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Blindfaith

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I find it rather difficult to believe that you learned all aspects of the theory of evolution in 4th grade.

If you read my post, Jerry, you would have seen that I said he taught us in a way that 4th graders could understand.

No, I don't think my understanding of science "suffered" because of what he taught.  I suppose it would have been better if he taught strictly evolution (4th grade level) and not creation?  

Rae & Jerry:  I think that both should be taught, not just one.  What is the problem with giving students both arguements in order for them to make a decision?  As it is now, evolution is taught in the high school biology classes, but not creation.  Why?  Why can't both be taught?

With that being said;

[mod hat on]

I'm going to say this very clearly to all; keep the sarcastic, insulting and/or derogatory remarks to yourselves.  If Tami decides to homeschool her child, for whatever reason, it is not up to anyone here to question her decision, or to criticize her or her capabilities.  Do not, under any circumstance, tell her that she is "biased scientifically", or any other such nonsense. 

If this, or any other sarcastic or deragatory statement it made, just 1, this thread will be closed and official warnings and vacations will be issued. 

Re-read the rules that Bear posted if there's any question as to whether or not your posts are acceptable.

[mod hat off]

 
 
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Auntie

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Today at 02:37 AM Red Panda said this in Post #39 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=672670#post672670)

It's a lot easier to just blame the school system, .........


When any institution finds itself crumbling away, then it's high time for that institution to reexamine itself. The private schools are doing fine, and growing every day. The problem is with the school system itself, no one should blame the teachers. Most teachers are very dedicated to their profession.
 
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seebs

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Today at 10:37 AM Auntie said this in Post #42 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=673046#post673046)

When any institution finds itself crumbling away, then it's high time for that institution to reexamine itself. The private schools are doing fine, and growing every day. The problem is with the school system itself, no one should blame the teachers. Most teachers are very dedicated to their profession.

Yes, but not all of them are very *good* at it. American education has sometimes been adversely affected by fads in teaching methods, etcetera.

There's a very interesting program where teachers are "apprenticed" - during their education as teachers, they also do some hands-on stuff, first sitting in on classes, then gradually becoming more involved, so that, by the end of their four year education, they've *actually taught classes*. Furthermore, instead of dropping out after a year of teaching, if they're going to drop out, they generally do so after a few months of training - because they've had a chance to find out that classes aren't what they want to do.

Very good idea.
 
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Tami

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Yesterday at 08:51 PM Pete Harcoff said this in Post #31



Do you have a problem with gravity being taught as fact? How about quantum mechanics? Magnestism? Wave dynamics?

Why only evolution?



Why should he have to "combat" evolution, pray tell? [/B]
 No, I don't have a problem with gravity being taught as fact.  If I were floating uncontrollably around in the universe, I might have a problem with it, though.  As to why he should have to combat evolution, that one is obvious.  When's the last time you saw someone evolve?  Why does it stop with us?  Are we so perfect now that we don't need to evolve anymore?

Tami
 
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Pete Harcoff

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Today at 02:11 PM Tami said this in Post #44 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=673262#post673262)

 No, I don't have a problem with gravity being taught as fact.  If I were floating uncotrollably around in the universe, I might have a problem with it, though.

But how do you know it's gravity keeping us stuck to Earth? How do I know it's not, oh, atmospheric pressure? Or some form of magnetism? What is gravity, anyway? I've never seen "gravity". Have you?


As to why he should have to combat evolution, that one is obvious.  When's the last time you saw someone evolve?

Every time a baby is born.

Why does it stop with us?  Are we so perfect now that we don't need to evolve anymore?

Evolution hasn't stopped. Who told you that?
 
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Today at 10:55 AM blindfaith said this in Post #41

If you read my post, Jerry, you would have seen that I said he taught us in a way that 4th graders could understand.

I understood that. My point is that a 4th grade understanding of evolution is too basic to be able to make an informed "choice" with. If there was a pseudoscientific theory that decried the existence of gravity, the same would be true. In 4th grade, you can understand that gravity makes things fall & not much more than that. You couldn't have enough info to be able to reliably "choose" between the scientifically correct understanding of gravity, and a false understanding of it. 

No, I don't think my understanding of science "suffered" because of what he taught.  I suppose it would have been better if he taught strictly evolution (4th grade level) and not creation?

Maybe yours didn't. But some of your classmates' may well have. Are any of them "scientific creationists" now? If so, could it have at least something to do with the fact that a teacher presented creationism as a legitimate alternative to evolution before they were old enough to understand that it wasn't?  

Rae & Jerry:  I think that both should be taught, not just one.  What is the problem with giving students both arguements in order for them to make a decision?  As it is now, evolution is taught in the high school biology classes, but not creation.  Why?  Why can't both be taught?

Because one is science, and the other is pseudoscience. One is correct, the other is incorrect. The same reason that "both" 2+2=4 and 2+2=5 should not be taught. The same reason political science and mundane astrology should not both be taught. The same reason that the facts of the Jewish Holocaust, and the theory that the Holocaust never happened should not both be taught. Give them both options and let them believe that they can just pick whichever sounds nicest (because you can never steep them in enough education to allow them the opportunity of a truly informed decision) - and you will have as many picking the wrong answers as you do picking the right ones!

The best scientific answer available should be taught - the worst kind of pseudoscience should not be avoided, or taught as an example of "how not to", in order to expose the mistakes of unscientific thinking when dealing with questions about nature.
 
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Tami

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Today at 01:15 PM Pete Harcoff said this in Post #45

But how do you know it's gravity keeping us stuck to Earth? How do I know it's not, oh, atmospheric pressure? Or some form of magnetism? What is gravity, anyway? I've never seen "gravity". Have you?



Every time a baby is born.



Evolution hasn't stopped. Who told you that?

Have you ever seen a human being turn into something else?  Some people believe that humans evolved from apes.  I've never seen this process.  Have you?  If people can evolve from apes, can't something else evolve from people?  About the gravity thing, they had to call it something didn't they?  I haven't seen gravity just like I haven't seen wind, but I've seen the effects of them both.

Tami
 
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Tami

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Today at 01:31 AM Red Panda said this in Post #35

The first thing to know about evolution is that it is both a fact and a theory.  This is a point you don't appear to understand; the tone of your response indicates you think that "theory" means "good guess".  It does not mean that, you know. 

Before you teach your child about evolution, it might be wise if you brushed up yourself first.  One cannot teach a subject that one doesn't know, after all.  :wave:

Okay, I never claimed to be an expert on evolution.  Don't worry.  I do plan to brush up myself before I teach my kid about it.  I've forgotten a lot of things about it since I was in school and do admit that I need a refresher course.  Thank you for your concern.

 

Tami
 
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Today at 08:37 AM Auntie said this in Post #42

When any institution finds itself crumbling away, then it's high time for that institution to reexamine itself.



That assumes that the institution has full control over its affairs, its direction, etc.  In this case, the assumption is not valid.  Public schools are required to reflect the desires of the public.

 

The private schools are doing fine, and growing every day.

Incorrect. Do a google search on Edison schools, and see what trouble they're in.

The problem is with the school system itself,

Really? Then explain the examples of successful students that I gave, who attend public school.

 
 
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Blindfaith

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Tami,

Something positive;

Homeschooling is not difficult.  The curriculum that is available is astounding.  My daughter (who is now 12) was doing terrible in math and science while in 5th grade, and I couldn't get the school to work with me.  I took her to a tutor, but it just wasn't happening for her.  Her grades in math fluctuated from a D to an F.  She'd do fine on her assignments, because we'd help her, but the test killed her because she didn't understand it.

I went to a homeschooling convention, and was blown away by all of the different types of curriculum available, not just the 1 type that was available for her, and the rest of the students at her school.  I didn't think I'd do such a great job, but she excelled and did fantastic with that one-on-one time.  The next year, she decided she wanted to get back into school, and she's now getting A's to B's in math.  Homeschooling can work.

There was a study done, and it showed that throughout the day in a public school class, a teacher and student had direct interaction 1-3 times per day. (this is in no way the teacher's fault ~ they are busy and crowded).  The study also showed that the homeschooled child received 100+ interactions with the student.  This is why homeschooling can be quite successful. 

You'll do a fantastic job! :)
 
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Rae

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Blind:
I think that both should be taught, not just one.

Rae:
It isn't "both." If you get Christian creationism into the schools, I will do my best to get Islamic, Hindu, Pagan, etc. creationism into there.

All or none, Blind. All or none. If you get your religious dogma into the schools, so do I. :)
 
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Wolseley

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Public schools are required to reflect the desires of the public.
Unfortunately, in all too many cases, public schools do not reflect the desires of the public; they reflect the biases of the professional educators and/or their associated organizations, or they reflect the agendas of the most vociferous lobbies and/or social-engineering activists.
 
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I went to a school that offered a course which taught students about Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, socialism and communism. It was led by an Anglican dude who I later came to respect as one of the very best teachers I have ever had. I enjoyed that course so much. It was really great. :)

I also enjoyed my time at that school. It was a very good school.

It was also a public school. :)
 
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Pete Harcoff

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Today at 03:15 PM Tami said this in Post #47 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=673363#post673363)

Have you ever seen a human being turn into something else?

Individually, no. But I have seen human beings give birth to children that aren't 100% clones of their parents.


Some people believe that humans evolved from apes.  I've never seen this process.  Have you?

In real time, no. But there is ample physical evidence that such a process took place. Check out the thread on evidence for human evolution if you don't believe me.


If people can evolve from apes, can't something else evolve from people?

Absolutely. But as to what we will eventually become... your guess is as good as mine.


About the gravity thing, they had to call it something didn't they?  I haven't seen gravity just like I haven't seen wind, but I've seen the effects of them both.

Oh sure, we've seen the effects of gravity (or at least what we think is gravity). But what is gravity?
 
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Today at 01:14 PM Wolseley said this in Post #52

Unfortunately, in all too many cases, public schools do not reflect the desires of the public; they reflect the biases of the professional educators and/or their associated organizations, or they reflect the agendas of the most vociferous lobbies and/or social-engineering activists.

I would support the 'biases' of the professional educators. That is why Europe, Korea, Japan, etc. have such high quality public school systems - they don't let amateurs dictate the coursework or the expectations. The end result is high school seniors that consistently score the highest in the world in the necessary areas.  Have you ever talked to someone who went to public high school in Europe?  I doubt that a lot of American *college* students could handle what the Europeans make their students learn - it's that tough.  But it's still public, but it's public school the right way - they let the experts run the show. 

I find your comment "they reflect the agendas of the most vociferous lobbies and/or social-engineering activists" to be exactly what I said:  the public schools are reflecting their public audience.  The school system wouldn't have to listen to these activists, or groups, if they weren't public schools in the first place.  America prides itself on always listening and responding.  Well in this case, that is exactly what is giving the public school system such a case of fits:  it's getting multiple and contradictory signals from its customers.

Again: the problem is with the American public.  They want:

(a) a high standard of education for their public school kids, but they also want

(b) the public school to teach whatever these parents want their kids to learn. 

 Suggesting to parents that requirement (a) is usually in conflict with requirement (b) is tantamount to heresy.
 
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gwyyn

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Ok gonna start with the evolution arguement.  I think it's ok for children to learn about evolution.  Even though I don't believe in the Big Bang Theory.  I do believe that evolution does exist from the way humans and animals have changed through out time to adapt to their environments.  That may be basis for creatism, i dunno I just believe what I believe and don't try to put myself in a group. 

In highschool, my biology teacher did not believe in evolution.  So he did not lecture us on the issue.  Instead we were given worksheets to fill out and then given a test.  (easiest A I had in there, no notes to study too lol)

Ok as for the issue of public schools I honestly believe the system is not teaching our children.  In Texas, to graduate you must pass the TASS test.  A new test is in Legislation now that is gonna be alot harder.  Many teachers and parents are in uproar over this cause it takes away from teaching the students.  Instead half the year is used to prep the students for the test in the subjects on the test. 

The last TASS test you take is in your sophmore year, if you pass it.  I remeber that we started in November in my english class going back over everything we had learned in grammer and reading to prepare for the test.  In January we started reviewing all the math we'd learned, in my Geometry class.  So for 3 months instead of learning geometry was reviewing Algebra and all that stuff.  So for a big chunk of year we were being taught to the test.  So my problem with Texas public schools is that in certain grades a big chunk of the year is spent teaching for a test and not teaching the curriculum for that year.  I think the test years are  3rd, 7th and 10th grade.  Not sure what the grades are gonna be with the new test.

History is also a poor subject taught in my opinion.  I'm sorry just still bitter about spending 20 minutes of class discussing the theories surrounding JFK"s death, and last half the teacher/coach going over this fridays upcoming plays for the game. grrrrrrrrrrr

Ok sorry about ranting.  As for homeschooling I still have a few years to make up my mind as to whether it would be better for my child.  Will just keep on eye on these standarized tests.

gwyyn
 
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Panda, you make some good points; however, I'm not specifically focusing on the evolution aspect of things, but rather the "Heather Has Two Mommies" type of nonsense, and the revisionist history which has anything that is Caucasian, Christian, and European as evil, while Everything Else is good.

I have no problems with schools teaching evolution, although I think if they really wanted to present it as science instead of A Faith Which May Not Be Questioned, they should also spend part of the course discussing the legitimate scientific problems, inconsistancies, and conflicting schools of thought within evolution, the number of which are not small.
 
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This point is a good one:

Have you ever talked to someone who went to public high school in Europe? I doubt that a lot of American *college* students could handle what the Europeans make their students learn - it's that tough. But it's still public, but it's public school the right way - they let the experts run the show.

You only need to look at the International Baccalaureate to realise that the Europeans have a tremendous advantage.

That's one of the reasons why the IB programme has become so popular here in Australia.
 
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Today at 05:46 PM Wolseley said this in Post #57

Panda, you make some good points; however, I'm not specifically focusing on the evolution aspect of things, but rather the "Heather Has Two Mommies" type of nonsense, and the revisionist history which has anything that is Caucasian, Christian, and European as evil, while Everything Else is good.



I don't see the problem with exposing kids to differences. It's a public school; so you're going to meet the public - and their kids.  Some of them will be immigrants, others will be mixed-race, and some will have gay parents.  The public schools socialize kids so they can get along in a diverse society - I see no problem there.  That's one of the functions of the school: create a common bond in a diverse society, and explain that society to its future members.

And I've never seen any history that comes *close* to what you're describing (revisionist history, etc.).  I think a lot of American history ignores and glosses over the uncomfortable parts (Indian wars, treatment of Tories during the Revolution, slavery, American expansion, etc.).  When those parts are brought to the forefront and examined, people tend to view that as anti-American.  But that's just nonsense.  That's like saying I have to love every single thing that my brother or sister does, or else I'm "anti-brother" or "anti-sister".  Having an honest examination of your brother/sister's flaws doesn't mean you are against them.


I have no problems with schools teaching evolution, although I think if they really wanted to present it as science instead of A Faith Which May Not Be Questioned, they should also spend part of the course discussing the legitimate scientific problems, inconsistancies, and conflicting schools of thought within evolution, the number of which are not small.

I've yet to see any such legitimate scientific problems or inconsistencies.  There are debates about where a particular species falls in an evolutionary descent, or whether chladystic taxonomy is the best approach to sorting organisms, etc.  But as for serious problems or misgivings about evolution?  There are none that I'm aware of.  If you know of some, feel free to post them here.  If they get moved to a different folder, I'll follow them there. :D
 
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Tami

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Yesterday at 02:53 PM blindfaith said this in Post #50

Tami,

Something positive;

Homeschooling is not difficult.  The curriculum that is available is astounding.  My daughter (who is now 12) was doing terrible in math and science while in 5th grade, and I couldn't get the school to work with me.  I took her to a tutor, but it just wasn't happening for her.  Her grades in math fluctuated from a D to an F.  She'd do fine on her assignments, because we'd help her, but the test killed her because she didn't understand it.

I went to a homeschooling convention, and was blown away by all of the different types of curriculum available, not just the 1 type that was available for her, and the rest of the students at her school.  I didn't think I'd do such a great job, but she excelled and did fantastic with that one-on-one time.  The next year, she decided she wanted to get back into school, and she's now getting A's to B's in math.  Homeschooling can work.

There was a study done, and it showed that throughout the day in a public school class, a teacher and student had direct interaction 1-3 times per day. (this is in no way the teacher's fault ~ they are busy and crowded).  The study also showed that the homeschooled child received 100+ interactions with the student.  This is why homeschooling can be quite successful. 

You'll do a fantastic job! :)

Thanks for the support, blindfaith.  My son will be in first grade next year and it will be my first year homeschooling.  I don't believe all the crud some people come up with that homeschooling doesn't measure up to public school.  I know homeschooling works.  My brother-in-law and sister-in-law were homeschooled during their high school years.  They both graduated a year early and they ain't no dummies :D .  I'm sure my kid will do just fine, too.

Tami
 
 
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