or improvement by going to "Tradition."

But you have already made it clear that you don't adhere to Tradition, anyway, but instead to whatever your own denomination decides. That's your authority.

The other upshot is that Scripture doesn't lack anything, but man does, and so he ends up following his own, sometimes faulty thinking/interpreting, anyway.
So....? How does that make Scripture defective? It doesn't.

The conclusion is obvious. We have the word of God to go by. There is nothing that could be more authoritative. than what God has revealed to mankind. All we need to do is understand it correctly.

Why it is that you don't make that your answer, rather than turning instead to what some men have speculated, remains unexplained.
 
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topcare

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It is indeed in the bible.

Jeremiah prophesied that God would put his laws in our minds and hearts. Jesus said if we love him then we would keep his words and then the holy spirit would teach us all things, and that seems to be a fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecy. Likewise John says if we keep what we heard in the beginning (the doctrine of Christ) then we need no teacher because the anointing will teach us all things. And thats what Christ promised, and what Jeremiah foretold. Jesus said His sheep know his voice and follow it, and again its saying the same thing.

Actually there is no where in the Bible were it says to follow the Bible alone and exclusively. The idea of Bible alone is a tradition of man, not from God
 
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Souldier

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Actually there is no where in the Bible were it says to follow the Bible alone and exclusively. The idea of Bible alone is a tradition of man, not from God


Just because you dont see it doesnt mean its not there. It is, in fact, written.
 
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fhansen

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In fhansen's case, he disavows such reliance, but goes to it every time it's necessary to try to prove any doctrine.
Partially because you’ll only accept Scriptural proof, but I’ve appealed to the value of and the need for a historical legacy back to the beginnings as well, together with the striking theological similarities to the history of the east where tradition is likewise embraced, even after centuries of isolation from each other. But the Church has always used both Scripture, along with Tradition, to support her positions. In any case the CC recognizes and freely acknowledges that her understanding of the faith is from a twofold source, and not by Scripture alone, as many Protestants, including SS offshoots such as Armstrongites and JWs, receive their’s. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE
One common source. . .
80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".41
. . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42
"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44
 
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Albion

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Partially because you’ll only accept Scriptural proof,
I find that a very weak justification for constantly pointing to Scripture while denouncing others for relying upon it. Whenever anyone wants to persuade someone else of a different POV, he introduces something that is NOT already in dispute, and you never seem to turn to legends or the musings of some old saint when trying to prove any doctrine. If that is what persuades you, it follows that you'd be showing the rest of us why it should persuade us also.


but I’ve appealed to the value of and the need for a historical legacy back to the beginnings as well
You've appealed to past history, I agree, but not with much more than "it's always been believed--trust me--so you know it has to be so." That's just a claim; it has no substance unless you show that X is indeed what the church always and ever believed and then, that there is some reason why we should consider this to make any difference at all.

With the Bible, we agree that it's of God. Even if you showed that X was always believed, everywhere, and by all, that doesn't make it a dogma, not any more than if you showed that candles always were used in church so God is saying we must profess a belief in them.

But the Church has always used both Scripture, along with Tradition, to support her positions.
And you are speaking of your own denomination, I assume. But we are not trying to outdo each other for "One true church denomination" here; we are speaking of what it is that contains God's will and intentions, regardless of one's affiliations.

In any case the CC recognizes and freely acknowledges that her understanding of the faith is from a twofold source, and not by Scripture alone, as many Protestants, including SS offshoots such as Armstrongites and JWs, receive their’s.
That isn't the point, though. All of these operate from a sectarian perspective--"We are the only true church so whatever we decree IS the truth, period." That means that neither Scripture nor Tradition nor anything else is really what justifies such church bodies. They are self-justifying.
 
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Souldier

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Deut 8:2 And you shall remember that the Lord your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not. 3 So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord. 4 Your garments did not wear out on you, nor did your foot swell these forty years. 5 You should know in your heart that as a man chastens his son, so the Lord your God chastens you.


Matthew 4:4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”[a]






John 6:6 New King James Version (NKJV)

Feeding the Five Thousand
6 After these things Jesus went over the Sea of Galilee, which is the Sea of Tiberias. 2 Then a great multitude followed Him, because they saw His signs which He performed on those who were diseased. 3 And Jesus went up on the mountain, and there He sat with His disciples.

4 Now the Passover, a feast of the Jews, was near. 5 Then Jesus lifted up His eyes, and seeing a great multitude coming toward Him, He said to Philip, “Where shall we buy bread, that these may eat?” 6 But this He said to test him, for He Himself knew what He would do.


26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’[e]


8 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

3 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed,[h] and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”


61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life
 
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Souldier

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Mathew 16:5 Now when His disciples had come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread. 6 Then Jesus said to them, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.”

7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “It is because we have taken no bread.”

8 But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, “O you of little faith, why do you reason among yourselves because you have brought no bread?[c] 9 Do you not yet understand, or remember the five loaves of the five thousand and how many baskets you took up? 10 Nor the seven loaves of the four thousand and how many large baskets you took up? 11 How is it you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread?—but to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 12 Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
 
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Souldier

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So we see that the bread from heaven, i.e., the bread of life, is the very words that christ teaches, it is his doctrine itself.


Mathew 16:12 Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees.


John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’[e]

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life
 
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Partially because you’ll only accept Scriptural proof, but I’ve appealed to the value of and the need for a historical legacy back to the beginnings as well, together with the striking theological similarities to the history of the east where tradition is likewise embraced, even after centuries of isolation from each other. But the Church has always used both Scripture, along with Tradition, to support her positions. In any case the CC recognizes and freely acknowledges that her understanding of the faith is from a twofold source, and not by Scripture alone, as many Protestants, including SS offshoots such as Armstrongites and JWs, receive their’s. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE
One common source. . .
80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".41
. . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42
"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44
I honestly do not think they will ever understand verifiable orthodox Christianity :(
 
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Souldier

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For me tradition is something i never had and im too old for it now. Life has humbled me and left me scarred. I have the scriptures and i cling to hope in the Lord. Division bothers me because it erodes my faith, and that after life has already beaten me down and left me for dead. Yet i cling to hope in the Lord. People wonder why i have struggles, maybe its because life is a struggle for some of us.
 
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