Allowing evil to those who follow God

The accuser asks continually whether we are but fair weather followers of God. I get the impression God is proud of those who depite their suffering praise Him for there is no comfort in any other.

Jacob2658 said:

If god allows evil in this world in order for us to have free will, why does he allow evil to those who follow him abundantly?

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First of all God does not allow evil in order for us to have free will. It is the reverse. It is because men and angels have free will that evil has come into this world.

As to all the terrible things which happen to those who love and serve God, they are to be considered as a "refiner's furnace". Gold is found in ore, and before the pure gold can become useful, it must pass through a fire and great heat. That separates the gold from the dross. Thus our faith is tested through the furnace of affliction. Study the book of Job for a deeper insight into this issue.

Jacob2658 said:

Im not exactly sure if this is the correct forum to ask this question, but it did seem like a good place to start. I am not asking this question to debate the existence of God but rather to understand him more.

I understand this question may get asked a lot but it does have strong significance to me. When I was 19 I lost my mother to cancer. Not only did I loose her, I had become the primary caretaker in what was a extremely painful and agonizing 5 year battle. It's not that no one would step into the role or my mother necessarily allowed it, I just felt I needed to be the one to be at her side since she had been such a foundation for me in my life.

My mother was a very strong woman of God and always had just the right words to say in order to make you understand just why things happened the way they did. She had a way of speaking to people that would make them best friends only in a few moments of knowing each other. Till her last breath she would minister to every single person who came into her hospital room to visit her when she was sick. It didn't matter if it was a janitor, or a doctor. She found a way to minister to them and affect their lives. I understand that may be a bit long winded but I can talk for days on what an amazing woman my mother was. More importantly what an amazing woman of God she was.

So my question is this:

If god allows evil in this world in order for us to have free will, why does he allow evil to those who follow him abundantly?


Thank you for taking the time to read my post and I certainly look forward to any thoughts you may be willing to share with me. God bless.

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James 1 makes it clear that God doesn't bring about evil for any reason. That is the exclusive domain of the devil.

A second place to look is Isa. 54:9-10. This was originally written as a prophesy. That was about 2600 years ago. The New Covenant is fully established and this prophesy has been fulfilled.

The idea of Isa 54:9-10 is that God promises a covenant of kindness and peace. This is no longer an event waiting to happen but is now fully in force. This situation lasts only til the end of the church age.

THE first question for us to decide is always: will you trust God? It is the subtle question behind the serpent's question to Eve: "Has God said...?" as Eve had NOT heard God command regarding the tree. The serpent was in fact first dividing that which God put together: Eve and Adam (actually this gets even more rococo as Eve was actually divided from Adam by God before being reunited to Adam by the word of ADAM; but to go on here would be diversionary).

Anyway, the point being that the first thing the serpent was doing was introducing doubt as to what God said. This is still the favorite starting point of Satan; now it sounds like this: is the Bible the inerrant, sufficient and understandable Word of God?

You must settle that question first. Will you trust the very exhaled breath of God, the Bible?

If you do, the Bible clearly says that ALL things work together for the benefit of the elect. Therefore anything that appears "evil" is not. It is merely a tool for the refining of the elect into an even more glorious state as Job8 alluded to. I suppose with a handle like Job8 we all ought to listen to him about the pain of the elect.

This is why God's answer to Job-1 was to display His Power and Wisdom. Notice the apparent disconnect. Job asks "Why are you doing this to me?" and the answer is "I am God, you have not the wisdom to ask. Shut up and adore Me." This would SEEM to be a rather uncomforting even cruel answer from God. In some ways it seems close to the answer one would get from the followers of the demon known as Allah. Yet Job is comforted by that answer. He shuts up and repents. He acknowledges he did not sufficiently trust God. That whole book runs counter to our "me first" western thought pattersn, wherre God "exists" for our benefit. Yes, the fact that God IS, is to our benefit. We would not even exist if God is not. As in the typical upside down, inside out, die to live paradoxical nature of Truth, it is only by accepting that God owes us nothing, and is morally right to punish EVEN THE ELECT, that we then find that God has given us everything and NEVER PUNISHES THE ELECT, but rather disciplines the elect for their own benefit. Weird: because God IS not for our benefit, God began to exist around 6BC (the incarnation) precisely for our benefit. So God is not for our benefit, rather He exists to our benefit in the person of Christ. Weird, very weird and such a lovely rococco Thought! Yet again I divert from the question...

There are other responses to your question, my own personal favorite is that evil does not exist. I like it because I am like a "shock jock" for fundies: I love freaking people out by stating Truth in an unusual way. The first guy who CLEARLY explained that evil does not exist was Augustine of Hippo, but again this is diversionary.

Whatever response to your excellent question is, it must begin with the answer to: did God really say? This of course regresses to: is He really God? Which is another way of asking: what are the attributes of God? Where you, for example, to ask this question of Allah you get a very different response, as Allah is free to lie, change it's mind (I am not aware if Allah has a gender). Of course that is because Allah is another name for a demon, and they are liars.

So first question on the table: is the Bible inerrant? If it is not, then all truth is relative and no question has a definitive answer.

JR

JR. I believe that evil does not really exist. The Bible says "God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all." Light exists. Darkness does not exist. Darkness is simply the absence of Light. Life exists. Death does not exist. Death is simply the absence of Life. Dark is no thing. Therefore, it is nothing. Life is a thing. Death is the absence of Life, which is a thing, therefore, Death is no thing.... it is nothing.

All goodness comes from God. Evil is the chaos and confusion that ensues when God's goodness is withdrawn. God is under no obligation to bestow His goodness. It is an act of grace. That is how Lucifer sinned. God withdrew His good influence from Lucifer and so Lucifer fell into chaos and non-goodness.

Now, like I said, sin is the absense of God's goodness, and just as darkness doesn't really exist, sin doesn't really exist .... it is just the absence of God's light and goodness. So here is the point.... Since sin doesn't really exist... the penalty for sin doesn't really exist. The wages of sin is death... and death is simply the absense of Life. The penalty for something that doesn't exist (sin) is non-existence (death)

The reward for something that exists ( God's goodness in our lives through Christ) is something that exists ( Life ) the penalty for something that doesn't exist (sin) is something that doesn't exist (death) Death is non-Life and non-life isn't really a thing.

Of course this is one of the many reasons I believe that Saved people go to heaven and unsaved people are annihilated. I think that Jesus teaches "do not fear those who can kill the body but afterwards can do nothing more ... fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

Of course, it is true that when a human takes pleasure that he wasn't entitled to ... he has to give it back..( that is called pain) So all of the non- Christians that have taken pleasures they had no right to take... when they are thrown into hell have to give all those pleasures back and that will be painful... so there will be suffering before they are annihilated.

I won't argue any of this stuff ... I can answer every single arguement against it using scripture in context.... and I can answer every single verse... However, this isn't the forum to do that on so I won't likely answer any comments. Besides, if you are convinced that your unsaved friends and loved ones are going to be tortured in the most intense agony imaginable forever and ever that is your business not mine. Have a great day people.

We'll agree to disagree on the doctrine.

1- The Biblical doctrine I find most odious and distasteful is tha there is an everlasting Hell for anyone, let alone the majority of humanity.

2- I stand by the doctrine and could give not only a Biblical but even a solid defense from the other 2 sources of revelation God provides: nature and inner mental reasoning (philosophy).

3- I do agree that this is not the forum to discuss it. I have no time at present to engage anyone as I have been drafted outside this site for a macroevolutionary debate. Plus, I am closing in on 1 million free coins in "Plants vs Zombies 2".... one must have an orderly set of priorities,

JR

Jacob2658 said:

Im not exactly sure if this is the correct forum to ask this question, but it did seem like a good place to start. I am not asking this question to debate the existence of God but rather to understand him more.

I understand this question may get asked a lot but it does have strong significance to me. When I was 19 I lost my mother to cancer. Not only did I loose her, I had become the primary caretaker in what was a extremely painful and agonizing 5 year battle. It's not that no one would step into the role or my mother necessarily allowed it, I just felt I needed to be the one to be at her side since she had been such a foundation for me in my life.

My mother was a very strong woman of God and always had just the right words to say in order to make you understand just why things happened the way they did. She had a way of speaking to people that would make them best friends only in a few moments of knowing each other. Till her last breath she would minister to every single person who came into her hospital room to visit her when she was sick. It didn't matter if it was a janitor, or a doctor. She found a way to minister to them and affect their lives. I understand that may be a bit long winded but I can talk for days on what an amazing woman my mother was. More importantly what an amazing woman of God she was.

So my question is this:

If god allows evil in this world in order for us to have free will, why does he allow evil to those who follow him abundantly?


Thank you for taking the time to read my post and I certainly look forward to any thoughts you may be willing to share with me. God bless.

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Jacob2658,


I am so sorry for the loss of your mother and the compounding of the pain because she was such a woman of God. Suffering is one of the thorny subjects and life’s consequences that has caused much consternation for Christians and confounding for seekers. There is no satisfactory answer for your question since the answer must satisfy the degree of loss that you feel and I am afraid that the opinion that I give will not even come close.


The Westminster Shorter Catechism states that “man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy Him forever.” Your mother has done one and is in the center of the other. She glorified God in this life and she is presently enjoying Him in an eternal existence. The main accusation that the evil one made against God when God asked him to consider His servant Job was that God treated Job with such kindness and care that Job would never turn his back on God. But God knew that Job love Him because of who He was and not because of what goodness God had allowed Job to enjoy in life. The book of Job is the narrative of the struggle of a man who loved God and glorified Him because He is God. Your mother demonstrated the same love for God that Job did.


If God held evil at bay from those who follow Him, Satan’s argument would be true. I don’t want my children to love me because of the comforts that I can provide for them, I want them to love me because I love them. This is the same relationship that God wants with us; He loved us first and sent His son to die for us. Christ was good (without sin) and yet He suffered an extreme amount of pain but the end result was to be reunited with the Father for eternity. God sent Christ to earth so as to reunite humankind with Himself. He succeed with your mother. I pray for your healing and comfort.

JR. I believe that evil does not really exist.

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How did you arrive at this conclusion when the Bible makes it crystal clear that evil does exist and evil will also be eradicated eventually?

Job8 said:

How did you arrive at this conclusion when the Bible makes it crystal clear that evil does exist and evil will also be eradicated eventually?

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Evil exists in the same way that darkness exists. Have you ever seen darkness? When you look into space do you see darkness? There isn't anything there to see. (except stars) So you don't see anything. What you are seeing is nothing. Darkness is nothing. If it is nothing then it doesn't exist. Darkness is just the absence of light. Darkness is the absence of something (light) It is the absence of everything. If you remove everything from an area of space then you have nothing. When you look at that nothing you "see" darkness. But you aren't really seeing anything because nothing is there.

In the scripture sin is called darkness. Like darkness, sin is the absence of good. When we remove goodness from a person that person is not good. To be a person who is not good is to be a person who is evil.

So evil is just the absence of good. Goodness is an actual thing. Evil is simply the lack of goodness.

All goodness comes from God. It is an unmerited benefit. God isn't obligated to bestow His gift of goodness to any creature. God removed his gift of goodness from Lucifer. So without goodness Lucifer was evil. Evil is just a lack or absence of God's goodness. Regarding goodness Jesus said "without Me you can do NOTHING". Paul said " there is none that doeth good, no not one" Men have no goodness in them apart from God. In one sense evil exists just as in one sense darkness exists. But darkness isn't anything but the absense of God's light. And evil isn't anything but the absence of God's goodness. So evil doesn't exist in the strict meaning of the word exist.

Since goodness is a real thing it will be rewarded with a real thing... Life. Life is existence. (among other things) Since evil isn't a real thing but is only the absense of a real thing (therefore it is nothing) it will be rewarded with the absense of a real thing (life). The absense of Life is death. Death is not a real thing but is only the absence of Life. Death is nothingness. Nothingness does not exist. Only something can exist.

So here is the formula

Goodness (a real thing) brings Life (a real thing)
Evil (simply the absence of Goodness) brings death (simply the absence of Life)

Finally evil (the absence of God's goodness in people) will be eradicated when all sinners receive death (the absence of God's Life) and thus are annihilated in Hell. (Dead) In your understanding evil will never be eradicatied. So now I must turn the question on you. How will evil be eradicated if the those who are evil never perish?

Have fun.

Jacob2658 said:

Im not exactly sure if this is the correct forum to ask this question, but it did seem like a good place to start. I am not asking this question to debate the existence of God but rather to understand him more.

I understand this question may get asked a lot but it does have strong significance to me. When I was 19 I lost my mother to cancer. Not only did I loose her, I had become the primary caretaker in what was a extremely painful and agonizing 5 year battle. It's not that no one would step into the role or my mother necessarily allowed it, I just felt I needed to be the one to be at her side since she had been such a foundation for me in my life.

My mother was a very strong woman of God and always had just the right words to say in order to make you understand just why things happened the way they did. She had a way of speaking to people that would make them best friends only in a few moments of knowing each other. Till her last breath she would minister to every single person who came into her hospital room to visit her when she was sick. It didn't matter if it was a janitor, or a doctor. She found a way to minister to them and affect their lives. I understand that may be a bit long winded but I can talk for days on what an amazing woman my mother was. More importantly what an amazing woman of God she was.

So my question is this:

If god allows evil in this world in order for us to have free will, why does he allow evil to those who follow him abundantly?


Thank you for taking the time to read my post and I certainly look forward to any thoughts you may be willing to share with me. God bless.

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First of all, God has gifted man with free will and some men have chosen to do evil works knowingly. Instilled in every man is sense of morality whether they would admit this or not.

Secondly, I don't think you know what evil is because you are equating evil to what you have written about, and it's not.

God has made it perfectly clear in the scriptures, which he spoke through the prophets by the power of the Holy Ghost saying that as long as you live a clean life and do exactly what He wants you to do, you are then included in His protective grace. Which basically means you are then protected from all opposing forces.

Jacob2658 said:

So my question is this:

If god allows evil in this world in order for us to have free will, why does he allow evil to those who follow him abundantly?


Thank you for taking the time to read my post and I certainly look forward to any thoughts you may be willing to share with me. God bless.

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Hi jacob,

I can tell that you miss your mother very much and that her loss is a very deep hurt to you. However, I'm curious why you consider that your mother dying is evil? We all die. Is that, in itself, an evil thing? If so, then all of us will experience evil in our lives and it doesn't seem to make any difference whether you are a child of God or not, if that's what you define as evil.

Me, I had a sister who died at the ripe old age of 16. She had lived and battled cystic fibrosis all of her life. As she got older she could never do anything strenuous and even got to the point that she could hardly walk 50 feet without having to sit and get her breath. When she died she was panting and gasping for air. It was painful to watch and I'm sure even more painful for her to live. Her death was a blessing. You feel pain because of her death, as well you should, but it may well be that to her, her death was a blessing. It seems to me that God's blessing for those who are suffering, is often death. Maybe it's not evil at all, but a blessing.

What I do know is that God asks us to give thanks to Him in all circumstances of life.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

JLR1300 said:

Evil exists in the same way that darkness exists. Have you ever seen darkness? When you look into space do you see darkness? There isn't anything there to see. (except stars) So you don't see anything. What you are seeing is nothing. Darkness is nothing. If it is nothing then it doesn't exist. Darkness is just the absence of light. Darkness is the absence of something (light) It is the absence of everything. If you remove everything from an area of space then you have nothing. When you look at that nothing you "see" darkness. But you aren't really seeing anything because nothing is there.

In the scripture sin is called darkness. Like darkness, sin is the absence of good. When we remove goodness from a person that person is not good. To be a person who is not good is to be a person who is evil.

So evil is just the absence of good. Goodness is an actual thing. Evil is simply the lack of goodness.

All goodness comes from God. It is an unmerited benefit. God isn't obligated to bestow His gift of goodness to any creature. God removed his gift of goodness from Lucifer. So without goodness Lucifer was evil. Evil is just a lack or absence of God's goodness. Regarding goodness Jesus said "without Me you can do NOTHING". Paul said " there is none that doeth good, no not one" Men have no goodness in them apart from God. In one sense evil exists just as in one sense darkness exists. But darkness isn't anything but the absense of God's light. And evil isn't anything but the absence of God's goodness. So evil doesn't exist in the strict meaning of the word exist.

Since goodness is a real thing it will be rewarded with a real thing... Life. Life is existence. (among other things) Since evil isn't a real thing but is only the absense of a real thing (therefore it is nothing) it will be rewarded with the absense of a real thing (life). The absense of Life is death. Death is not a real thing but is only the absence of Life. Death is nothingness. Nothingness does not exist. Only something can exist.

So here is the formula

Goodness (a real thing) brings Life (a real thing)
Evil (simply the absence of Goodness) brings death (simply the absence of Life)

Finally evil (the absence of God's goodness in people) will be eradicated when all sinners receive death (the absence of God's Life) and thus are annihilated in Hell. (Dead) In your understanding evil will never be eradicatied. So now I must turn the question on you. How will evil be eradicated if the those who are evil never perish?

Have fun.

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Wha?

JLR1300 said:

Evil exists in the same way that darkness exists. Have you ever seen darkness? When you look into space do you see darkness? There isn't anything there to see. (except stars) So you don't see anything. What you are seeing is nothing. Darkness is nothing. If it is nothing then it doesn't exist. Darkness is just the absence of light. Darkness is the absence of something (light) It is the absence of everything. If you remove everything from an area of space then you have nothing. When you look at that nothing you "see" darkness. But you aren't really seeing anything because nothing is there.

In the scripture sin is called darkness. Like darkness, sin is the absence of good. When we remove goodness from a person that person is not good. To be a person who is not good is to be a person who is evil.

So evil is just the absence of good. Goodness is an actual thing. Evil is simply the lack of goodness.

All goodness comes from God. It is an unmerited benefit. God isn't obligated to bestow His gift of goodness to any creature. God removed his gift of goodness from Lucifer. So without goodness Lucifer was evil. Evil is just a lack or absence of God's goodness. Regarding goodness Jesus said "without Me you can do NOTHING". Paul said " there is none that doeth good, no not one" Men have no goodness in them apart from God. In one sense evil exists just as in one sense darkness exists. But darkness isn't anything but the absense of God's light. And evil isn't anything but the absence of God's goodness. So evil doesn't exist in the strict meaning of the word exist.

Since goodness is a real thing it will be rewarded with a real thing... Life. Life is existence. (among other things) Since evil isn't a real thing but is only the absense of a real thing (therefore it is nothing) it will be rewarded with the absense of a real thing (life). The absense of Life is death. Death is not a real thing but is only the absence of Life. Death is nothingness. Nothingness does not exist. Only something can exist.

So here is the formula

Goodness (a real thing) brings Life (a real thing)
Evil (simply the absence of Goodness) brings death (simply the absence of Life)

Finally evil (the absence of God's goodness in people) will be eradicated when all sinners receive death (the absence of God's Life) and thus are annihilated in Hell. (Dead) In your understanding evil will never be eradicatied. So now I must turn the question on you. How will evil be eradicated if the those who are evil never perish?

Have fun.

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Does the idea of God testing us fit into this view?