Prophetic Language of Matthew 24 Explained - Article

A man's imagination can fool him

The prophet deals in facts and is never wrong

Preterism continues to raise its ugly head.

So we can conclude that the language of Matthew 24 is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. It was 100% fulfilled prophecy!

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This use to be funny the first few times you heard it but now it's just old and boring material. What's funny is there is still no scripture.

Jerico,
that's quite a statement. Any normal reading of Mt 24 is that the answer to the 2-3 questions follows. The question was when will the temple/city be flattened?

Why did they ask that? Because of the end of ch 23 about the desolation. (If you want to know how poor the use of Mt 24 is, the first question is 'has the teacher connected 'the abomination of desolation' with ch 23?')

Why does ch 23 say this? Well, it is for the reasons inside ch 23, but there is more; there is lead-up to it. The misconduct of Israel had already been addressed in 21 and 22. There are two parables that explain why Israel would be crushed in judgement. The vineyard workers, and the wedding invitation. Look again at the wedding invitation parable, and you'll find a declaration of the coming of judgement that is almost out of place. How many ignored wedding hosts are going to go burn the city of the people who refused to come? Very peculiar.

Back to 24: so it is to be read as though he was only adding details of the coming DofJ. If you read it several times, preferably aloud, you might get the sense, as many have, that it is not a progression or a lineal sequence but of several layers of things going on at the same time: geopolitical upheaval, persecution for believers, specific events in Israel, in the city, and the temple, all going on at the same time. The time of unequalled trouble.

The only place the OP might be lacking is that at v29 he might truly have meant to allow for the end of the world, but only allowed. It didn't have to come but was expected.

The dual nature of prophecy is very important,when understood the problem with AD70 goes away.

A Source of Confusion

One of the best examples of a dual prophecy is the Olivet Prophecy recorded in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. Many years ago, while studying this prophecy with the help of a commentary, I became very confused. At the time, neither I nor the author of the commentary understood the principle of duality. Thinking that this prophecy referred only to the destruction of Jerusalem, the commentator frankly admitted that he did not understand why Christ said that His coming would occur "immediately after the tribulation of those daysMatthew 24:29).

Today, we understand that the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 was a type of the Great Tribulation which will occur in the time immediately preceding the second coming of Christ. We can see that He actually prophesied two events. Jerusalem's destruction was the type, and the Great Tribulation is the antitype.

This particular prophecy highlights how vital it is to understand the duality principle. Many early Christians did not understand that the Olivet Prophecy was dual and fully expected Christ to return after the destruction of Jerusalem. When He failed to appear, some were very disappointed and disillusioned. Some lost faith and stopped believing. This disappointment was a major factor in causing the church to fall into apostasy in the closing decades of the first century.

Failure to understand the duality of prophecy also played a role in the Jews' rejection of Christ. The Jews thought (and still think) the Messiah would come as a conquering, human king to restore Israel to its former wealth and power. This idea was based on the many prophecies in the Old Testament which are actually describing the second coming of Christ and His millennial reign. An understanding of this principle of duality, along with careful study of the many prophecies showing the suffering and death of the Messiah, may have prevented this tragic error.

The type often stops short of fulfilling the whole prophecy. Jesus pointed out a very clear example of this inLuke 4:16-21. On a Sabbath day in Nazareth shortly after He began His ministry, He publicly read from Isaiah 61:1-2, stopping abruptly after the first line in verse 2. He told the amazed audience, "Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing." This portion of the prophecy was fulfilled, in type, during His earthly ministry. It will be completely fulfilled, as the antitype, throughout the whole world during His millennial reign. Had Jesus read any further, He would have spoken of events belonging exclusively to His second coming, so He did not claim to be fulfilling them. An astute Jew, upon hearing Christ's words, could have avoided the error that led them to reject and condemn Him to crucifixion.

The principle of duality in prophecy is especially important to God's church today. Many prophecies in the New Testament predicted the great apostasy which took place in the church toward the end of the first century II Thessalonians 2:3-12; II Timothy 3:1-8; 4:3-4; Jude 3-4). All of these prophecies are dual. The falling away from the revealed truth of God that occurred in the first century is a type of what is happening today in the church. We are witnessing some of these prophecies being fulfilled! Duality in prophecy is being demonstrated in our lifetimes before our very eyes!

random person said in post 1:

When most people read the prophetic language of Matthew 24, like "coming on the clouds of heaven & the sun will be darkened, moon turned to blood" they incorrectly associate such phrases with the second coming of Christ.

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Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:29 can refer literally to clouds blocking the light from the sun and moon. And it can refer to what we still today call "falling stars", i.e. meteors, but ones which will also be meteorites, i.e. ones which will pass through the clouds and be seen before they land on the earth. So "heaven" in Matthew 24:29-31 can simply refer to the 1st heaven, the sky/atmosphere. Also, "the powers of the heavens" which will be shaken can refer to the literal, fallen-angelic "powers" who currently rule the unsaved world from high above the earth (Ephesians 6:12, Ephesians 2:2).

Matthew 24:30 refers to Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming, when he himself will appear in the clouds: "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30). And this won't occur until immediately after the never-fulfilled tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Matthew 24:30 will occur at the same time as the never-fulfilled Matthew 24:29 and Matthew 24:31.

random person said in post 1:

Judgment: Isa.19:1

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Isaiah 19 hasn't been fulfilled yet. For Isaiah 19:5,17-25 has never happened, but will happen during the future millennium, when the physically returned Jesus will bring judgments on Egypt for its refusal, at first, to come up to worship him in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:16-21). Jesus travelling on a cloud in the sky in Isaiah 19:1 can be literal and physical, just as Jesus ascending into a cloud in the sky in Acts 1:9 was literal and physical.

random person said in post 1:

So we can conclude that the language of Matthew 24 is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

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Note that just as the highly detailed tribulation events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 find no historical fulfillment, so the tribulation events of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 find no historical fulfillment. For example, Luke 21:24 refers to the same future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), the details of which time period are shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled. Similarly, Jesus' 2nd coming and the church's gathering together (rapture) in Matthew 24:30-31 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) have never been fulfilled, but must occur "immediately after" the future tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

random person said in post 1:

Matthew 24 is speaking of the coming of God in judgment upon Jerusalem in 70 AD.

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Matthew 24:30 is Christ's coming to judge the world, but it is only the temporal judgment of Revelation 19:11 to 20:3, which will happen before the future millennium of Revelation 20:4-6. Matthew 24:30 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) the eternal judgment of Revelation 20:11-15, which won't happen until sometime after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15).

God doesnt' do temporal judgements, whatever that is, of the world, Rom 2. End of issue.

That is what the scoffers say .... I just heard it

2Peter
3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


Does the Lord agree? ..... Yes


Matthew
24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


And so it will be ......


Jude
1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.


Watch where you walk IP

COMMENTARY ON MATTHEW 24

Matt 24:1-3 -- The Temple, God's dwelling place among mankind for 1500 years, is going to be destroyed. The Age of the Law of Moses will soon end. In 70 AD the Roman armies literally took apart the once-holy Temple stone by stone to get at the gold that had melted down between the cracks from the heat of the fires, and to remove the Jewish headquarters. Temple vessels taken to Rome by Titus (Josephus, Wars, 7:5:5-7). The Jews had at first set fire to the Holy Temple (Josephus, Wars, 6:2:9; 6:3:5; 6:4:5; 6:6:2).

24:4 -- Apostles ask, WHEN WILL THESE THINGS BE? What sign signifies thy coming at end of the Mosaic age? (for this must be discerned by signs)

24:4-5 -- False messianic movements. Dositheus the Samaritan, Simon Magus deified in Rome, Theudas (Acts 5:36-37), Manahem and, under the government of Felix, "deceivers rose up daily in Judea, and persuaded the people to follow them into the wilderness, assuring them that they should there behold conspicuous signs and wonders performed by the ALMIGHTY" (Josephus). Felix, from time to time, apprehended many and put them to death. About this period (A.D. 55) arose another Felix, the celebrated Egyptian impostor, who collected thirty-thousand followers, and persuaded them to accompany him to the Mount of Olives, telling, them that from thence they should see the walls of Jerusalem fall down at his command as a prelude to the capture of the Roman garrison, and to their obtaining the sovereignty of the city. Partial list: Judas, son of Hezekiah (4 BCE); Simon of Peraea (4 BCE); Athronges, the shepherd (4 BCE); Judas, the Galilean (6 CE); The Samaritan prophet (36 CE); King Herod Agrippa (44 CE); Theudas (? CE); The Egyptian prophet (52-58 CE); Menahem, the son of Judas the Galilean (66 CE); John of Gischala (67-70 CE); Vespasian (67 CE); Simon bar Giora (69-70 CE)

Matt 24:6-7 -- Claudius' Roman war with Britain/East Anglia, at least three Jewish insurrections against Rome prior to the 60s AD -- one was violently put down by Cuspius Fadus. The Jewish/Alexandrian revolt upon Caligula's death, Claudius' martial law declared in Palestine after the jewish insurrection at the death of Agrippa I. The Germanic tribes in present-day Belgium and Germany made perpetual trouble for the legions throughout the reign. A smouldering Balkan war was in continuous progress. All this, of course only escalated, and Rome in 68-70 began its own Civil Wars that nearly toppled the empire. As Tacitus wrote, " Four princes [Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Domitian] killed by the sword; three civil wars, several foreign wars; and mostly raging at the same time. Favorable events in the East [the subjection of the Jews], unfortunate ones in the West. Illyria disturbed, Gaul uneasy; Britain conquered and soon relinquished; the nations of Sarmatia and Suevia rising against us; the Parthians excited by the deception of a pseudo-Nero." Acts 11:28 records the worldwide famine. Josephus reports the famine in Jerusalem in the 60s AD which killed hundreds of thousands during the Jewish War (AD 66-70). Accounts of infanticide and cannibalism as foretold in Deuteronomy 28:53,57 -- women cooked and ate their babies (Josephus; Wars 6:3:3-4; Wars 5:1:4). Read more on wars of this time and false prophets -- (Josephus: Antiq. 20:5:1-4; 20:8:5-10; Wars 2:10:1; 2:13:4-7; 6:5:2)

24:9-10 -- persecution of the early church by the Jews and later by Nero as he blames the Christian sect for the burning of Rome. This went on the entire AD 30-66 by the Jews, and Nero's persecution was 3.5 years from 64-68AD. Matthew 24:9-13 is exactly parallel to Matthew 10:16-23 which all scholars assign to a 1st century fulfillment. Also the Jewish Civil War occurred in 66-69AD (Josephus; Wars, 2:17:1-10; 2:18:1-11; 4:6:2-3; 5:1:2-5; 5:6:1; 5:13:6; 6:2:1)

24:11 -- more false prophets. these are mentioned by Josephus as being related to the messianic movment of the seditious Zealots that promised the redemption at the Temple for the rebels, yet the Romans brought total destruction. Believers trapped in the city of Jerusalem endure to the end and are spared.

24:14 -- Gospel to the "oikoumene" -- Roman Empire. Fulfilled rapidly in the apostles' generation -- Col 1:23, Col 1:5-6, Romans 10:14-18, Romans 16:26, 1 Tim 3:16. Early Church Fathers all viewed this passage as fulfilled (See Clement of Rome, Chrysostom, Eusebius) -- gospel went even to Spain and Gaul. The immediate rapid spread of the Christian faith throughout the entire empire was a sign. The "whole world" spoken of in the Bible pertained to the extent of the Roman Empire, and the Bible is consistent on this (compare the "whole world" of Matt 24:14 with the "whole world" of Luke 2:1, Acts 11:28, Acts 2:5, Romans 1:8 and and 2 Chronicles 36:23). The scriptures even used a special greek word in Matt 24:14, OIKOUMENE (strong's #3625), which means the Roman Empire -- the "whole world" (OIKOUMENE) in the scriptures was contextually centered in the area of the Ancient Roman Empire (Luke 2:1). The "whole world" in the scriptures is mapped out by a careful reading of these passages.

24:15-20 -- This famous historic account is recorded in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History , iii.v. -- the Judean remnant saw armies of Cestius Gallus in 66AD (and Vespasian's later) surrounding Jerusalem (compare to Luke 21:20-24). At the same time, The Temple was captured by the Jewish Zealots (2 Thess 2:4-7) that turned the temple into a camp, defiled it with blood, and made evil of their own high priest. During this time the daily sacrifices to Rome were ended, which was a Declaration of War against the Empire. These events signalled the faithful remnant to flee according to our Lord's commands to them. Just after they escaped the city, the Zealots seized the Temple and the city, guarded the gates, and prevented all escape. Eusebius records, "But the members of the Church in Jerusalem, having been commanded before the war in accordance with a certain oracle given by revelation to the men of repute there, to depart from Jerusalem, and to inhabit a certain city of Peraea called Pella, all the believers in Christ in Jerusalem went thither, and when now the saints had abandoned both the royal metropolis itself and the whole land of Judaea, the vengeance of God finally overtook the lawless persecutors of Christ and His apostles." At the end the Romans sacrificed to their standards at the Temple (Josephus, Wars, 4:5:1; 5:1:2,3,5).

Matt. 24: 21-24 -- The Great Tribulation (also Luke 21:20-24). Read Josephus, Wars of the Jews -- entire. The Roman Jewish war is the documented history of the great tribulation. Josephus declares the war with the Romans was "the greatest of all ever heard of" (as Christ said in Matthew 24:21). "Whereas the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that were ever heard of" -- Josephus -- Preface to Wars of the Jews, Section 1 (see also: Wars, 5:10:5). Jesus calls this time the "Days of Vengeance" (Luke 21:20-22; Isaiah 61:2; Matt 23:31-38; Luke 19:40-44; Matt 21:40-22:7), and "wrath and distress to come upon this people" (Luke 21:23 -- see also Josephus, Wars, 2:10:1; 2:22;1; 6:3:3-4; 6:9:2-4; 7:1:1). Lakes of blood and fires (Josephus, Wars, 2:18: 4:5:1; 5:1:2-5; :6:4:6; 6:5:1,2; 6:8:5). Jerusalem divided into three (Rev 16:19 -- see also Wars, 5:1:1,4). Genealogical records destroyed (Josephus, Wars, 6:6:3; 6:9:1). God took the Kingdom away from them (Matt 21:40-45; see also Josephus, Wars, 6:8:4:; 6:9:1,4). Jerusalem called "That Great City" and "Sodom" (Rev 11:8; Rev 18:21-24; -- see also Josephus, Wars, 5:10:5; 5:13:6; 7:8:7). Jews sold into slavery (Luke 21:24 -- see also Josephus, Wars, preface section 11; Wars 6:8:2; 6:9:2-4). City of Jerusalem is leveled (Matt 24:2 and Luke 19:40-44 -- see also Josephus, Wars, 7:1:1; 7:8:7). Jesus warns his generation: "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of gehenna? Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate (Matt 23:33-38).

Matt 24:25 -- Jesus here tells the apostles that these dire events will be experienced by them (also Matt 24:33-34). They will be the generation to see these things that Jesus is describing (and not some distant future generation). Compare Matt 24:25 with similar statments in John 14:28, John 13:19 and John 16:4 that all signal events in the apostles' own near future. Christ always told his apostles things they would need to know beforehand, that it would be to their benefit when the things came to pass before their eyes.

Matt 24:26-28 -- don't fall for the false messianic claims. The true desolation is like lightning over the whole land and, where the carcasses are strewn, there too will be the Roman Eagles (i.e, the infamous Eagle Ensigns of the Roman armies that were planted all over Jerusalem during the Roman Jewish war). The Eagle Ensigns served as a symbol of the Jews' defeat at the hand of their enemies. Most commentators believe this war and passage also was the fulfillment of Moses' predictions in Deuteronomy 28:49 and following verses. All this literally came to pass in 66-70AD. See also: (Josephus, Wars, 4:5:1; 5:1:2,3,5)

Matt 24:29-31 -- Christ speaks of the end signs. This passage is using the apocalyptic language of the great prophets Isaiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, David etc in exactly the same way they used it for God's judgments against nations and individuals in their own times. Compare with God's coming to O.T. Babylon in 539BC (Isa 13:10-13, 13:1, and 13:17), OR God's coming to Edom in 703BC (Isa 34:3-5), OR God's coming to Egypt in 572BC (Ez 32:7-11) OR God's coming to Nineveh in 612BC (Nahum 1). Jesus Christ is now also seen as coming in that same glory of the Father (cf. Matt 16:27; John 17:5). Jesus came to 1st century Israel and demolished it in the same glory of the Father's cloud-comings in the O.T. Age (Isaiah 19:1-2). This passage speaks of Christ's full equality and oneness with Jehovah. The Parousia of Christ is signified by the fall of Jerusalem and the Holy Temple. Many cosmic signs were also witnessed in that period. The angels and glorious light of Christ are witnessed at the temple and around the cities of Jerusalem (Jude 14; Rev 1:7 -- See also Josephus; Wars 6:5:3; 2:22:1-2; 4:4:5; 6:5:2-3 -- also Tacitus and Midrash). The unfaithful jews were gathered from all over the world at Passover Feast in 66AD and they sealed in by the Roman armies. They were now in the furnace of the City and were destroyed (see: Matt 13:40-43, Luke 19:43-44, Matt 23:33-38, Luke 23:28-31). Rabbis call 70AD the "end of biblical judaism." The Church is also gathered and spared God's desolations and wrath. The Church is at this time after the death of the apostles built, established, never to be destroyed. The Church becomes the eternal Temple and Priesthood of God (2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:9). Christianity emerges distinct from Judaism and becomes the universal and one true faith of God. Christ's followers destined to occupy all nations, teaching them to obey Jesus. The teachings of Christ and the apostles are fully and historically vindicated in this historic destruction of Jerusalem.

Matt 24:32-33 -- parable of all the trees (Luke 21:29-31). When trees shoot forth leaves it signals that summer is now near at hand. "So likewise YOU too [the apostles], when YOU shall see all these things know that it is near, even at the door" (see also James 5:8-9; Rev 3:20). In Luke's account Jesus promises the apostles: "So also you, when you see these things come to pass know that the kingdom of God is near at hand" (Lk 21:31).


MATT 24:34 -- VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS UNTIL ALL THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED

Interplanner said:

Jerico,
that's quite a statement. Any normal reading of Mt 24 is that the answer to the 2-3 questions follows. The question was when will the temple/city be flattened?

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The question the disciples asked in verse 3 was when and what are the sign of your coming. There's nothing there about the temple in verse 3. Somehow preterism loves to combine verses 2 & 3 to form one verse and one conclusion, but that's not how the bible was written.

Matthew 24:3 is very simple. The question was, "What and when is the sign of your coming?"

The question is not "When is the temple destroy, what is the sign of your coming?" This is two different topic.

The disciples didn't ask and didn't care to know when the temple would be destroyed, otherwise Jesus would of mentioned how or when the temple was flattened in the rest of the discourse. Does this make sense? But the temple is not mentioned anywhere in Matthew 24:4-51. Not even a single verse throughout Matthew 24:4-51 about the destruction of the temple, not one.

Matthew 24:4-51 is all about when and what are the signs of Christ's return. The parable of the fig tree is the when sign of His return. The birth pangs are the what signs of His return. There is absolutely nothing mentioned about the destruction of the temple throughout the discourse.

Matthew 24:2 and Matthew 24:3 does not belong together. It's two different topics. The bible separated them, we need to understand that to fully understand what the bible said and not draw our own conclusions.

Thanks for spelling my name correctly IP.

Matthew 24:3
As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Additional comment

The Lord's projection in Matthew 24 is all about Israel at the end of this present age by description and by location .... this period is still in front of us and why a remnant part of the nation has been returned to the land in the Middle East

.... and there are still no stones of the buildings of the temple mount including the temple left standing

And there will not be during the tribulation as many think

Jerico Miles said:

Matthew 24:2 and Matthew 24:3 does not belong together. It's two different topics. The bible separated them,

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Rather, Matthew Alone Separates them.
Mark and Luke Combine them:

Mark 13
13 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!

2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,

4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Luke 21
5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

In fact, in Mark's and Luke's accounts, they only ask about the time of the temple's destruction and the signs that would precede it.

At best for your position, Mark and Luke's account show clearly that the apostles held the parousia of Christ as synonymous with the temple's destruction, and their master says nothing in his answer to refute this understanding.

At worst for your position, it Shows that the apostles only asked about the timing of, and signs for, the temple's destruction. They did not ask about His coming at all in Mark and Luke, and all three synoptics must be able to stand alone as true and correct independent of one another, and they must be interpreted to mean the same thing.

Mathew 24 can not have a different meaning than Mark 13 and Luke 21 Have.

Jerico Miles said:

The disciples didn't ask and didn't care to know when the temple would be destroyed,

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Mark 13 & Luke 21 shows that to be blatantly false. In those passages, the temple's destruction is the ONLY thing they ask about.

otherwise Jesus would of mentioned how or when the temple was flattened in the rest of the discourse. Does this make sense? But the temple is not mentioned anywhere in Matthew 24:4-51. Not even a single verse throughout Matthew 24:4-51 about the destruction of the temple, not one.

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False.

COMPARE THIS:

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

TO THIS:

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains;


Both verses are synoptic. Both verses are recordings of the same exact discourse of Christ, and speak of the same event at the same moment in history.

Both of the above passages speak of the Same "When", the Same "Then", the same "Flight from Judea" and the same "Desolation" thereof.

Jericho,
it was indeed the topic of 24A. The signal to leave was when they heard that "he" was in the inner places of the temple.

All the material of 24A is about the 1st century situation in Judea. After v29 it is about worldwide judgement, although this is not necessarily right after the disaster of Israel.

Interplanner said:

Jericho,
it was indeed the topic of 24A. The signal to leave was when they heard that "he" was in the inner places of the temple.

All the material of 24A is about the 1st century situation in Judea. After v29 it is about worldwide judgement, although this is not necessarily right after the disaster of Israel.

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This is not scripture, just more Interpreterism.

parousia70 said:

Rather, Matthew Alone Separates them.
Mark and Luke Combine them:

Mark 13
13 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!

2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,

4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Luke 21
5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

In fact, in Mark's and Luke's accounts, they only ask about the time of the temple's destruction and the signs that would precede it.

At best for your position, Mark and Luke's account show clearly that the apostles held the parousia of Christ as synonymous with the temple's destruction, and their master says nothing in his answer to refute this understanding.

At worst for your position, it Shows that the apostles only asked about the timing of, and signs for, the temple's destruction. They did not ask about His coming at all in Mark and Luke, and all three synoptics must be able to stand alone as true and correct independent of one another, and they must be interpreted to mean the same thing.

Mathew 24 can not have a different meaning than Mark 13 and Luke 21 Have.

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A classic preterist maneuver. If it doesn't fit, just go to another scripture and try to make a case out of something else. What happen to Matthew 24? The title of this thread is on Matthew 24, not Mark 13 or Luke 21.

Paraousia, if I was using your twisted tactics to manipulate the words from the bible, I can make just as good an argument that the Olivet Discourse was never held at the Mount of Olive but rather at the temple by using Luke's version of the discourse and say Luke never mentioned Christ sitting at the Mount of Olive when He and the disciples held their discussion.

Luke 21:5-7
5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Do you see this discussion taking place at the mount of olives? Because Luke omitted it, it does not means the Olivet Discourse took place at the temple.

The same thing can be said of Mark's version. Matthew compared Christ's coming to the days of Noah. Mark did not compared Christ's coming to the days of Noah but as a man going to a far country who left His house giving authority to His servants (Mark 13:34).

Mark used a different comparison. Does this mean Matthew's version of the discourse was wrong? Does it mean Mark's or Luke's was wrong? Of course not. You take all scriptures into consideration and not ignore others.

So from by your intelligence, you think because Mark and Luke left out two words: "Your coming" the entire discourse by all three accounts are about the destruction of the temple.

Read all three discourse. None of them ever spoke about the destruction of the temple, not even one verse. All three wrote about what and when of Christ's coming. Zero info on the temple.

parousia70 said:

Mark 13 & Luke 21 shows that to be blatantly false. In those passages, the temple's destruction is the ONLY thing they ask about.



False.

COMPARE THIS:

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

TO THIS:

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains;


Both verses are synoptic. Both verses are recordings of the same exact discourse of Christ, and speak of the same event at the same moment in history.

Both of the above passages speak of the Same "When", the Same "Then", the same "Flight from Judea" and the same "Desolation" thereof.

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Do you know the difference when the bible is describing the destruction of Jerusalem vs destruction of the temple? Want a hint? It's not the same thing.

I suggest you read verse 20 again a few more times. Do you see the word temple anywhere in verse 20? I sure don't. Here's another question. How can the antichrist commit the abomination of desolation if the temple was destroyed?

So all this about AD 70 is pure nonsense. And you can't even show me just one verse from any of the discourse showing the temple being destroyed.

parousia70 said in post 10:

Matt 24:1-3 -- The Temple, God's dwelling place among mankind for 1500 years, is going to be destroyed.

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Note that the end of the 2nd temple building (also called Herod's temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring only to the single, 2nd temple building which stood in the center of the Temple Mount and which contained the holy place and the most holy place, but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall, and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming, there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

parousia70 said in post 10:

The Age of the Law of Moses will soon end.

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In Matthew 24:3, the original Greek word (aion: G0165) translated as "world" can indeed be translated as "age" (Ephesians 2:7, Colossians 1:26). But note that the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law ended not at the destruction of the 2nd temple in 70 AD, but decades earlier, at the moment Jesus died on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-51a), and abolished the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was the same moment he brought the New Covenant into effect (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:51a). So there was no transition period, no overlap at all (Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 7:12), between the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and the time of the New Covenant.

Also, while the apostles asked Jesus about the end of the age (Matthew 24:3), he didn't tell them that the end of the age would occur at the destruction of the 2nd temple, or (as is sometimes claimed) before the future tribulation, or even at the end of the future tribulation, i.e. at his (post-tribulation) 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31), or when the end of the age would occur, just as Jesus didn't tell the apostles many other things during his ministry (John 16:12). It wouldn't be until much later that Jesus would show the apostle John, through the vision in the book of Revelation (given about 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), that the end of the age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until over 1,000 years after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:15).

parousia70 said in post 10:

[Matthew] 24:15-20

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Regarding the "abomination of desolation", Daniel 11:31 was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV. But per Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:15, the church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the church will see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place (of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15), after they have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will pollute the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically (Matthew 24:15) and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the first (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the first part of it antitypically, and the rest for the first and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by an Iraqi Baathist General completely defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

parousia70 said in post 10:

[Matthew] 24:15-20

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Regarding "Judaea" (Matthew 24:16), note that this doesn't have to mean 1st century AD Judaea. For there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) still today. They contain mostly Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers. The church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the church, both Gentiles and Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist's persecution of the church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up, and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple (at least one time) and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the church will reach every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), so that the basic principle of Matthew 24:16, of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution), would apply to believers around the world.

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different, protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up, they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all the emergency supplies of food, water, warm clothing, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all Biblical Christians that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

parousia70 said in post 10:

[Matthew] 24:15-20

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Regarding Matthew 24:17, the houses in Judaea (southern Israel) still have flat roofs which are used like patios.

parousia70 said in post 10:

[Matthew] 24:15-20

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Matthew 24:19-20 means it will be more difficult for pregnant women and women carrying infants to flee (Matthew 24:16), just as will be more difficult to flee in the winter or on a sabbath. This would apply in cases where those fleeing don't have cars (or gasoline), and so will have to walk a long way to their place of refuge. For walking a long way will be more difficult for pregnant women and women carrying infants, and for anyone at a time of wintry cold and wind, rain, or snow, and for any Christian on the sabbath who believes that to walk a long way on the sabbath is a sin. Also, by the time Matthew 24:15-20 is fulfilled in our future, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Judaea (southern Israel) could have reestablished sabbath police there, who could attack with sticks anyone trying to walk a long way on the sabbath.

Also, the ultra-Orthodox Jews believe it is a sin to even turn on a light switch on the sabbath, as they see this as breaking the commandment not to kindle a fire on the sabbath (Exodus 35:3). So they could similarly forbid people to start a car on the sabbath, as this would be kindling a fire within its combustion engine. Also, the ultra-Orthodox Jews could set up roadblocks to prevent anyone from driving a car anywhere on the sabbath.

parousia70 said in post 10:

Matt. 24: 21-24 -- The Great Tribulation (also Luke 21:20-24).

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When Jesus says "ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies" (Luke 21:20), he is referring to the first part of Daniel 11:31: "And arms shall stand on his part". And when Jesus says "the desolation" in Luke 21:20, he is referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31, just as in Matthew 24:15, he is referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31.

So Luke 21:20-23 isn't referring to 70 AD, nor (as is sometimes claimed) to the pillaging of Jerusalem which will occur at the very end of the future tribulation, right before Jesus' 2nd coming to save Jerusalem (Zechariah 14), but is referring to what will happen mid-tribulation, when the Antichrist will antitypically fulfill Daniel 11:31 at the start of his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), during which 3.5 years, Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles (Revelation 11:2b), which future treading down is what Luke 21:24 is referring to.

parousia70 said in post 10:

Matt. 24: 21-24 -- The Great Tribulation (also Luke 21:20-24).

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Note that Luke 21:24 wasn't fulfilled by Titus's armies in 70 AD, for it refers to the same, future treading down underfoot (i.e. not merely an outside siege) of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal (and never fulfilled) 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18).

That is, the treading down of Jerusalem during the "times" (Greek: kairos: G2540) of the Gentiles in Luke 21:24 refers to what will occur during certain years in our future, the same "times" (kairos: G2540), or years, referred to in Revelation 12:14b, during which the Gentiles will tread down Jerusalem as part of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Similarly, when Paul says "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the tribulation, right before Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Romans 11:26).

parousia70 said in post 10:

Matt. 24: 21-24 -- The Great Tribulation (also Luke 21:20-24).

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Note the "nor ever shall be" part of Matthew 24:21. World War II was worse than 70 AD, even just for the Jews (i.e. the Holocaust). And not even World War II fulfilled the detailed tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which will occur in our future.

Matthew 24:22 and Mark 13:20 can mean that all flesh on the earth would die if the Lord hadn't already shortened, as in "he hath shortened" (Mark 13:20b), the number of days of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. The Lord could have already determined, from the beginning of Creation (cf. Isaiah 46:10), that he will return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). And the Lord will return "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), immediately after its final event, the worldwide destruction during the 7th vial (Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6). So Mark 13:20 can mean that if the Lord hadn't shortened the number of days of the tribulation, then all flesh on the earth would die during the 7th vial's aftermath, which could be a nuclear-winter scenario (which the Lord will miraculously prevent at his return) brought on by the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire nuking the cities of the nations at the 7th vial (Revelation 17:16-17a, Revelation 16:19).

parousia70 said in post 10:

Jerusalem called "That Great City" and "Sodom" (Rev 11:8; Rev 18:21-24 . . .

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Note that while the corrupt aspects of 1st century Jerusalem are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of 1st century Jerusalem. For 1st century Jerusalem just by itself didn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor was 1st century Jerusalem the only place where people bought merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor had 1st century Jerusalem just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor had 1st century Jerusalem been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

In Revelation 11:8, the great city is Jerusalem, where Jesus was crucified. But in Revelation 21:10, the great city is New Jerusalem, which is now in heaven. And in Revelation 14:8, Revelation 17:18, and Revelation 18:10-21, the great city is the symbolic harlot/city of Babylon. When it is destroyed, it will be found no more at all (Revelation 18:21), forever (Revelation 19:3), unlike Jerusalem, which was found again after its only-temporary destruction in 70 AD.

The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the nations (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number six in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [cf. Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

parousia70 said in post 10:

Matt 24:25 -- Jesus here tells the apostles that these dire events will be experienced by them (also Matt 24:33-34).

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Note that while Jesus was originally speaking with the apostles in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, in his mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-5). So the "ye" in Matthew 24 doesn't require that Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the lifetime of the apostles. The "ye" will see "all these things" (Matthew 24:33-34), including the (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30-34). The "ye" must watch (stay awake, spiritually) for the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:42,44).

Similarly, just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has always been relevant to Christians despite the fact that it has never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future, so the highly-detailed and chronological events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18, and the subsequent millennium and other events in Revelation chapters 20 to 22, have always been relevant to Christians despite the fact that they have never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future.

To put it another way, the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), should be relevant to every Christian regardless of whether or not he thinks that he will still be alive to go through it, just as, for example, the past fulfillment of Genesis chapters 1 to 11 should be relevant to every Christian regardless of him not being alive at that time to experience it. For all scripture regarding all times is profitable to all Christians in all times (2 Timothy 3:16).

Also, the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 should be especially relevant to every Christian alive today. For the main reason that the Bible gives clear warning ahead of time about everything that Christians alive at the time of the tribulation will have to face (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), is so that Christians can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and not commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

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On the other hand, preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all be animated by the same spirit of fear: that the church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these 5 views of preterism, historicism, pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the church alive today that it won't have to physically suffer through that tribulation.

Preterism says that the tribulation happened in 70 AD (or a few years before and including 70 AD). Historicism says that it happened over a long period in history (e.g. during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after). Pre-tribulation rapturism says that Jesus will return and rapture the church into the 3rd heaven before the tribulation begins. Symbolicism says that the tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which those in the church have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), and is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some in the church have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says that the tribulation is only spiritual events which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these 5 views have each tried to build up between the church and the tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These 5 views may have left some in the church unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these 5 views could even contribute to some in the church ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the tribulation, when they become "offended" that God is making them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).

Even though the church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the future tribulation, the church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many in the church will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12), and it won't rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

parousia70 said in post 10:

Matt 24:26-28 -- don't fall for the false messianic claims.

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Indeed.

For at his 2nd coming, Jesus will literally be seen in clouds by everyone (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30), just as lightning is literally seen in clouds (Matthew 24:27). His 2nd coming won't be secret (Matthew 24:26-31).

parousia70 said in post 10:

The Eagle Ensigns served as a symbol of the Jews' defeat at the hand of their enemies.

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Matthew 24:28 is referring to a dead body being eaten by literal eagles (Job 39:30b, Revelation 19:21).

parousia70 said in post 10:

Compare with God's coming to O.T. Babylon in 539BC (Isa 13:10-13, 13:1, and 13:17) . . .

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The city of Babylon referred to in Isaiah 13 (verses 1,19) isn't the ancient city of Babylon, just as it isn't the symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" of Revelation. Instead, it is only the present-day, literal city of Babylon (in Iraq), which the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will transform into his world capital during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

In Isaiah 13:3, the "sanctified ones" who "rejoice in [YHWH's] highness" are the obedient people in the church in Revelation 19:7-8, after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be, in Isaiah 13:4-5, the "host of the battle" from "heaven", when they physically descend from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus as he wages war against the world's armies at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:14-21). So in Isaiah 13:6,9, the "day of the Lord" is the same as the future, 2nd-coming day of the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

Isaiah 13:10 refers to the same, future, 2nd-coming time as Matthew 24:29-31.

Isaiah 13:11 refers to Jesus' defeat of the world's armies at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Isaiah 13:16 refers not to what Jesus or the church will do, but to what some unsaved "Medes" (Isaiah 13:17-18) will do to the inhabitants of the city of Babylon at the time of Jesus' 2nd coming. By "Medes" is meant the native inhabitants of that part of the Middle East which in ancient times was called "Media" and is now part of Iraq.

In Isaiah 13:17, the "Medes" aren't the ancient Medes who conquered the ancient city of Babylon (Daniel 5:28,31). For the ancient Medes didn't make the ancient city of Babylon uninhabited (Isaiah 13:19-22) when they defeated it, but instead kept it as a thriving city which continued on for centuries.

In Isaiah 13:19-22, the total and eternal destruction of the city of Babylon has never been fulfilled. For Saddam Hussein rebuilt the city of Babylon (using bricks he inscribed with "built by Saddam Hussein, son of Nebuchadnezzar"). And after his defeat, U.S. forces built a military base in Babylon. And in the future, the Antichrist will transform the city of Babylon into his world capital. Isaiah 13:19-22 won't be fulfilled until this city is destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming.

parousia70 said in post 10:

. . . OR God's coming to Edom in 703BC (Isa 34:3-5) . . .

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Isaiah 34:4 refers to a future event which will affect "all nations" (Isaiah 34:2), the whole world (Isaiah 34:1).

In Isaiah 34:5, "Idumea" (Edom) isn't the ancient nation of Edom (present-day southern Jordan), but represents all the nonelect people of all times throughout the world, just as Paul the apostle employs a reference to the man "Esau" (also called Edom: Genesis 25:30, Genesis 36:1) to represent all the nonelect people of all times throughout the world (Romans 9:11-22). And in Isaiah 34:6, "Bozrah" isn't the ancient city of Bozrah, but represents the corrupt civilizations of the nonelect people of all times throughout the world, just as the "Babylon" which will be destroyed in our future in Revelation chapters 17-18 isn't the literal, ancient city of Babylon (nor the present-day one, in Iraq), but represents the corrupt civilizations of the nonelect people of all times throughout the world.

Isaiah 34 doesn't refer to the destruction of the ancient city of Bozrah. For its territory is in present-day Jordan, and it is still inhabited (it could be the city of Busaira). It is not an eternally-burning land of fire and brimstone which no living person ever passes through and won't ever pass through for all eternity (Isaiah 34:9-10).

Isaiah 34 won't be fulfilled until the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), when the present surface of the earth and its atmosphere (the 1st heaven) will pass away (Revelation 20:11). And all the nonelect people of all times throughout the world will be judged and cast into the eternal lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:15,10, Revelation 21:8, Revelation 14:10-11).

parousia70 said in post 10:

. . . OR God's coming to Egypt in 572BC (Ez 32:7-11) . . .

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Ezekiel 32:7 refers to a literal cloud covering the sun as part of God "setting darkness upon thy land" (Ezekiel 32:8) as a punishment, just as the literal darkness in Exodus 10:22-23 was a punishment.

parousia70 said in post 10:

Jesus came to 1st century Israel and demolished it in the same glory of the Father's cloud-comings in the O.T. Age (Isaiah 19:1-2).

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Isaiah 19 hasn't been fulfilled yet. For Isaiah 19:5,17-25 has never happened, but will happen during the future millennium, when the physically returned Jesus will bring judgments on Egypt for its refusal, at first, to come up to worship him in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:16-21). Jesus travelling on a cloud in the sky in Isaiah 19:1 can be literal and physical, just as Jesus ascending into a cloud in the sky in Acts 1:9 was literal and physical.

parousia70 said in post 10:

They were now in the furnace of the City and were destroyed (see: Matt 13:40-43 . . .

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Regarding the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30,36-43), in Matthew 13:38 the good seed are the elect and the tares are the nonelect, the human children of Satan, who can't ever believe in Jesus (John 8:42-47). Matthew 13:40-42 refers to the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-14), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), when the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). In Matthew 13:43, the kingdom of the Father is after the great white throne judgment, when a new earth (a new surface of the earth) will be created, and God the Father will descend from heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3).

parousia70 said in post 10:

Matt 24:32-33 -- parable of all the trees (Luke 21:29-31).

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Note that in Luke 21:29, the original Greek word (pas: G3956) translated as "all" doesn't have to mean absolutely all, but can mean "all manner of" (Acts 10:12). And, indeed, all trees aren't deciduous, so that Luke 21:30 wouldn't apply to absolutely all trees. Also, in prophecy, various trees can represent nations (Ezekiel 31), so that Luke 21:29 can refer to the nations (including Israel) which gained or regained independence after World War II. Also, "these things" in Luke 21:31 include the never-fulfilled, worldwide events of Luke 21:25,26,35, which must occur right before Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming (Luke 21:27, Matthew 24:29-31) and his establishment on the earth of the physical aspect of God's kingdom during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

parousia70 said in post 10:

. . . see also James 5:8-9

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The holy scripture of James 5:8-9 must be understood from the viewpoint of God, not of any man (2 Peter 3:8-9; 2 Peter 1:20-21), because Jesus' 2nd coming has never happened.

Jesus will return "in like manner" as he ascended (Acts 1:11b), in that just as at the end of his first coming he was seen by literal eyes to ascend physically from the Mount of Olives into a literal cloud and on into heaven (Acts 1:9,12, cf. Luke 24:39), so at his 2nd coming he will be seen in literal clouds by literal eyes (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30) to physically descend from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-21).

parousia70 said in post 10:

MATT 24:34 -- VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS UNTIL ALL THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED

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Amen.

But note that Matthew 24:34 refers to the fulfillment of "all these things", all the events of the tribulation, and Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church "immediately after" the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which he would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean the tribulation, 2nd coming, and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' first coming, for none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.

Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34; cf. Matthew 21:19,43, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

This doesn't require that the 2nd coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the 2nd coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the tribulation's first year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021 or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

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The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just a Jesus' cursing of the literal, fruitless fig tree (Matthew 21:19) foreshadowed his curse on the part of Old Covenant Israel which rejected him (Matthew 21:43), for a fig tree can represent Israel (Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9). The Israel which was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel which Jesus cursed at his first coming. For it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel which was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman-empire army.

But Jesus' kingdom is still called "Israel" (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).