Breaking News: There's Only One Abomination of Desolation!

Straightshot · Apr 6, 2015

"All the facts are given. There's only one abomination of desolation and it lasted until the consummation."

But you have the wrong setting and the wrong time frame .... the "abomination" that the Lord and Daniel speak of is still a future event out in front of us

precepts · Apr 6, 2015

There's no verse in the old or new testament that supports an abomination that maketh desolate as future. Every verse on the topic's context is greek or NT temple destruction related. You are taking the facts totally out of context.

Straightshot · Apr 6, 2015

No .... I am placing scripture in the proper context

There are [Zechariah 14:5-6; Daniel 8:9-14; 9:27; Matthew 24:15-16; Revelation 12:6; 12:14]

If you are going to teach scripture to others don't miss this truth

.... the events of the above passages of scripture all agree and have never yet taken place .... all future

precepts · Apr 6, 2015

Straightshot said:
No .... I am placing scripture in the proper context

No, you are not.

Straightshot said:
There are [Zechariah 14:5-6; Daniel 8:9-14; 9:27; Matthew 24:15-16; Revelation 12:6; 12:14]

I already gave the context when the abomination is set up in the opening post and it's not future tense. Dan 8:9-14 is done by the greek little horn during the reign of the Seleucid empire. Zech 14:5-6 has nothing to do with the abomination, but of Christ descent on the mount of Olives. Mat 24;15-16 refers back to Daniel's definition of the abomination while proving the tribulation happens shortly after the NT temple destruction. And Rev 12:6 & 14 has nothing to do with the abomination of desolation. You are taking all of the verses out of context, and ignoring the foundational facts.

I noticed you change up some of the verses, leaving out Rev 11:2. Did you realize it was out of context?

Straightshot said:
If you are going to teach scripture to others don't miss this truth

I am not teaching anyone anything. I am simply stating the obvious facts that the spirit of Antichrist wants the world to overlook.

Straightshot said:
.... the events of the above passages of scripture all agree and have never yet taken place .... all future

Please!

Codger · Apr 6, 2015

precepts said:
I don't have the time to go thru this with you, but you haven't proven squat! The fact that each chapter that defines the abomination in Daniel's context is greek proves there's only one abomination of desolation. You have to ignore all the foundational facts I provided to post fiction. Mat 24 and Mk 13 proves the tribulation happened after the temple destruction etc. The Pharisees and Sadducees were the result of the Jews forsaking of the covenant, their forsaking of the Aaronic high priestly lineage etc. Facts you have to ignore in order to promote your fictitious doctrine.

What is it about the history that is inaccurate? You don't have time - the real reason is you can't refute history with your futurist fantasies and misinterpretations.

Straightshot · Apr 6, 2015

"I noticed you change up some of the verses, leaving out Rev 11:2. Did you realize it was out of context?"

Revelation 11:2 is not out of context .... another verse referring to a future event when the followers of the beast will overrun Israel, Jerusalem, and the temple mount, and occupy for 42 months [Revelation 13:1-5]

.... and a believing remnant of Israel will flee for the Lord's protection during the period [Zechariah 14:5-6; Matthew 24:15-16; Revelation 12:6; 12:14]

precepts · Apr 6, 2015

Codger said:
What is it about the history that is inaccurate?

Your historic account has nothing to do with the scriptural facts. The Maccabee were the result of the forsaking of the covenant, a foundational fact! Foundational fact #2: The abomination last until the consummation (Dan 9:27). Foundational fact #3: The sanctuary is cleansed after 2,300 days, not after 3 1/2 yrs as the Maccabees claim (Dan 8:13-14), and if it last until the consummation, it cant be 2.300 days, but years. Foundational facts you can't logically deny.

Codger said:
You don't have time - the real reason is you can't refute history with your futurist fantasies and misinterpretations.

You have it backwards. I already provided the facts that you purposely ignored, instead of addressing them in your response. I don't have to time to repeat what I have already said as if you haven't read what I said.

Your historic accounts did not refute the facts I provided. Prove what I said is wrong, then you can say what I said is fantasies and misinterpretations. Saying so without any reproofs is purely illogical and fanatical.

precepts · Apr 6, 2015

Straightshot said:
"I noticed you change up some of the verses, leaving out Rev 11:2. Did you realize it was out of context?"

Revelation 11:2 is not out of context .... another verse referring to a future event when the followers of the beast will overrun Israel, Jerusalem, and the temple mount, and occupy for 42 months

.... and a believing remnant of Israel will flee for the Lord's protection during the period

Mat 24 and Mk 13 proves the tribulation was shortly after the NT temple destruction. Why don't you comprehend that?

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
====================================
Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

What does the phrases "for then shall be the tribulation" and "for in those days" mean? That's the 100% proof of the tribulation being in that time.

Your theory is void of logic. The context is NT time, that generation.

You are ignoring the facts and taking them out of context.

Straightshot · Apr 6, 2015

No .... all that is given of the events of the time of the end simply did not occur in 70 AD

Much bending would have to done for your conclusion

.... and I believe that you know this

Codger · Apr 6, 2015

Your historic account has nothing to do with the scriptural facts. The Maccabee were the result of the forsaking of the covenant, a foundational fact! Foundational fact #2: The abomination last until the consummation (Dan 9:27). Foundational fact #3: The sanctuary is cleansed after 2,300 days, not after 3 1/2 yrs as the Maccabees claim (Dan 8:13-14), and if it last until the consummation, it cant be 2.300 days, but years. Foundational facts you can't logically deny. {/quote]

Now you have become a historical revisionist. You know everything more accurately than all of the eyewitnesses of history - Like Josephus. I'm not sure that I've seen anyone distort the truth more than in your posts here. Well this is typical Futurist nonsense again. A total denial of history, common sense, and logic. All futurists do is tell a fantastic story with all of their disconnected and fantasy beliefs with only out of context "cherry picked proof texts" as their authority. I've seen it a million times and there is no cure for this that I have found..

You have it backwards. I already provided the facts that you purposely ignored, instead of addressing them in your response. I don't have to time to repeat what I have already said as if you haven't read what I said.

Click to expand...

You have no facts at all only badly connected "Proof texts" that are completely taken out of the context of the books from which they are drawn.

Your historic accounts did not refute the facts I provided. Prove what I said is wrong, then you can say what I said is fantasies and misinterpretations. Saying so without any reproofs is purely illogical and fanatical.

Click to expand...

One thing that Futurists cannot ever do and I have yet to see them do it even once. You cannot take the text from Daniel and go through it word for word and lline for line like I did and give an in context interpretation. You cannot do it and would rather cling to your fantasies. instead of doing the work of actually studying the book as it was written to the intended audience.

It's just like "The Antichrist." If you actually study the text there is no evidence anywhere that this is one specific person. There is no support for the idea that he will not appear after the 20th century. And there is no support that this Antichristos is outside of the Church. Soon they run amok and now this Antichrist is the same as "the man of Sin" or "the son of perdition". Not to mention the "beast." They are always linking similar phrases entities, and words together when therewere none.

Lets see you go through the text of Daniel word for word and see if your doctrines hold up.

precepts · Apr 6, 2015

Straightshot said:
No .... all that is given of the events of the time of the end simply did not occur in 70 AD

Talk is cheap. Prove it.

I proved the tribulation was NT time:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
====================================
Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Straightshot said:
Much bending would have to done for your conclusion

.... and I believe that you know this

You know you're the one bending, the one who's theories are void of logic and out of context.

Bible2 · Apr 7, 2015

precepts said in post 16:

Mat 24 and Mk 13 specifically states the tribulation occurred shortly after the temple destruction.

Note that just as the highly detailed tribulation events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 find no historical fulfillment, so the tribulation events of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 find no historical fulfillment. For example, Luke 21:24 refers to the same future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), the details of which time period are shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled. Similarly, Jesus' 2nd coming and the church's gathering together (rapture) in Matthew 24:30-31 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) have never been fulfilled, but must occur "immediately after" the future tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

Also, the end of the 2nd temple building (also called Herod's temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring only to the single, 2nd temple building which stood in the center of the Temple Mount and which contained the holy place and the most holy place, but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall, and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming, there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

precepts said in post 16:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Note the "nor ever shall be" part of Matthew 24:21. World War II was worse than 70 AD, even just for the Jews (i.e. the Holocaust). And not even World War II fulfilled the detailed tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which will occur in our future.

precepts said in post 16:

Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mark 13:20 can mean that all flesh on the earth would die if the Lord hadn't already shortened, as in "he hath shortened" (Mark 13:20b), the number of days of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. The Lord could have already determined, from the beginning of Creation (cf. Isaiah 46:10), that he will return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). And the Lord will return "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), immediately after its final event, the worldwide destruction during the 7th vial (Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6). So Mark 13:20 can mean that if the Lord hadn't shortened the number of days of the tribulation, then all flesh on the earth would die during the 7th vial's aftermath, which could be a nuclear-winter scenario (which the Lord will miraculously prevent at his return) brought on by the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire nuking the cities of the nations at the 7th vial (Revelation 17:16-17a, Revelation 16:19).

precepts said in post 16:

. . . the context isn't for a rebuilt temple generation, but for those standing there when the message was given.

While Jesus was originally speaking with the apostles in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, in his mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-5). So the "ye" in Matthew 24 doesn't require that Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the lifetime of the apostles. The "ye" will see "all these things" (Matthew 24:33-34), including the (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30-34). The "ye" must watch (stay awake, spiritually) for the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:42,44).

Similarly, just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has always been relevant to Christians despite the fact that it has never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future, so the highly-detailed and chronological events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18, and the subsequent millennium and other events in Revelation chapters 20 to 22, have always been relevant to Christians despite the fact that they have never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future.

To put it another way, the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), should be relevant to every Christian regardless of whether or not he thinks that he will still be alive to go through it, just as, for example, the past fulfillment of Genesis chapters 1 to 11 should be relevant to every Christian regardless of him not being alive at that time to experience it. For all scripture regarding all times is profitable to all Christians in all times (2 Timothy 3:16).

Also, the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 should be especially relevant to every Christian alive today. For the main reason the Bible gives clear warning ahead of time about everything Christians alive at the time of the tribulation will have to face (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), is so Christians can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and not commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

--

On the other hand, preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all be animated by the same spirit of fear: that the church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these 5 views of preterism, historicism, pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the church alive today that it won't have to physically suffer through that tribulation.

Preterism says that the tribulation happened in 70 AD (or a few years before and including 70 AD). Historicism says that it happened over a long period in history (e.g. during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after). Pre-tribulation rapturism says that Jesus will return and rapture the church into the 3rd heaven before the tribulation begins. Symbolicism says that the tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which those in the church have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), and is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some in the church have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says that the tribulation is only spiritual events which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these 5 views have each tried to build up between the church and the tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These 5 views may have left some in the church unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these 5 views could even contribute to some in the church ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the tribulation, when they become "offended" that God is making them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).

Even though the church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the future tribulation, the church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many in the church will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12), and it won't rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Bible2 · Apr 7, 2015

precepts said in post 16:

. . . the context isn't for a rebuilt temple generation, but for those standing there when the message was given.

Note that Matthew 24:34 refers to the fulfillment of "all these things", all the events of the tribulation, and Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church "immediately after" the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which he would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean the tribulation, 2nd coming, and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' first coming, for none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.

Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34; cf. Matthew 21:19,43, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

This doesn't require that the 2nd coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the 2nd coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the tribulation's first year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021 or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

precepts said in post 16:

. . . in the true spirit of Antichrist, support a nation that's Antichrist to form your theory of nothingness.

The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the literal, fruitless fig tree (Matthew 21:19) foreshadowed his curse on the part of Old Covenant Israel which rejected him (Matthew 21:43), for a fig tree can represent Israel (Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9). The Israel which was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel which Jesus cursed at his first coming. For it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel which was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman-empire army.

But Jesus' kingdom is still called "Israel" (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

--

precepts said in post 27:

The sanctuary is cleansed after 2,300 days . . .

In Daniel 8:14, the original Hebrew words (ereb, H6153; and boqer, H1242) translated as the single word "days", mean "evenings" and "mornings" (cf. Daniel 8:26) in reference to the evening and morning lamb sacrifices of the Mosaic law (Exodus 29:38-42). So the 2,300 "evenings" and "mornings" might actually be only 1,150 days. These days could have been fulfilled in ancient times, in the time of Antiochus IV. And Daniel 8:14b could refer to the cleansing of the temple under Judas Maccabeus.

Bible2 · Apr 7, 2015

Codger said in post 30:

It's just like "The Antichrist." If you actually study the text there is no evidence anywhere that this is one specific person.

Any person is an antichrist who denies that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ (1 John 2:22), or who denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), or who denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The spirit of antichrist which will animate the future Antichrist has been working since the 1st century AD (1 John 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:7a), animating many antichrists since that time (2 John 1:7).

The existence of many antichrists (1 John 2:18) doesn't contradict that there will be an individual man (2 Thessalonians 2:3,4,9, Revelation 13:4-18) who is commonly called the Antichrist, just as on the side of good, the existence of many sons of God (John 1:12) doesn't contradict that there is an individual man (Jesus Christ of Nazareth) who is the Son of God (John 20:31).

Also, the idea of the individual-man Antichrist doesn't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the Antichrist" in order for it to be true and supported by scripture, just as, for example, the idea of the Trinity doesn't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the Trinity" in order for it to be true and supported by scripture (e.g. Matthew 28:19, John 1:1,14, Acts 5:3-4).

The man commonly called the Antichrist will be the fulfillment of the individual "man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) who will sit (at least one time) in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). He will fulfill the individual "man" aspect of the "beast" who will come (Revelation 13:18) and bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9). He will rule the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:5-10, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7), and will have a miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13), who by amazing, Satanic miracles (2 Thessalonians 2:9b), such as calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13), will deceive the world into worshipping a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), and receiving a mark of the Antichrist's name or gematrial name-number (666) on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 13:16-18). The Antichrist and his False Prophet will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20), while at that time Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3). None of these things has happened yet.

The idea of a future, individual-man Antichrist was correctly recognized in the scriptures by the church from early on. Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) used the term: "speaking of Antichrist, [Paul] says, 'who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped'" (Against Heresies 3:6:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4); "...by means of the events which shall occur in the time of Antichrist is it shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God" (Against Heresies 5:25:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:8); "...when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem" (Against Heresies 5:30:4b; Revelation 13:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7); "...the number of the name of the beast ... the name of Antichrist" (Against Heresies 5:30:1; Revelation 13:17c-18).

The gematrial numerical values of the letters in the Antichrist's personal name will add up to six hundred and sixty-six (Revelation 13:17c-18).

--

Codger said in post 17:

Ezekiel, like Daniel, also prophesied the coming of Antiochus Epiphanes in Chapters 38-39.

Note that the Gog/Magog attack on Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39) won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), when there will be no defensive walls or fear of attack in Israel whatsoever (Ezekiel 38:11). At the beginning of the millennium, all present-day weapons of war throughout the world will be destroyed and they won't be allowed to be remade during the millennium (Micah 4:3-4). That is why after the millennium, the Gog/Magog armies will employ only rudimentary, wooden weapons like bows and arrows, spears, shields, and clubs (Ezekiel 39:9), which, after the defeat of the Gog/Magog armies, will be able to be used as convenient firewood by the people living in Israel at that time, instead of them having to go out and collect or cut down firewood from the forest (Ezekiel 39:10).

The Gog in Revelation 20:8 is the same as in Ezekiel chapters 38-39: an individual human whose personal name is "Gog" (Ezekiel 38:3). He will be the chief leader of a future country which will form somewhere north of Israel (Ezekiel 39:2, Ezekiel 38:15), and which will be called "Magog" (Ezekiel 38:2). It will include at least 2 major cities and/or tribes which will be called "Meshech" and "Tubal" (Ezekiel 38:2). This country could come into existence during the millennium. Gog could be born near the end of the millennium, and he will be killed and buried at the end of the Gog/Magog event (Ezekiel 39:11).

Both accounts of the event show that the Gog/Magog armies will ultimately be completely defeated by miraculous fire from heaven (Ezekiel 38:22, Revelation 20:9). While the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur subsequent to the Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-15), nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the great white throne judgment has to happen immediately after that event. For there will be at least 7 years (Ezekiel 39:9b) between the end of that event and the great white throne judgment.

Also, the Gog/Magog attack won't have to (as is sometimes claimed) involve only the nations listed in Ezekiel chapters 38-39. Those nations could be just a sampling. For the "nations" (ethnos), or peoples, who will be involved in the Gog/Magog attack will come from all over the earth (Revelation 20:8). They will still be physically part of Jesus' worldwide kingdom, still legally under his rule, just as they had been during the preceding millennium (Psalms 72:8-11, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2). But after the millennium, they will be deceived by Satan into committing the attack (Revelation 20:7-10).

Also, while the Gog/Magog attack on Israel won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Israel could suffer a different attack before the millennium, at the start of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which attack could result in Israel's total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17).

And Jerusalem could be attacked and totally defeated in the future at least 3 times before the millennium: once near the start of the future tribulation (Daniel 11:22), then again mid-tribulation (Daniel 11:31), and then at the tribulation's end (Daniel 11:45), right before Jesus' 2nd coming and the start of the millennium (Zechariah 14:2-21).

Bible2 · Apr 7, 2015

Straightshot said in post 26:

.... and a believing remnant of Israel will flee for the Lord's protection during the period [Zechariah 14:5-6; Matthew 24:15-16; Revelation 12:6; 12:14]

Zechariah 14:5a isn't referring to the fleeing of people in the church into the mountains, the wilderness (as in Matthew 24:15-16 and Revelation 12:6,14), at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. Instead, Zechariah 14:5a is referring to only a post-tribulation, 2nd-coming fleeing of surviving unsaved elect Jews in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:2-5), who will become believers and get saved when they see the returned Jesus in person (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:25-32).

They could have survived the Antichrist's preceding reign because they were either in hiding or under the protection of the 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3,5).

precepts · Apr 7, 2015

Codger said:
Your historic account has nothing to do with the scriptural facts. The Maccabee were the result of the forsaking of the covenant, a foundational fact! Foundational fact #2: The abomination last until the consummation (Dan 9:27). Foundational fact #3: The sanctuary is cleansed after 2,300 days, not after 3 1/2 yrs as the Maccabees claim (Dan 8:13-14), and if it last until the consummation, it cant be 2.300 days, but years. Foundational facts you can't logically deny. {/quote]

Now you have become a historical revisionist. You know everything more accurately than all of the eyewitnesses of history - Like Josephus.

Click to expand...

This is a game you people play to avoid the facts. The Pharisees and Sadducess sects came about because of the forsaking of the covenant. That has nothing to do with history. And if Josephus adopted the name of the scriptural 8th Roman emperor, the Beast, your reaction to the fact is stunning. It only shows your disregard for the facts.

Wikipedia's quote:

Josesphus

He initially fought against the Romans during the First Jewish–Roman War as head of Jewish forces in Galilee, until surrendering in 67 to Roman forces led by Vespasian after the six-week siege of Jotapata. Josephus claimed the Jewish Messianic prophecies that initiated the First Roman-Jewish War made reference to Vespasian becoming Emperor of Rome. In response Vespasian decided to keep Josephus as a slave and interpreter. After Vespasian became Emperor in 69, he granted Josephus his freedom, at which time Josephus assumed the emperor's family name of Flavius.

Flavius Josephus fully defected to the Roman side and was granted Roman citizenship. He became an advisor and friend of Vespasian's son Titus, serving as his translator when Titus led the Siege of Jerusalem, which resulted—when the Jewish revolt did not surrender—in the city's destruction and the looting and destruction of Herod's Temple (Second Temple).

Josephus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Click to expand...

Codger said:

I'm not sure that I've seen anyone distort the truth more than in your posts here.

Click to expand...

To bear false witness is a sin.

Provide the proof for your accusations.

Codger said:

Well this is typical Futurist nonsense again. A total denial of history, common sense, and logic. All futurists do is tell a fantastic story with all of their disconnected and fantasy beliefs with only out of context "cherry picked proof texts" as their authority. I've seen it a million times and there is no cure for this that I have found..

Click to expand...

You're all talk and no show, which is so ironic. I told you the fact the Pharisees and Sadducees were the result of forsaking the covenant, and you say I'm distorting history. How logical is that?

Codger said:

You have no facts at all only badly connected "Proof texts" that are completely taken out of the context of the books from which they are drawn.

Click to expand...

Like I said before, you are so ironic. Prove it.

Codger said:

One thing that Futurists cannot ever do and I have yet to see them do it even once. You cannot take the text from Daniel and go through it word for word and lline for line like I did and give an in context interpretation. You cannot do it and would rather cling to your fantasies. instead of doing the work of actually studying the book as it was written to the intended audience.

Click to expand...

I have provided so much information, and you only elaborated on the Maccabees. What line for line have you provided?

Your irony is blinding.

Codger said:

It's just like "The Antichrist." If you actually study the text there is no evidence anywhere that this is one specific person. There is no support for the idea that he will not appear after the 20th century. And there is no support that this Antichristos is outside of the Church. Soon they run amok and now this Antichrist is the same as "the man of Sin" or "the son of perdition". Not to mention the "beast." They are always linking similar phrases entities, and words together when therewere none.

Click to expand...

I see no logic in your statement. To respond would be a waste of my time and effort seeing your understanding is limited.

Codger said:

Lets see you go through the text of Daniel word for word and see if your doctrines hold up.

Click to expand...

I already did, and you have yet to point out any errors. All you do is make vague insinuations.

You've been tried and tested.

precepts · Apr 7, 2015

Bible2 said:
Note that just as the highly detailed tribulation events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 find no historical fulfillment, so the tribulation events of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 find no historical fulfillment.

That is pure nonsense. Rev 6-8 has no bearing on Mat 24, Mk 13, and on Lk 21. The NT verses' context is the temple destruction, 70ad. Rev 6-8 happens in heaven, in the heavenly Shalem and heavenly temple. Context is King!

Bible2 said:
For example, Luke 21:24 refers to the same future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), the details of which time period are shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled. Similarly, Jesus' 2nd coming and the church's gathering together (rapture) in Matthew 24:30-31 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) have never been fulfilled, but must occur "immediately after" the future tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

Here's your, and all who think like you, stumbling block. What was prophesied in OT about Israel's return and never being up rooted was meant for the heavenly kingdom. That is why you have to reinvent the temple destruction and misinterprets Revelation's temple defilement with a 3rd temple destruction and defilement. The OT prophecies were parables that you have yet to grasp.

Bible2 said:
Also, the end of the 2nd temple building (also called Herod's temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring only to the single, 2nd temple building which stood in the center of the Temple Mount and which contained the holy place and the most holy place, but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall, and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

That's a newly invented excuse to counter the fact Mat 24, Mk 13, and Lk 21 context is 70 ad. You're distorting the facts on mole hill technicalities.

Bible2 said:
Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

That's a bold face lie. They were talking about the temple stones!

Bible2 said:
At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming, there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

Nothing you say makes sense because you don't have any proof, just insinuations.

Bible2 said:
Note the "nor ever shall be" part of Matthew 24:21. World War II was worse than 70 AD, even just for the Jews (i.e. the Holocaust). And not even World War II fulfilled the detailed tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which will occur in our future.

The context is in relation to the nation of Israel.

Bible2 said:
Mark 13:20 can mean that all flesh on the earth would die if the Lord hadn't already shortened, as in "he hath shortened" (Mark 13:20b), the number of days of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. The Lord could have already determined, from the beginning of Creation (cf. Isaiah 46:10), that he will return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). And the Lord will return "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), immediately after its final event, the worldwide destruction during the 7th vial (Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6). So Mark 13:20 can mean that if the Lord hadn't shortened the number of days of the tribulation, then all flesh on the earth would die during the 7th vial's aftermath, which could be a nuclear-winter scenario (which the Lord will miraculously prevent at his return) brought on by the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire nuking the cities of the nations at the 7th vial (Revelation 17:16-17a, Revelation 16:19).

Reading scripture in context, the tribulation happens after the temple destruction, in 96 - 98ad during the reign of the scriptural 11th Roman emperor Nerva. The days are shortened because he dies in two yrs following his decree of Flavian worship, the scriptural 8th Roman emperor Titus Flavius Vespasian.

Here's an interesting fact about Josephus and the scriptural 8th Roman emperor:
Titus Flavius Josephus (/dʒoʊˈsiːfəs/;[1] 37 c. 100),[2] born Joseph ben Matityahu (Hebrew: יוסף בן מתתיהו, Yosef ben Matityahu),[3] was a first-century Romano-Jewish scholar, historian and hagiographer, who was born in Jerusalemthen part of Roman Judeato a father of priestly descent and a mother who claimed royal ancestry.

Wikipedia's quote:

Josesphus

He initially fought against the Romans during the First JewishRoman War as head of Jewish forces in Galilee, until surrendering in 67 to Roman forces led by Vespasian after the six-week siege of Jotapata. Josephus claimed the Jewish Messianic prophecies that initiated the First Roman-Jewish War made reference to Vespasian becoming Emperor of Rome. In response Vespasian decided to keep Josephus as a slave and interpreter. After Vespasian became Emperor in 69, he granted Josephus his freedom, at which time Josephus assumed the emperor's family name of Flavius.

Flavius Josephus fully defected to the Roman side and was granted Roman citizenship. He became an advisor and friend of Vespasian's son Titus, serving as his translator when Titus led the Siege of Jerusalem, which resultedwhen the Jewish revolt did not surrenderin the city's destruction and the looting and destruction of Herod's Temple (Second Temple).

Josephus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bible2 said:
While Jesus was originally speaking with the apostles in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, in his mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-5). So the "ye" in Matthew 24 doesn't require that Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the lifetime of the apostles. The "ye" will see "all these things" (Matthew 24:33-34), including the (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30-34). The "ye" must watch (stay awake, spiritually) for the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:42,44).

You're mixing apples with oranges. Tell the apostles to watch is different from telling them about the temple's desolation, constantly making excuses for your misgivings.

Bible2 said:
Similarly, just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has always been relevant to Christians despite the fact that it has never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future, so the highly-detailed and chronological events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18, and the subsequent millennium and other events in Revelation chapters 20 to 22, have always been relevant to Christians despite the fact that they have never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future.

You have no idea of the context of Rev 19:7 to 20;3. Your faith is based on guesses. Mine's not

Bible2 said:
To put it another way, the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), should be relevant to every Christian regardless of whether or not he thinks that he will still be alive to go through it, just as, for example, the past fulfillment of Genesis chapters 1 to 11 should be relevant to every Christian regardless of him not being alive at that time to experience it. For all scripture regarding all times is profitable to all Christians in all times (2 Timothy 3:16).

Also, the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 should be especially relevant to every Christian alive today. For the main reason the Bible gives clear warning ahead of time about everything Christians alive at the time of the tribulation will have to face (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), is so Christians can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and not commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

--

On the other hand, preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all be animated by the same spirit of fear: that the church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these 5 views of preterism, historicism, pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the church alive today that it won't have to physically suffer through that tribulation.

Preterism says that the tribulation happened in 70 AD (or a few years before and including 70 AD). Historicism says that it happened over a long period in history (e.g. during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after). Pre-tribulation rapturism says that Jesus will return and rapture the church into the 3rd heaven before the tribulation begins. Symbolicism says that the tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which those in the church have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), and is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some in the church have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says that the tribulation is only spiritual events which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these 5 views have each tried to build up between the church and the tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These 5 views may have left some in the church unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these 5 views could even contribute to some in the church ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the tribulation, when they become "offended" that God is making them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).

Even though the church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the future tribulation, the church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many in the church will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12), and it won't rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Blah, blah, blah .............

You're full of nothingness, fictitious tales. :priest:

precepts · Apr 7, 2015

Bible2 said:
Note that Matthew 24:34 refers to the fulfillment of "all these things", all the events of the tribulation, and Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church "immediately after" the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which he would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean the tribulation, 2nd coming, and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' first coming, for none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.

Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34; cf. Matthew 21:19,43, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

This doesn't require that the 2nd coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the 2nd coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the tribulation's first year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021 or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Excuses.
Excuses are tools of incompetence.
And those who specialize in it's uses are seldom capable of anything else.
Excuses.

Bible2 said:
The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the literal, fruitless fig tree (Matthew 21:19) foreshadowed his curse on the part of Old Covenant Israel which rejected him (Matthew 21:43), for a fig tree can represent Israel (Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9). The Israel which was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel which Jesus cursed at his first coming. For it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel which was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman-empire army.

There is no longer Jew nor Gentile. The spirit of the Antichrist doesn't confess Christ came in the flesh. You are supporting an Antichrist doctrine.

Bible2 said:
But Jesus' kingdom is still called "Israel" (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

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In Daniel 8:14, the original Hebrew words (ereb, H6153; and boqer, H1242) translated as the single word "days", mean "evenings" and "mornings" (cf. Daniel 8:26) in reference to the evening and morning lamb sacrifices of the Mosaic law (Exodus 29:38-42). So the 2,300 "evenings" and "mornings" might actually be only 1,150 days. These days could have been fulfilled in ancient times, in the time of Antiochus IV. And Daniel 8:14b could refer to the cleansing of the temple under Judas Maccabeus.

Excuses.
Excuses are tools of incompetence.
And those who specialize in it's uses are seldom capable of anything else.
Excuses.
:preach:

Bible2 · Apr 8, 2015

precepts said in post 37:

Rev 6-8 happens in heaven . . .

Regarding the 1st seal's horseman, on the white horse (Revelation 6:1-2), that could represent the gospel of Jesus (not Jesus physically: Acts 3:21) going forth to all nations on the earth and victoriously saving souls. For Jesus is the rider on the white horse seen later in Revelation 19:11,13 (cf. John 1:1,14), and his gospel will be preached to all nations on the earth during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:14, Revelation 14:6). The bow (Revelation 6:2) is a weapon that is able to affect things far away, just as the gospel is able to affect things far away from where it began (Luke 24:47).

The last 3 of the 4 horsemen (Revelation 6:4-8) represent a horrible future war on the earth which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the people on the earth (Revelation 6:8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons.

So the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which Jesus will return immediately after (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), hasn't started yet. After the war, there will be a terrible series of natural disasters on the earth historically unprecedented in their magnitude, such as a gigantic volcanic eruption (Revelation 6:12-14), possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera, and then the collapse into the ocean of another erupting volcano (Revelation 8:8-9), possibly one of the Canary Islands, the collapse of which could set up a huge tsunami which could destroy the eastern seaboard of the U.S.

If such a tsunami occurs, it could cause a string of awful, Fukushima-type, nuclear-meltdown radiation disasters in the nuclear power plants and their nuclear-waste storage facilities all along the eastern seaboard of the U.S. Also, if the tsunami breaks open the germ-containment structures on Plum Island, just off the coast of Connecticut, especially deadly viruses and bacteria could be washed inland and spread across the U.S. and Canada as they infect animals and people.

After the volcanic activity and possible tsunami, a comet will strike the earth (Revelation 8:10-11), possibly in the U.S. and Canadian Great Lakes region. As the comet falls from the sky, it will look like a great star, or like a burning lamp in the sky (Revelation 8:10). It will strike a region of the earth which contains 1/3 of the world's fresh surface water (Revelation 8:10b), and it will contain some poisonous element which will poison that water so that many who drink from it will die (Revelation 8:11b).

Bible2 · Apr 8, 2015

precepts said in post 37:

What was prophesied in OT about Israel's return and never being up rooted was meant for the heavenly kingdom.

Some people believe Amos 9:15 applies to the reestablishment of Israel in 1948 AD. But Amos 9:15 could refer to what will happen on the earth only at Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming (Isaiah 9:7, Amos 9:11). For Amos 9:14-15 was spoken before the taking of the northern kingdom of Israel into captivity (Amos 8:14, Amos 5:27) by the Assyrians in 722 BC. And so Amos 9:14-15 was spoken before the southern kingdom of Judah was taken into captivity by the Babylonians in 586 BC. But Amos 9:14-15 didn't apply to the post-Babylonian-Captivity restoration of the Jews to their land in 538 BC, for that restoration was subsequently destroyed by a Roman-empire army in 70 AD. So Amos 9:14-15 doesn't necessarily apply to the subsequent restoration of the Jews to their land in 1948 AD either. This restoration could be destroyed by the Baathists in a future war (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), at the start of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. Jesus will restore the Davidic kingdom of Israel on the earth (Luke 1:32b-33, Isaiah 9:7, Amos 9:11) at his 2nd coming (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21), which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

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precepts said in post 38:

There is no longer Jew nor Gentile.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28).

Note that in Galatians 3:28, Paul can't possibly mean that there are no believers who are Jews or Gentiles in any sense, because elsewhere he shows, for example, that believers remain either genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b). Similarly, Galatians 3:28 doesn't mean that there are no believers who are males or females in any sense, for clearly we are still males or females with regard to our genitals, and with regard to other matters (1 Timothy 2:11-12; 1 Corinthians 14:34-37; 1 Corinthians 11:4-16; 1 Peter 3:7a).

So Galatians 3:28 can only mean that there is no distinction between believing Jews and Gentiles, or between believing males and females, with regard to them being "one in Christ" (Galatians 3:28b), in the sense of them being one body in Christ (Ephesians 4:4-6), without distinction with regard to their salvation (Romans 10:12; 1 Corinthians 12:13; 1 Peter 3:7b).

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