Israel & the Church. See the Difference?

bibletruth469 said:

Not true. I have not changed what I have said. Please go back and read my 1 st and second post. I explain in detail.

Recap: God is not finished with His people ,the Jews. They are traced all the way back to Abraham, issaic and Jacob and then of course, the 12 tribes of Israel.

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The issue is not "the Jews." That would be respect of persons.

Rather, and this is what confuses both sides of this issue, the issue is the idea or concept of a nation or people as an agency through which God would restore His dominion over the Earth.

This is how Paul can say that Israel has been cut off and yet go preach to a Jew.

The one is the idea of a people, a nation, an agency.

The other is the idea of a person; in this case, a Jew.

This distinction was lost and so screwed up so long that said screw up became the truth, Paul's Romans 11:25 warning having become the reality - the ignorance of which gave way to this wisdom in its own conceits.

One so engrained in so many that it eventually led to the idea of "one nation under God" simply out of the above error.

So much so that we now simply cannot seem to get it out of our psyche that Scripture's "My people" was and remains a reference to that People whom God FORCED the great Pharoah of Egypt to "let go!"

The Gentiles are NOT A NATION, rather "a people" of MANY nations. THAT is what HE ordained. Its right there in Genesis 11.

Just as its right there in Genesis and Exodus about "a peculiar people over all the nations of the earth for I AN The LORD."

Just as it is in Malachi's "For I AM The LORD; I CHANGE NOT."

Just as it is in the letter TO THE HEBREWS - "JESUS Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever."

JESUS - FOR He SHALL save HIS People...

And save said people He shall...

bibletruth469 said:

Yes, God has preserved the Jewish bloodline even to this day. Their is a messianic Jew, they keep the bloodline, however become part of the body of Christ once they become saved.

Once again, 2 separate groups, Jews and gentile s. These groups exist today. Again, every believer, Jew and gentile alike are part of the body of Christ. The unbelievers, Jews and gentiles, god has a different program for them and it will be realized after the rapture of the church. The tribulation period will occur and God will redirect His focus back to the Jews.

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God has preserved many people groups in the modern world.
The Cherokee of my state are just one example. They have their own culture and their own land.

What you are proposing stands in stark opposition to God's Word.

Both the Apostles Peter and Paul plainly state that God is not a respecter of persons.

Christ has broken down the middle wall of separation between all peoples. You are attempting to rebuild it.

There is no difference today between a descendant of Jacob living in the modern nation of Israel and a naked native living in the jungle of the Amazon rain forest.

Both of them need Jesus Christ.


How can you oppose what is written in God's Word to defend your doctrine?

"God's grace has been active since Adam and Eve fell to sin. It's in Genesis 3:15 where God first promises Christ"


This truth needs to be understood ....without the Lord's "grace" [allowance] no man would be saved

He has not, does not, and will not change His course on this matter ... the same for all from Genesis to Revelation

All before us and including up to this very day His grace is in effect for any that will turn to Him .... even during the coming tribulation will His grace and salvation be available [Revelation 3:16-22; 14:12-13]

Why anyone would argue over this matter is a very strange thing



On Israel and the "church" .... the same in matters of salvation, but different in matters of national identity .... neither has changed and will not [Isaiah 11; Ezekiel 36]

The Lord has set Israel out as a nation among the Gentiles for His purposes .... and He makes this very clear .... not for Israel's sake, but for His own

Why would any argue with Him

If you are one who does, you are taking Him on .... and this will not bode well for you

And at the same time this behavior will warp your own understanding of the prophetic scriptures .... and this kind of thing will lead to all sorts of distorted man made dogmas



The evidence .... and this is just one example of many in scripture:

Ezekiel
36:17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.

36:18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:

36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.

36:20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.

36:21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.

36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Straightshot said:

"God's grace has been active since Adam and Eve fell to sin. It's in Genesis 3:15 where God first promises Christ"


This truth needs to be understood ....without the Lord's "grace" [allowance] no man would be saved

He has not, does not, and will not change His course on this matter ... the same for all from Genesis to Revelation

All before us and including up to this very day His grace is in effect for any that will turn to Him .... even during the coming tribulation will His grace and salvation be available [Revelation 3:16-22; 14:12-13]

Why anyone would argue over this matter is a very strange thing



On Israel and the "church" .... the same in matters of salvation, but different in matters of national identity .... neither has changed and will not [Isaiah 11; Ezekiel 36]

The Lord has set Israel out as a nation among the Gentiles for His purposes .... and He makes this very clear .... not for Israel's sake, but for His own

Why would any argue with Him

If you are one who does, you are taking Him on .... and this will not bode well for you

And at the same this behavior will warp your own understanding of the prophetic scriptures .... and this kind of thing will lead to all sorts of distorted man made dogmas

The evidence .... and this is just one example of many in scripture:

Ezekiel
36:17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.

36:18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:

36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.

36:20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.

36:21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.

36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

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The point some of us are attempting to make is that even though King David was a murderer, he knew of the Messiah that was to come.
He even wrote some of the same words that Christ would speak on the Cross.

Therefore, David humbled himself and begged God for the mercy that would come from the Grace of Jesus Christ.

We know that David was condemned by the Law. Like all men made of rotten flesh, he was a sinner that cannot be saved by the Law.

He knew of the Seed that would come.

It had been foretold in the Book of Genesis as "the Seed of the woman".





Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(Does this also apply to King David?)

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


.

BABerean2 said:

God has preserved many people groups in the modern world.
The Cherokee of my state are just one example. They have their own culture and their own land.

What you are proposing stands in stark opposition to God's Word.

Both the Apostles Peter and Paul plainly state that God is not a respecter of persons.

Christ has broken down the middle wall of separation between all peoples. You are attempting to rebuild it.

There is no difference today between a descendant of Jacob living in the modern nation of Israel and a naked native living in the jungle of the Amazon rain forest.

Both of them need Jesus Christ.


How can you oppose what is written in God's Word to defend your doctrine?

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"They have their own culture and their own land" - does your "privelege" not allow you to see how ridiculous that sounds?

God preserved them?

Not by my Bible He did not.

One the one hand, per Genesis 11 and Romans 1, He gave up all the Gentile nations to their own path.

On the other, He began a people who was to be a witness of His salvation on this Earth.

A people through whom the Savior of said salvation on this Earth their Law and the Prophets did say would come.

At some point He temporarily set aside His plan and purpose as to the redemption of this Earth.

That He might begin an agency, a people, a New creature towards His Plan and Purpose as to His reconciling of those fallen Heavenly places back unto Himself.

That in the Dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather both dominions - Heaven and Earth - in one, even in His Son.

But, the Earthly aspect - Rom. 11:25-29 - was concluded by "the church" not the case.

This "church," wise in its own conceits concluded itself Israel...

And with that self-imposed privelege we begin to see the mass persecution of the Jew.

Following that, the peoples of the Americas. After all, "they are heathen; not like us good Christians."

The extreme of Dispensationalism long since buried under the ignorance "of this mystery" its resulting wisdom in its own conceits.

You do not know of what you speak.

You simply do not.

Straightshot said:

The Lord has set Israel out as a nation among the Gentiles for His purposes .... and He makes this very clear .... not for Israel's sake, but for His own

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However, Today's National Israel is a Nation OF gentiles. Secular. Multi Ethnic. Democratic, not theocratic.

Nothing God ordained or set apart about them.

They have no verifiable link to the pre desolation Hebrew Nation of the Bible.
Not religiously, not genetically, not politically.

Some are attempting to take the branches broken off from the Olive Tree and claim that these are the Olive Tree.

Even though Romans chapter 11 makes it clear that they may be grafted back into the Olive Tree, through faith in Christ.

Some are claiming these branches need a rebuilt temple and renewed animal sacrifices to get back into a correct relationship with God.

This is mainly being done by changing the word "so", which is an adverb of manner, into "then" , which is an adverb of time, in Romans 11:26.

Some are replacing one word with another in order to replace the Olive Tree with the branches that have been broken off.

And then these same people claim that others are teaching "Replacement Theology".


Rom_9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Gal_6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Heb_8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


The modern descendants of Jacob do not need a rebuilt temple with renewed animal sacrifices.

They need to accept the ultimate sacrifice that has already been made.

..

And the scriptures tell us clearly in a zillion different places that Israel shall be saved in the end and know the LORD..

Men simply can't deal with it. And I agree with the premise mentioned here that its roots are because the god of this evil world hates Israel and has deceived countless others to do the same regardless if they're aware of it or not.

The LORD says that He shall never leave nor forsake Israel.. and that's exactly what men teach here.. that He did just that.

Israel is:
King Jesus Christ and His JEWISH Followers (with Gentiles Grafted in)

Israel is not:
Christ rejectors of ANY stripe

He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and JACOB.. and men can't deal with it because they bought into the lie that the LORD has forsaken (Jacob) Israel.

Maybe He will forsake everyone else too. You know, since we're so much better than they are.

Don't forget to thank the LORD when you're all praying so piously that you're not like those Israelites..

I'm sure He'll understand.

LastSeven said:

Of course, and the Bible is not wrong, nor are we ignoring it. We just have a different understanding of who are Israel.

You think those prophecies apply to a secular people who have rejected Christ and live in that country in the middle east. We think those prophecies apply to those who have accepted Christ.

All you have to do to understand where we're coming form, is change your definition of Israel to match that which scripture tells us.

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Then obviously you have no idea who Israel is.. but by all means show everyone here who the real Israel is so we don't confuse them with the Israel in front of your nose just about every day.

BABerean2 said:

Some are attempting to take the branches broken off from the Olive Tree and claim that these are the Olive Tree.
.

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BINGO!

ThatTrueLight said:

but by all means show everyone here who the real Israel is so we don't confuse them with the Israel in front of your nose just about every day.

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I already did that for you:

parousia70 said:

Israel is:
King Jesus Christ and His JEWISH Followers (with Gentiles Grafted in)

Israel is not:
Christ rejectors of ANY stripe

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the "Israel in front of our noses" as you say, the Multi ethnic secular democracy that currently occupies the land in Palestine, has no verifiable relationship to the pre desolation Hebrew theocracy that once shared the same name.

Not Religiously, not genetically, not politically.

Today's Modern Secular, multi ethnic "Israel" is not the Theocratic Hebrew Israel of Scripture.