The harlot of Babylon - Article

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The Woman = Jerusalem





The most compelling evidence that the woman is Jerusalem is that scripture says it's where Jesus was crucified! (Revelation 11:8). Compare Jerusalem before her Judgment: (Revelation 11:8) and after Her Judgment (Revelation 21:10).



There are two Jerusalem's. One was the literal, fleshly type of the true, spiritual Jerusalem. One was the Zion of Israel - the abode or rallying point of God's chosen nation, the other was the true Zion - the Abode of God and by extension the spiritual Home/Abode of His people where they are written and their spirits assemble before Him in awe and worship.



Jerusalem was once the Beautiful City of God, but now she has become a den of devils and full of idolatries and filthy abominations. God is going to judge Her and give her name to the spiritually faithful - those from both the nation of Israel and the heathen nations. Thus will His "Jerusalem" and His "Zion" be pure.



God also uses the term "this great city" to refer to Jerusalem in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 22:6-9).



The Woman has killed the Saints - the Prophets, Apostles, and Jesus (Revelation 11:8; 17:6; 18: 20,24).

Jerusalem has killed the Saints - the Prophets, Apostles, and Jesus (Matthew 23:29-36; Luke 6:22-23, 26; 11:47-52; 13:28,33-34; Acts 2:23,36; 3:15; 4:10; 5:30; 7:51-52; Romans 11:2-5; 1 Corinthians 2:7-8; 1 Thessalonians 2:14-15, James 5:10).



Mt. Zion & Jerusalem are the Capital City for the Saints (Hebrews 12:18,22-24).

Heaven is The Country for Saints: (Philippians 3:20, Hebrews 11:13-16, Galatians 4:24-26, Psalm 48:2; 74:2; 76:2; 87:5, Matthew 5:34-35).



The "Dragon" was the source of power and authority for the Beast (also referred to as the serpent, the Devil, and Satan at Revelation 12:9, 20:2). Were the Romans ever called "children of the devil"? The Jews were: (John 8:44; Acts 13:10; 1 John 3:10)! The Jews were also called "serpents" and "offspring of vipers" (Matthew 23:33)! And that same verse (Matthew 23:33) condemns them to a fiery end similar to the end of the Beast and his followers (Revelation 19:19-21)!



The 7 Mountains (Revelation 17:9) refer to Jerusalem, not Rome. The seven mountains upon which Jerusalem was built are Mount Zion, Mount Ophel, Mount Moriah, Mount Bezetha, Mount Acra, Mount Gareb, and Mount Goath.



Some might ask, "If the 'harlot' is Jerusalem, how could the 'beast' be Nero Caesar, from Rome? Would not the "beast" be someone who rules over Jerusalem? The answer is that Caesar DID rule over Jerusalem. The highest religious authorities in Jerusalem, and all the Jews living in Jerusalem, even admitted that Caesar is their king (John 19:15).






Revelation 11:8





Let's look at the term "Sodom." John wrote that this is a "figurative" name. That means it does not tell us the actual name of the city, but it's spiritual condition. Once more, in letting the Bible interpret itself, we find this is a reference to Jerusalem. In Isaiah, chapter 1, after declaring that he had a "vision…concerning Judah and Jerusalem" (verse 1), Isaiah wrote, "Hear the words of the Lord, you rulers of Sodom…" In Jeremiah 23:14, because of the adulterous prophets, God said that Jerusalem and her inhabitants had "become to Me like Sodom."



But what about "Egypt?" No where in the Bible is Jerusalem called Egypt. However, that the first century generation was also in an exodus. While Old Testament Israel's exodus was from the bondage of Egypt, the New Testament Israel's exodus was from the bondage of the Old Covenant Law. The most recognizable passage that depicts this "new exodus" is found in I Corinthians 10:1-11. Paul wrote, "And all these things happened to those [as] examples, and was written for our warning; to whom the ends of the ages have arrived." His contextual foundation for this statement was the Old Testament exodus from Egyptian bondage. He wrote that they had passed through the sea (verse 1). They ate manna and drank from the rock (verse's 3-4). He then relays how they wandered in the wilderness (verse 5), became idolaters (verse 7), tried the Lord and were destroyed by serpents (verse 9). This shows us that, just like the "type and shadow" of the Old Testament and their deliverance from bondage, the New Testament saints were undergoing the same exodus. The only difference was that Paul's generation was the reality to which the Old Testament example pointed.



Furthermore, in Luke 13:33-34, Jesus said, "[T]oday and tomorrow, and on the following [day], I must travel on, because it is not possible [for] a prophet to perish outside Jerusalem. Jerusalem! Jerusalem! The [one] killing the prophets, and stoning those having been sent to her." Then, in Matthew 23:29-37, Jesus blasted the Jews of His day for killing the prophets and the apostles. He declared that they are the children of their fathers who also killed the prophets. Then in verse 32, Jesus said that they would complete the sin that their fathers started. But the most crucial evidence is found in verse 35, where Jesus said, "upon you (i.e., the Jews of His day) may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on the earth." Then He said, "I tell you the truth, all of these things will happen to you people who are living now. Jerusalem, Jerusalem! You kill the prophets and stone to death those who are sent to you" (verse's 36-37). In both passages, Jesus told the Jews of His day that they were guilty of "all the righteous blood shed upon the earth" (see also Acts 7:51-52).






Notice of Divorce




In Jeremiah 31:32, God said he was “an husband” to Israel. In Jeremiah 3:8-14 and Isaiah 50:1, God states that he was married to Israel, and gave Israel a bill of divorcement, because Israel committed adultery. This occured around 721 B.C.



Jesus said, "It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: (Deuteronomy 24:1) But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery." (Matthew 5:31-32).

God said that the only Just reason for divorcing your wife was "on the ground of unfaithfulness." Also, that a "written notice of divorce" must be given. Would God not abide by His own laws? Prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, God served Israel her divorce papers. And this allowed for a new bride.





Revelation 21:2, "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

When was the Old Jerusalem destroyed? 70AD. So when should the "new Jerusalem" have been established? 70AD. Aren't the followers of Christ now the "bride" of Christ? Yes. In 721 B.C., God divorced Himself from the adulterous, harlot wife and gave to His Son a new Bride in 70 A.D.! That's Us!


To read complete article click here - The harlot Of Babylon
 

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According to Jesus, can God remarry an adulterous secular state of Israel? And can God divorce a faithful church in order to remarry a divorced national Israel?

"It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: (Deuteronomy 24:1) But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery." Matthew 5:31-32
 
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Straightshot

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Two "great cities"

One of the Gentiles [Revelation 17:16-18; 18:1-21], and one of the Lord's [Revelation 11:2-15]

Not the same .... the first destroyed and no rising

The second left standing and eternal

Both a part of MBG [the entire lost world of humanity]

The Lord destroys the first, and then restores the second for His purposes
 
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Two "great cities"

One of the Gentiles [Revelation 17:16-18; 18:1-21, and one of the Lord's [Revelation 11:2-15

Not the same .... the first destroyed and no rising

The second left standing and eternal

Both a part of MBG [the entire lost world of humanity]

Incorrect, two Jerusalems. One that is physical Jerusalem here on earth, the other one that is from above.
 
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No so according to the scriptures .... both on the earth

The first eliminated .... the second restored and then made eternal .... on the earth [Revelation 21]

Revelation 21 is a beautiful passage but the heaven and earth spoken in it is not our physical world and the cosmos, it is speaking about the covenantal heaven and earth of the Old Covenant.

If the new heaven and new earth has been established, why is there still a sea? (Revelation 21:1).

Answer:

The most common mistakes made when reading the scriptures is the language of the bible and what it means; or rather, what it meant 1900 years ago, because the bible was written for us but not to us. We must understand what a sea is. Lets look at this verse:



1Kings 7:23-25,39, "And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other; it was round all about, and his height was five cubits; and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about. And under the brim of it round about there were knops compassing it, ten in a cubit, compassing the sea round about...and he put five bases on the right side of the house, and five on the left side of the house: and he set the on the right side of the house eastward over against the south."



Also confer 2 Kings:16:17; 25:13,16; 2 Chronicles 4:2,4,6,15; Jeremiah 27:19. Now by looking at these scriptures we can see what the authors' intent was in Revelation 21:1 when he said there will no more sea. In God's old covenant with man, the high priest once a year went into the holy of holies for the peoples atonement (Lev.16:34), but before he went in he must first wash in the sea to cleanse himself before entering into the temple. But now Jesus is our high priest forever and thus there is no more sea.



"Sea" also means "gentiles" in Isaiah 60:1-5, and "nations" in Psalms 68:22, Daniel 7:3. Also, "far off" in Psalms 65:5 is how Paul describes the Gentiles in Ephesians 2:13. Zechariah 9:9-10 refers to sea as part of the world. Isaiah 24:14 refers to enemies. Revelation 17:15 explains seas as well.


Answers to Common Questions about Preterism
 
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random person said in post 1:

Jerusalem has killed the Saints - the Prophets, Apostles, and Jesus (Matthew 23:29-36 . . .

Regarding the symbolic "Babylon" in Revelation chapters 17-18, Matthew 23:35-37 could mean that at the time Jesus spoke Matthew 23:35, in God's eyes Jerusalem was, as it were, the "crowning city" (cf. Isaiah 23:8) of mankind's corrupt religions, one leg of the corrupt world-system represented by Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 18:24). Today in God's eyes, Jerusalem may again be the "crowning city" of mankind's corrupt religions, as it is held sacred by 3 different religions (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam), 2 of which are the largest in the world (Christianity and Islam).

But Revelation's symbolic "Babylon", in its entirety, represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

The corrupt world-system represented by Revelation's "Babylon" may currently be headquartered in Washington DC and New York City, insofar as Washington DC may currently be "the crowning city" (cf. Isaiah 23:8) of mankind's corrupt politics, the first leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 17:18). And New York City may currently be "the crowning city" of mankind's corrupt economics, the 2nd leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 18:11). "The crowning city" of mankind's corrupt religions, the 3rd leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 18:24), (again) may currently be Jerusalem, as it was back in the 1st century AD (Matthew 23:35-38). Ultimately, all 3 legs of Revelation's "Babylon" will become headquartered in the literal, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq), which the Antichrist, during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), will make the capital of the world, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Tyre was "the crowning city" of mankind's corrupt economics at one point in ancient times (Isaiah 23:8). God allowed the destruction of ancient Tyre as a lesson, an example, "to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth" (Isaiah 23:9). In the same way, would God allow the future destruction of Washington DC and New York City by terrorist nuclear bombs, as a lesson, an example, "to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth"?

Also, the Bible teaches that, without repentance, what is sown is reaped (Galatians 6:7). And 2 nuclear bombs (developed in the "Manhattan" Project) were sown by the U.S. against 2 major cities in Japan (Hiroshima and Nagasaki) in order to terrorize Japan into surrender during World War II. So could the U.S. in the future reap 2 terrorist nuclear bombs against 2 of its own major cities (including Manhattan)? Could the U.S. avoid this fate by publicly repenting before God and asking him and Japan for forgiveness for the U.S. intentionally targeting and murdering 150,000 innocent civilian men, women, and children living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Could the 9/11 terrorists being allowed by God to intentionally target and murder 3,000 innocent civilian men, women, and children in New York City's Twin Towers and elsewhere in the U.S. have been just a warning to the U.S., a mere shot across its bow, to try to get the U.S. to repent for what it did to the 2 cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? But could the U.S. continue to refuse to repent for its nuclear terrorism against Japan, leaving the way open for nuclear terrorism against the U.S.?

Also, a "restrainer" must be taken out of the way before the Antichrist can come into worldwide power (2 Thessalonians 2:6-9, Revelation 13:4-18). This restrainer could be a powerful angel like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:1-3). It could be Michael the archangel, the angelic prince over Israel (Daniel 12:1, Daniel 10:21,13). Michael could also currently be the angelic prince over the U.S., making sure that it supports Israel. Part of Michael's being taken out of the way, just enough to allow the Antichrist to come into worldwide power, could be God removing Michael's protection of the U.S. just enough to allow Washington DC and New York City to be nuked by terrorists. This could weaken the U.S. not only by the destruction of its political and economic capitals, but also by the subsequent run on the U.S. dollar which could occur, rendering it close to worthless in world markets. The U.S. government could then finally go bankrupt, unable to finance any longer its huge debt, economy, and military. Its days as a superpower (but not as a nation) will be over, opening the way for the Antichrist to come into worldwide power (Revelation 13:4-18).

If Washington DC and New York City are attacked with nuclear bombs, will this really be the work of terrorists, such as Islamic jihadis? Or could it be a "false flag" operation, one presented to the world as an Islamic-jihadi attack, when in fact it will have been carefully stage-managed from behind the scenes by a powerful cabal, a worldwide secret society of Gnostic Luciferians, as part of their careful, step-by-step plan to prepare the way for the Antichrist (who is a Gnostic Luciferian: 1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4) to take over the world?

For example, could the Gnostic Luciferian cabal secretly equip some Islamic-jihadi group in Pakistan with 2 nukes and the means to get them into the U.S. and detonate them in New York City and Washington DC? For example, could the 2 nukes be secretly built in North Korea, secretly sold to Iran, secretly delivered to Iran via a plane crossing China, secretly handed off by Iran to the cabal's Islamic-jihadi group in Pakistan, secretly boated over to Thailand, and then secretly brought into the U.S. via 2 shipping containers from Thailand into the Port Newark, New Jersey Container Terminal? And could the 2 shipping containers have been lined with enough lead so as to thwart any radiation-detectors at the Terminal? And could these shipping containers have been filled mostly with tile, kitty litter, or bananas, which give off a natural radiation, so that if the containers are opened and inspected by hand for radiation, it will be thought that the radiation is just from the tile, kitty litter, or bananas, and not from nuclear bombs packed inside lead sarcophagi hidden in the center of the containers?

Could both containers in this way get past U.S. inspection? (And could the Gnostic Luciferian cabal also be careful to have its own "moles" or hand-picked and extremely-well bribed and blackmailed inspectors on duty when the containers are passing through U.S. inspection, to make sure that the containers don't get scanned by x-rays, or if they do, that any automatic alarms are disabled and that no other inspectors are present?) And after passing inspection, could one of the containers be trucked to a Newark warehouse, where the nuke will be extracted and placed into a smaller, lead-lined, tile-filled delivery truck, which will then be driven into the very heart of Manhattan, where the nuke will be detonated at a pre-arranged time? And could the other container be trucked to an Alexandria, Virginia warehouse, where the nuke will be extracted and placed into a large SUV? Could the SUV then be driven to a small, local airport in northwestern Maryland, where the nuke will be loaded in the dead of night onto a private jet? Could the jet then be flown low, under radar, down the Potomac, into the very heart of Washington DC, where the nuke will be detonated at the same time as the one in Manhattan?

(And even besides this, could a 3rd, nuke-containing shipping container from Thailand end up in a vast shipping-container lot in the Port of Long Beach, California, right next to Los Angeles? And could the Gnostic Luciferian cabal not even bother to have the nuke extracted and driven into or flown over downtown Los Angeles, but simply have the nuke detonated right there in Long Beach harbor (at the same time as the one in Manhattan), so that it completely destroys the major west coast port of the U.S., and wipes out much of hugely-populated Los Angeles and Orange Counties? And could the Gnostic Luciferian cabal's puppet-"Islamic terrorists" claim that they nuked Los Angeles because it contains Hollywood, and contains the San Fernando Valley, a center for inappropriate contentographic video production, so that Los Angeles has contributed greatly to the corrupt entertainment culture which dominates the world today, even in Islamic countries behind closed doors?)

Regarding Jerusalem getting destroyed, at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will attack and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including a 3rd Jewish temple (which will be built) and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) being completely broken down so that not one stone will be left upon another throughout the city (Luke 19:44). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem in righteousness and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4), during his literal, 1,000-year physical reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).
 
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The Woman = Jerusalem

Note that while the corrupt aspects of 1st century Jerusalem are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of 1st century Jerusalem. For 1st century Jerusalem just by itself didn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor was 1st century Jerusalem the only place where people bought merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor had 1st century Jerusalem just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor had 1st century Jerusalem been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

In Revelation 11:8, the great city is Jerusalem, where Jesus was crucified. But in Revelation 21:10, the great city is New Jerusalem, which is now in heaven. And in Revelation 14:8, Revelation 17:18, and Revelation 18:10-21, the great city is the symbolic harlot/city of Babylon. When it is destroyed, it will be found no more at all (Revelation 18:21), forever (Revelation 19:3), unlike Jerusalem, which was found again after its only-temporary destruction in 70 AD.

The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the nations (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number six in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [cf. Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).
 
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The great harlot is Moscow which sits on seven hills and many waters (thanks to the Moscow Canal that connects five seas). And Soviet-era Moscow ruled over many peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. Moscow was also drunk with the blood of saints, and was briefly aligned with Hitler the antichrist. And Moscow was the mother of other harlots, meaning atheist nations.
 
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Straightshot

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"The great harlot is Moscow"


Making up stories serves no good purpose on a Bible forum, and in fact makes a mockery of the same in front others

.... but I guess some have nothing else better to do

As I review the few Bible forums that are around today the trend is to post more and more of this sort of thing .... another indicator of the Lord's soon coming intervention

He will not always tarry and His patience is running thin

There is a way that leads to eternal life, and few will find it .... a narrow gate through which few will pass .... His words .... not mine
 
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The most compelling evidence that the woman is Jerusalem is that scripture says it's where Jesus was crucified! (Revelation 11:8). Compare Jerusalem before her Judgment: (Revelation 11:8) and after Her Judgment (Revelation 21:10).

This is the only single solitary verse that seems to indicate that Jerusalem is “The Great City.” All of the other many verses indicate that “The Great City” was Rome. So I would say that the many verses that relate this phrase to Rome is the most compelling preponderance of evidence and not the one lone solitary verse. You cannot hang a doctrine on one verse and simply ignore all of the rest.

This particular verse cannot be interpreted any other way...

Revelation 17:18 (NASB)
18 "The woman (or harlot) whom you saw is the great city, (Rome) which reigns over the kings of the earth."

Whenever did Jerusalem reign over the Kings of the earth? Never – God had put them under the control and occupation of four succeeding gentile kingdoms throughout their history. They seldom ruled over themselves let alone other kingdoms. They had just finally drove the Syrians out of Jerusalem when who rode into town a few generations later – the Roman General Pompey.

God also uses the term "this great city" to refer to Jerusalem in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 22:6-9)

That is not hard to explain – Rome did not exist in Jeremiah's day. Jerusalem at the time of Jeremiah was probably the largest city in that area at that time.

The Woman has killed the Saints - the Prophets, Apostles, and Jesus (Revelation 11:8; 17:6; 18: 20,24).

Nero killed far more people of God than the Jews ever did. Nero killed about 5,000 Christians including Paul and Peter – two of the main leaders of the Way.

Jerusalem has killed the Saints - the Prophets, Apostles, and Jesus (Matthew 23:29-36; Luke 6:22-23, 26; 11:47-52; 13:28,33-34; Acts 2:23,36; 3:15; 4:10; 5:30; 7:51-52; Romans 11:2-5; 1 Corinthians 2:7-8; 1 Thessalonians 2:14-15, James 5:10).

Yes they did but the Romans killd them in great numbers compared to the Jews.

The "Dragon" was the source of power and authority for the Beast (also referred to as the serpent, the Devil, and Satan at Revelation 12:9, 20:2). Were the Romans ever called "children of the devil"? The Jews were: (John 8:44; Acts 13:10; 1 John 3:10)! The Jews were also called "serpents" and "offspring of vipers" (Matthew 23:33)! And that same verse (Matthew 23:33) condemns them to a fiery end similar to the end of the Beast and his followers (Revelation 19:19-21)!

The Romans were certainly tagged as children of the devil but not in those exact terms.


The 7 Mountains (Revelation 17:9) refer to Jerusalem, not Rome. The seven mountains upon which Jerusalem was built are Mount Zion, Mount Ophel, Mount Moriah, Mount Bezetha, Mount Acra, Mount Gareb, and Mount Goath.

Not true - The city built on seven hills was historically recognized as Rome. All seven hills were occupied and were a part of the city. There are many references to this in history. According to Josephus Jerusalem was a city built on three hills – not seven. But then in the second century BC Simon the Hasmonian totally destroyed mt Zion and cut it down to bedrock. It was afterward known as the lower city. So remove Mt Zion from your list as it was way long gone in John's time. Your list is easily constructed – Jerusalem was built in a range of mountains so to get seven you just keep counting until you get up to seven – then stop. “Was built on” means their were houses and buildings on them. Josephus said that in his day the city was only built on two hills. You can't make up “facts” to suit your doctrines.


Some might ask, "If the 'harlot' is Jerusalem, how could the 'beast' be Nero Caesar, from Rome? Would not the "beast" be someone who rules over Jerusalem? The answer is that Caesar DID rule over Jerusalem. The highest religious authorities in Jerusalem, and all the Jews living in Jerusalem, even admitted that Caesar is their king (John 19:15).

Yes and Jesus died in this ruleing city of Rome. It was the Romans that put Jesus to death. He died under the final authority of Rome. Which is probably the answer to Revelation 11:8.

Let's look at the term "Sodom." John wrote that this is a "figurative" name. That means it does not tell us the actual name of the city, but it's spiritual condition. Once more, in letting the Bible interpret itself, we find this is a reference to Jerusalem. In Isaiah, chapter 1, after declaring that he had a "vision…concerning Judah and Jerusalem" (verse 1), Isaiah wrote, "Hear the words of the Lord, you rulers of Sodom…" In Jeremiah 23:14, because of the adulterous prophets, God said that Jerusalem and her inhabitants had "become to Me like Sodom."

Again this was a completely different time. It is not possible that this term could apply to Rome as it did not exist. You are confused in your chronology.

When was the Old Jerusalem destroyed? 70AD. So when should the "new Jerusalem" have been established? 70AD. Aren't the followers of Christ now the "bride" of Christ? Yes. In 721 B.C., God divorced Himself from the adulterous, harlot wife and gave to His Son a new Bride in 70 A.D.! That's Us!

The Old Covenant was decommissioned forever – just like Hebrews said – it was about to pass away. And it did just six short years later. The Shekinah Glory of God left the Temple forever on Nissan 8th 66AD. Tiat was the end.

And no - all Christians are not the Bride of Christ. Only the over comers are the bride of Christ. Those who are not over comers but are very indifferent to the faith are blessed by being invited to attend the wedding.
 
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Codger said in post 14:

The city built on seven hills was historically recognized as Rome.

In Revelation 17:9, the 7 mountains (or hills) which support Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" can indeed be the 7 hills of Rome. For at the time of John the apostle in the 1st century AD, the Roman empire was the chief support for what Revelation's "Babylon" represents: all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). At the same time, in Revelation 17:9 the 7 mountains can also represent 7 empires (Revelation 17:10). For an empire can be referred to symbolically as a mountain (Jeremiah 51:24-25, Daniel 2:35,44), and what Revelation's "Babylon" represents has been supported by 7 empires: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam.

The first 5 had fallen by the time of John the apostle in the 1st century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The 6th (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The 7th (possibly Islam) had not come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, 8th head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of the 5 empires which had fallen by the time of John (Revelation 17:8,10,11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Before the 2nd coming, when the world is brought into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, and so reinstitute the system which Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.
 
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Codger said in post 14:

The Old Covenant was decommissioned forever – just like Hebrews said – it was about to pass away.

Hebrews 8:13 means that when the prophet Jeremiah in the 6th century BC prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34 about the 1st century AD making of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6), which wouldn't be according to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Jeremiah 31:32, Romans 7:6), Jeremiah's prophecy, as soon as it was made, had immediately made the letter of the Mosaic-law covenant "old" and headed inexorably toward a future extinction (Hebrews 7:18-19). This extinction occurred not in 70 AD, but decades earlier, at the moment Jesus died on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-51a), and abolished the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was the same moment he brought the New Covenant into effect (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:51a). So there was no transition period, no overlap at all (Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 7:12), between the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and the time of the New Covenant.
 
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Codger

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In Revelation 17:9, the 7 mountains (or hills) which support Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" can indeed be the 7 hills of Rome. For at the time of John the apostle in the 1st century AD, the Roman empire was the chief support for what Revelation's "Babylon" represents: all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). At the same time, in Revelation 17:9 the 7 mountains can also represent 7 empires (Revelation 17:10). For an empire can be referred to symbolically as a mountain (Jeremiah 51:24-25, Daniel 2:35,44), and what Revelation's "Babylon" represents has been supported by 7 empires: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam.

The first 5 had fallen by the time of John the apostle in the 1st century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The 6th (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The 7th (possibly Islam) had not come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, 8th head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of the 5 empires which had fallen by the time of John (Revelation 17:8,10,11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Before the 2nd coming, when the world is brought into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, and so reinstitute the system which Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.

I'm still waiting for you to show us from scripture where the authority for your sensational beliefs in "Antichrist" are found. You cannot do this of course as the Futurist movement have simple done what they always do "Cherry Pick" with no regard for the context of the book. I'm waiting. Show us or stop propagating this false doctrine. There is never any interpretation of anything you write - only "Proof Texts" and this long DTS based story.
 
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Hebrews 8:13 means that when the prophet Jeremiah in the 6th century BC prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34 about the 1st century AD making of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6), which wouldn't be according to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Jeremiah 31:32, Romans 7:6), Jeremiah's prophecy, as soon as it was made, had immediately made the letter of the Mosaic-law covenant "old" and headed inexorably toward a future extinction (Hebrews 7:18-19). This extinction occurred not in 70 AD, but decades earlier, at the moment Jesus died on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-51a), and abolished the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was the same moment he brought the New Covenant into effect (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:51a). So there was no transition period, no overlap at all (Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 7:12), between the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and the time of the New Covenant.

When was Hebrews written? It was written in 52AD long after the crucifixion. Hebrews says...

Hebrews 8:13 (NASB)
13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete (The Old Covenant) and growing old is ready to disappear.

It was just eight years later that this passage came to pass. So in 52AD the Old Covenant had not yet disappeared had it? But its demise began in 66AD when the Shekinah Glory left the Temple. Because this was the restrainer and soon after it left - the war began with Rome. And so the Old Covenant closed forever in 70AD.

You are wrong again. God gave Israel 40 years to repent and make the transition from the Old to the New Covenant. The two covenants overlapped by 40 years. I am including the time of the war. God gave Israel exactly 40 years to the day to repent. The tribulation in Israel was severe under the Zealots who were killing anyone who opposed them - but the great tribulation began with the siege of Titus. From the Crucifixion of Passover 30AD to the siege of Titus at Passover of 70AD is exactly 40 years. God had evangelized Judea and surrounding areas all of that time and finally he upped the pressure on the Jews in an attempt to bring them to their senses. However they would not - because of the great delusion that Giod had sent them. They were deluded into thinking that God would come and rescue them if the war began - and so THEY boldly began it.

And so the two covenants overlapped by 40 years in order for the people of God to receive the Gospel and transition from the Old to the New Covenant. The destruction of Jerusalem was also the method that God used to break the hardness of the Jews as they had become very anti Christian and hardened to the Gospel. It was God's last ditch effort to save them.
 
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Straightshot:
the NT is perfectly consistent that the New Jerusalem is never on this earth. It is on the NHNE. However, it is best not to think of it as being in the same category as the Jerusalem of the middle east anyway. Because, for true believers, it is just above and over us, right now, millions of past believers praising God and urging us to stay faithful. Not the same category at all.
 
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Codger said in post 18:

However they would not - because of the great delusion that God had sent them.

Regarding "the great delusion", are you thinking of 2 Thessalonians 2:11?

If so, note that the Antichrist will have a False Prophet who will work amazing miracles (2 Thessalonians 2:9b) by which people will be deceived (Revelation 13:12-14, Revelation 19:20, cf. Matthew 24:24). And God will send strong delusion on unrepentant people so that they will believe "the" lie (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12; in the original Greek, there is a "the" before "lie"), which could be the antichrist lie which has been around since the 1st century AD (2 John 1:7; 1 John 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:7a), and which in our future will deceive the world into consciously and openly worshipping both Lucifer (Satan) the dragon and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the man of sin (2 Thessalonians 2:3-9), as God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). The antichrist lie denies that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), and denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7), which denial is one of the key doctrines of Gnosticism.

But Christians need to be aware that during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), even though the world will consciously and openly worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), this won't require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will say that Jesus is evil, or will turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, he isn't the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing that he is the Christ and the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the gospel by which people become saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this wouldn't require that the Antichrist deny Jesus' 2nd coming. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of Jesus' 2nd coming, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says that the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. For the False Prophet could claim that he is Jesus returned. And he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). This is one reason why it is important to know when and how the real Jesus' 2nd coming will happen (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

The person whom the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who commanded people to commit genocide and kill babies (1 Samuel 15:3), whereas Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)". The truth is that Jesus confirmed that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31), and that the Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). Jesus died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (Isaiah 53; 1 Peter 2:24). And he rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (e.g. Psalms 16:10, Acts 2:31). Jesus died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of Satan (Hebrews 2:14), which YHWH had foretold from even the first book of the Old Testament (Genesis 3:15).

Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH, and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). Satan may be worshipped not as "Satan", which most everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could falsely say that it is YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind.

Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because they will bring the unsaved world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) instead (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), they could falsely say that (the non-mortal flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5).

But the truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12) and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18). Jesus Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus Christ identified himself with only the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28). And in John 10:34, Jesus Christ (John 20:31) was quoting YHWH in Psalms 82:6-7, which shows that even though humans have knowledge of good and evil as gods do (Genesis 3:22), they will still die like humans (Psalms 82:7), contradicting the serpent's lie (Genesis 3:4). Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say that Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (cf. John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24), returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine "Son" of Lucifer, who must be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as YHWH God (the Son) along with YHWH God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).

Near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before the real Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:20 to 20:3).
 
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