The Seven Holy Spirits of God

RevelationTestament · Apr 7, 2015

daq said:
The portion which you quoted from Isaiah 60 speaks of the holy city:
Your quote began with Isaiah 60:15 but the previous line reveals of whom this speaks:

Isaiah 60:14
14. The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee; The city of YHWH, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

Yes, Zion-Yerushalaim of above has a Redeemer, but Zion-Yerushalaim is not the Tsemach-Branch so your question to me seems illogical and out of context, (as I tried to suggest already).

Jeremiah 33:16
16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord[YHWH] our righteousness.
But the Branch is a man and a people who this is addressed to in verse 21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.

The Tsemach was with Elohim in the beginning, that is, the Word, the Torah, the Arm and Right Hand of the Father.

According to what scripture?

Does Torah need a Savior and Redeemer?

This is not speaking to the Torah, and no it doesn't. Neither does our Savior who is the Holy One of Israel. Neither does He suck the milk of the Gentiles so He is not the branch spoken of, but the is the Redeemer speaking.
The branch was clothed in garments of filth until he had a change of raiment.

The Father sent his Son in the somatikos-corporeal bodily form of a yonah-dove so that the world through him might be delivered. That one tabernacled with the man Yeshua who is the firstborn of the new creation having the Son of Elohim, Memra-Logos, in his heart and the Princely Power of the Empire, the Father, upon his shoulder:

All well and good. Jesus is the tree of life.

daq · Apr 8, 2015

RevelationTestament said:
The Tsemach was with Elohim in the beginning, that is, the Word, the Torah, the Arm and Right Hand of the Father.

Click to expand...

According to what scripture?

Zechariah 6:12-13
12. And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh YHWH Tsabaoth, saying, Behold, the man whose name is Tsemach-Branch; and he shall tsamach-sprout up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of YHWH:
13. Even he shall build the temple of YHWH; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be Priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

Zechariah 3:8-9
8. Hear now, Yhoshua haKohen haGadol, [Yhoshua bin Nun] thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men of an omen-sign: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant, Tsemach-Branch.
9. For behold the stone that I have laid before Yhoshua; upon one Stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith YHWH Tsabaoth, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Joshua 24:25-27
25. So Yhoshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem.
26. And Yhoshua wrote these words in the Cepher Torat Elohim, and took a great Stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the Sanctuary of YHWH.
27. And Yhoshua said unto all the people, Behold, this Stone shall be a witness unto us: for it hath heard all the words of YHWH which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest you deny your Elohim.

And upon the Witness Stone are seven fountain-eyes as HaNavi Zkaryah says:

Revelation 5:6
6. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four living beings, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as if having been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the Seven Spirits of Elohim sent forth into all the earth.

RevelationTestament said:
The branch was clothed in garments of filth until he had a change of raiment.

Not so but rather it was Yhoshua bin Nun that was clothed with dirty garments:

Zechariah 3:1-3
1. And he shewed me Yhoshua, haKohen haGadol, standing before the Malak of YHWH, and ha-Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.
2. And said YHWH [through the Malak, (Jude 1:9)] unto ha-Satan, YHWH rebuke thee, O Satan; even YHWH that hath chosen Yerushalaim rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
3. And was Yhoshua clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the Malak.
4. And he [the Malak] answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

Joshua 5:13-15
13. And it came to pass, when Yhoshua was by Yericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a Man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Yhoshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
14. And he said, Nay; but as Sar Tsaba YHWH am I now come. And Yhoshua fell on his face to the earth, and did homage, and said unto him, What saith Adoniy unto his servant?
15. And the Sar Tsaba YHWH said unto Yhoshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Yhoshua did so.

And it was the Sar Tsaba, (Captain of the Host) who gave Yhoshua clean raiment.
HaSar HaGadol is the same whose name is Tsemach-Branch, Yeshua HaMeshiach.

RevelationTestament · Apr 8, 2015

daq said:
Zechariah 6:12-13
12. And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh YHWH Tsabaoth, saying, Behold, the man whose name is Tsemach-Branch; and he shall tsamach-sprout up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of YHWH:
13. Even he shall build the temple of YHWH; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be Priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

Who is the other mountain?
10 Take of them of the captivity, even of Heldai, of Tobijah, and of Jedaiah, which are come from Babylon, and come thou the same day, and go into the house of Josiah the son of Zephaniah;

11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;
Here Joshua is again standing in the stead of the Branch.

Zechariah 3:8-9
8. Hear now, Yhoshua haKohen haGadol, [Yhoshua bin Nun] thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men of an omen-sign: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant, Tsemach-Branch.
9. For behold the stone that I have laid before Yhoshua; upon one Stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith YHWH Tsabaoth, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Joshua 24:25-27
25. So Yhoshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem.
26. And Yhoshua wrote these words in the Cepher Torat Elohim, and took a great Stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the Sanctuary of YHWH.
27. And Yhoshua said unto all the people, Behold, this Stone shall be a witness unto us: for it hath heard all the words of YHWH which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest you deny your Elohim.

OK

And upon the Witness Stone are seven fountain-eyes as HaNavi Zkaryah says:

Revelation 5:6
6. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four living beings, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as if having been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the Seven Spirits of Elohim sent forth into all the earth.

Didn't we learn there were two mountains? Now you are referencing the lamb with seven eyes which opens the seven seals. Each of these seals represent a 1000 yr period. We are now in the seventh, so these seven eyes have seen what the Lord had to say to them, and it is recorded. However, the seven eyes on the stone of Joshua, have not yet seen and spoken.
Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Not so but rather it was Yhoshua bin Nun that was clothed with dirty garments:

Zechariah 3:1-3
1. And he shewed me Yhoshua, haKohen haGadol, standing before the Malak of YHWH, and ha-Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.
2. And said YHWH [through the Malak, (Jude 1:9)] unto ha-Satan, YHWH rebuke thee, O Satan; even YHWH that hath chosen Yerushalaim rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
3. And was Yhoshua clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the Malak.
4. And he [the Malak] answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

6 And the angel of the Lord protested unto Joshua, saying,

7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

He is speaking to Joshua as a likeness of the Branch. He is not saying Joshua is the branch, however. But the change of garment is part of the likeness to be judge of the house - even so shall He bring forth His servant, the Branch who is plucked out of the fire.
Going back to Isaiah, Christ said He is the root of David. He is the stem of Jesse, The branch grew out of His root.

Joshua 5:13-15
13. And it came to pass, when Yhoshua was by Yericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a Man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Yhoshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
14. And he said, Nay; but as Sar Tsaba YHWH am I now come. And Yhoshua fell on his face to the earth, and did homage, and said unto him, What saith Adoniy unto his servant?
15. And the Sar Tsaba YHWH said unto Yhoshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Yhoshua did so.

And it was the Sar Tsaba, (Captain of the Host) who gave Yhoshua clean raiment.

It was those standing before Joshua. The Malak directed it.

HaSar HaGadol is the same whose name is Tsemach-Branch, Yeshua HaMeshiach.

Scripture please? It's not in any of the above scriptures.

daq · Apr 8, 2015

RevelationTestament said:
Who is the other mountain?
10 Take of them of the captivity, even of Heldai, of Tobijah, and of Jedaiah, which are come from Babylon, and come thou the same day, and go into the house of Josiah the son of Zephaniah;

Where did say I was explaining any mountains?

RevelationTestament said:
11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;
Here Joshua is again standing in the stead of the Branch.

Yes, Yehoshua ben Yotsadak was also a Kohen Gadol but that does not make him the same Yhoshua bin Nun of the Melki-Tzedek priesthood from chapter three. Also concerning the passage you have quoted there appear to be seven crowns:

The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house and his hands shall also finish it: and thou shalt know that YHWH Tsabaoth has sent me unto you! For who shall despise the abbreviated day? (Golgotha) They shall rejoice; for they shall see the stone of smelting in the hand of Zerubbabel: those seven are `Eyney YHWH, they sail as mariners and oarsmen, rowing and pushing through all the land. Then haNavi Zkaryah took from them of the captivity; Chelday the world, Tobiyah the goodness of Yah, Yda`yah, which is known of Yah, which were of the captivity having come from Babel; and haNavi Zkaryah went to the house of Yoshiyah, foundation of Yah, which is ben Tsphanyah, son of a secret of Yah, and haNavi Zkaryah took silver and gold, according to the word of YHWH, and made crowns, and set them upon the head of Yehoshua ben Yotsadaq, haKohen haGadol, and said: Thus says YHWH Tsabaoth: Behold, the man whose name is Tsemach-Branch, he shall sprout up from his place, and he shall build the temple of YHWH. Even he shall build the temple of YHWH; and he shall bear the glory, and he shall sit and rule upon his throne: he also shall be Kohen upon his throne, and the counsel of shalom peace is between the two of them. And the crowns shall be for Chelday, (the world) and for Chelem, (a dream) and for Tobiyah, (the goodness of Yah) and for Yda`yah, (known of Yah) and for Yoshiyah, (foundation of Yah) for Chen, (grace) ben Tsphanyah, (for grace is the son of the secret of Yah!) and those, (seven crowns) shall be for a memorial in the temple of YHWH. And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of YHWH, and you shall know that YHWH Tsabaoth has sent me unto you! (says the Malak).

RevelationTestament said:
OK
Didn't we learn there were two mountains? Now you are referencing the lamb with seven eyes which opens the seven seals. Each of these seals represent a 1000 yr period. We are now in the seventh, so these seven eyes have seen what the Lord had to say to them, and it is recorded. However, the seven eyes on the stone of Joshua, have not yet seen and spoken.
Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

6 And the angel of the Lord protested unto Joshua, saying,

7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

He is speaking to Joshua as a likeness of the Branch. He is not saying Joshua is the branch, however. But the change of garment is part of the likeness to be judge of the house - even so shall He bring forth His servant, the Branch who is plucked out of the fire.
Going back to Isaiah, Christ said He is the root of David. He is the stem of Jesse, The branch grew out of His root.

It was those standing before Joshua. The Malak directed it.

The man Yeshua is the Netser while Yeshua HaMeshiach is the Tsemach unless you have another way of counting forty two generations total in the Matthew genealogy. You may indeed have your own different answer but I have already heard most all and they have all been proven false to me by the Scripture. To each his or her own I suppose but likewise the Prophet Zechariah is clearly not referring to either Yhoshua bin Nun or Yehoshua ben Yotsadak as the man whose name is Tsemach-Branch.

RevelationTestament said:
HaSar HaGadol is the same whose name is Tsemach-Branch, Yeshua HaMeshiach.

Click to expand...

Scripture please? It's not in any of the above scriptures.

HaSar HaGadol? His name is Miyka'el:

Daniel 8:11 ~ Sar tsaba - Prince of the host.
Daniel 8:25 ~ Sar sariym - Prince of princes.
Daniel 12:1 ~ Miyka'el haSar haGadol - Miyka'el the Great Prince.
Jude 1:9 - Zechariah 3:2 - Joshua 5:13-15 ~ Miyka'el the Head-messenger.

Miyka'el is Sar Tsaba YHWH - Head of the congregation and Prince of princes:
Tsemach, Stone, Lamb, Dove, (Yonah) Menorah, Memra-Logos-Word of YHWH.

daq · Apr 8, 2015

TheBibleMan said:
The Seven Holy Spirits of God

Revelation 5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts,
and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain,
having seven horns and seven eyes,

which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

By the way, welcome to the board TBM.

RevelationTestament · Apr 8, 2015

daq said:
Where did say I was explaining any mountains?

You didn't. The vision says:
1 And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass.

13 Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

Daniel 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Yes, Yehoshua ben Yotsadak was also a Kohen Gadol but that does not make him the same Yhoshua bin Nun of the Melki-Tzedek priesthood from chapter three.

Who else would he be? All these passages are concerning Joshua as a figure of what is to come.

Also concerning the passage you have quoted there appear to be seven crowns:
The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house and his hands shall also finish it: and thou shalt know that YHWH Tsabaoth has sent me unto you! For who shall despise the abbreviated day? (Golgotha) They shall rejoice; for they shall see the stone of smelting in the hand of Zerubbabel: those seven are `Eyney YHWH, they sail as mariners and oarsmen, rowing and pushing through all the land.

It would be helpful if you would clarify the jump in scripture ie between visions, you are making from Zech 4 to Zech 6:10-16:

Then haNavi Zkaryah took from them of the captivity; Chelday the world, Tobiyah the goodness of Yah, Yda`yah, which is known of Yah, which were of the captivity having come from Babel; and haNavi Zkaryah went to the house of Yoshiyah, foundation of Yah, which is ben Tsphanyah, son of a secret of Yah, and haNavi Zkaryah took silver and gold, according to the word of YHWH, and made crowns, and set them upon the head of Yehoshua ben Yotsadaq, haKohen haGadol, and 0.

said: Thus says YHWH Tsabaoth: Behold, the man whose name is Tsemach-Branch, he shall sprout up from his place, and he shall build the temple of YHWH. Even he shall build the temple of YHWH; and he shall bear the glory, and he shall sit and rule upon his throne: he also shall be Kohen upon his throne, and the counsel of shalom peace is between the two of them. And the crowns shall be for Chelday, (the world) and for Chelem, (a dream) and for Tobiyah, (the goodness of Yah) and for Yda`yah, (known of Yah) and for Yoshiyah, (foundation of Yah) for Chen, (grace) ben Tsphanyah, (for grace is the son of the secret of Yah!) and those, (seven crowns) shall be for a memorial in the temple of YHWH. And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of YHWH, and you shall know that YHWH Tsabaoth has sent me unto you! (says the Malak).

Click to expand...

I don't count seven crowns there - maybe you can help me out with the Hebrew but I don't see it yet. You seem to be adding conjunctions. There are seven eyes though. I count 4 crowns. Remember there were 4 chariots.
BTW what version of Tanakh are you using?

The man Yeshua is the Netser while Yeshua HaMeshiach is the Tsemach unless you have another way of counting forty two generations total in the Matthew genealogy.

You lost me here. How does 42 generations make the branch? Are you speaking of some Hebrew custom? Yeshua is not the branch, but the vine tree.

You may indeed have your own different answer but I have already heard most all and they have all been proven false to me by the Scripture. To each his or her own I suppose but likewise the Prophet Zechariah is clearly not referring to either Yhoshua bin Nun or Yehoshua ben Yotsadak as the man whose name is Tsemach-Branch.

As I have said, Joshua is not the branch, but is standing in his stead, so if you make Yeshua the branch, you are saying He was pulled from the fire and given a change of raiment. Jesus was YHWH, son of El Elyon, from Deuteronomy - a fact the Masoretes were apparently uncomfortable with, but which is preserved in the Septuagint, the Targums, the Peshitta and a Dead Sea fragment.

HaSar HaGadol? His name is Miyka'el:

Daniel 8:11 ~ Sar tsaba - Prince of the host.
Daniel 8:25 ~ Sar sariym - Prince of princes.
Daniel 12:1 ~ Miyka'el haSar haGadol - Miyka'el the Great Prince.
Jude 1:9 - Zechariah 3:2 - Joshua 5:13-15 ~ Miyka'el the Head-messenger.

Miyka'el is Sar Tsaba YHWH - Head of the congregation and Prince of princes:
Tsemach, Stone, Lamb, Dove, (Yonah) Menorah, Memra-Logos-Word of YHWH.

Jesus is YHWH Elohim with the Father. Michael is not Jesus nor the branch.
Daniel 7:13
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

The ancient of days is Michael, one of the chief princes. Michael and the branch are not the same beings.

InTruthILive · Apr 9, 2015

Der Alter said:
Ask God what my answer means?

אך הנביא אשׁר יזיד לדבר דבר בשׁמי את אשׁר לא־צויתיו לדבר ואשׁר ידבר בשׁם אלהים אחרים ומת הנביא ההוא

Why did you tempt them to disobey God and commit a sin?

Matthew 4:7
Jesus said unto him,
It is written again,
Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

daq · Apr 9, 2015

InTruthILive said:
Originally Posted by Der Alter
Ask God what my answer means?
אך הנביא אשׁר יזיד לדבר דבר בשׁמי את אשׁר לא־צויתיו לדבר ואשׁר ידבר בשׁם אלהים אחרים ומת הנביא ההוא

Click to expand...

Why did you tempt them to disobey God and commit a sin?

Matthew 4:7
Jesus said unto him,
It is written again,
Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

And welcome to you too. I wonder also how many truly realize, when they quote such passages, that Deuteronomy 18:15-22 not only applies to Yeshua, who is "the Prophet" foretold in that passage according to Peter in Acts 3:20-23, but also the same Devarim passage applies to whoever it was that penned the book of the Revelation of Yeshua, (particularly Deuteronomy 18:22 which is two lines after what was quoted).

RevelationTestament · Apr 9, 2015

RevelationTestament said:
Jesus was YHWH, son of El Elyon, from Deuteronomy - a fact the Masoretes were apparently uncomfortable with, but which is preserved in the Septuagint, the Targums, the Peshitta and a Dead Sea fragment.

I am going to clarify what I meant. Here is the passage with the change highlighted:
“When ‘Elyon gave each nation its heritage,
when he divided the human race,
he assigned the boundaries of peoples
according to Isra’el’s population;
but Yahweh’s share was his own people,
Jacob his allotted heritage. -- Deu 32:8-9 KJV

the highlighted portion reads "sons of Israel" in Masoretic text

However, the Septuagint reads the angels of elohim
and a qumran text 4QDeut reads
bene ha el/elim/elohim(unknown because the text is broken) or the sons of the elohim thus here YHWH was the son which received Jacob - suggesting that later masoretes changed the text to make it more in line with monotheism
“When ‘Elyon gave each nation its heritage,
when he divided the human race,
he assigned the boundaries of peoples
according to the number of the sons of El/Elim/Elohim;
but Yahweh’s share was his own people,
Jacob his allotted heritage."

The Targums also support the reading of "Elohim" rather than "Israel."

This seems to mean that YHWH here was the son of Elyon - an idea blasphemous to "orthodox" Jews of the time of Christ.
With the advent of Christ, Christians would read this scripture to mean that as YHWH Christ was to inherit Jacob. Again, something Jews would not swallow.

Der Alte · Apr 9, 2015

daq said:
And welcome to you too. I wonder also how many truly realize, when they quote such passages, that Deuteronomy 18:15-22 not only applies to Yeshua, who is "the Prophet" foretold in that passage according to Peter in Acts 3:20-23, but also the same Devarim passage applies to whoever it was that penned the book of the Revelation of Yeshua, (particularly Deuteronomy 18:22 which is two lines after what was quoted).

But the person I was responding to, who claimed to have a direct line to God, did not know that.

daq · Apr 9, 2015

RevelationTestament said:
I am going to clarify what I meant. Here is the passage with the change highlighted:
When Elyon gave each nation its heritage,
when he divided the human race,
he assigned the boundaries of peoples
according to Israels population;
but Yahwehs share was his own people,
Jacob his allotted heritage. -- Deu 32:8-9 KJV

the highlighted portion reads "sons of Israel" in Masoretic text

However, the Septuagint reads the angels of elohim
and a qumran text 4QDeut reads
bene ha el/elim/elohim(unknown because the text is broken) or the sons of the elohim thus here YHWH was the son which received Jacob - suggesting that later masoretes changed the text to make it more in line with monotheism
When Elyon gave each nation its heritage,
when he divided the human race,
he assigned the boundaries of peoples
according to the number of the sons of El/Elim/Elohim;
but Yahwehs share was his own people,
Jacob his allotted heritage."

The Targums also support the reading of "Elohim" rather than "Israel."

This seems to mean that YHWH here was the son of Elyon - an idea blasphemous to "orthodox" Jews of the time of Christ.
With the advent of Christ, Christians would read this scripture to mean that as YHWH Christ was to inherit Jacob. Again, something Jews would not swallow.

Already knew and know where this goes and not interested because by the outcome of things clearly stated in the Scripture you are now by default, (from your own statement which you re-quoted from your previous post) calling Yeshua the heavenly Father, (who is clearly YHWH) and I already know where your argument ends up, (the so-called Divine Counsel). There are plenty of passages, such as 2 Samuel 22:14, Psalm 7:17, (YHWH Elyon) and Psalm 9:1-2, to name a few, which refute such theories in that they clearly state that YHWH himself is Elyon Most High. We also are called elohim, (to whom the Memra of Elohim has come) and therefore should be careful not to put ourselves and our own ideas and doctrines before him, (because we break the first commandment when we do so, O ye little elohim of Exodus 20:3).

Der Alter said:
But the person I was responding to, who claimed to have a direct line to God, did not know that.

Yes and it was something you posted to another person so I left it alone as not my business. However now someone else brought it back up and I have attempted to use the Scripture passage from which the quote was taken so as to make an entirely different point.

Der Alte · Apr 9, 2015

RevelationTestament said:
I am going to clarify what I meant. Here is the passage with the change highlighted:
When Elyon gave each nation its heritage,
when he divided the human race,
he assigned the boundaries of peoples
according to Israels population;
but Yahwehs share was his own people,
Jacob his allotted heritage. -- Deu 32:8-9 KJV

the highlighted portion reads "sons of Israel" in Masoretic text

However, the Septuagint reads the angels of elohim
and a qumran text 4QDeut reads
bene ha el/elim/elohim(unknown because the text is broken) or the sons of the elohim thus here YHWH was the son which received Jacob - suggesting that later masoretes changed the text to make it more in line with monotheism
When Elyon gave each nation its heritage,
when he divided the human race,
he assigned the boundaries of peoples
according to the number of the sons of El/Elim/Elohim;
but Yahwehs share was his own people,
Jacob his allotted heritage."

The Targums also support the reading of "Elohim" rather than "Israel."

This seems to mean that YHWH here was the son of Elyon - an idea blasphemous to "orthodox" Jews of the time of Christ.
With the advent of Christ, Christians would read this scripture to mean that as YHWH Christ was to inherit Jacob. Again, something Jews would not swallow.

THE TARGUM OF ONKELOS ON THE SEPHER ELLEH HADDEBARIM OR BOOK OF DEUTERONOMY SECTION OF THE TORAH XLIV TITLE DEBARIM

(9) Remember the days of old, consider the years of generation and generation; ask thy fathers, and they will show thee, thy elders, and they will tell thee. For the Lord's portion is His people, Jakob is the lot of His inheritance. (10) He satisfied their wants in the land of the wilderness, in the dry place where there was no water; He placed them round about His Shekinah; He taught them the words of His law; He kept them as the apple of His eye.

RevelationTestament · Apr 9, 2015

daq said:
Already knew and know where this goes and not interested because by the outcome of things clearly stated in the Scripture you are now by default, (from your own statement which you re-quoted from your previous post) calling Yeshua the heavenly Father, (who is clearly YHWH) and I already know where your argument ends up, (the so-called Divine Counsel).

I have not called Yeshua heavenly Father, and He is not. He will be called our Eternal Father per His inheritance. I am curious how you resolve several scriptures saying the branch will be called YHWH, if you believe no one but heavenly Father can be called YHWH? It is not my "argument" either. I am merely showing what the scriptures say.
I thought you were the one so concerned about being scriptural:

You may indeed have your own different answer but I have already heard most all and they have all been proven false to me by the Scripture.

There are plenty of passages, such as 2 Samuel 22:14, Psalm 7:17, (YHWH Elyon) and Psalm 9:1-2, to name a few, which refute such theories in that they clearly state that YHWH himself is Elyon Most High. We also are called elohim, (to whom the Memra of Elohim has come) and therefore should be careful not to put ourselves and our own ideas and doctrines before him, (because we break the first commandment when we do so, O ye little elohim of Exodus 20:3).

Yes, there are plenty of scriptures which tell us that El Elyon, our Heavenly Father is YHWH - I agree. I also agree that Jeshua is not El Elyon. However, there are scriptures which clearly state others shall be called YHWH, which I have already posted. Further, Deut 18 says:
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Christ Himself said Jerusalem would not see Him again until they said blessed is He who cometh in the name of the Lord ie YWHW. I posit He literally came as YHWH Elohim, and is YHWH Elohim with the Father, per scripture.

Further, in several places, Jesus speaks in the OT as YHWH which I have posted in my other thread - unless you believe Judah was raised with heavenly Father's dead body:

Isaiah 26:4&19
4 Trust ye in the Lord for ever: for in the Lord Jehovah is everlasting strength:

19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

If Heavenly Father says others are elohim, then they are. If He says others are or will be YHWH then they are, and are or will be one with Him, since He cannot lie. As you note Heavenly Father does call others Elohim. However, when you say "us" I will point out that this was in the law to the Hebrews. From the very beginning we have Elohim saying let us make man in OUR image. And if you believe the NT, the world was created by and through Jesus Christ. Hebrews quotes Psalms as telling the Son, "thou, O Elohim, ..." So clearly Christ is Elohim with the Father per scripture, which you say you follow. So if Christ is Elohim with the Father, why cannot He be YWHW Elohim with the Father? esp since letter by letter YHWH means behold the hand, behold the nail? Jesus lived the very name. Maybe you should ask yourself why the Father has this name, and why He shares it with Christ "as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than [the angels]." Heb 1:4.

If you believe I am wrong, show me scripturally how so, since I follow where scripture leads. By the same token I merely ask others to believe what the scriptures say without hemhawing and making excuses why not to believe them.

daq · Apr 9, 2015

RevelationTestament said:
I have not called Yeshua heavenly Father, and He is not. He will be called our Eternal Father per His inheritance. I am curious how you resolve several scriptures saying the branch will be called YHWH, if you believe no one but heavenly Father can be called YHWH? It is not my "argument" either. I am merely showing what the scriptures say.
I thought you were the one so concerned about being scriptural:
Yes, there are plenty of scriptures which tell us that El Elyon, our Heavenly Father is YHWH - I agree. I also agree that Jeshua is not El Elyon. However, there are scriptures which clearly state others shall be called YHWH, which I have already posted. Further, Deut 18 says:
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Christ Himself said Jerusalem would not see Him again until they said blessed is He who cometh in the name of the Lord ie YWHW. I posit He literally came as YHWH Elohim, and is YHWH Elohim with the Father, per scripture.

Further, in several places, Jesus speaks in the OT as YHWH which I have posted in my other thread - unless you believe Judah was raised with heavenly Father's dead body:

Isaiah 26:4&19

4 Trust ye in the Lord for ever: for in the Lord Jehovah is everlasting strength:

19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

If Heavenly Father says others are elohim, then they are. If He says others are or will be YHWH then they are, and are or will be one with Him, since He cannot lie. As you note Heavenly Father does call others Elohim. However, when you say "us" I will point out that this was in the law to the Hebrews. From the very beginning we have Elohim saying let us make man in OUR image. And if you believe the NT, the world was created by and through Jesus Christ. Hebrews quotes Psalms as telling the Son, "thou, O Elohim, ..." So clearly Christ is Elohim with the Father per scripture, which you say you follow. So if Christ is Elohim with the Father, why cannot He be YWHW Elohim with the Father? esp since letter by letter YHWH means behold the hand, behold the nail? Jesus lived the very name. Maybe you should ask yourself why the Father has this name, and why He shares it with Christ "as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than [the angels]." Heb 1:4.

If you believe I am wrong, show me scripturally how so, since I follow where scripture leads. By the same token I merely ask others to believe what the scriptures say without hemhawing and making excuses why not to believe them.

Again it is not that I do not have answers from the Scripture for even everything that you have suggested but that none of it would be on-topic and you ask now for answers the size of a book in a thread that is not of your own making. There is nowhere that the Tetragrammaton is used for anyone else besides The One for whom it is always used throughout TaNaK. As for who is the Father you do err and why should I not think that you saw this post from another thread where you also were posting? You posted immediately before this post, in fact a mere thirteen minutes before I posted this, which was on March 28 of this year, yet you said nothing in response to it, (though I understand it was not directed to you).

daq said:
Moses calls Him Father:

Deuteronomy 32:6 Restored Name KJV
32:6 Do ye thus requite YHWH, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?

Isaiah calls Him Father:

Isaiah 63:11-19 Restored Name KJV
63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his Set-apart Spirit within him?
63:12 That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?
63:13 That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble?
63:14 As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of YHWH caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.
63:15 Look down from heaven, and behold from the habitation of thy holiness and of thy glory: where is thy zeal and thy strength, the sounding of thy bowels and of thy mercies toward me? are they restrained?
63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O YHWH, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
63:17 O YHWH, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.
63:18 The people of thy holiness have possessed it but a little while: our adversaries have trodden down thy sanctuary.
63:19 We are thine: thou never barest rule over them; they were not called by thy name.

Jeremiah states that He desires we call Him "my Father" and this has to do with the covenant which was broken even before Moshe came down from the mountain because of the golden calf incident. There is no more "marriage" covenant from the beginning because of this. The Prophet Jeremiah is explaining that one must now become a son. The so-called "marriage covenant" was broken before Moshe even cam down from the mountain the first time and finished off with the breaking of the first set of tablets with the Ten Words. This is exactly the template which Yeshua also follows knowing these things:

Jeremiah 3:1-5 Restored Name KJV
3:1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith YHWH
3:2 Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.
3:3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a harlot's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.
3:4 Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, My father, thou art the guide of my youth?
3:5 Will he reserve his anger for ever? will he keep it to the end? Behold, thou hast spoken and done evil things as thou couldest.

In fact one cannot even be placed among His sons if the same will not repent and call Him Father:

Jeremiah 3:11-13 Restored Name KJV
3:11 And YHWH said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
3:12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith YHWH; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith YHWH, and I will not keep anger for ever.
3:13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against YHWH thy Elohim, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith YHWH.

Jeremiah 3:17-19
3:17 At that time they shall call Yerushalaim the throne of YHWH; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of YHWH, to Yerushalaim: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
3:18 In those days the house of Yhudah shall walk with the house of Yisrael, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.
3:19 But I said, How shall I put thee among the baniym-sons, and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, "My father", and shalt not turn away from me.

Who then does Yeshua call his heavenly Father?
If you say it is not YHWH then you violate virtually all of TaNaK.

Be default you have indeed suggested that Yeshua is the Father by your teaching because you clearly stated in your own words that "Yeshua is YHWH" when you should have known that YHWH himself wants us to call him "my Father" and basically all of TaNaK views Him as our Father. So my question then to you is the same here as it was to the other poster in the other thread:

Who then is it that Yeshua calls his heavenly Father?
If you say it is not YHWH then you violate virtually all of TaNaK.
If you say it is YHWH then Yeshua is not YHWH.

RevelationTestament · Apr 9, 2015

Der Alter said:
THE TARGUM OF ONKELOS ON THE SEPHER ELLEH HADDEBARIM OR BOOK OF DEUTERONOMY SECTION OF THE TORAH XLIV TITLE DEBARIM

(9) Remember the days of old, consider the years of generation and generation; ask thy fathers, and they will show thee, thy elders, and they will tell thee. For the Lord's portion is His people, Jakob is the lot of His inheritance. (10) He satisfied their wants in the land of the wilderness, in the dry place where there was no water; He placed them round about His Shekinah; He taught them the words of His law; He kept them as the apple of His eye.

Yes, we see that the Jews were not the most reliable of translators - at least when it comes to other languages. The "Most High" seems to get edited out too. I confess to not double checking the targums, but it was something I read, which appears to not be reliable. But I will note that the Targums seem to be kind of all over the place with regard to this scripture. I will look into it further.

RevelationTestament · Apr 9, 2015

daq said:
Again it is not that I do not have answers from the Scripture for even everything that you have suggested but that none of it would be on-topic and you ask now for answers the size of a book in a thread that is not of your own making. There is nowhere that the Tetragrammaton is used for anyone else besides The One for whom it is always used throughout TaNaK. As for who is the Father you do err and why should I not think that you saw this post from another thread where you also were posting? You posted immediately before this post, in fact a mere thirteen minutes before I posted this, which was on March 28 of this year, yet you said nothing in response to it, (though I understand it was not directed to you).

I know who the Father is - He is El Elyon, the Most High El - I do not err. However, per Isaiah 9:6, Jesus inherits certain of His titles - such as El Gibbor, and Eternal Father - the question is when. Per numerous scriptures others inherit the title YHWH. Why would God say something that would not be so? Why would He give His name to others? You treat it as blasphemous when it is God who says it - not me. You claim it is not used of anyone else besides El Elyon, when He uses it of the branch who He clearly is not, and of the people of Jerusalem, which He clearly is not. My guess is there is some contrived interpretation of why He does not mean what He seems to say. I will listen to it, but it will take more than a bunch of fast talk to ignore the plain meaning of the scriptures.

Be default you have indeed suggested that Yeshua is the Father by your teaching because you clearly stated in your own words that "Yeshua is YHWH" when you should have known that YHWH himself wants us to call him "my Father" and basically all of TaNaK views Him as our Father.

Sometimes that is Christ speaking as YHWH - here we clearly disagree, as for example the case where YHWH says He has engraven "you" on my "palms." You went off on a long tangent on how that supposedly does not mean the palms of His hands, while I pointed out that it is the same word clearly used for hands elsewhere.
How about this one: "10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." Zech 12.
Is it possible for Heavenly Father and Jesus to say this?

So my question then to you is the same here as it was to the other poster in the other thread:

Who then is it that Yeshua calls his heavenly Father?

El Elyon, the "one true Elohim."

If you say it is not YHWH then you violate virtually all of TaNaK.

Sure He is also YHWH, just like He is also Elohim. The fact that they are both Elohim does not mean El Elyon is not His Father. Indeed Elohim means something like the family of stone/immovable force - my guess is you will dispute that, but I will welcome that discussion. If you want we can move it to another thread.

If you say it is YHWH then Yeshua is not YHWH.

If I say it is Elohim, does that mean Jesus is not Elohim? YHWH is a name or title. Scripture says more than one being can hold this title - kinda like more than one being can be and are Elohim. Per scripture only the Father is the Father of all, and only He is El Elyon. Those are titles. He never ascribes the title of Most High to anyone else in the world - even Christ. However, He does say others will inherit the name YHWH, which I believe means something like I am the way/life/word, which Christ is.

Anyway, we are probably not going to see eye to eye here, but I do appreciate your time, and have enjoyed discussing these things with you. My purpose is not to force an unwanted interpretation. I can only show what I see in the scriptures - it is usually viewed as unorthodox etc which doesn't really concern me. My concern is to honor the word....
Cheers

daq · Apr 10, 2015

RevelationTestament said:
I know who the Father is - He is El Elyon, the Most High El - I do not err. However, per Isaiah 9:6, Jesus inherits certain of His titles - such as El Gibbor, and Eternal Father - the question is when. Per numerous scriptures others inherit the title YHWH. Why would God say something that would not be so? Why would He give His name to others? You treat it as blasphemous when it is God who says it - not me. You claim it is not used of anyone else besides El Elyon, when He uses it of the branch who He clearly is not, and of the people of Jerusalem, which He clearly is not. My guess is there is some contrived interpretation of why He does not mean what He seems to say. I will listen to it, but it will take more than a bunch of fast talk to ignore the plain meaning of the scriptures.

Sometimes that is Christ speaking as YHWH - here we clearly disagree, as for example the case where YHWH says He has engraven "you" on my "palms." You went off on a long tangent on how that supposedly does not mean the palms of His hands, while I pointed out that it is the same word clearly used for hands elsewhere.
How about this one: "10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." Zech 12.
Is it possible for Heavenly Father and Jesus to say this?
El Elyon, the "one true Elohim."
Sure He is also YHWH, just like He is also Elohim. The fact that they are both Elohim does not mean El Elyon is not His Father. Indeed Elohim means something like the family of stone/immovable force - my guess is you will dispute that, but I will welcome that discussion. If you want we can move it to another thread.
If I say it is Elohim, does that mean Jesus is not Elohim? YHWH is a name or title. Scripture says more than one being can hold this title - kinda like more than one being can be and are Elohim. Per scripture only the Father is the Father of all, and only He is El Elyon. Those are titles. He never ascribes the title of Most High to anyone else in the world - even Christ. However, He does say others will inherit the name YHWH, which I believe means something like I am the way/life/word, which Christ is.

Anyway, we are probably not going to see eye to eye here, but I do appreciate your time, and have enjoyed discussing these things with you. My purpose is not to force an unwanted interpretation. I can only show what I see in the scriptures - it is usually viewed as unorthodox etc which doesn't really concern me. My concern is to honor the word....
Cheers

Yep, we end back at the same old arguments anyways. But for the record I do not believe that the most common renderings of your Isaiah 9:6 "proof text" are anywhere close to being correct, (of which the most critical portion is not even found in the Septuagint by the way). The closest rendering of the Masoretic, to what I believe it truly says, may be found in the Young's Literal Bible Translation:

Isaiah 9:6 YLT (Young's Literal Bible Translation)
6. For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

The "Princely Power", (of the Empire) is the Father upon his shoulder. It is the Son Yeshua who calls the name of the Father "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, (or Eternal Father) Prince of Peace". These are all titles with which the Son glorifies the Father as it clearly states in this rendering. Just because someone else renders something into English the way they see fit, (to enhance a premeditated paradigm) does not mean that their translation is now what it says. When the man Yeshua was immersed there were two doves and two different statements which were made and have been recorded for us: the Son-Memra entered into his heart and abode-remained while the Spirit of the Father abode-remained with him, (upon his shoulder). Cheers to you too, sincerely, nice talking.

RevelationTestament · Apr 10, 2015

daq said:
Yep, we end back at the same old arguments anyways. But for the record I do not believe that the most common renderings of your Isaiah 9:6 "proof text" are anywhere close to being correct, (of which the most critical portion is not even found in the Septuagint by the way). The closest rendering of the Masoretic, to what I believe it truly says, may be found in the Young's Literal Bible Translation:

Isaiah 9:6 YLT (Young's Literal Bible Translation)
6. For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

I realize the Septuagint is not a reliable version of the law. It was probably translated by Jews who I have noted were not the most reliable translators. They kept the TaNaK faithfully copied, but when it came time to translating into other languages, clear theological biases seem to creep in. The Septuagint makes no attempt to keep the name of Jahovah, but simply substitutes the common Greek Lord, Kurios. In critical places such as Isa 9:6, things get changed as well. The Septuagint was probably created as part of the effort of the Alexandrian library to keep a record of all the Jewish books - hence it has later books not a part of the TaNaK, such as the Maccabees, spurious additions to Daniel, etc.

The "Princely Power", (of the Empire) is the Father upon his shoulder. It is the Son Yeshua who calls the name of the Father "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, (or Eternal Father) Prince of Peace". These are all titles with which the Son glorifies the Father as it clearly states in this rendering.

Let us examine your claim that the "princely power" was the Father and was not the government of the Father being given to the Son.
Isa 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

Jesus understood the law and lived it. The Father gives Him His glory because He made the law honorable, and followed the Father in His Way - something man seems yet to grasp.

Just because someone else renders something into English the way they see fit, (to enhance a premeditated paradigm) does not mean that their translation is now what it says. When the man Yeshua was immersed there were two doves and two different statements which were made and have been recorded for us: the Son-Memra entered into his heart and abode-remained while the Spirit of the Father abode-remained with him, (upon his shoulder). Cheers to you too, sincerely, nice talking.

There are numerous scriptures on the subject, as you can see, in which the Son inherits the government or "power of prince," His glory, His mountains, etc. In time the Jews will see that Jesus will also inherit all His titles, and be our Father, rather than just living the will of the Father, and revealing the Father to us. That is the birthright of the only begotten Son.

FutureAndAHope · Apr 15, 2015

In regards to the original post, I believe that the Holy Spirit is made up of seven individual entities, or personalities, or facets (not necessarily persons). This is shown through out scripture. It is too large a topic to discuss in a single post, so I have put a link to my site where I detail this theory using scripture.

The Seven Spirits of God used to explain the Trinity

InTruthILive · Apr 19, 2015

Der Alter said:
But the person I was responding to, who claimed to have a direct line to God, did not know that.

Or you do not know that you do not know that you are incorrect with what you believe about them.

The Seven Holy Spirits of God

Our God is a consuming fire.

Messianic

Our God is a consuming fire.

Messianic

Messianic

Our God is a consuming fire.

By The Spirit of God

Messianic

Our God is a consuming fire.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Messianic

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Our God is a consuming fire.

Messianic

Our God is a consuming fire.

Our God is a consuming fire.

Messianic

Our God is a consuming fire.

Just me

By The Spirit of God

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