Pretrib rapture

Alithis

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For the record, I'm a post-trib leaning pan-tribber.

i'm tribbing over your post ....

;)

but do like the question ..about the last trumpet :thumbsup:

my fav saying on the topic - i'm not looking for the rapture ..i don't know the rapture the rapture didn't save me ..i'm looking for the lord JESUS :clap::clap:
 
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Alithis

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Defending the pre Trib rapture. :priest:

If you are going to teach against the pre trib rapture you ought to start with this Scripture.
1 Thess. 4:16-18
"16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words." NASB :liturgy::clap:

What I see is there are Scriptures to back up different views. Yet the pre trib teaching causes us to purify our hearts for the Lord's return.

1 John 3:1-3 " 1 See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure."

There is much persecution of the righteous currently. Those who live godly are not getting out of anything. But in all these things we overwhelming conquer through Him who loved us. Romans 8
the bit in red ...
does it really though ? seems to me folks gget lulled into waiting to get whisked away and lose any care for all those other wicked people that aren't coming ... but that would mean that the love of God is not in them ..for no one can have the love of God and not desire that all be saved .. which would mean in all likelihood.. they wont be going themselves and are barring the way for others also .
so forget about the rapture i say and get busy asking the lord .."what will you that I do? .. my life is yours .. !
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Defending the pre Trib rapture. :priest:

If you are going to teach against the pre trib rapture you ought to start with this Scripture.
1 Thess. 4:16-18
"16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words." NASB :liturgy::clap:

What I see is there are Scriptures to back up different views. Yet the pre trib teaching causes us to purify our hearts for the Lord's return.

1 John 3:1-3 " 1 See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure."

There is much persecution of the righteous currently. Those who live godly are not getting out of anything. But in all these things we overwhelming conquer through Him who loved us. Romans 8

Actually I believe there to be better scriptures than 1 Thes 4:15-18 to begin with on the subject. But your opinion is interesting. For the record, the persecution currently happening is nothing like what Revelation says will come. until we know who the Anti-Christ is, there can be no rapture.
 
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Scottmcc1

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For the record, the persecution currently happening is nothing like what Revelation says will come. until we know who the Anti-Christ is, there can be no rapture.

Yes the volume of persecution may increase. But who suffered more than Paul?
Many are suffering much today.

One of the problems of discussing this large of a topic is the different presuppositions we may have. Explain the knowledge of who the anti-Christ is and the rapture.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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right. This entire subject is based upon each individual's interpretation of specific scriptures although I would be hesitant say that people haven't suffered more than Paul. The volume of suffering and the amount of suffering is really subjective to each individual and I am sure that in two thousand years since Paul lived many people have suffered many terrible things.
 
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Scottmcc1

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One of the things I teach is rapture season. Look for Jesus to come now. Sometimes He will bring something into our life such as an opportunity to minister. Let us always be looking for Him and opportunities to minister.
 
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Lotuspetal_uk

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This topic has given me writer's block in terms of my book. :swoon: I was okay until I heard some tv preacher say that after the saints are taken up it would be too late for those on the earth as the Holy Spirit would have left the earth at this point.

Question for Pre/Mid/Post tribbers (please quote my post in your reply with a heading of which school of thought you understand :thumbsup:) :-

After the taking up of the saints, what happens to those who are left behind but who then realise the error of their ways and repent?

*My thoughts behind the question - I was writing a story about teens who witness the gathering up of the saints. Some knew what had happened and repented straight away while others learnt of what had happened and then accepted Christ before taking the mark. Would that be a realistic premise or would it be too late for such individuals?*

I would love to hear all sides to the above and any further links or free pdf docs so that I can research this further. :thumbsup:

BTS, sorry if I derail your thread but I wanted one centralised thread where I could thoroughly read all contributions and I thought your OP fitted this nicely.

Thank you in advance for anything you guys could offer.
 
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Zugzwang

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This topic has given me writer's block in terms of my book. :swoon: I was okay until I heard some tv preacher say that after the saints are taken up it would be too late for those on the earth as the Holy Spirit would have left the earth at this point.

Question for Pre/Mid/Post tribbers (please quote my post in your reply with a heading of which school of thought you understand :thumbsup:) :-

After the taking up of the saints, what happens to those who are left behind but who then realise the error of their ways and repent?

*My thoughts behind the question - I was writing a story about teens who witness the gathering up of the saints. Some knew what had happened and repented straight away while others learnt of what had happened and then accepted Christ before taking the mark. Would that be a realistic premise or would it be too late for such individuals?*

I would love to hear all sides to the above and any further links or free pdf docs so that I can research this further. :thumbsup:

BTS, sorry if I derail your thread but I wanted one centralised thread where I could thoroughly read all contributions and I thought your OP fitted this nicely.

Thank you in advance for anything you guys could offer.

2nd Thess. 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I would say scripture is clear, though highly unpleasant.

Rom. 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in

If we look how Jesus himself treated the Gentiles AT THE TIME compared to Israel, we see... Matt. 15:21-28 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession.”

Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs.”

“Yes, Lord,” she said, “but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.”

Then Jesus answered, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

IF the first 483 years of the 490 were done this way, with the consideration of Israel in mind, it only stands to reason it would revert back this way for the last seven. Not that gentiles can't be saved mind you, but the scriptures above seem clear. Israel & the Church are not the same. They do not have the same relationship with Him. They have different functions, rewards, etc. So it stands to reason the "elect" do not mean "the Church" in Matt. 24 & other passages. It is the Spirit that draws, yes? Not some mass disappearance? So, if it the Spirit that draws, and the Spirit is "through" with those that have denied Him...what else can be said?
 
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ByTheSpirit

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2nd Thess. 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I would say scripture is clear, though highly unpleasant.

Rom. 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in

If we look how Jesus himself treated the Gentiles AT THE TIME compared to Israel, we see... Matt. 15:21-28 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession.”

Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs.”

“Yes, Lord,” she said, “but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.”

Then Jesus answered, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

IF the first 483 years of the 490 were done this way, with the consideration of Israel in mind, it only stands to reason it would revert back this way for the last seven. Not that gentiles can't be saved mind you, but the scriptures above seem clear. Israel & the Church are not the same. They do not have the same relationship with Him. They have different functions, rewards, etc. So it stands to reason the "elect" do not mean "the Church" in Matt. 24 & other passages. It is the Spirit that draws, yes? Not some mass disappearance? So, if it the Spirit that draws, and the Spirit is "through" with those that have denied Him...what else can be said?

The problem with the idea that the Spirit is withdrawn in 2 Thes 2 is that in Revelation it says a great multitude comes out of the Trib from every nation, tongue, and tribe. It is not possible for the withholding force of 2 Thes 2 to be the Holy Spirit. No where else does Paul refer to the Spirit in such a generic and vague sort of way. Why would he here?
 
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rdclmn72

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Precedent states that both being kept and being removed are the options that God has used throughout history.
That then leaves us with the question of who will be doing what.
Ruth deals with the gentiles as part of the barley harvest, other parts of the Bible deal with a wheat harvest that comes later.
 
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Tina W

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I'm not 100% sure if the rapture doctrine is true or not, but I plan to be in that number if it is true and I'm also prepared to face tribulation if the rapture doesn't happen. I guess we'll know it's true when/if it happens and we'll know it's not true when/if we face tribulation. :) Believing in the rapture or not believing in the rapture is not one of those things that will make you a real Christian or not. It's not required to believe in it to be a Christian. I do like the idea of it as a way of escape before the tribulation, assuming it happens in my lifetime. But I'm not 100% sure it's true or not, it's debatable. I would like it to be true. :)
 
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Souldier

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I'm not 100% sure if the rapture doctrine is true or not, but I plan to be in that number if it is true and I'm also prepared to face tribulation if the rapture doesn't happen. I guess we'll know it's true when/if it happens and we'll know it's not true when/if we face tribulation. :) Believing in the rapture or not believing in the rapture is not one of those things that will make you a real Christian or not. It's not required to believe in it to be a Christian. I do like the idea of it as a way of escape before the tribulation, assuming it happens in my lifetime. But I'm not 100% sure it's true or not, it's debatable. I would like it to be true. :)

Thats how i see too. Being prepared is the key. The parable of the sower teaches us that the worries of this life can cause us to become unfruitful. Look toward heaven always and dont worry as much about what this world can or will do to us.
 
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rdclmn72

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The biggest mistake people make when it comes to the timing of being called up is that they all assume that the last trumpet is that of seven.
Nu10 is where there are but two, making the argument moot.
The last of seven makes it impossible to determine, the last of two makes the idea of a pre-trib rapture viable.
 
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2nd Thess. 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I would say scripture is clear, though highly unpleasant.

Rom. 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in

If we look how Jesus himself treated the Gentiles AT THE TIME compared to Israel, we see... Matt. 15:21-28 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession.”

Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs.”

“Yes, Lord,” she said, “but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.”

Then Jesus answered, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

IF the first 483 years of the 490 were done this way, with the consideration of Israel in mind, it only stands to reason it would revert back this way for the last seven. Not that gentiles can't be saved mind you, but the scriptures above seem clear. Israel & the Church are not the same. They do not have the same relationship with Him. They have different functions, rewards, etc. So it stands to reason the "elect" do not mean "the Church" in Matt. 24 & other passages. It is the Spirit that draws, yes? Not some mass disappearance? So, if it the Spirit that draws, and the Spirit is "through" with those that have denied Him...what else can be said?

Thanks for this Zugzwang :thumbsup:

ByTheSpirit said:
The problem with the idea that the Spirit is withdrawn in 2 Thes 2 is that in Revelation it says a great multitude comes out of the Trib from every nation, tongue, and tribe. It is not possible for the withholding force of 2 Thes 2 to be the Holy Spirit. No where else does Paul refer to the Spirit in such a generic and vague sort of way. Why would he here?

This was my question with regards to the lack of hope for those left behind (before posting my query). Then there are the verses in Rev referring to the various judgements and the fact that mankind still would not repent. The 'would not repent' words/verses gave me the impression that like 2 Peter 3:9 the Lord does not want many to perish and so is patient until the end (the timing of which we do not know about 2 Peter 3:11-12)

Thank you, I appreciate what you both have written here, it's gotten me back into studying this more deeply. :thumbsup:
 
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Lotuspetal_uk

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Precedent states that both being kept and being removed are the options that God has used throughout history.
That then leaves us with the question of who will be doing what.
Ruth deals with the gentiles as part of the barley harvest, other parts of the Bible deal with a wheat harvest that comes later.
Thank you brother, would you mind expanding on what you've written above. I'm not sure if I will be able to be back online later so thank you also for your contributions here. :wave:
 
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Lotuspetal_uk

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The parable of the ten virgins speaks of those.
:wave: @ Lismore

Early in my book I wrote of two sisters who were teenagers (one backslidden and influenced by the older sister, the other sister very much influenced by the secular humanism being taught in UK schools), who basically complied with their mum being born again by attending fellowship etc but who were not fully convinced by the mum's faith. They witness their mum being raptured and sobbed and groaned so deeply because they were fully aware of what had taken place before their eyes. I wanted to run with these characters to basically have them be the ones that are able to explain to other kids what had happened and how they could be saved.

So although I'm writing fiction (HRH's age group would be the target audience, she said to basically have a note at the beginning of the book explaining the various teachings out there but justify the teaching used for the story), I also don't want to convey an absolute-off-the-tangent-error by putting across that people will still be able to be saved but they would be persecuted during these last days.

I guess I wanted the story focus to be on those who realise too late that they missed the boat (be it because they were atheists/non believers/held other beliefs previously) but that due to those who know, they are able to sort themselves out and repent to the Lord, albeit during extremely testing times.

Hence the writers block ^_^. This past Easter break I've been able to read more on this, and also thanks to this thread, I've been able to view all sides on this topic.

I appreciate what everyone has contributed so far! Definitely meat on the bone stuff! :clap:
 
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Lotuspetal_uk

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Yup..when the lord comes and gathers his wheat.its the harvest.
theres no post harvest.

the words ..there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth are also spoken of those
being cast out from Gods presence.
ie death& hell .
:wave: @ Alithis

Definitely food for thought. I was going to write more but I need to get the pre-teen out of bed so that I can get her to do her chores.

Thanks for this! :thumbsup:
 
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The "First" resurrection will take place on the "Last" day when the "Last" trump sounds.

The "First resurrection" means no general resurrections precede it.
The "Last day" means the last day of this age.
The "Last trump" means that last of a series of trumpets.

When are all three of these things true at the same time?

At the sounding of the seventh trump when the Kingdom is established.
 
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