So... Creation or Evolution?

bhsmte · Apr 15, 2015

Wryetui said:
Well I was thinking a little bit about it because the amount of magazines and books they sell on those sites made me a little bit of suspicious anyway. So are you saying that evolution doesn't affect Christianity and you can be an evolutionist christian?

After all, Christ didn't come here to explain how the things were made and didn't say that it was an important matter on salvation. What it really matters is faith in Him and other important teachings.

It is a fact, the majority of Christians agree with evolution.

bhsmte · Apr 15, 2015

Wryetui said:
To know your opinion about it.

Does this mean you could be swayed by other people's opinions, when it appears you have made up your mind?

Papias · Apr 15, 2015

W wrote-

So are you saying that evolution doesn't affect Christianity and you can be an evolutionist christian?

Yes. Most of the support for evolution in the US at least is from Christians.

It was mostly Christians who built the Modern Synthesis - what is commonly referred to as "evolution" today. Many churches have published how their Christianity is supported by evolution. That includes, by the way, members of the Eastern Orthodox church, such as here: Creationism Versus Evolution

Another good resource is biologos.org, as well as books like "finding Darwin's God", Relics of Eden" and more, which show that evolution and Christianity are compatible.

In Christ-

Papias

Wryetui · Apr 15, 2015

bhsmte said:
Does this mean you could be swayed by other people's opinions, when it appears you have made up your mind?

Totally yes, but only in some domains. Evolution and creation is one of those domains, I want to ask people that know about these things better than me their opinion so they can teach me about it

But how can evolution compaginate with the fact that God created us all in the way we are now?

bhsmte · Apr 15, 2015

Wryetui said:
Totally yes, but only in some domains. Evolution and creation is one of those domains, I want to ask people that know about these things better than me their opinion so they can teach me about it

But how can evolution compaginate with the fact that God created us all in the way we are now?

On your last point, evolution and literal creation can not coexist together. Most christians have been able to reconcile this and accept the strong evidence for evolution.

Maybe you can and maybe you cant, it depends how literal an interpretation you must cling to.

Strathos · Apr 15, 2015

OP promotes a false dichotomy. We don't know everything about biology and evolution but we know enough to understand how and why it happens.

rush1169 · Apr 15, 2015

Science cannot determine that evolution occurred without divine intervention. Science cannot determine that evolution occurred with divine intervention. Science cannot answer the question - it can only offer evidence. You are the sole juror.

Merlin · Apr 15, 2015

Wryetui said:
Well I was thinking a little bit about it because the amount of magazines and books they sell on those sites made me a little bit of suspicious anyway. So are you saying that evolution doesn't affect Christianity and you can be an evolutionist christian?

After all, Christ didn't come here to explain how the things were made and didn't say that it was an important matter on salvation. What it really matters is faith in Him and other important teachings.

If you reject the first part of the bible then which parts are acceptable?
Can't you reject other parts you don't like such as raising from the dead?
And at that point isn't Christianity just a nice fable?

Evolution is just one piece of the creation concept.
Where did the DNA come from?

Wryetui · Apr 15, 2015

As I said too, it is hard for me to not interpret the Bible literally, but I have to consult the position of my Church to look for further information about it, because I do not have the right to interpret the Bible.

Papias · Apr 15, 2015

W, did you read my post #23, above, which gave a statement from members of your church?

In Christ-

Papias

Subduction Zone · Apr 15, 2015

Wryetui said:
I have read almost everything on the internet about this since I came to the conclusion that there are better things to focus on , and that God doesn't rely on this subject at all. But still I want to ask, for you guys, without any complicated answers, do you think evolution is the overall truth and that explains everything without any kind of doubt?

In my short life I have seen great engineers, doctors or scientists that were creationists, and I have seen great engineers, doctors and scientists that were evolutionists, so as far as I can see, evidence can be interpreted in many ways.

There are no great engineers, doctors or scientists that have used creationism as an explanation for their work. There are doctors that believe in creationism, but it is not used in curing people. There are scientists that believe in creationism, but any actual science that they do does not use it. And there are engineers that are creationists, but again they cannot apply it to engineering. The opposite is true for evolution and the theory that explains it. The most obvious example is scientists. There are great scientists that are using the theory every day in some form or other. There are doctors that use it to predict how bacteria and even viruses will evolve. There are even engineers that have used a variation of it to quickly find solutions using variation and selection.

Blue Wren · Apr 17, 2015

Papias said:
W wrote:

They are highly profitable businesses that make money by selling creationist materials. They are successful in doing so by creating a scary image of science, and hence scaring Christians to buy their products.

In doing so, they cause immense damage to Christianity by convincing Christians that they have to reject evolution to be Christian. When some of these Christians look at the evidence, they often feel they have to leave Christianity to be remain honest, and they do so. This was cited by Barna research as one of the main reasons for so many people leaving Christianity today. But hey, those sites don't care how many people they drive from Christianity as long as the checks keep coming in.

Since the data is so completely in favor of evolution, those sites (like creation.com and icr - aig is another) have to rely on a range of deceptive tactics to fool people. Here is a list of some of the most common tactics used.

Stacking the Evidence - only show some of the evidence.
Inconsistent terminology - use a word to mean something different.
Bare assertions one of the most common - simply state a falsehood, and leave it there to be believed, with no supporting evidence.
Quotemining - (misrepresenting a quote to sound like it says the opposite of its original meaning).
Misrepresentation & Weasel Words- use vague terms to imply things without saying them outright (because if you do, you'll be shown wrong).
Appealing to Ignorance - say things like "nobody knows how....", when in fact they do.
Moving the Goalposts if one claim looks like it is being disproven, pretend the original claim was different.
Ducking questions by changing the topic (red herrings or the Gish Gallop)-
Use of outdated sources - no one checks dates anyway.
Continuing to use exposed falsehoods Like the paluxy river fraud, etc.

If we are to present a good witness to the world, this kind of lying has no place in Christianity.

In Jesus' name-

Papias

P. S.
W arote:

No one is suggesting you do anything else. Using only a literal interpretation allthe time is terrible hermeneutics, and so often just plain wrong. Genesis is not in conflict with evolution unless one interprets it literally.

I agree with you, very much, about this, as it is a business. I had not heard, of creation.com until this post.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7858241-55/#post67007155 I wanted to have, an open mind. I put time, into reading the site. I watched many videos, also. It is, unbelievable. The audacity, of these people. The person, who leads it, he is not a scientist. He is a spokesperson. I do not know, if he is just ignorant, about what he says, or, if he deceives, on purpose. It was very upsetting, to me, that someone, who says, he is a Christian, he is, so willing, to exploit others. Kids. They read this site. They do studies, from this site. They use this, as a business, you are right.

Stormy · Apr 17, 2015

God is the creator. Evolution may have been his tool.

But two points .. One.. I only believe in micro. not macro evolution. And. two.. the soul within is not of this earth.

Subduction Zone · Apr 17, 2015

Stormy said:
God is the creator. Evolution may have been his tool.

But two points .. One.. I only believe in micro. not macro evolution. And. two.. the soul within is not of this earth.

Why the selective belief? When it comes to scientific evidence it supports only "macro" evolution. In reality there is no difference between so called micro and macro evolution except for the time involved.

SteveB28 · Apr 17, 2015

Subduction Zone said:
Why the selective belief? When it comes to scientific evidence it supports only "macro" evolution. In reality there is no difference between so called micro and macro evolution except for the time involved.

In skimming through this and other discussion boards, I see those terms frequently used. Please help an old man and give a brief explanation of 'micro' and 'macro' evolution? I have only ever been familiar with the concept of 'descent with modification'. Are we referring to something similar here?

GrimKingGrim · Apr 17, 2015

Stormy said:
But two points .. One.. I only believe in micro. not macro evolution.

That's like not believing in Kilograms but believing in grams.

Here, let me show you the flaw in this way of thinking in this very ingenius video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKvNSUkpj4w

Shemjaza · Apr 17, 2015

SteveB28 said:
In skimming through this and other discussion boards, I see those terms frequently used. Please help an old man and give a brief explanation of 'micro' and 'macro' evolution? I have only ever been familiar with the concept of 'descent with modification'. Are we referring to something similar here?

When scientists use the terms they apply to evolution below or above the species scale.

Micro:

Macro:

sandybay · Apr 17, 2015

Stormy said:
God is the creator. Evolution may have been his tool.

But two points .. One.. I only believe in micro. not macro evolution. And. two.. the soul within is not of this earth.

Why don't you just say "I want nothing to do with reality".

sandybay · Apr 17, 2015

Wryetui said:
In my short life I have seen great engineers, doctors or scientists that were creationists.

Subduction Zone said:
There are no great engineers, doctors or scientists that have used creationism as an explanation for their work. There are doctors that believe in creationism, but it is not used in curing people. There are scientists that believe in creationism, but any actual science that they do does not use it. And there are engineers that are creationists, but again they cannot apply it to engineering.

Which only tells us there are creationists who have become engineers, doctors and scientists, Francis Collins being one of the most notable, the question is, how many engineers, doctors or scientists have become creationists?

SteveB28 · Apr 17, 2015

Shemjaza said:
When scientists use the terms they apply to evolution below or above the species scale.

Micro:

Macro:

I see. So the terms are really only differentiating the scale of change? The process is exactly the same, as I would have thought. A 'distinction without a difference', as it were.

Many thanks.

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