Daniel 2, reconsidered

gospelfer

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Much of prophecy is disjointed in its presentation, and rather non-linnear. This makes those parts of prophecy that present a linear story all the more important. These passages are tests of their expositors: is our exposition a full reflection of what the prophecy describes? In my experience they are not. The expositor is too busy fitting elements of the passage to his already-existing framework to first stop and really pull out everything the passage describes. Daniel 2 is perfect example of this. It is the simplest of the few linear prophetic passages, but I have yet to see an exposition that examines it with total honesty. This is a serious failure.


The whole dream is of a single “man”, and verses 31-35 present a quick description: a golden head, silver chest, bronze waist and thighs, iron legs, and feet of iron mixed with clay. Finally, verses 34-35 describe the advent of a sixth kingdom, for a stone “cut by no human hands” (heavenly) smashes the entire man, and this stone becomes a “great mountain” (kingdom) filling the world. Verse 44 informs that the mountain is an eternal kingdom.
Together, these assertions cause us to recognize in Nebuchadnezzar's vision a retelling of the second and third parts of Moses' threefold history (Deuteronomy 28-30, 4), namely Israel's curse (of subjection) and final reconciliation to God. Daniel, however, has provided more information than Moses, for he breaks the curse into a sequence of five powers, of which Babylon is the first. We may wonder why Daniel's vision has omitted the first part of Moses' threefold history (the blessing); the reason is simple: the blessing has passed, and Babylon's conquest of Judah marks the beginning of the curse.


Daniel's actual interpretation begins in verses 36-40 with a quick reiteration of the first four powers, and these verses explicitly state these powers to be a sequence in which each is replaced by the subsequent one. This constraint is significant because it prevents the interpreter from escaping into the happy vagueness of arbitrarily assigning nations as convenience (or inclination) dictates.


If the nations are a sequence, it remains to discover in what sense each succeeds another. The only workable answer is found in their possession of Jerusalem (and the land); this assertion stands on two grounds: first, Daniel is describing the curse (and its end), and in embodying the curse as a whole man he is emphasizing that they are notional unity from the perspective of the prophetic story. Thus, although the iron legs will arrive (as a power) long after Babylon has fallen, it is still a part of a unity, and this unity is Israel's curse – its subjection, national destruction, and long dispossession of the land of Israel.


The second argument is that without the connecting thread of Jerusalem's conquest to constrain the meaning of the sequence, it is not predictive of anything – it is not prophetic at all. A simple example may illustrate: to say that five strangers shall knock on my door before midnight is prophetic. But to say five strangers shall knock on doors is not; there are many strangers in the world and there are many doors, and when we remove the prediction's constraints it ceases to be predictive in any meaningful sense. Obviously, the Messianic kingdom must arrive sometime after Babylon, and obviously it must supplant whatever came before it. If this is all the prophecy indicates, the middle three kingdoms become functionally meaningless. But they cannot be meaningless – not if prophecy originates in God; therefore we must take the implied constraint seriously, and the only constraint provided by prophecy is conquest of the land.


Verse 40 provides a critical piece of information: the statue's metals are used for their strength, not their cost, for it says that the fourth power will be “strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things”. Thus, in the movement from gold to silver to bronze to iron we should look for an increase in the power's duration. Babylon was a great empire that grew by smashing its rivals, but it is nevertheless depicted as gold – it was soft. And this was true, for its greatness was brief, a mere seventy years. In short, Babylon was not a lasting power.


Verses 41-43 contain a description of the fifth power, the feet of mixed iron and clay. Here, Daniel is actually presenting two attributes. First, the iron indicates that it is lasting and resilient, on a similar scale of time as the fourth power (the iron legs). The second attribute is its clay; that is, it has difficulty in cohering, in keeping its political center. Verse 43 makes this quite explicit: the iron of the feet will mix and marry, but they will not hold together. Its iron components, however, still remain.


We now possess a simple and somewhat cartoonish picture of the curse, but which also contains suggestive details: five powers (starting with Babylon), the first four of increasing duration, with the fifth of similar duration to the fourth, but lacking its coherence. Additionally, these are to be successive possessors of Jerusalem over the time of the curse. Having this information, a historical solution can be attempted: the sequence of powers is Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, Islam. These five neatly fulfill all the requirements of the prophecy. First, they are the five great powers to possess Jerusalem for any significant time over the last 2600 years (the curse). Second, up through the Roman power, each power holds Jerusalem for a longer time than the preceding, matching the increasing hardness of the statue's metals. Note that the legs' iron presents an accurate description of Rome's unmatched military competence. Thirdly, while Islam has had a long duration, its possession of Jerusalem was, in fact, a succession of six different Islamic powers: the Rashidun Caliphate, the Umayyad Caliphate, the Abbasid Caliphate, the Fatimid Caliphate, the Mamaluke Sultanate, and the Ottomans. While each of these were distinct Muslim powers (ruling Jerusalem from different capitals), they also claimed (or possessed de facto) headship of the Muslim caliphate (the Muslim polity). In fact, Islam's history as a succession of 6 powers to control Jerusalem, ending with the apparent total collapse of Islamic power at the end of the Ottoman empire, is so suggestive that the prophetic exposition of the rest of Daniel and Revelation practically writes itself.



Thus, these successive Muslim powers have absorbed new peoples, changed capitals, and fought amongst themselves, and despite this nothing has altered Islam's essential tendency to persist and grow – even as it fractures and then reassembles into a new political unity. Even now in its currently divided state, the longing for a new political unity can be heard in the utterances of its devout; and even as they long for the wholeness of the ummah, they prepare to subvert and attack each other to make their own capital its head. In Islam's tendency to fracture and reform without losing its basic vitality is the fulfillment of the fifth power's clay. It is a persistent but fractious and malleable unity: it is iron and clay.


Additionally, this assignment of the final human kingdom to Islam, finds powerful support in Daniel 7 and 11. Daniel 11:36-39 describes it as an essentially religious power, asserting 5 characteristics that identify it as Islam:


  1. It is a new religion, having supplanted traditional tribal polytheistic beliefs.
  2. It claims sole legitimacy of religion. This is an important prediction because Daniel recorded it at a time when the entire world (except Israel) was polytheistic or pantheistic.
  3. It is a religion whose God commands war – another astonishing prediction. Many ancient religions had a god of war (just as they had a god of peace, love, harvest, and storms, etc), but war as a primary religious principle is quite singular, and not to be found in any of the other empires holding Jerusalem. In fact, of all major religions this is true of Islam alone.
  4. It follows no other gods; this boils down to an assertion of monotheism. Probably the most astonishing prediction, for at the time of the prophecy, Judaism was the only monotheistic religion.
  5. It shall rule over “many” and shall conquer the “strongest fortresses”. Together these statements tell us it shall rule many nations or peoples – though this was already implied in its early conquests and verse 36's assertion of general success. The statement that it shall honor those who “acknowledge him” hints that it will be more than one nation; that is, its religious influence may grow beyond its “native” region.
Also, Daniel 11's description of the final power's early history agrees with an assignment to Islam. It starts with a commoner of a small people and grows swiftly. Also, Daniel paints it as being hostile to God, his ideas, and his followers. In fact this power "wears out" belief. All true of Islam.

Finally, in verses 44-45 Daniel states that after this last power (Islam), God will establish an unconquerable kingdom which shall overcome everything around it.


Daniel chapter 2 is a vision of clean lines and bright colors. It has both simplicity and breadth, and fits neatly into Moses' threefold prophetic scheme. Additionally, Daniel's vision has sufficient detail to make a preliminary match against actual recorded history, and the historical picture fits the prophetic one – improbably well.


There is no doubt that this exposition discombobulates much current thought on prophecy. However, this is good, because this is actually a more rational and detailed reading of 2, getting rid of another "gap" interpretation (a gap which is not found in his description -- there is no air between the iron legs and feet), and it actually pays attention to the character of the feet. And aside from being more rational in itself, it causes the rest of Daniel and Revelation to become more rational -- and to fit history with a ludicrous level of accuracy.


This entire content this exposition of Daniel 2 paraphrases the book "Primary Prophecy".
 

5thKingdom

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Much of prophecy is disjointed in its presentation, and rather non-linnear. This makes those parts of prophecy that present a linear story all the more important. These passages are tests of their expositors: is our exposition a full reflection of what the prophecy describes? In my experience they are not. The expositor is too busy fitting elements of the passage to his already-existing framework to first stop and really pull out everything the passage describes. Daniel 2 is perfect example of this. It is the simplest of the few linear prophetic passages, but I have yet to see an exposition that examines it with total honesty. This is a serious failure.




Daniel 2 shows the same "mystery" as Daniel 7... with one additional item.


In Daniel 7 we see Four Kingdoms representing:
(1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom (Lion)
(2nd) Old Testament Kingdom (Bear)
(3rd) New Testament Kingdom (Leopard)
(4th) Great Tribulatioin Kingdom (Dreadful Beast)


In Daniel 2 we see these same Four Kingdoms - with one difference:
In Daniel 2 we see the (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom from TWO STANDPOINTS.

We see it from the PRE-FALL perspective (Head of fine gold) - the Rule of God
And we see it from the POST-FALL perspective (inferior silver) - the Rule of Man/Satan

-----
Essentially we see the Rule of the Kingdom before the Fall of Adam - and after.
The EFFECT of Adam's Rebellion was demonstrated by the CHANGE in the God of the 1st Kingdom,
This CHANGE was also demonstrated by Adam and Eve being cast out of the Garden of Eden.
---------

We see the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom as Belly of Brass
And we see the (3rd) Christian Kingdom as Legs of Iron
Finally, we see the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom as feet of "iron" and "clay".

The mixed iron and clay represents the mixed "Wise Virgins" and "Foolish Virgins"
(the "wheat" and "tares") which are the LAST PEOPLE on earth. These PEOPLE
are called "kings" who are going into the (5th) Eternal Kingdom of God. (Dan 2:44)



BTW... this same Bible Truth is shown in Daniel 8
The Ram represents the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom - which no other "beast" (Kingdom) could stand.

The He-Goat represents the (3rd) Christian Kingdom - with the a "notable horn" between his eyes representing the Lord Jesus and the four "notable ones" representing the four "heads" of
Daniel's (3rd) Christian Kingdom... and four of the seven "heads" of the Revelations Beast.

Harmony of Scripture.

.
 
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gospelfer

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5th kingdom, I'm not really interested in the spiritual interpretation of Daniel or Revelation -- at least not at this point. Right now it seems like the business at hand is to harmonize it against itself and history. The angel assigns the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd kingdoms to Babylon, Persian, and Greece, and I think we need to fill out the rest of the historical picture before we go on to the spiritual. Your post utterly fails to address any of the new and interesting historical assertions of my post. I understand that you are enthusiastic about your spiritual vision of the 5 kingdoms (and I applaud -- its wonderful), but this post really is about the "merely" historical. Please don't hijack -- thanks.
 
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Douggg

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gospelfer, I admit to not reading through your opening post, but scanning it appears as though you are of the view that Islam is going to play the center arch villian of the great tribulation period?

If so, that is a big mistake because Islam essentially gets destroyed right before the 7 years begin in Ezekiel 39. The 7 years coincide with the burning of the war implements in the aftermath of Gog/Magog - which there is a gap between the end of verse 16 and the Armageddon feast beginning in verse 17, for the 7 years.

15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.
16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.

[the 7 years lie here between the lines]

17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
 
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gospelfer

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gospeler, I admit not to reading through your opening post, but scanning it appears as though you are of the view that Islam is going to play the center arch villian of the great tribulation period?

If so, that is a big mistake because Islam essentially gets destroyed right before the 7 years begin in Ezekiel 39. The 7 years coincide with the burning of the war implements in the aftermath of Gog/Magog - which there is a gap between the end of verse 16 and the Armageddon feast beginning in verse 17, for the 7 years.

15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.
16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.

[the 7 years lie here between the lines]

17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.


Hmmm. I'm not sure that anything I asserted necessarily contradicts your position. But, in any case, that is not the point of my post. The purpose of my post is to consider Dan 2 closely, rationally, and see how it fits against history and prophecy's other linear statements of history.
 
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Douggg

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Hmmm. I'm not sure that anything I asserted necessarily contradicts your position. But, in any case, that is not the point of my post. The purpose of my post is to consider Dan 2 closely, rationally, and see how it fits against history and prophecy's other linear statements of history.

Did you not write this - "Additionally, this assignment of the final human kingdom to Islam, finds powerful support in Daniel 7 and 11. Daniel 11:36-39 describes it as an essentially religious power, asserting 5 characteristics that identify it as Islam:"

Islam is not going to be the final human kingdom. It is not anywhere in the Daniel 2 statue. You might as well be living 30 years ago and saying Communism is the final human kingdom.

The last human kingdom will be the fourth kingdom, end times version, which has the ten toes. The EU with the EU commission as the ten kings and the little horn as the leader over them.
 
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5thKingdom

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5th kingdom, I'm not really interested in the spiritual interpretation of Daniel or Revelation -- at least not at this point.



Sir.... Biblical prophecies represent historical EVENTS.
Something must happen (some event must happen) to real live PEOPLE
BEFORE any prophecy can be fulfilled.


Therefore... You cannot possibly understand WHAT prophecies represent
without understanding what historical EVENT they represent...


... and these historical EVENTS represent the EXPERIENCES of the
real PEOPLE (the "wheat" and the "tares") alive during that time.


-------------------


Prophecies about the Old Testament were FULFILLED by the EXPERIENCES
of the PEOPLE living in the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom.


Prophecies about the NEW Testament are FULFILLED by the EXPERIENCES
of the PEOPLE living in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom (the "Church Age")


And Prophecies about the Great Tribulation are FULFILLED by the EXPERIENCES
of the PEOPLE living in Daniel's 4th Beast (also the 7-Headed Revelations Beast).



---------------------


Bottom Line:

The EXPERIENCES of the PEOPLE living in Daniel's 4th Beast/Revelations Beast
FULFILL Bible prophecies about the Great Tribulation.


If you don't understand the EXPERIENCES of the "Ten Virgins"
you cannot possibly understand any of the EVENTS of the Great Tribulation...
or the FULFILLMENT of prophecies about the Revelations Beast.


You must START with:
Daniel's 4th Beast = Revelations Beast = Great Tribulation Kingdom.

.


.
 
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Interplanner

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To the OPer,
sorry but there seems to be an even more fundamental flaw. The 4th kingdom has the weakness of clay and iron, but the 5th kingdom comes without human hands and is the kingdom of God. It has a way of "breaking" all the previous.

vs 41-43 are describing the 4th power not the 5th!

I don't know where your anchor feature about Jerusalem comes from, but it is not in the text. In 9, the answer to the prayer about Jerusalem/Israel is that Messiah comes redemptively but the city is destroyed a bit after that. That's history.
 
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gospelfer

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5th Kingdom, I appreciate your efforts, but I want to keep this historical. In Daniel 2 we start out with a historical kingdom, Babylon. That is where I want to start. I'm not interested in an interpretation which starts out by asserting that the 4 remaining kingdoms are anything other than historical kingdoms. I realize there may be another level of interpretation in which they legitimately represent a "Jewish Kingdom" or "Christian Kingdom", but on a historical level we are told where to start: Babylon. For now I am assuming that the four unspecified kingdoms are actually historical powers analogous to Babylon, and that these 5 form a back-on-back sequence -- which scripture seems to suggest. My hope is to be able do discover this sequence in history, using Daniel 2 only at this point. After all, there is actually a fair amount of detail here in Daniel 2. If you want to help in this experiment, please do. But for now, can we please restrict this to just Daniel 2 and actual history?
 
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gospelfer

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To the OPer,
sorry but there seems to be an even more fundamental flaw. The 4th kingdom has the weakness of clay and iron, but the 5th kingdom comes without human hands and is the kingdom of God. It has a way of "breaking" all the previous.

vs 41-43 are describing the 4th power not the 5th!

Here is the Daniel 2 sequence:
1. Golden head = Babylon
2. Silver Chest = ???
3. Bronze Waist = ???
4. Iron Legs = ???
5. Feet of Iron and Clay = ???
6. Heavenly rock smashes entire "man".

Not sure how you arrive at the 4th kingdom having the weakness of clay. The feet of iron and clay are the 5th kingdom Daniel describes:


37 You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory, 38 and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the children of man, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the heavens, making you rule over them all—

Daniel 2:37-45

1. "you [speaking to Nebuchadnezzar] are the head of gold.

2. Another kingdom inferior to you shall arise after you, and

3. yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.

4. And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things. And like iron that crushes, it shall break and crush all these.

5. And as you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom, but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the soft clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay.

6. And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.”
 
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5thKingdom

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5th Kingdom, I appreciate your efforts, but I want to keep this historical. In Daniel 2 we start out with a historical kingdom, Babylon. That is where I want to start. I'm not interested in an interpretation which starts out by asserting that the 4 remaining kingdoms are anything other than historical kingdoms. I realize there may be another level of interpretation in which they legitimately represent a "Jewish Kingdom" or "Christian Kingdom", but on a historical level we are told where to start: Babylon. For now I am assuming that the four unspecified kingdoms are actually historical powers analogous to Babylon, and that these 5 form a back-on-back sequence -- which scripture seems to suggest. My hope is to be able do discover this sequence in history, using Daniel 2 only at this point. After all, there is actually a fair amount of detail here in Daniel 2. If you want to help in this experiment, please do. But for now, can we please restrict this to just Daniel 2 and actual history?




According to Daniel 2 and actual history:


The (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom is shown as the "head of gold" before
the Fall of Adam.


However, after Adam's Fall, the (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom was NOT Ruled
by the "head of gold"... but by an inferior "king" that was a man.


The (2nd) Old Testament / Jewish Kingdom is shown as the belly of brass.


The (3rd) New Testament / Christian Kingdom is shown as Legs of Iron....
indicating the STRENGTH of the Great Commission as it spreads across the world.


The (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom is shown as feet (ten toes) or iron and clay.
The iron represents the "wheat" (the Wise Virgins) and the clay represents
the "tares" (Foolish Virgins).


These 10 Toes of iron/clay are called "kings" in Daniel 2:44
And they are the PEOPLE on earth when the (5th) Eternal Kingdom begins.



Again.... these "Ten Toes" or "Ten Virgins" or "Ten Kings" or "Ten Horns"
all represent the SAME PEOPLE.... the people living in the (4th) Great Tribulation...
immediately BEFORE the (5th) Eternal Kingdom.


--------


We START with Babylon because (after the Fall of Adam) Satan was RULER
of all earthly kingdoms (which is WHY Satan had to be "bound" during the Great Commission).

However... we KNOW ABSOLUTELY that these Kingdoms are NOT physical because of Daniel 7:11-12.

There is NO WAY the Kingdom of Babylon still exists on earth AFTER the Kingdom of Rome is destroyed....
and that is EXACTLY what the Bible REQUIRES in Daniel 7:11-12 (talking about the SAME kingdoms/people)

You cannot find Biblical Truth without harmony of Scriptures... ALL RELATED SCRIPTURES.


.




.
 
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gospelfer

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According to Daniel 2 and actual history:


The (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom is shown as the "head of gold" before
the Fall of Adam.

.


What you say may be true; the first kingdom may be the antedeluvian world, but when speaking to Nebuchadnezzar Daniel says:

"You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory, 38 and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the children of man, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the heavens, making you rule over them all—you are the head of gold. "

I want to pretend this means the golden head is the historical Babylon, and see where this leads us. I'd very much appreciate it if you played along with this conceit. Thanks!
 
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5thKingdom

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Here is the Daniel 2 sequence:
1. Golden head = Babylon
2. Silver Chest = ???
3. Bronze Waist = ???
4. Iron Legs = ???
5. Feet of Iron and Clay = ???
6. Heavenly rock smashes entire "man".

Not sure how you arrive at the 4th kingdom having the weakness of clay. The feet of iron and clay are the 5th kingdom Daniel describes:”


There are ONLY four (4) Kingdoms shown above before the (5th) Eternal Kingdom.

In Daniel 2 we see the (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom from the perspective

of BOTH the Kingdom BEFORE the fall of Adam (head of gold) and AFTER

the fall of man (the inferior kingdom of silver).


---------


The KEY here is harmony....

The "Ten Toes" of iron and clay are called "kings" in verse 44....

These PEOPLE are the SAME PEOPLE as the "Ten Virgins" and the "Ten Horns"

they are the LAST PEOPLE on earth before the (5th) Eternal Kingdom of God.

--------------

When we harmonize these "Ten Toes" and "Ten Kings" in Daniel 2 (the Last People)

with the "Ten Virgins" of Matthew 25 (again the Last People) and the "Ten Kings"

of Revelations 17 (again the Last People).... then we can KNOW these are the

PEOPLE living in Daniel's (4th) Great Tribulation Beast.


.


.
 
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5thKingdom

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5thKingdom you are highjacking the thread.



Sir... maybe you could explain the rules to me.

Am I "highjacking the thread" whenever I disagree with an interpretation?

The thread is about the meaning of the image in Daniel 2... I am talking about

the meaning of the image in Daniel 2. How exactly is that wrong?


.
 
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gospelfer

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gospelfer, I admit to not reading through your opening post, but scanning it appears as though you are of the view that Islam is going to play the center arch villian of the great tribulation period?

Well, I'm glad you admit you didn't read it. :)

Seriously, though, I don't make any assertions about any details of the way the "end" plays out. This is an attempt to come at matters from a completely different direction. I often think we come a prophecy from the wrong direction. We all variously stitch together a bunch of disparate events as best we can, and then work upwards from there, eventually reaching high-level prophecies like Dan 2. Why not go they other way and see what happens? After all, there aren't that many linnear long term prophetic accounts. Why don't we look closely at them first, and then work downwards? The granddaddy of all linnear accounts is Moses' 3 part history of Israel found in Deut 28-30. Daniel 2 appears to fit Moses scheme while adding further detail. After that I would guess comes Dan 7, then Dan 11, and finally Revelation. After that we would then move to passages like Dan 39 to see where they fit the big picture. Current prophetic exposition very much resembles a bunch blind men describing an elephant from the small part of it they can feel. Why not start with a good overall picture?

If:
Gold == Babylon &
Silver == Persia &
Bronze == Greece &
Iron == Rome

and, furthermore, Daniel states that the materials represent the kingdoms' durability; how can the feet of iron & clay last only a few years?! Daniel's description strongly suggests feet made of chunks of iron "welded" together with clay. He says the iron pieces will mix and marry but not stay together -- but they are still made of iron. Looked at another way: if the golden head lasts 70 years, and you wanted to suggest an empire lasting only 5 years, wouldn't the best material be clay alone (or sand, or papier-machet)? Instead Daniel suggests something complex, something with the durability of iron (Rome), but which has trouble staying coherently together.

This picture has an amazing coherence with actual history. It captures the historical duration of 5 successive powers to hold the holy land, while telling us that the last one, Islam, has an "iron" (or Roman) duration, but an inability to cohere in the same way that Rome did. This picture is both intuitive and historically accurate. Also notice that this picture makes the unity of this single-man statue actually mean something, and it's unity is Israel's Mosaic curse -- the conquest and trampling of the land by foreign powers (Daniel mentions this "trampling" a couple times). Thus, this description neatly overlays the period of the Mosaic "curse", filling it in with 5 powers, and telling us some significant details about those 5 powers.

In short, I'm suggesting we work from the larger picture to the details. This method works, and better than the ones we having been using up to now. As I've said before, this all comes from the book "Primary Prophecy", and it starts with the high-level story and moves down to the details, leaving nothing out. What results is something that is more rational, more believable, and matches actual history far better than any current interpretations of prophecy. For my money, it is the fulfillment of Daniel 12:9.
 
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5thKingdom

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This picture has an amazing coherence with actual history. It captures the historical duration of 5 successive powers to hold the holy land, while telling us that the last one, Islam, has an "iron" (or Roman) duration, but an inability to cohere in the same way that Rome did. This picture is both intuitive and historically accurate.



Sir... if you believe the above, how do you explain Daniel 7:11-12

because the PEOPLE in the Roman Empire were NOT "cast alive" into

the "Lake-of-Fire"... while the PEOPLE in the previous kingdoms remain

on earth for a "Season and Time".



There is NO WAY that you can claim your theory is "historically accurate"

unless you are willing to say RIGHT NOW that the people of the Roman Empire

were "given to the Burning Flame" long ago.... long before the JUDGMENT

of the PEOPLE in the Babylonian, Persian and Greek Empires.



History proves your theory wrong. The PEOPLE of Rome were NOT Judged before the Babylonians,

and the Persians and the Greeks.... you are NOT teaching that as history.... you IGNORE Daniel 7:11-12



Either Daniel 7:11-12 is wrong.... or your theory is wrong.

And I am certain the Bible is NOT wrong.


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gospelfer

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The clue is that the 5th kingdom is not by human hands. It is not in the same category as the others. It came in Christ and rules a different way.

I'm a little wierded out here. We are talking about Daniel 2? -- I'm not being facetious.

Golden Head
Silver Chest
Brazen waist
Iron Legs
Feet of mixed iron and clay.
A boulder that smashes the whole man and becomes a new kingdom.

I count 6. 5 ordinary kingdoms, followed by a "heavenly" kingdom.
 
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