Proving Paul is Pro-Torah

Hoshiyya

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Yes. I remember how the only sense I could make of all the Pro-Torah statements was: Torah USED TO BE GOOD but now it's bad.

Praise YHWH for MJs and this forum where I learned the truth about Torah.

The rewards of actioning a mitzvah are such a blessing.

It's not works for salvation, it's rewards for obedience (Galatians 6:7).

And many mitzvahs are a reward of themselves. Shabbat is a blessing, and doesn't even require a special reward for keeping, though I think we often do get that.
 
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yonah_mishael

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"Paul", whether the person or an attributed author-name, is what matters. For all we know a purple alien wrote them, it doesn't matter. The point is what these epistles, found in Bibles all over the world, are saying. AND, if Peter or Jude's epistles had the same issues that Paul's have, we would have to adress those as well.

I couldn't disagree more. I think it's very important to be aware of the author and have the best authority for determining if it actually came from the author or not. If a letter claims to have come from Paul but didn't, there were many other pseudonymous (spurious) letters purported to have come from Paul in the same period. So, why should this anonymous letter be chosen over another? Because the Church chose it? I think it's super-important to interpret Paul through Paul and not through someone else's interpretation of Paul.
 
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Hoshiyya

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I couldn't disagree more. I think it's very important to be aware of the author and have the best authority for determining if it actually came from the author or not. If a letter claims to have come from Paul but didn't, there were many other pseudonymous (spurious) letters purported to have come from Paul in the same period. So, why should this anonymous letter be chosen over another? Because the Church chose it? I think it's super-important to interpret Paul through Paul and not through someone else's interpretation of Paul.

We have these Biblical epistles, usually called Pauline, and their significance relative to MJ is, among other things, that they problematize the question of Torah-observance in such a way that f.ex 1 Peter does not.
Christians aren't using "epistle to the Laodiceans" to prove anything, so why bring it up. It is not on the table.

To give an admittedly imperfect comparison:
In Hermeticism, we have a lot of writings attributed to Hermes Trismegistus which ultimately just refers to Hermes the Egyptian god who we believe never existed.
So it is not the author, but the writings, that matter for those who study Hermeticism. Maybe ten different people wrote the Hermetic texts, yet they are still a whole in effect.
 
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visionary

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As per Lulav... This is the thread that this post needs to be in.

Did Paul personally practice and publicly Teach the Law of Moses after his shift away from the Rabbinical Oral Laws of the Pharisees to an acceptance of Yeshua as the Messiah?

Let us take a look at Paul's writings to see if there is an answer to this question!

We know that Paul participated in what is called a Nazarite Vow in the Temple of Jerusalem in Acts 21:23-24 and Acts 18:18

The Nazarite Vow is based on Torah Numbers 6:13-21.

We know that Paul observed the Holy Shabbat and in fact taught many people on Shabbat in Acts 13:42 and Acts 17:2 and Acts 18:4. The Shabbat is based on Torah Deuteronomy 5:12-15.

We know that Paul kept the Feast of Passover in 1 Corinthians 5:8 from Torah Deuteronomy 16:1-8.

We know that Paul kept the Festival of Shavuot (Pentecost) in Jerusalem in Acts 20:16!

We know Paul believed in the Words of the Prophets in Ephesians 4:25 - Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth to his neighbor: for we are members one of another! Paul was quoting Prophet Zechariah 8:16 - These are the things that you shall do; speak ye every man the truth to his neighbor; execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates!

We know Paul tried to imitate Yeshua and required his followers to do the same! Yeshua was a Torah Keeper! 1 Corinthians 11:1 - Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Messiah!

We know that Paul believed in the teachings of the Proverbs in Ephesians 6:1 - Children, obey your parents in God: for this is right. - From Proverbs 6:20 - My son, keep thy fathers commandment, and forsake not the law of thy mother. Proverbs 23:22 - Hearken unto thy father that begat thee, and despise not thy mother when she is old.

We know that Paul believed in observing the Ten Commandments that were given to Moses at Mount Sinai in Ephesians 6:2 - Honor thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with a promise.

We know that Paul called the Law of God, sound teaching! 1 Timothy 1:8-11 - but we know that the Law is good, if a man use it Lawfully.

We know that Paul told some of his followers to be present for the public readings of the Torah and to listen to its words in 1 Timothy 4:13 - Til I come, give attendance to Reading, to Exhortation, to Doctrine! .... and the only scripture they had to exhort from, read, and to gather doctrine from was the Old Testament.

We know that Paul believed in the Torah's teaching that we must not cheat each other out of the work we do to earn out wages in 1 Timothy 5:18 - For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The laborer is worthy of his reward. This is from Torah Deuteronomy 25:4 - Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.

We know that Paul called the teachings of the Torah teacher Yeshua, sound words, and that if anyone teaches a different doctrine other than what Yeshua taught, that he is conceded and understands nothing. We know that Yeshua taught, the Written Torah! - 1 Timothy 6:3 - If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of Yeshua the Messiah, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness.

We know that Paul referred to Moses and his Teachings as Truth in 2 Timothy 3:8 - Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the Truth: mean of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith!

We know that Paul called the Torah, sound doctrine in 2 Timothy 4:3 - For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears! (as he also supported this in 1 Timothy 1:8-11)

We know that Paul called the Torah, the Word of Truth in 2 Timothy 2:15 - Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth!

We know that Paul called the Tanach Sacred Writings, and that they contain wisdom for every aspect for everyday life in 2 Timothy 3:16 - All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness!

We know that Paul excepted the teachings of the Torah in regards to its instructions against Idolatry and the worship of mere men in Acts 14:12-18 - And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. Which when the Apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, and saying , sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein: who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.

Nevertheless, He left not himself without witness, in that He did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness! And with these sayings scarce restrained they the people, that they had not done sacrifice unto them! Deuteronomy 32:21 - They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not god; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. And From Jeremiah 8:19 - Behold the voice of the cry of the daughter of my people because of them that dwell in a far country: Is not God in Zion? is not her king in her? Why have they provoked me to anger with their graven images, and with strange vanities? And from Jeremiah 14:22 - Are there any among the vanities of the Gentiles that can cause rain? or can the heavens give showers? art not thou He, O God our God? therefore we will wait upon thee: for thou hast made all these things.

We know that Paul believed in and taught the Torah Laws regarding consuming blood in Acts 15:29 - That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. ~ (from Torah Leviticus 17:10 - And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of Blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people and Leviticus 17:13 - And whatsoever man there be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, which hunteth and catcheth any beast or fowl that may be eaten; he shall even pour out the Blood thereof, and cover it with dust.)

We know that Paul taught against lewdness and fornication from Leviticus chapter 18 in 1 Corinthians 6:18 - Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

We know Paul taught the Kashrut or Kosher Laws according to Leviticus chapter 11 concerning the clean and unclean in I Timothy 4:1-5, where Paul tells Timothy that "in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils." One mark of these deluded apostates is "commanding to abstain from meats which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving by those who know the truth." Paul continues: "For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving. For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer." ~ (The Context was those meats God had created to be received as food, not just any meats!)

We know that Paul had false accusers saying that he was breaking the Torah and violating the words of the prophet Ezekiel 44:7 - In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations, in Acts 21:27-28 - And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him, Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men everywhere against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.

We know that Paul believed in the Torah and in its teaching regarding honor due to the Kohanim in Acts 23:5 - Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people. ~ (From Torah Exodus 22: 28)

We know that Paul believed and trusted in the authority and validity of all the Written Torah commandments and the prophets in Acts 24:14 - But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are Written in the Law and in the Prophets!

We know the Paul Believed that the Written Torah Commandments had to be upheld, maintained and established in Romans 3:31 - Do we then make void the Law through Faith? God Forbid; Yea, we establish the Law! (Paul even used the greek word "histémi," strongs 2476 - to make to stand, to stand)

We know that Paul accepted the Decalogue of God and its commandments against adultery, murder, stealing, coveting, and the Law of Leviticus 19:18 that sums up the Torah as loving your neighbor as yourself in Romans 13:8-9 - Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

We know that Paul called the Writings of the Prophets Scripture, and that this scripture was able to lead the gentiles or the nations into obedience and trusting faith in God in Romans 16:25-27 - Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Yeshua the Messiah, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting Father, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Yeshua Messiah forever. Amen.

We know that Paul called the writings of the Prophet Isaiah the Law and he accepted his teaching in 1 Corinthians 14:21 - In the Law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith God. Taken from Isaiah 28:11 - For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

We know that Paul believed that we must try to be separate, holy and walk in purity, and the only way to accomplish this is through observance of that which is written in the Law of Moses as he pointed out in 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 - Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15) And what concord hath Messiah with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16) And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17) Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith God, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.18) And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Almighty. 2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (Paul also Taught that the message of Yeshua was one and the same as the authority of the written Torah!)

We also know that Paul applied the Law in 2 Corinthians 13:1 - This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. ~ (from Torah Deuteronomy 19:15 - One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

It would appear from this comprehensive intensive study in the life and Teachings of Paul the Apostle that He was a Teacher of, and Believer in, all that was Written in the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings!

It also appears that Paul's views line up perfectly with the overall structure of scriptural Truth that has been passed down to all future generations of Israelites! In other words, taking in account this entire study from Moses to the Prophets and the Writings, to Yeshua's words, to the written documents of Yeshua's talmidim (disciples) including John, and Yeshua's own brother James and his letter!

It is obvious that Paul was teaching his followers to believe in what we call today, the Tanach, The Torah, The Prophets, and the Writings! It also appears from Paul himself that he could never deny that Yeshua was the full embodiment of these eternal words according to 1 Corinthians 12:3- Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Yeshua accursed: and that no man can say that Yeshua is the Messiah, but by the Holy Spirit. And Hebrews 1:2 - Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds!
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Truthfrees

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As per Lulav... This is the thread that this post needs to be in.

Did Paul personally practice and publicly Teach the Law of Moses after his shift away from the Rabbinical Oral Laws of the Pharisees to an acceptance of Yeshua as the Messiah?

Let us take a look at Paul's writings to see if there is an answer to this question!

We know that Paul participated in what is called a Nazarite Vow in the Temple of Jerusalem in Acts 21:23-24 and Acts 18:18

The Nazarite Vow is based on Torah Numbers 6:13-21.

We know that Paul observed the Holy Shabbat and in fact taught many people on Shabbat in Acts 13:42 and Acts 17:2 and Acts 18:4. The Shabbat is based on Torah Deuteronomy 5:12-15.

We know that Paul kept the Feast of Passover in 1 Corinthians 5:8 from Torah Deuteronomy 16:1-8.

We know that Paul kept the Festival of Shavuot (Pentecost) in Jerusalem in Acts 20:16!

We know Paul believed in the Words of the Prophets in Ephesians 4:25 - Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth to his neighbor: for we are members one of another! Paul was quoting Prophet Zechariah 8:16 - These are the things that you shall do; speak ye every man the truth to his neighbor; execute the judgment of truth and peace in your gates!

We know Paul tried to imitate Yeshua and required his followers to do the same! Yeshua was a Torah Keeper! 1 Corinthians 11:1 - Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Messiah!

We know that Paul believed in the teachings of the Proverbs in Ephesians 6:1 - Children, obey your parents in God: for this is right. - From Proverbs 6:20 - My son, keep thy fathers commandment, and forsake not the law of thy mother. Proverbs 23:22 - Hearken unto thy father that begat thee, and despise not thy mother when she is old.

We know that Paul believed in observing the Ten Commandments that were given to Moses at Mount Sinai in Ephesians 6:2 - Honor thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with a promise.

We know that Paul called the Law of God, sound teaching! 1 Timothy 1:8-11 - but we know that the Law is good, if a man use it Lawfully.

We know that Paul told some of his followers to be present for the public readings of the Torah and to listen to its words in 1 Timothy 4:13 - Til I come, give attendance to Reading, to Exhortation, to Doctrine! .... and the only scripture they had to exhort from, read, and to gather doctrine from was the Old Testament.

We know that Paul believed in the Torah's teaching that we must not cheat each other out of the work we do to earn out wages in 1 Timothy 5:18 - For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The laborer is worthy of his reward. This is from Torah Deuteronomy 25:4 - Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.

We know that Paul called the teachings of the Torah teacher Yeshua, sound words, and that if anyone teaches a different doctrine other than what Yeshua taught, that he is conceded and understands nothing. We know that Yeshua taught, the Written Torah! - 1 Timothy 6:3 - If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of Yeshua the Messiah, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness.

We know that Paul referred to Moses and his Teachings as Truth in 2 Timothy 3:8 - Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the Truth: mean of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith!

We know that Paul called the Torah, sound doctrine in 2 Timothy 4:3 - For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears! (as he also supported this in 1 Timothy 1:8-11)

We know that Paul called the Torah, the Word of Truth in 2 Timothy 2:15 - Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth!

We know that Paul called the Tanach Sacred Writings, and that they contain wisdom for every aspect for everyday life in 2 Timothy 3:16 - All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness!

We know that Paul excepted the teachings of the Torah in regards to its instructions against Idolatry and the worship of mere men in Acts 14:12-18 - And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. Which when the Apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, and saying , sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein: who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.

Nevertheless, He left not himself without witness, in that He did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness! And with these sayings scarce restrained they the people, that they had not done sacrifice unto them! Deuteronomy 32:21 - They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not god; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. And From Jeremiah 8:19 - Behold the voice of the cry of the daughter of my people because of them that dwell in a far country: Is not God in Zion? is not her king in her? Why have they provoked me to anger with their graven images, and with strange vanities? And from Jeremiah 14:22 - Are there any among the vanities of the Gentiles that can cause rain? or can the heavens give showers? art not thou He, O God our God? therefore we will wait upon thee: for thou hast made all these things.

We know that Paul believed in and taught the Torah Laws regarding consuming blood in Acts 15:29 - That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. ~ (from Torah Leviticus 17:10 - And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of Blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people and Leviticus 17:13 - And whatsoever man there be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, which hunteth and catcheth any beast or fowl that may be eaten; he shall even pour out the Blood thereof, and cover it with dust.)

We know that Paul taught against lewdness and fornication from Leviticus chapter 18 in 1 Corinthians 6:18 - Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

We know Paul taught the Kashrut or Kosher Laws according to Leviticus chapter 11 concerning the clean and unclean in I Timothy 4:1-5, where Paul tells Timothy that "in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils." One mark of these deluded apostates is "commanding to abstain from meats which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving by those who know the truth." Paul continues: "For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving. For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer." ~ (The Context was those meats God had created to be received as food, not just any meats!)

We know that Paul had false accusers saying that he was breaking the Torah and violating the words of the prophet Ezekiel 44:7 - In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations, in Acts 21:27-28 - And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him, Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men everywhere against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.

We know that Paul believed in the Torah and in its teaching regarding honor due to the Kohanim in Acts 23:5 - Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people. ~ (From Torah Exodus 22: 28)

We know that Paul believed and trusted in the authority and validity of all the Written Torah commandments and the prophets in Acts 24:14 - But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are Written in the Law and in the Prophets!

We know the Paul Believed that the Written Torah Commandments had to be upheld, maintained and established in Romans 3:31 - Do we then make void the Law through Faith? God Forbid; Yea, we establish the Law! (Paul even used the greek word "histémi," strongs 2476 - to make to stand, to stand)

We know that Paul accepted the Decalogue of God and its commandments against adultery, murder, stealing, coveting, and the Law of Leviticus 19:18 that sums up the Torah as loving your neighbor as yourself in Romans 13:8-9 - Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

We know that Paul called the Writings of the Prophets Scripture, and that this scripture was able to lead the gentiles or the nations into obedience and trusting faith in God in Romans 16:25-27 - Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Yeshua the Messiah, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting Father, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Yeshua Messiah forever. Amen.

We know that Paul called the writings of the Prophet Isaiah the Law and he accepted his teaching in 1 Corinthians 14:21 - In the Law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith God. Taken from Isaiah 28:11 - For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

We know that Paul believed that we must try to be separate, holy and walk in purity, and the only way to accomplish this is through observance of that which is written in the Law of Moses as he pointed out in 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 - Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15) And what concord hath Messiah with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16) And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17) Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith God, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.18) And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Almighty. 2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (Paul also Taught that the message of Yeshua was one and the same as the authority of the written Torah!)

We also know that Paul applied the Law in 2 Corinthians 13:1 - This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. ~ (from Torah Deuteronomy 19:15 - One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

It would appear from this comprehensive intensive study in the life and Teachings of Paul the Apostle that He was a Teacher of, and Believer in, all that was Written in the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings!

It also appears that Paul's views line up perfectly with the overall structure of scriptural Truth that has been passed down to all future generations of Israelites! In other words, taking in account this entire study from Moses to the Prophets and the Writings, to Yeshua's words, to the written documents of Yeshua's talmidim (disciples) including John, and Yeshua's own brother James and his letter!

It is obvious that Paul was teaching his followers to believe in what we call today, the Tanach, The Torah, The Prophets, and the Writings! It also appears from Paul himself that he could never deny that Yeshua was the full embodiment of these eternal words according to 1 Corinthians 12:3- Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Yeshua accursed: and that no man can say that Yeshua is the Messiah, but by the Holy Spirit. And Hebrews 1:2 - Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds!
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:thumbsup: Excellent post. Thanks for posting it here.
 
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Truthfrees

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It seems you have got it all figured out. I don't understand though why you start in the middle. If we are doing a thesis on Paul's theology don't you think it best to start in chronological order? And where was he writing from? Also to consider is the background of who he is speaking to, and since we only have one side, what other writings can we find to understand him better?

Most agree on this Chronology.

Thessalonians 1 Circa 50 CE From Corinth
Thessalonians 2 Circa 51 CE From Corinth

Galatians Circa 53CE (late Spring) From Antioch,Syria

Corinthians 1 Circa 56CE (late winter) From Ephesus
Corinthians 2 Circa 57CE (late summer) From Ephesus

Romans Circa 57 (Winter) From Macedonia

Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Philemon Circa 61-63 CE while a prisoner in Rome

1Timothy, Titus Circa 63CE From Nicopolis, right after being released from prison

2Timothy Circa 67CE After being incarcerated in Rome again
:thumbsup: Excellent information. When we get to the misunderstood phrases, this would be an excellent aid to clarifying Paul's real meaning.

Right now, the canonized order of Pro-Torah writings is easier for Christians to follow.

I don't have it all figured out. Sorry if I gave that impression. I've been praying and studying Paul's writings since I came to this forum a year ago. I've reached the point where I can share what YHWH has revealed to me so far. It's only the beginning. I learn a lot from the others who post their insight. I'm hoping we can do this project together. The only pre-requisite is that a person KNOWS Paul is Pro-Torah. If someone thinks he's anti-Torah, we're projecting in 2 different directions.

Lualv, I think he is going by the order they appear in most Christian Bibles instead of order written. Most scholars agree that Mark was written before Matthew and the Pauline epistles are older than some Gospels, but that is not how they were arranged.

However, by going in chronological order, where he is writing from and the intended audience, we can see how his “theology” may have changed or been shaped.

:thumbsup: Awesome points.

Ah, yes I think you're right, and all of Paul's letters precede the Apostles.
But to understand Paul like he hopes to do I think we should go chronologically and see how his theology develops.

The canon order with the order written next to them.

  1. Romans--------------#6
  2. 1 Corinthians--------#4
  3. 2 Corinthians--------#5
  4. Galatians-------------#3
  5. Ephesians------------#7
  6. Philippians------------#8
  7. Colossians------------#9
  8. 1 Thessalonians------#1
  9. 2 Thessalonians------#2
  10. 1 Timothy-----------#11
  11. 2 Timothy-----------#13
  12. Titus-----------------#12
  13. Philemon-------------#10
:thumbsup: Thank you for this.
 
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Truthfrees

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Another interesting thing I've noticed as I was studying Romans this weekend is Paul continuously commands Gentiles to do Mitzvot (good works, good deeds).

He also gives MANY lists of abominations (things to NOT do).

The mitzvot and the list of sins all come from Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy.

There's way more than the 66 Noahide miztvot.

This alone should be proof that Paul commands Gentiles to do Torah mitzvot.

GOOD WORK: https://www.biblegateway.com/quicks...h=good+work&begin=47&end=73&searchtype=phrase

GOOD WORKS: https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?search=good+workS&version=NKJV&searchtype=phrase

GOOD DEED: https://www.biblegateway.com/quicks...h=good+DEED&begin=47&end=73&searchtype=phrase
 
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Lulav

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:thumbsup: Excellent information. When we get to the misunderstood phrases, this would be an excellent aid to clarifying Paul's real meaning.

Right now, the canonized order of Pro-Torah writings is easier for Christians to follow.

I'm confused, we are in the MJ forum, so why are we worrying about Christians understanding?


Anyway the reason I suggested going in chronological order is because Paul's theology does develop and change and it may be easier to understand him by reading in order. For instance regarding the purpose or meaning of the law.

The background and purpose of the Pauline letters in which this is discussed must be borne in mind. Galatians is written specifically against those who are urging a return to obedience to the Law. One might therefore reasonably expect Paul to be somewhat negative in his presentation of the Law. Paul is arguing that those who press the demands of the Law are wrong; he is therefore arguing against the Law now, in the new dispensation of Christ, but naturally tempted to overstate his argument by claiming that the Law never had any value.

In Romans he no longer faces this situation; it may be that his presentation is calmer and more tolerant towards Judaism. This has immediate consequences for consistency: in Ga 5.2 he can say, 'If you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you', while in Rm 3.2 he accepts that in some way circumcision is of much advantage (does he mean actual circumcision, or merely belonging to Judaism? Is there a real change of mind, perhaps after adverse reaction to his intolerance, or merely emphasis on a different point?)
 
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Truthfrees

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I'm confused, we are in the MJ forum, so why are we worrying about Christians understanding?


Anyway the reason I suggested going in chronological order is because Paul's theology does develop and change and it may be easier to understand him by reading in order. For instance regarding the purpose or meaning of the law.

The background and purpose of the Pauline letters in which this is discussed must be borne in mind. Galatians is written specifically against those who are urging a return to obedience to the Law. One might therefore reasonably expect Paul to be somewhat negative in his presentation of the Law. Paul is arguing that those who press the demands of the Law are wrong; he is therefore arguing against the Law now, in the new dispensation of Christ, but naturally tempted to overstate his argument by claiming that the Law never had any value.

In Romans he no longer faces this situation; it may be that his presentation is calmer and more tolerant towards Judaism. This has immediate consequences for consistency: in Ga 5.2 he can say, 'If you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you', while in Rm 3.2 he accepts that in some way circumcision is of much advantage (does he mean actual circumcision, or merely belonging to Judaism? Is there a real change of mind, perhaps after adverse reaction to his intolerance, or merely emphasis on a different point?)
Why Christians? Because this is Christian Forums, almost every MG was first a Christian, and the strongest anti-Torah teaching comes from Christians not MJs.

:thumbsup: Great insight. If you have more of this type of synopsis please share.

I COULD 100% agree with what you're saying here if you said:

1. Galatians is written specifically against those who are urging SALVATION BY obedience to the Law.

2. He is therefore arguing against WORKING the Law now FOR SALVATION.

This is a great question: "In Rm 3.2 he accepts that in some way circumcision is of much advantage (does he mean actual circumcision, or merely belonging to Judaism? Is there a real change of mind, perhaps after adverse reaction to his intolerance, or merely emphasis on a different point?)"

Are you proposing that reading Paul's letters chronologically will reveal that he progressively looses his anti-law phraseology?

I did a speed read through all these books and here's my synopsis:

1&2 Thessalonians - No Anti, Many Pro-Torah warnings against lawlessness.

Galatians - Very Pro and Anti.

1&2 Corinthians - Mildly Anti, Many Pro-Torah warnings against lawlessness, Many Torah instructions given.

Romans - Very Pro and Anti.

Ephesians - 1 phrase on enmity, Many Pro-Torah warnings against lawlessness of the flesh.

Philippians - 1 phrase against circumcision group, otherwise many Pro-deeds/Mitzvot.

Colossians - 1 section anti-regulations, otherwise many Pro-Torah warnings against lawlessness, many mitzvot/deeds given.

Philemon - Nothing Anti or Pro.

1 Timothy - 2 sections against genealogy and fables, Many warnings against lawlessness, many Torah instructions given.

Titus - 1 warning against circumcision group, 1 warning about law quarrels, Many Pro-Torah instructions given.

2 Timothy - No anti, Many Torah instructions given.

IMO, reading chronologically, he waivers back and forth, just like his misunderstood letters are Anti and Pro dissertations. IOW, every letter with what looks like anti-Torah, also contains MANY Pro-Torah instructions.

:wave:
 
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Lulav

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And that is why we have such trouble; and why I have had to conclude Paul was not Pro Torah, nor was he Anti-Torah, in reality he was both. And I think it comes down to mainly being anti for the Gentiles, but we do have that accusation by many Jewish believers that he was teaching it to Jews as well.

It is a conundrum to say the least.

I think you have to approach Paul already knowing what you believe, if G-ds commandments are good and Yeshua said to keep them, or that they are for the Jews (and Jesus taught that because he was Jewish not a Gentile) and not for the Gentiles to follow.


I believe that they are not for the nations, the heathen but for Israel. That is the separation of the Holy and the profane. The word Gentile (Goyim) used to relate to to all other peoples but the Jews or Israel. The differences were their gods. Israel had the one and only true G-d, the rest of the nations worshiped other false gods.

Paul changed that meaning and thus introduced much confusion. Part of the conversion was to deny or repudiate there was any other G-d but the G-d of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. We can see an early version of this with Ruth.


  • Don't urge me to leave you or to turn back from you. (Allow me to stay with you)
  • Where you go I will go, and (I will follow you anywhere)
  • where you stay I will stay. ( I will live wherever you live)
  • Your people will be my people and ( I will be joined to your people Israel)
  • your God my God. (Your G-d will be my G-d (and no other) )
 
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JeffTheLearner

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Without getting involved in this endless debate with those who are anti-Paul conspiracy folk and have done good and left the Romish denominational daughters, but have in blind zeal presumptuously attributed much error to Paul because of those who purposely distort his words. The problem is also that they still are practicing the horrible habits of their former denominational indoctrination by still exalting Paul's testimony over Messiahs Testimony, including that in TANAK ...but now instead in a contrite, or disparaging manner.

So to them it does seem (within that context) that Paul is opposing both Messiah and TANAK.

My advice is to understand the confines of Paul's statements, and authority, if it seems like there is a contradiction with Paul ...it usually is because there is, but not in contrast to TANAK or Messiah, but in contrast to YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING.

The trick to figuring out many of Paul's teachings is to first understand the context, and then more importantly after that, to find out where or how within scripture the proposed contradiction is reconciled without rendering contradiction ...he does this as a way of opening your understanding on the issue.

..,but remember to keep in mind Who has more authority in their statements.

Anyways I just simply request you all give it a try and not immediately treat my advice with contempt ...I'm just simply attempting to help you, thanks.
 
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rick357

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If Paul is anti Torah it would make him anti Christ since Yeshua says Moses and the prophets witness of Him. Yet Paul is not anti Torah he is however anti the flesh of Adam ever keeping Torah He is pro the life of YHWH living in and through disciples that Torah becomes a living word. Torah is not a list of what we should and should not do but who we are when we lose the self life from Adam in Messiahs death and become one with YHWHs life in his resurection. If Torah is a thing we must make the life inherate from Adam to change to it is a law that shows us the sin and death we received from Him. If Torah is a promise and witness of YHWHs life He has made us to inherate through being one with Him and Messiah it is a immutable law of life as Moses witnessed it to be.
Despite scholars opinion Romans is Paul's Deuteronomy. Here is where He gives law of sin and death and law of life in Messiah Yeshua...same law ...different power source to keep it. It is also why He speaks of gentiles doing the things contained in the law by nature...this is the of YHWH in them not a nature inherent from Adam as the scripture concludes no Adam to be righteous.
Sorry so long and hello all been a few months since I have been here
 
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Lulav

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Without getting involved in this endless debate with those who are anti-Paul conspiracy folk and have done good and left the Romish denominational daughters, but have in blind zeal presumptuously attributed much error to Paul because of those who purposely distort his words. The problem is also that they still are practicing the horrible habits of their former denominational indoctrination by still exalting Paul's testimony over Messiahs Testimony, including that in TANAK ...but now instead in a contrite, or disparaging manner.

So to them it does seem (within that context) that Paul is opposing both Messiah and TANAK.

My advice is to understand the confines of Paul's statements, and authority, if it seems like there is a contradiction with Paul ...it usually is because there is, but not in contrast to TANAK or Messiah, but in contrast to YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING.

The trick to figuring out many of Paul's teachings is to first understand the context, and then more importantly after that, to find out where or how within scripture the proposed contradiction is reconciled without rendering contradiction ...he does this as a way of opening your understanding on the issue.

..,but remember to keep in mind Who has more authority in their statements.

Anyways I just simply request you all give it a try and not immediately treat my advice with contempt ...I'm just simply attempting to help you, thanks.


This is really not the place to debate this so don't be surprised if you post disappears. But let me just ask you about the part I highlighted. I've heard this argument so many times it's pathetic. Why do you think that these people can understand the rest of the bible but not Paul's writings?

And why would anyone suppose that the L-RD would give Yeshua teaching to give to Paul that his people couldn't understand? What benefit would that bring?

The Message of Messiah should be compatible with the Torah given and any that are followers of Messiah should also match up.
 
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If Paul is anti Torah it would make him anti Christ since Yeshua says Moses and the prophets witness of Him. Yet Paul is not anti Torah he is however anti the flesh of Adam ever keeping Torah He is pro the life of YHWH living in and through disciples that Torah becomes a living word. Torah is not a list of what we should and should not do but who we are when we lose the self life from Adam in Messiahs death and become one with YHWHs life in his resurection. If Torah is a thing we must make the life inherate from Adam to change to it is a law that shows us the sin and death we received from Him. If Torah is a promise and witness of YHWHs life He has made us to inherate through being one with Him and Messiah it is a immutable law of life as Moses witnessed it to be.
Despite scholars opinion Romans is Paul's Deuteronomy. Here is where He gives law of sin and death and law of life in Messiah Yeshua...same law ...different power source to keep it. It is also why He speaks of gentiles doing the things contained in the law by nature...this is the of YHWH in them not a nature inherent from Adam as the scripture concludes no Adam to be righteous.
Sorry so long and hello all been a few months since I have been here

Yep, "Anabatehode!", (third heaven and Paradise) :D even as Paul learned it from the Revelation of Yeshua, (11). For when the nations not having the Law do by nature the things of the Law; those not having the Law are unto themselves a law, who show forth the work of the law written in their hearts: the inner law jointly witnessing-testifying together with their conscience unto them, and between one another the resulting thoughts Accusing or even making a defense in the Day when Elohim shall judge the secrets of men according to the good message I have received through Revelation of Messiah Yeshua. No one outsmarts the Great Psychologist who made us all. ^_^
 
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Lulav

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Not the place to debate ...Im in a forum ...on the topic ...*scratching head*

Quite an irrational respose there ...I also appreciate the passive threat of deletion.

...oh well, I forgive you, lol.
:sigh: I've done nothing to be forgiven from you. I was only trying to help you. If you had been here in the past few months you would understand why this thread has been posted and that it is only for discussing (right now) the pro torah statements in Romans.

As the OP stated it was not up for debate. And the ruling of late if you go off topic or against the rules or such your post will be deleted that's what the mods have been doing. Nothing I have anything to do with, I was just giving you a friendly warning.

I don't know what an 'irrational respose' is and I didn't threaten you at all so perhaps it is you who needs to ask for forgiveness? :)
 
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Lulav

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Yep, "Anabatehode!", (third heaven and Paradise) :D even as Paul learned it from the Revelation of Yeshua, (11). For when the nations not having the Law do by nature the things of the Law; those not having the Law are unto themselves a law, who show forth the work of the law written in their hearts: the inner law jointly witnessing-testifying together with their conscience unto them, and between one another the resulting thoughts Accusing or even making a defense in the Day when Elohim shall judge the secrets of men according to the good message I have received through Revelation of Messiah Yeshua. No one outsmarts the Great Psychologist who made us all. ^_^
In keeping with the OP

Romans 2:12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,…


daq said :who show forth the work of the law written in their hearts

If those who Paul is speaking of are the Gentiles who are not under the law but are 'doers' of the law how can the law be written on their hearts?

I believe Paul is trying to explain how this works according to his understanding of the New Covenant, but the New Covenant that would be written upon the hearts was only for those of Judah and Israel. IF these Gentiles have not joined Israel by becoming part of the Covenant (being circumcised and keeping the Torah) then how could this happen to them (the writing of the law on their hearts)?
 
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Lulav

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Why Christians? Because this is Christian Forums, almost every MG was first a Christian, and the strongest anti-Torah teaching comes from Christians not MJs.

:thumbsup: Great insight. If you have more of this type of synopsis please share.

I COULD 100% agree with what you're saying here if you said:

1. Galatians is written specifically against those who are urging SALVATION BY obedience to the Law.

2. He is therefore arguing against WORKING the Law now FOR SALVATION.

This is a great question: "In Rm 3.2 he accepts that in some way circumcision is of much advantage (does he mean actual circumcision, or merely belonging to Judaism? Is there a real change of mind, perhaps after adverse reaction to his intolerance, or merely emphasis on a different point?)"

Are you proposing that reading Paul's letters chronologically will reveal that he progressively looses his anti-law phraseology?


IMO, reading chronologically, he waivers back and forth, just like his misunderstood letters are Anti and Pro dissertations. IOW, every letter with what looks like anti-Torah, also contains MANY Pro-Torah instructions.

:wave:

It was an option. I think the wavering can be attributed to:

1. Speaking to different people (different congregations)
2. His developing theology which is greatly influenced by his Pharisaical upbringing which causes him to constantly try to reconcile that with what happened in Jerusalem.
3. His own struggle with the spirit and the flesh.

And Example

Romans 2:13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Yet to the Galatians he wrote:

2:15 We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified


So how do you reconcile these? Is it who he is writing to? Is it in response to something they were doing or someone else's teaching.

According to Bible Scholars he wrote to the Galatians before he wrote to the Romans. He knew the people of Galatia that he was writing to but he had not yet met those in Rome that he wrote to.
 
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In keeping with the OP




daq said :who show forth the work of the law written in their hearts

If those who Paul is speaking of are the Gentiles who are not under the law but are 'doers' of the law how can the law be written on their hearts?

I believe Paul is trying to explain how this works according to his understanding of the New Covenant, but the New Covenant that would be written upon the hearts was only for those of Judah and Israel. IF these Gentiles have not joined Israel by becoming part of the Covenant (being circumcised and keeping the Torah) then how could this happen to them (the writing of the law on their hearts)?

Paul clearly tells us that his idea of true circumcision is the circumcision of the heart. Therefore once again we have before us life and death, above and below, the Spirit of the Testimony of Yeshua concerning his interpretations of Torah verses the mind of the flesh and the deeds of the body which Paul likewise says to mortify or put to death. When you say "being circumcised and keeping the Torah", (in order to "join Israel") I do not perceive that you perceive those things in the same way as Paul. You appear to mean them according to the flesh or physical while Paul clearly means them in a supernal way. Yeshua speaks so many hidden things concerning Torah that most "gentiles" do not even know that is what they are receiving until much later, (if indeed they continue in his doctrine). :D :wave:
 
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