Satan. Rebellious Angel or 'church creation'?

Imagican · Apr 4, 2015

Over and over again here on the forum, I have encountered those that INSIST that there is NO Satan so far as a Rebellious Angel cast out of heaven. They INSIST that the word simply means: "Adversary" and can be used to denote ANY 'spirit' that is contrary to the will of God or His Son.

Most that take the stance that there is NO actual 'entity' that is named Satan also insist that the IDEA of an actual entity was created by the 'church'. That the words offered in the Bible have been altered by the 'church' in order to 'create' the ENTITY that is called Satan.

So, does the Bible TEACH us that Satan was an Angel that rebelled against God in heaven, and after a time, cast out of Heaven and down to this Earth along with one third of the other angels in heaven? Or is the entire IDEA something created by the 'church'?

Blessings,

MEC

Imagican · Apr 4, 2015

Oh, and let me offer this for those that may participate in this discussion: My question is NOT: Do you BELIEVE that Satan exists or demons. My question is: Does the BIBLE support the concept. Is the existence of Satan and his demons a Biblical concept?

Blessings,

MEC

AlephBet · Apr 4, 2015

Imagican said:
Over and over again here on the forum, I have encountered those that INSIST that there is NO Satan so far as a Rebellious Angel cast out of heaven. They INSIST that the word simply means: "Adversary" and can be used to denote ANY 'spirit' that is contrary to the will of God or His Son.

Most that take the stance that there is NO actual 'entity' that is named Satan also insist that the IDEA of an actual entity was created by the 'church'. That the words offered in the Bible have been altered by the 'church' in order to 'create' the ENTITY that is called Satan.

So, does the Bible TEACH us that Satan was an Angel that rebelled against God in heaven, and after a time, cast out of Heaven and down to this Earth along with one third of the other angels in heaven? Or is the entire IDEA something created by the 'church'?

Blessings,

MEC

Job 1

6 One day when the sons of Elohim (FATHER FROM GENESIS 1) came to stand in front of Yahweh (SON FROM GENESIS 2), Satan the Accuser (MADE BY YAHWEH) came along with them.

Yahweh is a ruler. Satan is a power / authority. Satan was made by Yahweh. Note that Genesis 3:1 states that Satan was made and not created. Adam was formed by Yahweh and not created. The garden was planted from existing seed and not created. Earth is a garden in an existing universe. Yahweh is not the creator, but an authority ruling his own land as a guardian / watcher. He proclaimed himself God. He went against the law of Elohim in Genesis 9.

6 Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans his blood will be shed,
because in his image, Elohim made humans.

Does Christ overcome his own Satan? No. The Son of God came to overcome the Satan made by Yahweh. Who shed Jesus blood on the cross? Human hands. Who does this make Yahweh as Lord Adonai? Zechariah 3 shows you how the Lord of Hosts prepares his own host for baptism to pay the price the Father demands.

Once you know this, your answer is clear:

-Yahweh is the Ego of the Son of God (Adversary / Law).

-Satan is the accuser (Conscience).

They are powers, authorities and rulers over the Son of God. They are IN and THROUGH the Son. We are images of the Son as Adam. We each have the same rulers, powers and authorities over us too. Jesus was required to overcome those rulers. He accomplished this for us. They are his own making. He had to make them his footstool. We will do the same for ourselves by his example. Baptism is the process to be born again into the refinery of Egypt (Earth). We cross the Jordan (Baptism) to reach the promised land. Salvation comes when the Son comes back for us all. Not until.

Colossians 1

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

ALL things are the Son. All rulers, powers and authorities governing the Son of God (Cosmos) rule us as the image of the Son. We then rule our own kingdom, just as the Son is given charge over the Father's kingdom. Satan, Yahweh, Gravity and all other rulers of the universe are under the command of the Father / Son and Spirit. They are images of the first image. We are images in like kind. You rule a universe of 50 trillion cells, all under the laws of nature that govern the process. The Guardian is the law.

Galatians 3

23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

How do you overcome the Law? Love. What happens when you do? You silence the conscience (Satan).

Zechariah 3

3 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. 2 The Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?”

God made the accuser in and through the Son of God to regulate the Son (Yahweh), who then humbled himself on the cross for us, thereby silencing Satan (his accuser). He willingly allowed himself to occupy a kinsman (HOST) as the LORD of HOSTS.

Satan is his own conscience for shedding blood in the Old Testament. He had to suffer for his own sins. By doing this, he suffered for ours as well.

The Son of God, as a human, was perfect. The Son of God as Yahweh was not. This was the reason he had to be baptized.

The Father is God. He rules the powers, authorities and rulers. He is sovereign. Until the Lord of Hosts willingly became fully human, he would not be released to the Father again as a Son. He had to be humbled as our own example of this process. We each follow the same path as sheep in the wilderness.

RevelationTestament · Apr 4, 2015

AlephBet said:
Job 1

6 One day when the sons of Elohim (FATHER FROM GENESIS 1) came to stand in front of Yahweh (SON FROM GENESIS 2), Satan the Accuser (MADE BY YAHWEH) came along with them.

Yahweh is a ruler. Satan is a power / authority. Satan was made by Yahweh. Note that Genesis 3:1 states that Satan was made and not created.

Actually, it doesn't quite say that.
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
First, it is saying the serpent is more subtil than the beasts the Lord created or made. I hear that as saying that the Lord didn't make the serpent as he was more subtle or sneaky than the beasts the Lord did make. I do not hear that as the Lord made this super sneaky serpent on purpose. Second I hear beasts as ruling powers or groups. Adam looked among these for a wife, but found none suitable out of the world. So God made him a help-meet from not out of the world but from his own substance like the church is made from our Savior rather than from the beast powers of the world. The Lord's church is not made from earth governments etc like the Romans tried to do...It is not to rule over people out of authority of the world but to guide them.

timewerx · Apr 4, 2015

Imagican said:
Over and over again here on the forum, I have encountered those that INSIST that there is NO Satan so far as a Rebellious Angel cast out of heaven. They INSIST that the word simply means: "Adversary" and can be used to denote ANY 'spirit' that is contrary to the will of God or His Son.

I honestly can't give you a 100% sure answer despite my many encounters with spirits that are seemingly harmful.

I have a theory they maybe highly intelligent and highly advanced microscopic entities that can hijack our DNA to manifest itself in terms we can perceive like paranormal activities - hauntings, demon possession, etc.

Corduroys · Apr 5, 2015

I have heard a theory that the bible does not support the fallen angel theory and that Jesus said that Satan was a murderer from the start, which means that he was never good and therefore never an angel. I suppose that the theory must have a 'created evil' which raises problems.

Imagican · Apr 5, 2015

Corduroys said:
I have heard a theory that the bible does not support the fallen angel theory and that Jesus said that Satan was a murderer from the start, which means that he was never good and therefore never an angel. I suppose that the theory must have a 'created evil' which raises problems.

What if it was Lucifer that was the 'created angel' of God, and that name changed to Satan once Lucifer rebelled? This would certainly be a plausible explanation as to Lucifer ONCE being 'good' and then becoming 'evil'.

And as for the 'created evil', what if it was Lucifer that 'created evil' through his original rebellion? And by God being responsible for the creation of Lucifer the angel, it could also be understood that if Lucifer had never been created, he could NOT have rebelled, therefore evil would never have come into existence? So in essence, once could say that GOD is ultimately responsible for evil entering into this world simply by being the 'creator' of Lucifer who became Satan through rebellion.

Just an attempt to bring a bit of insight into possible answers to your questions.

Blessings,

MEC

AlephBet · Apr 5, 2015

RevelationTestament said:
Actually, it doesn't quite say that.
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
First, it is saying the serpent is more subtil than the beasts the Lord created or made. I hear that as saying that the Lord didn't make the serpent as he was more subtle or sneaky than the beasts the Lord did make. I do not hear that as the Lord made this super sneaky serpent on purpose. Second I hear beasts as ruling powers or groups. Adam looked among these for a wife, but found none suitable out of the world. So God made him a help-meet from not out of the world but from his own substance like the church is made from our Savior rather than from the beast powers of the world. The Lord's church is not made from earth governments etc like the Romans tried to do...It is not to rule over people out of authority of the world but to guide them.

Hebrew scribes made sure to alert the perceptive reader to parallel meanaing in scripture through the use of wordplay. Satan was cunning / subtle, which is the Hebrew word Arum. Adam and Eve were naked, which is the Hebrew word Arummim. One was clothed with knowledge and the others were not.

If we fail to know the identity of the Satan that Yahweh made to be subtle, we can seek the answer in Revelation.

Rev 20

He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

He is referring to the power, ruler and authority in and through himself. The conscience is the accuser.

Colossians 1

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

All things means all. Nothing that exists is separated from the Son of God. He must overcome them all.

The Lord made Satan subtle, cunning, crafty and by some definitions of this word: prudent.

We get the message from Jesus (even at the temptation) that Satan is his own adversary. Of course, we know Yahweh was not a loving, patient ruler. He went so far as to deny his own Father (Elohim), proclaiming himself God with none beside.

Jesus did not deny the Father, but said the Father alone was good.

Luke 19

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.

Of course, we call Jesus good against his own words. Very few people know why he said this. The reason is likely because he knew he was previously the Self-righteous Lord of Hosts who shed blood.

Why did the Father require blood to be shed?

Genesis 9

6 “Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made mankind.

Should we judge the Lord for his past? Not if we wish our own to be free from judgment. God makes all things new. We must hound him about his own sin and past.

Job 19

I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
since the root of the trouble lies in him,’
29 you should fear the sword yourselves;
for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
and then you will know that there is judgment.

On our worst day, we cannot be worse than Yahweh. On our best day, we cannot be better than Christ. None are better than the Father. We must forgive our enemies.

The question is, will Jesus forgive Satan? I can find more evidence against Yahweh in scripture than I can for Satan. We have little to go on when it comes to Satan, but we do know that Yahweh MADE Satan Subtle. ALL rulers, powers and authorities are in and through the Son of God, which is likely who Yahweh is.

When Jesus told us NOT to judge enemies, he was telling us how to avoid his judgement of us. We are to judge not since God had to be the enemy we would judge. He is the enemy and Redeemer at the same time. Of course, ONE God must play both roles. God makes all things good--even Satan.

Defining Satan Properly - Why Satan is Good

RevelationTestament · Apr 5, 2015

AlephBet said:
Hebrew scribes made sure to alert the perceptive reader to parallel meanaing in scripture through the use of wordplay. Satan was cunning / subtle, which is the Hebrew word Arum. Adam and Eve were naked, which is the Hebrew word Arummim. One was clothed with knowledge and the others were not.

Did the scribes write the word or did God?

God makes all things good--even Satan.

As I showed, God did not make Satan. As Jesus said Satan was a liar from the beginning. He was a spirit who existed outside of this creation, and has done the same thing in other worlds.

Imagican · Apr 6, 2015

Alephbet,

I am forced to agree with RT in that you are trying to MAKE the scriptures SAY what agrees with your theology.

The Bible does NOT 'say' that God MADE Satan subtle. The Bible states that Satan was MORE subtle than ANY beast MADE by God. I don't know if you are capable of perceiving the difference, but I can assure you there is HUGE difference.

God did NOT 'create' the REBELLION of Satan. Satan created his OWN rebellion according to the Bible. Satan became rebellious when he decided to try and TAKE THE PLACE of God. When he decided to become a GOD of his OWN design. And of course to RECOGNIZE his objective, SOMEONE would have to WORSHIP him AS God in order to BE 'their God'. That means that SOMEONE would have to choose HIS inspiration or influence over that of God in order to VIEW himself AS God.

The first instance is the account in the garden when the serpent convinced Eve to HEED it's influence instead of FOLLOWING what had already been given by GOD in understanding.

So it's clear through the Bible that Satan STARTED subverting men, (or WOMAN), to listen to HIM over the Word of God from the VERY beginning. And has only grown stronger and stronger in his influence as time has passed. So MUCH influence that in just a handful of generations his influence had brought men to the point that ONLY ONE MANY was still 'walking with God'. ALL the rest had allowed their 'hearts to become EVIL continually'. This, according to the Bible.

I tried to limit this conversation to the BIBLE from the START. I didn't really want to discuss the different BELIEFS concerning Satan, just verify whether the concept of Satan as a 'fallen angel' is confirmed through the Bible, or NOT.

You have introduced your belief yet it would seem that it stems from your OWN interpretation of the Bible that really seems to have gone WAY outside of the Bible itself. While I am well aware of JUST how EASY it is to be lulled into a false sense of revelation, I try my best to limit how I allow it to influence my READING and understanding of the Bible if it does not FULLY agree.

So, regardless of your exact interpretation of Satan or demons, does the Bible itself SUPPORT a belief that both EXIST? That is the question.

Is Satan an actual ENTITY according to the Bible? Does he have 'evil spirits', 'unclean spirits', what I call DEMONS, at his disposal, helping him accomplish his intent?

Blessings,

MEC

he-man · Apr 6, 2015

Imagican said:
The Bible does NOT 'say' that God MADE Satan subtle. The Bible states that Satan was MORE subtle than ANY beast MADE by God. The first instance is the account in the garden when the serpent convinced Eve to HEED it's influence instead of FOLLOWING what had already been given by GOD in understanding.

So it's clear through the Bible that Satan STARTED subverting men, (or WOMAN), to listen to HIM over the Word of God from the VERY beginning. And has only grown stronger and stronger in his influence as time has passed. So MUCH influence that in just a handful of generations his influence had brought men to the point that ONLY ONE MANY was still 'walking with God'. ALL the rest had allowed their 'hearts to become EVIL continually'. This, according to the Bible.
So, regardless of your exact interpretation of Satan or demons, does the Bible itself SUPPORT a belief that both EXIST? That is the question.

And the answer is NO!

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "Father, Lord of heaven and earth! I thank you because you have shown to the unlearned what you have hidden from the wise and learned.

Destroyer mαshchith', Εxοd. Xii, 23; ολοθρευτου 1 Cοr. x, 10), αn exterminator (see Βromel, De ángelï exterminátore, Jeri. 1685; also in the Τhesαur. theol. philοlog. V. Τ. i, 301 sq.).The Hebrews were accustomed by a figure to speak οf any superhuman agency as that of an angel (see Bush, Note οn Exοd. iii, 2); and whenever this had a providential aspect it was attributed to a diνine messenger (2 Kings xix, 35; 2 Sam. xxiν, 15, 16; Psα. lxxνiii, 49; Acts xii, 23).
2Sa 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshing place of Araunah the Jebusite.

My guess is that you never heard of Matthew 13:28 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)?
Mat 13:28 And he saith to them, A man, an enemy, did this; and the servants said to him, Wilt thou, then, that having gone away we may gather them up?

In a few short years, Isaac Newtonthen a little-known Cambridge scholar, but soon to be elected Fellow of the Royal Society and eventually rise to the presidency of that august institutionwould come under the spell of this diabolical misapprehension.
Newtons theological papers has not only confirmed these heresies, but has brought to light several others as well. Those who discounted the ontological reality of these malevolent beings did so against the powerful weight of tradition and the passionate rhetoric of orthodoxy. And yet this is exactly what Newton did.
Frank Manuel was the first to recognize Newtons unorthodoxy on Satan and, in his 1973 Freemantle Lectures he provided a valuable two paragraph outline of Newtons views on the subject by the conclusion of the seventeenth century and certainly in the early eighteenth century, with allowances for the occasional possible recrudescence of youthful superstitions, the devil seems to have been metamorphosed into a symbol for lusts of the flesh and his reality becomes far more questionable.
Using a manuscript corpus that is now larger than that available to Manuel, it is possible to expand upon this general schema. In his Language of the Prophets, which dates from the latter half of the first decade of the eighteenth century, Newton glosses the relevant text from Revelation 12 in the following way:
"And there appeared another wonder in heaven, & behold a great red Dragon [the Roman heathen Empire] having seven heads & ten horns & seven crowns upon his heads. This Dragon being the old serpent called the Devil & Satan, is that Devil who hath his seat in Pergamus, that is the Greek empire in the reign of the last horn of Daniels He Goat"

A literal devil does not now appear in Newtons apocalyptic system. Newton saw the serpent that tempted Eve to eat the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil as symbolic of the fleshly lust for her husband that filled her heart. Frank E. Manuel, The Religion of Isaac Newton (Oxford: Clarendon, 1974), pp. 5763;
Richard S.Westfall, Never at Rest: A Biography of Isaac Newton (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1980), pp. 31020.

Imagican said:
Is Satan an actual ENTITY according to the Bible? Does he have 'evil spirits', 'unclean spirits', what I call DEMONS, at his disposal, helping him accomplish his intent? Blessings, MEC

NO, God is in charge of all thinks in the heavens and upon the earth.
Newton saw the serpent that tempted Eve to eat the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil as symbolic of the fleshly lust for her husband that filled her heart.

Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

ChetSinger · Apr 6, 2015

Imagican said:
Over and over again here on the forum, I have encountered those that INSIST that there is NO Satan so far as a Rebellious Angel cast out of heaven. They INSIST that the word simply means: "Adversary" and can be used to denote ANY 'spirit' that is contrary to the will of God or His Son.

Most that take the stance that there is NO actual 'entity' that is named Satan also insist that the IDEA of an actual entity was created by the 'church'. That the words offered in the Bible have been altered by the 'church' in order to 'create' the ENTITY that is called Satan.

So, does the Bible TEACH us that Satan was an Angel that rebelled against God in heaven, and after a time, cast out of Heaven and down to this Earth along with one third of the other angels in heaven? Or is the entire IDEA something created by the 'church'?

Blessings,

MEC

Afaik, there is only one place in the scriptures where Satan, the devil, and the snake are identified as the same being. But there is one:

Then I saw an angel descending from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the abyss and a huge chain.

He seized the dragon the ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan and tied him up for a thousand years.

The angel then threw him into the abyss and locked and sealed it so that he could not deceive the nations until the one thousand years were finished. - Rev 20

This, combined with numerous NT passages identifying Satan or the devil as a sentient being is enough for me to believe that he is both real and the serpent involved in the Fall.

Imagican · Apr 7, 2015

Thanks Chet.

He man:

Matthew 4:24
And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

Matthew 8:16
When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick

Matthew 9:34
But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils.

Mark 1:32
And at even, when the sun did set, they brought unto him all that were diseased, and them that were possessed with devils.

Mark 1:34
And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him.

Mark 1:39
And he preached in their synagogues throughout all Galilee, and cast out devils.

Mark 16:9
Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

YLT:

James 2:19
thou -- thou dost believe that God is one; thou dost well, and the demons believe, and they shudder!

Deuteronomy 32:17
They sacrifice to demons -- no god! Gods they have not known -- New ones -- from the vicinity they came; Not feared them have your fathers!

Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things?

Matthew 8:31
and the demons were calling on him, saying, `If thou dost cast us forth, permit us to go away to the herd of the swine;'

Matthew 10:8
infirm ones be healing, lepers be cleansing, dead be raising, demons be casting out -- freely ye did receive, freely give.

Matthew 12:24
but the Pharisees having heard, said, `This one doth not cast out demons, except by Beelzeboul, ruler of the demons.

Funny, but I already explained that ALL the versions you previously listed that I have read in in the past, THEY ALL offer the SAME information concerning 'evil spirits', 'devils', 'demons', 'unclean spirits'.

These listed above are FROM the YLT. Young's Literal Translation. You say that demons DO NOT EXIST. Then you refer to a DIFFERENT translation of the Bible that actually USES the word DEMON.

And what purpose you propose your inserting things written by MEN in the 1970's is BEYOND me. Men can say or write ANYTHING. And any man can CLAIM that he is a scholar. So you posting what MEN have written that happens to agree with your theology means absolutely NOTHING to me. Less than NOTHING. For some of those same men may well be out in the woods right this minute looking for Bigfoot. But I can assure you, you won't find me on THAT expedition EITHER.

The question is NOT: "He man, do YOU believe that Satan or demons exist according to what you have READ written by MEN?" The question is: "Does the BIBLE support the existence of Satan or demons?"

I guess you have a difficult time understanding the question. For you chose to try and answer it by quoting things written by MEN instead of the Bible.

Now, I offered quotes from both the KJV of the Bible AND the YLT. They BOTH basically offer the SAME information. They BOTH offer that 'evil spirits' exist. The YLT actually USES the word 'demon'. Are you REALLY oblivious as to what your words indicate about yourself?

Once again, let me RE EMPHASIZE: I am not interested in your PERSONAL beliefs. The thread was QUITE clear in it's topic. It is NOT about 'personal belief', it is about what we are offered in THE BIBLE. And it's really not a DEBATE. For the Bible either DOES, or DOES NOT support the existence of Satan or demons. It's basically a YES or NO question. And once again, it is NOT a question of 'what' YOU believe of your own accord. It is what we are offered in the Bible that is the question.

And I can't help but wonder: With ALL that we are offered in the Bible concerning this issue, what could possibly be your OBSESSION that would lead you to insist that demonic influence 'doesn't exist'? What is the INFLUENCE that is leading you to insist that what the Bible offers concerning the existence of demons is UNTRUE? You can't use the BIBLE as the influence. So what IS the influence that is LEADING you to DENY the very words of the Bible? I would rather you answer THAT question than quote what other men have written according to the subject. I'm not really INTERESTED in what 'other men' have written. I am focused on the Bible. But since you continually interject, please explain to us where the INFLUENCE in YOU is coming from. MY influence IS the Bible. The Bible as well as PERSONAL experience. So what is YOUR influence?

Blessings,

MEC

he-man · Apr 7, 2015

Imagican said:
Matthew 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

Do not know where you got that, it is not from YLT. Here is the YLT: Mat 4:24 and his fame went forth to all Syria, and they brought to him all having ailments, pressed with manifold sicknesses and pains, and demoniacs, and lunatics, and paralytics, and he healed them. [YLT]

Imagican said:

Matthew 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick

Click to expand...

The actual YLT translation says all who were ill with infirmities, and the sicknesses: Mat 8:16 And evening having come, they brought to him many demoniacs, and he did cast out the spirits with a word, and did heal all who were ill, 17 that it might be fulfilled that was spoken through Isaiah the prophet, saying, `Himself took our infirmities, and the sicknesses he did bear.'

Imagican said:

YLT: James 2:19 thou -- thou dost believe that God is one; thou dost well, and the demons believe, and they shudder! These listed above are FROM the YLT. Young's Literal Translation.

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Funny but your KJV translates G1140 as devil 63 times. So which is it? devil? demon? satan? adversary? daemonic being? a deity?

Imagican said:

You say that demons DO NOT EXIST. Then you refer to a DIFFERENT translation of the Bible that actually USES the word DEMON.

Click to expand...

Perhaps you should learn what YLT really says and that you should not be teaching of demons:
1Ti 4:1 And the Spirit expressly speaketh, that in latter times shall certain fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons, [YLT]

Imagican said:

The question is: "Does the BIBLE support the existence of Satan or demons?" The YLT actually USES the word 'demon'. Are you REALLY oblivious as to what your words indicate about yourself?

Click to expand...

So why do you ignore what it says and try to teach the false religions of man, but do not listen to what God says in the Bible?
1Ti 4:1 And the Spirit expressly speaketh, that in latter times shall certain fall away from the faith, giving heed to
seducing spirits and teachings of demons, [YLT]

Imagican said:

For the Bible either DOES, or DOES NOT support the existence of Satan or demons. It's basically a YES or NO question.

Click to expand...

1Ti 4:1 And the Spirit expressly speaketh, that in latter times shall certain fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons, [YLT]

Imagican said:

I am focused on the Bible. But since you continually interject, please explain to us where the INFLUENCE in YOU is coming from. MY influence IS the Bible. The Bible as well as PERSONAL experience. So what is YOUR influence? Blessings, MEC

Click to expand...

The difference is that I pay attention and read what it says.
Destroyer mαshchith', Εxοd. Xii, 23; ολοθρευτου 1 Cοr. x, 10), αn exterminator (see Βromel, De ángelï exterminátore, Jeri. 1685; also in the Τhesαur. theol. philοlog. V. Τ. i, 301 sq.).The Hebrews were accustomed by a figure to speak οf any superhuman agency as that of an angel (see Bush, Note οn Exοd. iii, 2); and whenever this had a providential aspect it was attributed to a diνine messenger (2 Kings xix, 35; 2 Sam. xxiν, 15, 16; Psα. lxxνiii, 49; Acts xii, 23).

2Sa 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshing place of Araunah the Jebusite.

What does Job say? I will teach you:
Job 27:11 I will teach you by the hand of God: that which is with the Almighty will I not conceal.

Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

Job 27:22 For God shall cast upon him, and not spare: he would fain flee out of his hand.

Click to expand...

he-man · Apr 8, 2015

Imagican said:
Matthew 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

Do not know where you got that, it is not from YLT. Here is the YLT: Mat 4:24 and his fame went forth to all Syria, and they brought to him all having ailments, pressed with manifold sicknesses and pains, and demoniacs, and lunatics, and paralytics, and he healed them. [YLT]

Imagican said:
Matthew 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick

The actual YLT translation says all who were ill with infirmities, and the sicknesses: Mat 8:16 And evening having come, they brought to him many demoniacs, and he did cast out the spirits with a word, and did heal all who were ill, 17 that it might be fulfilled that was spoken through Isaiah the prophet, saying, `Himself took our infirmities, and the sicknesses he did bear.'

Imagican said:
YLT: James 2:19 thou -- thou dost believe that God is one; thou dost well, and the demons believe, and they shudder! These listed above are FROM the YLT. Young's Literal Translation.

Funny but your KJV translates G1140 as devil 63 times. So which is it? devil? demon? satan? adversary? daemonic being? a deity?

Imagican said:
You say that demons DO NOT EXIST. Then you refer to a DIFFERENT translation of the Bible that actually USES the word DEMON.

What does Job say? I will teach you:
Job 27:11 I will teach you by the hand of God: that which is with the Almighty will I not conceal.

Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

Job 27:22 For God shall cast upon him, and not spare: he would fain flee out of his hand.

Perhaps you should learn what YLT really says and that you should not be teaching of demons:
1Ti 4:1 And the Spirit expressly speaketh, that in latter times shall certain fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons, [YLT]

Imagican said:
The question is: "Does the BIBLE support the existence of Satan or demons?" The YLT actually USES the word 'demon'. Are you REALLY oblivious as to what your words indicate about yourself?

So why do you ignore what it says and try to teach the false religions of man, but do not listen to what God says in the Bible?
1Ti 4:1 And the Spirit expressly speaketh, that in latter times shall certain fall away from the faith, giving heed to
seducing spirits and teachings of demons, [YLT]

Imagican said:
For the Bible either DOES, or DOES NOT support the existence of Satan or demons. It's basically a YES or NO question.

1Ti 4:1 And the Spirit expressly speaketh, that in latter times shall certain fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons, [YLT]

Imagican said:
I am focused on the Bible. But since you continually interject, please explain to us where the INFLUENCE in YOU is coming from. MY influence IS the Bible. The Bible as well as PERSONAL experience. So what is YOUR influence? Blessings, MEC

The difference is that I pay attention and read what it says. God controls the Destroyer mαshchith', Εxοd. Xii, 23; ολοθρευτου 1 Cοr. x, 10), αn exterminator (see Βromel, De ángelï exterminátore, Jeri. 1685; also in the Τhesαur. theol. philοlog. V. Τ. i, 301 sq.).The Hebrews were accustomed by a figure to speak οf any superhuman agency as that of an angel (see Bush, Note οn Exοd. iii, 2); and whenever this had a providential aspect it was attributed to a diνine messenger (2 Kings xix, 35; 2 Sam. xxiν, 15, 16; Psα. lxxνiii, 49; Acts xii, 23).

2Sa 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshing place of Araunah the Jebusite.

he-man · Apr 9, 2015

And here it is from the YLT: Mat 4:24 and his fame went forth to all Syria, and they brought to him all having ailments, pressed with manifold sicknesses and pains, and demoniacs, and lunatics, and paralytics, and he healed them. [YLT]

The actual YLT translation says all who were ill with infirmities, and the sicknesses: Mat 8:16 And evening having come, they brought to him many demoniacs, and he did cast out the spirits with a word, and did heal all who were ill, 17 that it might be fulfilled that was spoken through Isaiah the prophet, saying, `Himself took our infirmities, and the sicknesses he did bear.'

Funny but your KJV translates G1140 as devil 63 times. So which is it? devil? demon? satan? adversary? daemonic being? a deity?

So what does Job say? I will teach you:
Job 27:11 I will teach you by the hand of God: that which is with the Almighty will I not conceal.

Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

Job 27:22 For God shall cast upon him, and not spare: he would fain flee out of his hand.

Perhaps you should learn what YLT really says and that you should not be teaching of demons:
1Ti 4:1 And the Spirit expressly speaketh, that in latter times shall certain fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons, [YLT]

So why do you ignore what it says and try to teach the false religions of man, but do not listen to what God says in the Bible?
1Ti 4:1 And the Spirit expressly speaketh, that in latter times shall certain fall away from the faith, giving heed to
seducing spirits and teachings of demons, [YLT]

The difference is that I pay attention and read what it says. God controls the Destroyer mαshchith', Εxοd. Xii, 23; ολοθρευτου 1 Cοr. x, 10), αn exterminator (see Βromel, De ángelï exterminátore, Jeri. 1685; also in the Τhesαur. theol. philοlog. V. Τ. i, 301 sq.).The Hebrews were accustomed by a figure to speak οf any superhuman agency as that of an angel (see Bush, Note οn Exοd. iii, 2); and whenever this had a providential aspect it was attributed to a diνine messenger (2 Kings xix, 35; 2 Sam. xxiν, 15, 16; Psα. lxxνiii, 49; Acts xii, 23).

2Sa 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshing place of Araunah the Jebusite.

Imagican · Apr 9, 2015

Are you SERIOUS???? Oh my. What lengths you will go to in order to remain in denial. Even to the point of PRETENDING that the words mean something DIFFERENT than what they offer:

1Ti 4:1 And the Spirit expressly speaketh, that in latter times shall certain fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons

What this is actually offering is this:

The Spirit, (Holy Spirit), without ANY doubts, that in latter times there will be those that fall away from the faith, (that means that they had to be FAITHFUL FIRST in order to FALL away), giving heed, (ALLOWING THE INFLUENCE OF), seducing spirits and teachings of demons, (No, he man, this is not referencing a FALSE teaching that demons EXIST, this is in reference to the DEMONS teaching men what they would have them believe instead of the HOLY Spirit). Nice try though. But all you've really shown ME is just how FAR you'll go in your denial.

For the words are CLEAR, not 'THE' teaching of demons as in someone teaching others that they exist, but the TEACHINGS, (get it? PLURAL. As in POSSESSIVE: the TEACHINGS of demons. Not teaching OF demons. BIG difference and one that you have obvious chosen to ignore or even worse, ALTER to suit your denial.

Every one of the quotes I offered under the heading YLT are STRAIGHT out of the Young's Literal Translation version of the Bible. I didn't quote Matthew 4:24, but let us examine it as YOU offered it:

Mat 4:24 and his fame went forth to all Syria, and they brought to him all having ailments, pressed with manifold sicknesses and pains, and demoniacs, and lunatics, and paralytics, and he healed them.

What would you say we could use to define a 'demoniac'? Well let's use what is offered. It is offered along with 'lunatics, and paralytics.

Let's see, the first is easy, a 'lunatic' is someone considered to be insane. A paralytic is even better. For it could be defined as one 'paralyzed' in some manner. Usually in reference to one's legs or arms. Perhaps even BOTH.

So let us compare 'demoniacs' to paralytics. If paralytic means someone paralyzed, the demoniacs OBVIOUSLY refers to someone infected with DEMONS.

I think I tried to warn you previously. The more you offer inane discernment of scripture, the more you destroy any semblance of credibility to any and ALL that are reading what you offer.

All the quotes that I offered from the YLT speak DIRECTLY of demons. The wording may be SLIGHTLY different from the KJV to the YLT but the MEANING is IDENTICAL. And it doesn't take a GREEK or ROCKET SCIENTIST to clearly SEE that it is YOU that are choosing to offer DENIAL of what is actually OFFERED in both the KJV and the YLT versions of the Bible.

It's really kind of sad, my friend. On occasion you speak as if you may have some sensibility. But then you turn right around and offered such inane offerings as your last. You contradict YOURSELF in your own posts.

Blessings,

MEC

Imagican · Apr 9, 2015

Been doing quite a bit of research lately. We are told that 'the world' will find what the Bible offers to be 'foolishness'. In other words, those that are living FOR 'this world' and
IN 'this world', will not UNDERSTAND what is truly offered in the Bible. And it seems that this is utterly OBVIOUS to ANY that truly DO believe and accept what we are offered in the Bible.

My research has been on this subject of demons. I was watching a show called, "American Justice" and the crime being profiled was that which took place back in 1990 in Gainesville, Florida. The person who confessed and was convicted of the crime was Danny Rollings. In a poem and some other writings he had described an 'entity' that he named, "Gemini", as being a name he attributed to an 'evil spirit' dwelling within himself. He offered in an interview with investigators that the 'evil spirit' dwelling within him didn't offer it's NAME. So he simply used the name 'Gemini' to reference it.

I remember seeing a movie many years ago called, "The Exorcist 3". In that movie, a serial killer who called himself, "Gemini", was committing atrocious acts and setting up the crime scenes in a manner that he KNEW would be utterly shocking to those that witnessed them. Cutting off heads and replacing them with heads of Jesus from statues. Draining every drop of blood from one victim. And he was using a chemical that paralyzed the victims so that they could actually be aware of what was happening to them but could do nothing to resist.

So I'm thinking. The Rollings murders took place in 1990. I seemed to remember the movie coming out back during that time period. So I look it up. The movie was released August 17th 1990. Danny's FIRST murders took place a mere SEVEN days later, on August 24th 1990. WOW!!! was my first thought. A mere SEVEN days after the movie was released.

So I then google in 'Danny Rollings and the movie Exorcist 3. The results were shocking to say the least. What came up was an article in the Orlando Sentinel, (I have lived in Orlando since 1971). And in the article is a statement from an interview with Rollings stating that he had SEEN the movie the day before his first murders in Gainesville. And admitted that the name 'Gemini' was derived from the MOVIE.

Now here is a man STATING that there was an 'evil spirit', an ENTITY dwelling within himself. It wouldn't reveal it's NAME so he simply used 'Gemini' as a name to denote it. And where did the inspiration to use the name come from? A movie in which a serial killer decapitates his victims and sets up body parts to be a shocking event to any that witnessed his handiwork.

So then I google: "Serial killers and demons". What I found was even MORE shocking. Every famous serial killer listed that had confessed to their crimes attributed them to DEMONS. EVERY ONE OF THEM.

You know, if there were 500 serial killers who had confessed. And five of them blamed demons for their acts. It would be quite easy to dismiss the idea as that of one trying to pass the 'buck'. You know, to try and make it appear that they weren't responsible for their crimes but some 'entity' that had entered them was responsible instead.

But when ALL that have offered confessions have offered the SAME story, the EVIDENCE would indicate that there is something BEYOND 'common' to their confessions. Get it: CONFESSIONS. These are people that described murdering people. Decapitating people. Raping dead bodies. Keeping body parts as momentos. Confessing exact details of their crimes. CONFESSIONS.

So WHY? Why would ALL of them confess to the same SOURCE of influence? Why would EVERY ONE of them confess that there was an EVIL ENTITY, an 'evil spirit', a DEMON that possessed them to commit their crimes?

Yeah, the world ignores their claims. Science would insist that it is a matter of 'upbringing' or traumatic events happening in their lives. Brain damage suffered from accidents. Just chemical imbalances or other ailments of their MINDS.

But from a Biblical perspective, can WE? Can those that claim to be followers of God's Word IGNORE the confessions of men who OPENLY admit that 'evil spirits' influenced them to commit atrocious crimes? How many demons are there and how easy is it NOW days to open doorways for them to enter?

What IF: What if demons communicate with each other through US? What if demons influence men to write stories? And through those stories they communicate with other demons when we read those stories? And someone reads a story and their DEMON influences them to make a MOVIE from the story so that through the movie, that demon can communicate with MILLIONS of other demons when we WATCH those movies?

And what if DEMONS influence men to make MUSIC? And the music is designed to communicate with OTHER demons? And what if it is the DEMONS within us that encourage us to LOVE music. Love MUSIC more than God or each other or even jobs and food. For I have known those that produce music and it is THEIR LIFE. They often give up EVERY THING ELSE in their lives for THEIR MUSIC. What could possibly be SO important in MUSIC that someone would sacrifice EVERYTHING in their lives for the SAKE of it?

And isn't it the same with ALL 'art'? Those that are most famous are those that MAKE 'art' their LIVES.

And look at the 'artists' that men have determined are MOST valuable in 'this world'. Vincent Van Gogh. A LUNATIC obviously possessed of DEMONS.

I bought a small booklet years ago and it contains letters written between Vincent and his brother. Unlike the stories and movies made about his life, the letters were quite revealing.

Both Vincent and his brother were DEVOUT 'Christians'. But it is apparent in Vincent's letters that he was INDEED, possessed of demons and KNEW IT.

Now, think about this: Vincent's art is utterly INANE. It has NO basis in REALITY. It is WHACKED out. So WHY do we find it SO compelling? What IF? What IF it really isn't as compelling to US as we THINK it is. What IF it is DEMONS within us that find it so compelling? What if demons LOVE for men to alter reality into something INANE and that is EXACTLY where the INSPIRATION come from? Demons PLEASING demons by using MEN to create what we call "ART"?

Why is "ART" so compelling? Why would men pay tens of millions of dollars for 'art' that is utterly INANE? Why would we place such MONETARY value on 'ART'? It would seem that MAMMON and ART are quite tightly bound. It would seem that the MORE one is compelled to worship MAMMON, the more INFLUENCE 'art' seems to have UPON them. And it would seem that MAMMON is a MAJOR influence in the minds and hearts of those that "CREATE art". Fame and fortune. They so often go hand in hand. WHY?

Certainly a TRUE follower of Christ would not place MAMMON above God or His Son. Nor would they place 'art' above God or His Son.

But a FAKE follower could do any of these things and attempt to convince others that it's OK. Not only OK. But attempt to convince others that it's GOD that supplied the INFLUENCE or the SKILL or the INSPIRATION to create 'art'. When in TRUTH, it may well be the preferred OUTLET of DEMONS. The way that THEY are able to get THEIR part of 'being God'. You know, God, the TRUE CREATOR? What if it's the manner in which demons are allowed by Satan to have THEIR part in being GOD? And since the majority of mankind is INFESTED with DEMONS, we can clearly SEE the 'things' that the WORLD finds compelling: "ART" being one of most compelling.

But would a TRUE follower of Christ be a PART of all that? Placing people and THINGS before God?

The Bible tells us that there would come a time when men would be worshipers of the CREATURE more than the 'Creator'. It would appear that this time has come among us LONG ago. That we have not fallen into this situation. But fell into it LONG ago and have done nothing but get DEEPER and DEEPER since.

Blessings,

MEC

he-man · Apr 11, 2015

Imagican said:
My research has been on this subject of demons. I remember seeing a movie many years ago called, "The Exorcist 3". MEC

Better stick to the Bible! Act 19:13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits of mental disposition; the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. 16 And the man in whom the evil which refers rather to essential character of spirit mental disposition was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

So Guess again: The existence of demons, while widely accepted, has always presented a theological difficulty. Since all things are ultimately the creation of the one God, the question of why should evil spirits exist has greatly exercised Jewish thought.

Apocalyptic literature offers the first attempt to explain their existence in a monotheistic context by claiming demons are really fallen angels. Rabbinic literature provides the first extensive source for Jewish demonology, though the information is scattered though many sources. In it, several explanations for the existence of demons are offered. They are a creation of the twilight of the sixth day (Pirkei Avot 5.6). Abraham ibn Ezra described demons as a product of the interaction of sunlight with smoke and vapor which then clings to the body, causing illness (Sefer ha-Atzmim). http://www.pantheon.org/articles/d/demons.html

In Judaism an angel is a spiritual entity in the service of God. Angels play a prominent role in Jewish thought throughout the centuries, though the exact meaning of the word has been subject to widely, at times wildly, different interpretations. In Judaism an angel is a spiritual entity in the service of God. Angels play a prominent role in Jewish thought throughout the centuries, though the exact meaning of the word has been subject to widely, at times wildly, different interpretations. http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/angels

Let us see what the Bible actually says: Ge 4:6 Then the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it."
James 1:14 Every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lusts...

The mythos of fallen angels eventually becomes a major theological motif in Christianity, but remains largely in the background in Rabbinic Judaism, exerting far less influence over subsequent Jewish cosmology (see Demons and Satan). Angels exist to do a single task (BM 86b; Gen. R. 50:2) and exalted as they may be, angels are subordinate to humanity, or at least the righteous (Gen. R. 21; Sand. 93a; Ned. 32a; Deut. R. 1).

Satan. Rebellious Angel or 'church creation'?

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