I Feel Nothing at Church and I'm Sick of It

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GratiaCorpusChristi

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I'm really tired of going into church in a parish that celebrates using various forms of historic liturgies and coming out feeling only two things: boredom and annoyance.

Now I'm certainly high church, and definitely don't want anything more contemporary. That would drive the annoying to chalkboard-meet-nails levels. But there is passion and emotion to a well done liturgy that is just absent from the way it is done in my parish, and from the well I feel it is done at many other parishes in my denomination and in other denominations.

Good Friday is a case in point. Where was the gravitas? Where was the pathos? Sucked out by sticking a mediocre homily after the passion narrative and by a sad lack of preparation. Annoyed.

Oh, and humor. Sometimes it's humorous. Like when the pastor says that Jesus cryed out on the crosses "llama llama llama sabachtani." Then more annoyance. Or when the lights were supposed to go out at the end of the service (although it wasn't exactly a Tenebrae service or even a Seven Last Words-Tenebrae hybrid service, which annoyed me even more), but someone forgot to turn off the lights over the choir and over the organ, which made the altar fully visible. Annoyed again.

I took everything I had not to feel these emotions during the service it. I was gripping my chotki and praying the Jesus Prayer and using all my meditative techniques to keep from feeling them. But it's over, and it's out now.

But on a more regular basis, there are just annoying things. Like the fact that the Offertory ends, and only once the music is over do the ushers proceed to the front, hand off the plates, and the pastor puts them up on the altar with the cute little rhyming prayer (speaking of things I hate, rhyming prayers). Silence is a great thing that we need to appreciate more, but that eternal 10 seconds of avoidable silence is awkward and avoidable silence, not purposeful and structured silence. The same goes for the fact that between the final hymn and the postlude, we have to wait a full 60 seconds while the altar boy extinguishes the candles before we can leave. Why can't that process start on the final verse of the hymn? The lack of preparation, narrative flow, rhetorical care, and coordination isn't awful, but it is extremely distracting. And to a stereotypically cynical man on the boarder between Gen X and Millennial, that hits me right in the gut and fully kills any sense of joy or sorrow or serenity the liturgical season, readings, or particular day are supposed to engender.

Now I know some people are going to come back and say "It's not about the quality of the music or the rhythm or the timing, but about what it all means." I hear you. This is partially, perhaps mostly, my own fault. But these are also easily fixable things that create breaks in a liturgy that is designed to have flow.

And I'm sure some Lutherans will come back and say my focus on feelings is wrong, even Pietist (cue scary music). But feelings aren't wrong, they're part of a healthy, integrated spirituality. Emotion is an important part of the experience of liturgy and Christianity. And it seems to me that a lack of professionalism and flow breaks up what is supposed to be a liturgical drama, a reenactment of salvation history.

I feel like I've focused too much on the breaks in the service, too. It's not just that. It's doing things like using the non-metrical version of O Sacred Head (LSB 450) instead of the metrical version (LSB 459) when we're singing with only words printed in the bulletin, without notes. How is anybody supposed to pick up a non-metrical, completely atypical rhythm without notes? A similar goof: The very first week of Lent we sang Thy Strong Word, which ends each and every verse with the A-word! Just stupid, stupid, stupid.

So boredom, annoyance, or cynical fun. That's what I'm getting out of church now. And while I really want to try to be better and use my chotki and the hesychastic meditation techniques to focus, these pastoral and ministerial and administrative failures are working against me. And yet when I bring up the awkward silences, I'm told silence is good. Or when I bring up other changes that would be positive in the face of cynical Millennials (going paperless, taking down a board of Chick-style CPH tracts in the Narthex), I'm told I'll offend everyone and that nobody wants change and a whole variety of excuses and get pegged as the low-church rebel that I'm precisely not.

And finally, I write this for myself, but especially for others, because I know for a fact there are other people out there who feel the exact same way.
 

HumbleMan

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I feel much the same in my church, and that's why I'm coming out of the evangelistic church. I do like the music, and the I have many friends there, but it is lacking the reverence I'm looking for, the deeper bond with Jesus, the lack of, sometimes disdain for, church history and traditions. I'm hoping to find some of this in the UMC, which I'll be visiting soon.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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I feel much the same in my church, and that's why I'm coming out of the evangelistic church. I do like the music, and the I have many friends there, but it is lacking the reverence I'm looking for, the deeper bond with Jesus, the lack of, sometimes disdain for, church history and traditions. I'm hoping to find some of this in the UMC, which I'll be visiting soon.

Good luck to you. I really hope you find what you're looking for. The UMC is a pretty mixed bag, but it can at times be a really great place. For something similar check out the Anglican Church in North America.
 
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HumbleMan

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Living in the deep south, my main options are Baptist, UMC, and a smattering of pentecostal and Catholic churches. Besides, my wife grew up methodist and baptist, and she has no interest in becoming members of an apostolic tradition church, though I wouldn't mind.

Thanks for the encouraging words. The UMC here is fairly conservative and still practice most of the traditions of it's early beginnings.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Living in the deep south, my main options are Baptist, UMC, and a smattering of pentecostal and Catholic churches. Besides, my wife grew up methodist and baptist, and she has no interest in becoming members of an apostolic tradition church, though I wouldn't mind.

Thanks for the encouraging words. The UMC here is fairly conservative and still practice most of the traditions of it's early beginnings.

We're actually moving to San Antonio in July and have spent some time looking for an appropriate LCMS church (traditional liturgy, weekly communion). We might have found one, but in our search we also discovered that San Antonio is home to the original Anglican Rite Catholic parish, Our Lady of the Atonement. Who knew?
 
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My own comment is if the church is the gathering of believers, it's main objective should be the regeneration of the believers uplifting of believers in spirit and truth, in it's weekly meeting and special days.

In spirit, by praise to God in singing and prayer. In truth, by the teaching of God's word.
 
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seashale76

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Is it me or are churches these days straying away from the Gospel and preaching more in a contemporary fashion for modern conveniences?
It's not just you. This insidious deviation is so pervasive that many Christians don't even realize it. You can see it here at CF anytime someone uses the word audience instead of congregation.
 
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WirSindBettler

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I'm really tired of going into church in a parish that celebrates using various forms of historic liturgies and coming out feeling only two things: boredom and annoyance.

Is church simply liturgy? If you're only attending for the liturgy, you're going for the wrong reason. The importance is Word and Sacrament, and an emphasis on fellowship.
Now I'm certainly high church, and definitely don't want anything more contemporary. That would drive the annoying to chalkboard-meet-nails levels. But there is passion and emotion to a well done liturgy that is just absent from the way it is done in my parish, and from the well I feel it is done at many other parishes in my denomination and in other denominations.

If you feel it is done well in other denominations, why not attend those services?

Also, High Church and Contemporary aren't the only two forms of worship. Go to a Church of Christ or a Primitive Baptist Church, and tell me they use "contemporary" worship.
Good Friday is a case in point. Where was the gravitas? Where was the pathos? Sucked out by sticking a mediocre homily after the passion narrative and by a sad lack of preparation. Annoyed.

Although this might not be the case, complaining about the Good Friday Liturgy and a lack of gravitas and pathos indicates for me a lack of inner conversion (or of the spirit).

My mins keeps wandering to Luke 18:9-14:
He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayeda thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

The liturgy should add to church, but the real service is about Jesus, not about your preferences.
Oh, and humor. Sometimes it's humorous.

Run for the hills! The Pastor made a joke! :D
Like when the pastor says that Jesus cryed out on the crosses "llama llama llama sabachtani." Then more annoyance.

OK. I get your point. That's actually in really poor taste given the occasion.
Or when the lights were supposed to go out at the end of the service

I've been in services where they've forgotten.
(although it wasn't exactly a Tenebrae service or even a Seven Last Words-Tenebrae hybrid service, which annoyed me even more),

Your Pastor is not responsible to you in regards to liturgy.
but someone forgot to turn off the lights over the choir and over the organ, which made the altar fully visible. Annoyed again.

Can't have your 80 year-old organist trip over a cord and fall off the balcony during the solemn and silent walk out of church.
I took everything I had not to feel these emotions during the service it. I was gripping my chotki and praying the Jesus Prayer and using all my meditative techniques to keep from feeling them. But it's over, and it's out now.

You need a chokti to pray the Jesus prayer? I find them even more distracting.
But on a more regular basis, there are just annoying things. Like the fact that the Offertory ends, and only once the music is over do the ushers proceed to the front, hand off the plates, and the pastor puts them up on the altar with the cute little rhyming prayer (speaking of things I hate, rhyming prayers).

Ah man I hate hymns too. Rhyming prayers set to music. ;)
Silence is a great thing that we need to appreciate more, but that eternal 10 seconds of avoidable silence is awkward and avoidable silence, not purposeful and structured silence. The same goes for the fact that between the final hymn and the postlude, we have to wait a full 60 seconds while the altar boy extinguishes the candles before we can leave. Why can't that process start on the final verse of the hymn?

I'm trying really hard not to use biting sarcasm right now.
The lack of preparation, narrative flow, rhetorical care, and coordination isn't awful, but it is extremely distracting. And to a stereotypically cynical man on the boarder between Gen X and Millennial, that hits me right in the gut and fully kills any sense of joy or sorrow or serenity the liturgical season, readings, or particular day are supposed to engender.

As a Millennial who loves the liturgy, your focusing far too much on it and not on theology or your own inward sinfulness and Christian transformation.
Now I know some people are going to come back and say "It's not about the quality of the music or the rhythm or the timing, but about what it all means." I hear you. This is partially, perhaps mostly, my own fault. But these are also easily fixable things that create breaks in a liturgy that is designed to have flow.

Then bring them up with your Pastor/elders, rather than *whining* about them on an internet forum.
And I'm sure some Lutherans will come back and say my focus on feelings is wrong, even Pietist (cue scary music). But feelings aren't wrong, they're part of a healthy, integrated spirituality. Emotion is an important part of the experience of liturgy and Christianity. And it seems to me that a lack of professionalism and flow breaks up what is supposed to be a liturgical drama, a reenactment of salvation history.

I was thinking the exact opposite. You're focusing too much on the liturgy and not enough on your own inward feelings of salvation.
I feel like I've focused too much on the breaks in the service, too. It's not just that. It's doing things like using the non-metrical version of O Sacred Head (LSB 450) instead of the metrical version (LSB 459) when we're singing with only words printed in the bulletin, without notes. How is anybody supposed to pick up a non-metrical, completely atypical rhythm without notes?

Unless you're singing a cappella, usually by struggling along with everyone else in the congregation to the tune the organist is playing.
A similar goof: The very first week of Lent we sang Thy Strong Word, which ends each and every verse with the A-word! Just stupid, stupid, stupid.

Fair point. Our congregation sang "Alleluia, Sing to Jesus" on Quinquagesima. :doh:
So boredom, annoyance, or cynical fun. That's what I'm getting out of church now. And while I really want to try to be better and use my chotki and the hesychastic meditation techniques to focus, these pastoral and ministerial and administrative failures are working against me. And yet when I bring up the awkward silences, I'm told silence is good. Or when I bring up other changes that would be positive in the face of cynical Millennials (going paperless, taking down a board of Chick-style CPH tracts in the Narthex), I'm told I'll offend everyone and that nobody wants change and a whole variety of excuses and get pegged as the low-church rebel that I'm precisely not.

CPH does cartoon tracts? Where can I buy some?
And finally, I write this for myself, but especially for others, because I know for a fact there are other people out there who feel the exact same way.

I agree with some points, but not all.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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And I'm sure some Lutherans will come back and say my focus on feelings is wrong, even Pietist (cue scary music).


;)



But feelings aren't wrong, they're part of a healthy, integrated spirituality.
... and of course, we largely CHOOSE to "feel" what we do. Nothing can cause emotions. Nor is emotion the essence of Christianity.





Some additional thoughts, IF I MAY....
:wave:


1. My father is fond of saying there are only two kinds of people in the world: those looking for greener grass and those making the grass greener. He noted that the first is always frustrated, always complaining and always sensing a need to move. The second, he noted, works and serves in a spirit of humility and contribution.


2. Congregations are families..... and families are never perfect. There's always a crazy Aunt Zelda and always things that aren't the way WE'D like. But then family is not me. Family is us. I think part of the problem with too many contemporary Christians is that they look only in the mirror - at THEIR thoughts, feeling, opinions, wants. Self centeredness... as if it's Jesus and ME. Congregations.... Christianity..... it's not individualism. It's not about me.


3. I have a strong, strong sense that we are not to be takers in anything we are a part of. So, when I became a regular attender at my tiny LCMS parish, I offered my time and whatever talents I had/have. This before I was Confirmed and before I was thus a formal member. I ushered, did Greeting, sang in the choir. I painted and cleaned and did gardening. Later I began to teach Sunday School. Today I still do all those things, plus I'm the chairman of the Board of Trustees and serve on the Board of Elders. NEVER is ANYTHING done exactly as I'd like. But I'm a part of a greater whole..... a family...... a church. It's not like playing golf, it's like playing basketball or rowing in crew. It's us.


4. Forgiveness is the essence of Christian community.... extending the grace and mercy which God first showered UNCONDITIONALLY upon us. We cannot expect others in the church to forgive me - the chief of sinners - if I'm not in my heart doing the same to them. Jesus even suggests that in His Model Prayer?


5. We have to die before we can join the only perfect church.



I've added you to my prayer journal


Blessings to you and yours at Easter....


- Josiah
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Is church simply liturgy? If you're only attending for the liturgy, you're going for the wrong reason. The importance is Word and Sacrament, and an emphasis on fellowship.

I'm using liturgy as a shorthand for word and sacrament, because liturgy is the context wherein word and sacrament are delivered.

If you feel it is done well in other denominations, why not attend those services?

I said the exact opposite of this. I'm saying this isn't only an LCMS problem.

Also, High Church and Contemporary aren't the only two forms of worship. Go to a Church of Christ or a Primitive Baptist Church, and tell me they use "contemporary" worship.

I never said anything of the kind.

Although this might not be the case, complaining about the Good Friday Liturgy and a lack of gravitas and pathos indicates for me a lack of inner conversion (or of the spirit).

You have no way of knowing that. What a terrible thing to say to someone.

My mins keeps wandering to Luke 18:9-14:

And if you had bothered to read ahead before critiquing, you'd realize I was praying exactly that prayer.

Your Pastor is not responsible to you in regards to liturgy.

Then who is he responsible to?

Can't have your 80 year-old organist trip over a cord and fall off the balcony during the solemn and silent walk out of church.

She's 40, there's no balcony, and lights come back on afterward. The ushers could have turned them off because the lights are accessible from outside the sanctuary, but there, again, was zero preparation or coordination. Embarrassing. Especially when there are visitors.

You need a chokti to pray the Jesus prayer? I find them even more distracting.

I don't need it, but I use it in the traditional manner, yes.

Ah man I hate hymns too. Rhyming prayers set to music. ;)

Rhyming while singing is an acceptable adult practice in our culture. Rhyming while speaking is either done at a poetry recital or for children.

As a Millennial who loves the liturgy, your focusing far too much on it and not on theology or your own inward sinfulness and Christian transformation.

You really can't say that. I go to private confession every week, and I know the theology of word and sacrament, and the objectivity of grace. I try to be a better person. Just because I'm focused on the embarrassing lack of preparation and decorum in the practice of the church service (there, does "church service" work better than "liturgy" to convey everything that's going on?) doesn't mean I'm not focused on my own inward transformation.

Then bring them up with your Pastor/elders, rather than *whining* about them on an internet forum.

Again, if you had read ahead instead of jumping to conclusions- which is exactly what you're doing- you'd know that I have brought up these and other issues with the church and met a brick wall of baby boomer resistance. I actually really, really love my pastor and as an elder have a great relationship with him, but the assistant pastor and the other elders are completely resistant to any change of any sort.

Moreover, I want to make my voice heard because I know there are others out there, and their concerns are valid.

I was thinking the exact opposite. You're focusing too much on the liturgy and not enough on your own inward feelings of salvation.

Are you serious, man? Did I not already say that I was praying the Jesus prayer and trying like hell to focus on my status as a poor, miserable sinner because an angry but merciful God? Did I not already say that I am letting this out now because I was able to keep it bottled up in church?

You're assuming a lot of things about me that simply aren't true, and you're basically telling me that my concerns aren't valid. That's terribly unpastoral.

Unless you're singing a cappella, usually by struggling along with everyone else in the congregation to the tune the organist is playing.

But people actually know the tune to 459 and it's objectively easier to sing because it's in 4/4! The rhythm of 460 sounds like the footsteps of a drunk stumbling down the street!

CPH does cartoon tracts? Where can I buy some?

Please O God don't.
 
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Melethiel

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Is church simply liturgy? If you're only attending for the liturgy, you're going for the wrong reason. The importance is Word and Sacrament, and an emphasis on fellowship.

But as other people our age agreed this morning, the conveyance of the Word can be marred when the pastor reads the passion narrative in the tone of voice you would use to read a children's story.

If you feel it is done well in other denominations, why not attend those services?

Also, High Church and Contemporary aren't the only two forms of worship. Go to a Church of Christ or a Primitive Baptist Church, and tell me they use "contemporary" worship.

You've completely missed the point. You've responded to the exact opposite of the point, in fact.

Although this might not be the case, complaining about the Good Friday Liturgy and a lack of gravitas and pathos indicates for me a lack of inner conversion (or of the spirit).

My mins keeps wandering to Luke 18:9-14:

I sincerely hope that you never say that to anybody in real life. Iirc you want to become a pastor...is that really what you would say to a parishioner? "If you don't like our half [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] liturgy, you must not be a real Christian ". Shame on you.




Run for the hills! The Pastor made a joke! :D

Oh it was a joke, but not in the way you're thinking...

Can't have your 80 year-old organist trip over a cord and fall off the balcony during the solemn and silent walk out of church.

Why are you assuming that all organists are 80? As an organist, I take offense to that statement. Younger people can't like the organ?

You need a chokti to pray the Jesus prayer? I find them even more distracting.

I'm glad you're so enlightened.

Ah man I hate hymns too. Rhyming prayers set to music. ;)

Apples and oranges, and you know that. Do you just read out the hymns without music?

As a Millennial who loves the liturgy, your focusing far too much on it and not on theology or your own inward sinfulness and Christian transformation.

And you know this from a single post? Wow, I wish I had your skills at mind reading.

CPH does cartoon tracts? Where can I buy some.

I'll tell you, but only if you're planning to make a bonfire with them. (Said tracts haven't been changed since the 70s btw)
 
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WirSindBettler

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GCC, I'm not trying to attack or condemn you! I'm merely trying to raise some points for the sake of argument.

I have been in this situation before. Ultimately what it boiled down to was whether I valued liturgy or theology. I found that I had to sacrifice some of my wants in the liturgical department for the sake of theology.

Don't worry though, one day we will be in a church with the perfect liturgy. Just look at Rev. 22.
I'm using liturgy as a shorthand for word and sacrament, because liturgy is the context wherein word and sacrament are delivered.

Got it.
I said the exact opposite of this. I'm saying this isn't only an LCMS problem.

I misread, sorry.
I never said anything of the kind.

You left out the entire Low Church non-contemporary movement. My Pilgrim ancestors started turning over in their graves. Sorry, but I had to appease them. :D
You have no way of knowing that. What a terrible thing to say to someone.

You're right, I do have no way of knowing that. Which is exactly why I put "this might not be the case." However, when I was in this situation before, I found that by complaining that I couldn't properly worship without proper liturgy due to the exacting standard I sinfully demanded rather than focusing on Christ, it seemed to belie that I lacked a certain "spirit." Again, I don't know about you. I'm not making any claims, I'm just pointing out a possibility.
And if you had bothered to read ahead before critiquing, you'd realize I was praying exactly that prayer.

In what I sinfully claimed was a rote fashion. Forgive me.
I was trying to point out my views above. The whole liturgy over Christ thing (which is bad).
Then who is he responsible to?

The congregation as a whole, not just me or you, as much as we may hate it.;)
She's 40, there's no balcony, and lights come back on afterward. The ushers could have turned them off because the lights are accessible from outside the sanctuary, but there, again, was zero preparation or coordination. Embarrassing. Especially when there are visitors.

Never mind then.
I don't need it, but I use it in the traditional manner, yes.

I was trying to criticize what I assumed was a rote prayer use. Forgive me if I offended.
Rhyming while singing is an acceptable adult practice in our culture. Rhyming while speaking is either done at a poetry recital or for children.

I completely agree with you.
You really can't say that. I go to private confession every week, and I know the theology of word and sacrament, and the objectivity of grace. I try to be a better person. Just because I'm focused on the embarrassing lack of preparation and decorum in the practice of the church service (there, does "church service" work better than "liturgy" to convey everything that's going on?) doesn't mean I'm not focused on my own inward transformation.

I never said you weren't, but it seemed that you were placing the liturgy above your own use, which had happened to me before. I led a brother astray once, and am hard on myself for doing so (1 Corinthians 8).

I don't know you. All I know are your responses, and that (hopefully) you are a brother in Christ.

I myself am chief of sinners.

Also, I hate to say it, but you sound just a little stuck up (no offense). Before I was baptized, I often spoke like the Pharisee, saying "God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get." Thus, you're response: "You really can't say that. I go to private confession every week, and I know the theology of word and sacrament, and the objectivity of grace. I try to be a better person. Just because I'm focused on the embarrassing lack of preparation and decorum in the practice of the church service (there, does "church service" work better than "liturgy" to convey everything that's going on?) doesn't mean I'm not focused on my own inward transformation." seemed just a bit harsh to me. Sorry if I offended.
Again, if you had read ahead instead of jumping to conclusions- which is exactly what you're doing- you'd know that I have brought up these and other issues with the church and met a brick wall of baby boomer resistance. I actually really, really love my pastor and as an elder have a great relationship with him, but the assistant pastor and the other elders are completely resistant to any change of any sort.

Thank you for putting words in my mouth and telling me I'm jumping to conclusions. I'm sorry if I offended before.
Moreover, I want to make my voice heard because I know there are others out there, and their concerns are valid.

I agree with you for the most part. I'm simply saying that just because something works for you doesn't mean something works for everybody. Though you may want change, not everyone else does.
Are you serious, man? Did I not already say that I was praying the Jesus prayer and trying like hell to focus on my status as a poor, miserable sinner because an angry but merciful God? Did I not already say that I am letting this out now because I was able to keep it bottled up in church?

Yes you did! I'm not trying to attack you, but rather to say as someone who often has the same problems that eventually you will have to sacrifice something for the sake of theology. God knows I'd be a lot more liturgically happier in an High Anglican Church, and that you'd be a lot happier in a more liturgical church (I'm guessing Orthodox by your love of Byzantine architecture and liturgy), but I myself make the sacrifice of listening to liturgical error for the sake of Confessional Lutheran Theology. I'm just trying to speak out of my own experiment.
You're assuming a lot of things about me that simply aren't true, and you're basically telling me that my concerns aren't valid. That's terribly unpastoral.

I didn't mean to offend.

(A) I'm a sinner.
(B) You're assuming that I did this all on purpose, which would be assuming a lot about me that isn't true.
(C) Your concerns are extremely valid, and I do sympathize, but you have to choose Liturgy v. Theology.
(D) I'm not a Pastor.
But people actually know the tune to 459 and it's objectively easier to sing because it's in 4/4! The rhythm of 460 sounds like the footsteps of a drunk stumbling down the street!

This is most certainly true.
Please O God don't.

I was only joking.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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GCC, I'm not trying to attack or condemn you! I'm merely trying to raise some points for the sake of argument.

I have been in this situation before. Ultimately what it boiled down to was whether I valued liturgy or theology. I found that I had to sacrifice some of my wants in the liturgical department for the sake of theology.

Don't worry though, one day we will be in a church with the perfect liturgy. Just look at Rev. 22.


Got it.


I misread, sorry.


You left out the entire Low Church non-contemporary movement. My Pilgrim ancestors started turning over in their graves. Sorry, but I had to appease them. :D


You're right, I do have no way of knowing that. Which is exactly why I put "this might not be the case." However, when I was in this situation before, I found that by complaining that I couldn't properly worship without proper liturgy due to the exacting standard I sinfully demanded rather than focusing on Christ, it seemed to belie that I lacked a certain "spirit." Again, I don't know about you. I'm not making any claims, I'm just pointing out a possibility.


In what I sinfully claimed was a rote fashion. Forgive me.
I was trying to point out my views above. The whole liturgy over Christ thing (which is bad).


The congregation as a whole, not just me or you, as much as we may hate it.;)


Never mind then.


I was trying to criticize what I assumed was a rote prayer use. Forgive me if I offended.


I completely agree with you.


I never said you weren't, but it seemed that you were placing the liturgy above your own use, which had happened to me before. I led a brother astray once, and am hard on myself for doing so (1 Corinthians 8).

I don't know you. All I know are your responses, and that (hopefully) you are a brother in Christ.

I myself am chief of sinners.

Also, I hate to say it, but you sound just a little stuck up (no offense). Before I was baptized, I often spoke like the Pharisee, saying "God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get." Thus, you're response: "You really can't say that. I go to private confession every week, and I know the theology of word and sacrament, and the objectivity of grace. I try to be a better person. Just because I'm focused on the embarrassing lack of preparation and decorum in the practice of the church service (there, does "church service" work better than "liturgy" to convey everything that's going on?) doesn't mean I'm not focused on my own inward transformation." seemed just a bit harsh to me. Sorry if I offended.


Thank you for putting words in my mouth and telling me I'm jumping to conclusions. I'm sorry if I offended before.


I agree with you for the most part. I'm simply saying that just because something works for you doesn't mean something works for everybody. Though you may want change, not everyone else does.


Yes you did! I'm not trying to attack you, but rather to say as someone who often has the same problems that eventually you will have to sacrifice something for the sake of theology. God knows I'd be a lot more liturgically happier in an High Anglican Church, and that you'd be a lot happier in a more liturgical church (I'm guessing Orthodox by your love of Byzantine architecture and liturgy), but I myself make the sacrifice of listening to liturgical error for the sake of Confessional Lutheran Theology. I'm just trying to speak out of my own experiment.


I didn't mean to offend.

(A) I'm a sinner.
(B) You're assuming that I did this all on purpose, which would be assuming a lot about me that isn't true.
(C) Your concerns are extremely valid, and I do sympathize, but you have to choose Liturgy v. Theology.
(D) I'm not a Pastor.


This is most certainly true.


I was only joking.

You're right. I agree with everything you've written here. Sorry, really. Thank you.
 
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WirSindBettler

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Thank you for assuming a lot about me.
But as other people our age agreed this morning, the conveyance of the Word can be marred when the pastor reads the passion narrative in the tone of voice you would use to read a children's story.

I completely agree. I never insinuated that this was good.
You've completely missed the point. You've responded to the exact opposite of the point, in fact.

As I pointed out in my response, I misread what he had stated.
I sincerely hope that you never say that to anybody in real life.

I was speaking out of my own experience. To quote my response, "I put "this might not be the case." However, when I was in this situation before, I found that by complaining that I couldn't properly worship without proper liturgy due to the exacting standard I sinfully demanded rather than focusing on Christ, it seemed to belie that I lacked a certain "spirit." Again, I don't know about you. I'm not making any claims, I'm just pointing out a possibility."
Iirc you want to become a pastor...is that really what you would say to a parishioner?

If I was a Pastor, which I'm not, I would be able to have a discussion and clearly convey my own personal experience with what had happened, rather than quote an internet post debating the importance of exacting liturgical standards.
"If you don't like our half [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] liturgy, you must not be a real Christian ". Shame on you.

Thank you for assuming that is what I meant. Thank you for telling me that I'm a terrible Christian unfit for the Pastoral office. Thank you.
Oh it was a joke, but not in the way you're thinking...

I then continued to say it was completely inappropriate for the circumstances. Thank you for quoting me out of context.
Why are you assuming that all organists are 80? As an organist, I take offense to that statement. Younger people can't like the organ?

I love the organ. I was making a joke. My home church has a really high balcony at the end of the rather narrow nave, and our 80 year-old organist (who's been playing since he was 30) while playing the organ, sits in a groove with a 1/2 foot railing separating him from certain doom.
I'm glad you're so enlightened.

I had wrongly assumed he was using it in rote prayer fashion.
Apples and oranges, and you know that. Do you just read out the hymns without music?

It was a joke. And yes, we do. They're called Psalms.
And you know this from a single post? Wow, I wish I had your skills at mind reading.

I was applying my own personal experience to his.
I'll tell you, but only if you're planning to make a bonfire with them. (Said tracts haven't been changed since the 70s btw)

Do they still use the KJV like the red hymnal? With that Gothic German font?
 
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MoreCoffee

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I went to the Easter Vigil mass last night. Being a sponsor of one of our parish elect, who was confirmed at the vigil mass, meant I was in the front pew and so was close to the altar and the incense, candles, and bells. It was a wonderful mass, beautiful for all sorts of reasons and the five minute homily was also most excellent.

We used small electric candles. We turned them on at the second stop of the procession into the church (where the deacon called out in plain song "The light of Christ"). In the past we used wax candles and that was always so lovely as each person passed the light of Christ to his or her neighbour in the procession. But the electric candles looked lovely and filled the church with a gentle wavering light as the people filled the church.

The liturgy was long, lasting over two hours, and we baptised and confirmed the elect from our parish. This too was beautiful to behold. The awe and wonder in the faces of the elect was a delight to see.

The liturgy of the holy Eucharist was beautiful. Holy, and most reverent.

At the end of the mass, after the dismissal our parish priest, in his most sweet tone of voice, asked all to place their candle with its light burning on the (now cleaned) altar and the lights were dimmed so that the altar was covered in the flickering lights of around 500 candles. And we recessed out of the church into the church hall where we had light refreshments and a chance for all the people to greet and talk with the newly charismated members of the body.

I can't have wished for better.
 
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