Israel vs the Church

Historically, there has been two main theories regarding the Church's relationship to Israel. In replacement theology, the Church replaces Israel such that Israel has no redemptive future. In separation theology (an aspect of dispensationalism), while God has a future for Israel, there is a distinction between Israel and the Church that is preserved throughout all time, with no overlap of the two.
Is it possible that both of these popular positions have been wrong? Is there a middle ground of truth?


Proper and Improper Distinctions
In discussing the Church and Israel, the first thing to realize is that the Bible rarely makes a parallel distinction between national Israel and the Church (possible exceptions being Matthew 23:39 and Romans 11:26). Biblically, Israel is a nation, not a spiritual entity. As a nation of people (like any other nation of people), it contains both saved and unsaved. When the Bible speaks of Israel as a spiritual entity (the saved of Israel), it is referring to remnant Israel (which forces us to ask, "Is there a distinction between remnant Israel and the Church?"--a question we will address shortly).

This passage is often used to justify a parallel distinction between Israel and the Church, but that is not what the passage is doing or saying. The immediate context shows that "Jews" refers to unsaved Jews, "Greeks" to unsaved Greeks, and the "church of God" to the saved (whether Jew or Greek). Therefore, the passage is consistent with the rest of the Bible in that it makes a parallel distinction between (1) Jew and Gentile, and between (2) the saved and the unsaved. Also consistent with the rest of Scripture, it does not make a parallel distinction between national Israel and the Church--which would be a category error.

Why then do people want to replace national Israel with the Church or separate Israel and the Church? The problem is threefold. First, people usually equate "Church" with Gentiles, even though both Jews and Gentiles make up the Church (Ephesians 3:6). The second problem is that people often equate "Israel" with Jews. That, too, is against the Scriptures. Gentile believers become citizens of Israel (Ephesians 2:12, 19). The third problem is that people usually do not bother to make the necessary distinction between national Israel and remnant Israel, even though the Bible clearly makes that distinction (Romans 9:6-8, 11:1-7).

The situation is not as black and white as people have made it. There are gray areas that need to be explored and understood. "Church" does not mean Gentiles only. "Israel" does not always mean Jews only. And there is a significant theological difference between national Israel and remnant Israel.


What is the Church?
The Church is the assembly of people, whether Jew or Gentile, who have been called out of the world to form the spiritual Body of Christ (Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18; 1 Corinthians 12:13). Those in the Church come together by the Spirit and through the Messiah. They are said to be "in Christ" (Romans 8:1; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 1:13).

The Church is Jews who have been physically called out of the nations, but also spiritually called out from unbelieving Israel, and Gentiles who have been spiritually called out of the nations to worship the God of Israel.
Both spiritually called-out peoples form one called-out people known as the Church. These called-out ones are saved by faith in the pattern of their spiritual father, Abraham (Romans 4:11). Thus, while only some in the Church are physically Jewish, all in the Church are spiritually Jewish. They are circumcised of the heart (Romans 2:29), the offspring of Abraham (Romans 4:16) and citizens of Israel (Ephesians 2:12, 19).


What is Israel?
Israel can mean several things. First, it often denotes national Israel--the nation whose citizens are physical descendants of Jacob/Israel. Second, it can mean those physical descendants of Jacob who have not responded to the call of God (Romans 9:31, 11:7). Third, it can mean those Jews (the remnant) who have trusted in the promises of God.
Being a physical descendant of Abraham, while it does bring an advantage (Romans 3:1-2), does not mean one is automatically a spiritual descendant of Abraham (Romans 2:28-29; John 8:39; Matthew 3:9). "Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel." A person can be part of national Israel, and yet not be part of remnant Israel. There is an Israel within Israel, a subset of physical-and-spiritual Jewish people (remnant Israel) among the group of physically Jewish people (national Israel).

When Gentiles become spiritual descendants of Abraham through faith in Jesus Christ, they become part of this subset also, part of remnant Israel. That believing Gentiles are placed within remnant Israel is clearly shown by Paul's illustration of the olive tree. The Olive Tree
To understand this complex passage, it will be helpful to analyze its terms.
(1) Holy Firstfruits/Root. While some consider Abraham the holy firstfruits/root that makes the whole batch and the branches holy, it is more likely that Jesus holds this position. In Pauline theology and throughout God's Word, the Messiah is the only person who can make others holy (Isaiah 53:2-6; Romans 5:18-19, 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Ephesians 5:26; Philippians 3:9; esp. Hebrews 2:11, 11:39-40).

Further evidence is found in Romans 9:3-4. "For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel." Paul likens separation from Christ as being "cut off" from Him, language consistent with the olive tree metaphor and Christ as its root.

(2) Wild Olive Shoot. This is a reference to an individual Gentile. A shoot is a young, tender sprout, an undeveloped branch.

(3) Natural Branches. This is a reference to Jewish believers. A Jewish believer is a natural branch, whereas a Gentile believer is a wild olive shoot.

(4) Olive Tree. Non-believing Jews are not part of the olive tree. They have been broken off. Therefore, national Israel must not be in view as the olive tree. But the olive tree must represent some aspect of Israel, because, for Jewish believers, it is their own olive tree.
The olive tree represents remnant Israel. This idea is highly supported by the context of the passage. Previously, Paul has mentioned true Israel (9:6), the remnant of Israel (9:27, 11:5), the elect of Israel (11:7).

Continued


Remnant Israel = the Church
The olive tree represents remnant Israel, but does it also represent the Church? The olive tree is a group of Jews and Gentiles made holy by the Messiah. That is also an accurate description of the Church (Ephesians 3:6). With the olive tree metaphor, Paul was writing to Gentile believers (Romans 11:13), members of the Church. And yet, the context of the olive tree metaphor was not the Church per se. In Romans, Paul's first use of ekklesia comes in Chapter 16 (vv. 1, 5, 23), where it refers to local assemblies, not the entire body of believers. The context of the olive tree metaphor is remnant Israel (Romans 11:5, 7)--"their [Jewish people's] own olive tree" (11:24).
If Paul had confined his olive tree illustration to include Jewish people only, remnant Israel might have been something separate from the Church, or something placed within the Church. Since Gentile believers are grafted into the olive tree, however, it is clear that remnant Israel is not confined to physical Jews only, but rather, contains the same redeemed peoples who are members of the Church.
Paul's olive tree metaphor is similar to his human body metaphor (Romans 12:4-5; 1 Corinthians 12:12ff). The fact that he uses the two metaphors so close to one another (Romans 11 and 12) shows he is speaking about the same group of people in both. In the body metaphor, the Messiah is the head that gives direction to the rest of the body. Similarly, in the olive tree metaphor, the tree gets its sustenance and origin from the Messiah. In both metaphors, the membership is both Jew and Gentile. For the one: Jewish and Gentile body parts; for the other: Jewish branches and Gentile shoots.
A third metaphor is the spiritual temple spoken of by both Paul and Peter (Ephesians 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:4-6). Here, the Messiah is the chief cornerstone and the redeemed peoples (Jew and Gentile) are living stones who form a spiritual building. All three metaphors--olive tree, human body, spiritual temple--speak of one and the same group of redeemed Jews and Gentiles. This group can be referred to as the Church, the Assembly, the Congregation, the Body of Messiah, the Body of Christ, God's household--which Gentile believers are no longer alien to (1 Timothy 3:15; Ephesians 2:19), or remnant Israel--which Gentile believers are grafted into (Romans 11:17).


The Church: New and Not New
The Church is new. In the New Covenant Scriptures, the first mention of the Church is found in Matthew 16:18, where Jesus spoke of building His Church. Thus, the Church is a new undertaking, specifically because it is the Messiah's congregation that He would build on the basis of His atoning death and resurrection. Like Moses who brought the ekklesia (the Israelites) out of Egypt physically, the Messiah would bring His ekklesia out of the world spiritually, to form a spiritual assembly that included both Jews and Gentiles.
The Church is also new regarding the New Covenant's promise of the indwelling Spirit (Ezekiel 36:24-26; Jeremiah 31:31-33). The mystery aspect of the Church was that non-Jews would also receive the Spirit and be placed within the same body (with believing Jews) through the Spirit (Acts 10:45, 15:8; Ephesians 2:19-3:6). This was a mystery because the New Covenant and the advent of the Spirit had been promised only for the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jeremiah 31:31), not for Gentiles. Thus, it was hidden in the Old Testament, sparingly, such as in the covenant given to Abraham, whose seed (Messiah) would be a blessing to all nations.
But the Church is not new. The Church is not new because it is simply remnant Israel. Some people claim that Paul's olive tree is the Church, others claim it is Israel. Seeing it as remnant Israel solves the dilemma. The olive tree is remnant Israel and it is the Church, because the Church is remnant Israel. Further support for this comes from Peter's speech in Acts 3. While speaking to Jewish non-believers, he stated that Jesus was a fulfillment of Mosaic prophecy:
When a Jewish person believed in Jesus and was born of the Spirit, he became a member of the Church, the Body of Christ. However, if a Jewish person did not believe in Jesus, he would be "cut off" (the same language used in Paul's olive tree illustration) from among the Jewish people. This shows that not only Paul, but Peter also, saw the Church as being equivalent to remnant Israel.
The fact that the Church is remnant Israel is evidenced by the name of the eternal home of believers (the New Jerusalem), by the gates of that home (the names of the twelve tribes of Israel), by the pillars of that home (the twelve Israelite apostles of Jesus), and by the Person seated on the throne of that home (Jesus, the King of Israel, Himself an Israelite).
Because the Church is remnant Israel, Paul--certainly a member of the Church--could say that since he was a believer in Jesus, he was part of remnant Israel (Romans 11:1-5). Because the Church is remnant Israel, Paul could say that Gentile believers in Jesus have been grafted into remnant Israel (Romans 11:17). Because the Church is remnant Israel, both Paul and Peter could say that Jews who didn't accept Jesus would be cut off from Israel (Romans 11:17; Acts 3:23). Because the Church is remnant Israel, Paul could say that Gentile believers are no longer "excluded from citizenship in Israel" and no longer "foreigners to the covenants of the promise" (Ephesians 2:12). Because the Church is remnant Israel, Paul could say that Gentile believers "are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household" (Ephesians 2:19).
These truths would make no sense if the Church were a totally new enterprise, completely separate from or replacing remnant Israel.

Conclusion
For a long time there has been an improper distinction between Israel and the Church. This error has been happened for two reasons: (1) People have rightly noticed the Bible's distinction between Jew and Gentile, but then they erred in thinking that Israel equals Jew and Church equals Gentile. Both Israel and the Church contain both Jews and Gentiles, and the distinction between Jew and Gentile is not equivalent to a distinction between Israel and the Church.
(2) When speaking of the distinction between the Church and Israel, people have failed to make the necessary distinction between national Israel and remnant Israel. Remnant Israel is a spiritual body, national Israel is not.
Gentile believers are grafted into remnant Israel, whose holy root is the Messiah. Gentile believers have taken the place of Jews who have not believed, but Gentiles as a whole have not replaced Jews as a whole. Only part of Israel has been hardened (Romans 11:25). And God is able to graft Jews back into remnant Israel/the Church when they believe (Romans 11:23).
The proper understanding of Israel and the Church is not replacement theology nor separation theology. The Church has not replaced national Israel. National Israel never was a spiritual body of people, but merely a nation of saved and unsaved, like others nations. And God has a future program of prophecy to fulfill for that nation. Neither has the Church replaced remnant Israel. Paul considered himself part of remnant Israel (Romans 11:1-5), part of Christ (Romans 9:3), and part of the Church (Ephesians 5:29-30). This shows that the Church, the Body of Christ and remnant Israel are synonymous. Therefore, the Church is not separate from remnant Israel. The Church is remnant Israel. Through faith in Christ, Gentile believers are no longer excluded from citizenship in Israel, nor from the covenants of the promise (Ephesians 2:12). They have been grafted into the Church, an olive tree natural to Jewish people but unnatural to Gentiles. It is for this reason that Paul exhorts his Gentile readership not to be arrogant about their membership within the Church (Romans 11:20).

Remnant Theology

n2thelight said:

The proper understanding of Israel and the Church is not replacement theology nor separation theology. The Church has not replaced national Israel. National Israel never was a spiritual body of people, but merely a nation of saved and unsaved, like others nations. And God has a future program of prophecy to fulfill for that nation. Neither has the Church replaced remnant Israel. Paul considered himself part of remnant Israel (Romans 11:1-5), part of Christ (Romans 9:3), and part of the Church (Ephesians 5:29-30). This shows that the Church, the Body of Christ and remnant Israel are synonymous. Therefore, the Church is not separate from remnant Israel. The Church is remnant Israel. Through faith in Christ, Gentile believers are no longer excluded from citizenship in Israel, nor from the covenants of the promise (Ephesians 2:12). They have been grafted into the Church, an olive tree natural to Jewish people but unnatural to Gentiles. It is for this reason that Paul exhorts his Gentile readership not to be arrogant about their membership within the Church (Romans 11:20).

Remnant Theology

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That which I bolded and italicized, is the problem with your statement.

Romans 11:2-5:
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.”
4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.
Notice this specific part of the opening has ONLY to do with NATIONAL ISRAEL!!!

The qualifier is the very next two verses...Romans 11:6, 7:
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

This refers to those saved in NATIONAL ISRAEL (as Paul was writing this), along with every Jew that has been saved...are the remnant of national Israel.

This is the problem in what you assert. Paul set the table as He opened this discussion, because he makes it clear what the remnant is as He used the situation Elijah found himself in in 1 Kings 19. Just as Elijah thought he alone was faithful to God, God had reserved 7,000 out of all Israel.

The point Paul makes in Romans 11...is the church and Israel are ONE! They are "The Israel of God"...all are Spiritual descendants of Abraham.

You MUST remember this argument started in Romans 9!!!

In rebuttal I offer this brief, concise article on the matter, rather than write it in my own words:
True Israel of God | Bibleinfo.com

The church is the remnant that can be titled "Israel" but is not the ethnos. There are passages where OT lines about Israel are quoted and meant to include all believers.

Interplanner said:

The church is the remnant that can be titled "Israel" but is not the ethnos. There are passages where OT lines about Israel are quoted and meant to include all believers.

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Inter, the church isn't even close to being a remnant...please explain your thought...

My conclusion is based on Romans 11 which is Paul's summary of Israel and the church.

His conclusion is they are ONE OLIVE TREE which has been grafted together. This is whay there's not two peoples of God!

The only people of God are ALL who are saved!

*There is no gospel to the Jew, and another gospel to the Gentile!

*There is no plan for the Jew and another plan for the Gentile.

There is only "The Israel of God" composed of Jews and Gentiles!

ebedmelech said:

My conclusion is based on Romans 11 which is Paul's summary of Israel and the church.

His conclusion is they are ONE OLIVE TREE which has been grafted together. This is whay there's not two peoples of God!

The only people of God are ALL who are saved!

*There is no gospel to the Jew, and another gospel to the Gentile!

*There is no plan for the Jew and another plan for the Gentile.

There is only "The Israel of God" composed of Jews and Gentiles!

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Do they not make up the Church?

Election is not about salvation, rather it is the issue of service and or agency.

Romans 9-11 are not about "the Church," rather, they are, on the one hand, the issue of access to blessing, at the same, on the other hand, the issue of who is now that channel or agency through which said blessing was to flow.

Israel was temporarily cast away as to access as a nation, as well as, as to being that nation through which said blessing would now be flowing through.

But that is temporary for the gifts given that nation as to said calling - the adoption, and the covenants, and the Law, and all the rest of it ARE... WITHOUT... REPENTANCE..."

n2thelight said:

Do they not make up the Church?

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Not the issue though. The issue is you said the church is the remnant...they are NOT!

The remnant are those saved of national Israel, which Romans 11:1-5:
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.”
4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.

The understanding has to be what a remnant is. What do you think it is???

Danoh said:

Election is not about salvation, rather it is the issue of service and or agency.

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I have no idea where you get such thinking...NO ONE is saved who is not ELECT!

Romans 8:33:
33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;

This is the word study of elect by Blue Letter Bible:
Greek Lexicon :: G1588 (NASB)

This is Vine's Expository Dictionary on "elect":
Dictionaries :: Choice, Choose, Chosen

May you never make that assertion again!

Danoh said:

Romans 9-11 are not about "the Church," rather, they are, on the one hand, the issue of access to blessing, at the same, on the other hand, the issue of who is now that channel or agency through which said blessing was to flow.

Israel was temporarily cast away as to access as a nation, as well as, as to being that nation through which said blessing would now be flowing through.

But that is temporary for the gifts given that nation as to said calling - the adoption, and the covenants, and the Law, and all the rest of it ARE... WITHOUT... REPENTANCE..."

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This is a quite erroneous conclusion...let the passage of Romans 9:6-8 itself show in what it says, that you have gone totally opposite what Paul is saying:
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.”
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

You have to work real hard to miss what the apostle just said!

Not the issue though. The issue is you said the church is the remnant...they are NOT!

The remnant are those saved of national Israel, which Romans 11:1-5:
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.”
4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.

The understanding has to be what a remnant is. What do you think it is???

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The remanant are the Elect.....All are not of the Elect even those who are saved are not necessarily the elect.....

The elect are those whom God uses to make His Word come to pass exactly as it is written..........

And they still are the Church,always have been always will be.......

ebedmelech said in post 306:

My conclusion is based on Romans 11 which is Paul's summary of Israel and the church.

His conclusion is they are ONE OLIVE TREE which has been grafted together. This is why there's not two peoples of God!

The only people of God are ALL who are saved!

*There is no gospel to the Jew, and another gospel to the Gentile!

*There is no plan for the Jew and another plan for the Gentile.

There is only "The Israel of God" composed of Jews and Gentiles!

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That's right.

And Romans 11:17,24 isn't just about people-groups, but is also about individuals within those people-groups. For just as all believers are individual branches in the vine which is Jesus (John 15:5), the only way to salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12), so all believers are individual branches in the good olive tree of Israel, the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24, Jeremiah 11:16-17). For all Jewish believers remain part of Israel (Romans 11:1) as the natural branches in the tree of Israel (Romans 11:24). And all Gentile believers have been grafted as branches from a wild olive tree into the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), so they can partake of the salvation of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). This doesn't mean that a wild branch becomes a natural branch, that a Gentile believer becomes a genetic Jew, but that Gentile believers, even while remaining branches from a wild olive tree, even while remaining genetic Gentiles, are still grafted in to become part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24).

Similarly, all those in the church, whether Jews or Gentiles, are spiritually Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29). And Abraham's seed is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Romans 11:1; 2 Chronicles 20:7). So the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). Not just the Jews in the church (e.g. Romans 11:1b), but also the Gentiles in the church, are spiritually Abraham's seed of promise (Romans 9:7,8,24), as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28), and as Jesus is (Galatians 3:16,29). And so Gentiles in the church, along with Jews in the church, are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 15:27, Galatians 3:29b, Romans 11:17,24).

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ebedmelech said in post 310:

...let the passage of Romans 9:6-8 itself show in what it says . . .

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Indeed.

For all genetic Jews are part of genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-5). But being part of the true, spiritual Israel, the true, spiritual seed of Abraham, the promised seed, isn't based on genetics (Romans 9:6-24), but on God's election (Romans 9:11), which includes both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

In Romans 9:8, by "the children of the flesh", Paul means genetic Jews, who are the genetic children of Abraham (Romans 11:1, Acts 13:26, John 8:37). And by "the children of God"/"the children of the promise", Paul means the elect, both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24, Galatians 4:28). Romans 9:6-8 means that not all Jews are elect (John 8:37-47, John 10:26), and that some Gentiles are elect (Romans 9:24, John 10:16, John 11:52). Only a remnant of genetic Israel is elect (Romans 9:27), just as only a remnant of humanity in general is elect (chosen) (Matthew 22:14, Matthew 7:14).

Danoh said in post 308:

Election is not about salvation . . .

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Actually, it is. For the elect are those individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved by faith at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12), and so it is impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13) through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65) or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people can't understand the gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18) because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

The nonelect can't ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved, even when they are shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42), because the ability to believe in Jesus and the gospel comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of unbelievers so that on their own they can't repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).

Danoh said in post 308:

But that is temporary for the gifts given that nation as to said calling - the adoption, and the covenants, and the Law, and all the rest of it ARE... WITHOUT... REPENTANCE..."

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Romans 11:29 means that God doesn't revoke his election of people to initial salvation (Romans 11:26-28, Acts 13:48b). But the elect whom God has initially saved still have to diligently do the right things in order to make their calling and election sure, to their ultimate salvation (2 Peter 1:10-11, Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21).

The nation of Israel and the "church" of both Jew and Gentile are not the same

The first is an ethnic national entity still in tact, and the "church" is a spiritual kingdom yet to be revealed and includes all who genuinely belong to Jesus Christ who is both God and a "Jew" by His humanity

The evidence of Israel's historical and future continuous setting as a national people among the Gentiles of the nations runs throughout the scriptures [Isaiah 11; Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; 38; 39; Daniel 9; 12; Joel 2; 3; Micah 4; 5; Zechariah 12; 13; 14; Matthew 24; Luke 21:20-36; Revelation 7; 11; 12; 14; 15]

Straightshot said:

The nation of Israel and the "church" of both Jew and Gentile are not the same

The first is an ethnic national entity still in tact, and the "church" is a spiritual kingdom yet to be revealed and includes all who genuinely belong to Jesus Christ who is both God and a "Jew" by His humanity

The evidence of Israel's historical and future continuous setting as a national people among the Gentiles of the nations runs throughout the scriptures [Isaiah 11; Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; 38; 39; Daniel 9; 12; Joel 2; 3; Micah 4; 5; Zechariah 12; 13; 14; Matthew 24; Luke 21:20-36; Revelation 7; 11; 12; 14; 15]

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The Apostle Paul said the promise was not made to Abraham's seeds.

The promise was made to the One Seed.

Christ was the Seed of Abraham and the Seed of David.




Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


.

Straightshot said:

The nation of Israel and the "church" of both Jew and Gentile are not the same

The first is an ethnic national entity still in tact, and the "church" is a spiritual kingdom yet to be revealed and includes all who genuinely belong to Jesus Christ who is both God and a "Jew" by His humanity

The evidence of Israel's historical and future continuous setting as a national people among the Gentiles of the nations runs throughout the scriptures [Isaiah 11; Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; 38; 39; Daniel 9; 12; Joel 2; 3; Micah 4; 5; Zechariah 12; 13; 14; Matthew 24; Luke 21:20-36; Revelation 7; 11; 12; 14; 15]

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The New Testament declared equality between Jew and Gentile. And flat out says that all Christians are heirs of Abraham (grandfather of Israel and the twelve tribes).

Thus there is no ethnic national entity in tact anymore.

n2thelight said:

The remanant are the Elect.....All are not of the Elect even those who are saved are not necessarily the elect.....

The elect are those whom God uses to make His Word come to pass exactly as it is written..........

And they still are the Church,always have been always will be.......

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No. The elect are ALL God has chosen to salvation every believer is ELECT OF GOD!

As to "remnant"...let's allow the Greek to make it clear using Romans 11:5
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.
This is Vine's Expository Dictionary:

1 Strong's Number: g3062 Greek: loipos
Remnant:
an adjective (akin to leipo, "to leave") signifying "remaining," is used as a noun and translated "the rest" in the RV, where the AV has "the remnant," Mat 22:6; Rev 11:13; 12:17; 19:21.
See OTHER, RESIDUE, REST (the).
2 Strong's Number: g3005 Greek: leimma
Remnant:
"that which is left" (akin to leipo, "to leave"), "a remnant," is used in Rom 11:5, "there is a remnant," i.e., there is a spiritual "remnant" saved by the gospel from the midst of apostate Israel. While in one sense there has been and is a considerable number, yet, compared with the whole nation, past and present, the "remnant" is small, and as such is an evidence of God's electing grace (see ver. 4). In the Sept., 2Ki 19:4.
3 Strong's Number: g5259 g3005 Greek: hupolemma
Remnant:
hupo, "under," signifying "diminution," and No. 2, is used in Rom 9:27: some mss. have kataleimma, which has virtually the same meaning (kata, "down, behind"), "a remnant," where the contrast is drawn between the number of Israel as a whole, and the small number in it of those who are saved through the Gospel. The quotation is chiefly from the Sept. of Isa 10:22, 23, with a modification recalling Hsa 1:10, especially with regard to the word "number." The return of the "remnant" is indicated in the name "Shear-Jashub," see Isa 7:3, marg. The primary reference was to the return of a remnant from captivity to their own land and to God Himself; here the application is to the effects of the gospel. There is stress on the word "remnant."

As I said the remnant comes out of actual physical Jews!

Furthermore your assertion is out of line with Paul quoting Isaiah 10:22 in Romans 9:27-29.

The remnant are physical Israelites that God has been saving since Pentecost!

Straightshot said in post 314:

The nation of Israel and the "church" of both Jew and Gentile are not the same

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Actually, they are, insofar as just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

That is, all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they are genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews, if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Straightshot said in post 314:

The evidence of Israel's historical and future continuous setting as a national people among the Gentiles of the nations runs throughout the scriptures [Isaiah 11; Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; 38; 39; Daniel 9...

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Regarding Daniel 9, in verse 26, the original Hebrew word (karath: H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27). The 1st century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah, Jesus, made the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17). The future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be a fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 and the league in Daniel 11:23, with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Messiah in Jerusalem, after he and his followers are defeated by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:22-23). So the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", peace-treatied.

This treaty will allow this false Messiah and his followers to keep a 3rd Jewish temple which they will have built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount (after they or great earthquakes have destroyed the Muslim structures there), and to (mistakenly) continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of the temple for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. After "cutting" this treaty (Daniel 9:26a), the Antichrist could appear before the "many" (Daniel 9:27) nations represented at the U.N. General Assembly, and "confirm" (Daniel 9:27) that for at least 7 years he will keep this treaty with the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, using this as purported proof to the world that he is (in his words) "a man of peace, and no Hitler".

In Daniel 9:27, "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" refers to when, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty of Daniel 9:26a,27a and Daniel 11:23a, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the 3rd temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming, there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

Straightshot said in post 314:

The evidence of Israel's historical and future continuous setting as a national people among the Gentiles of the nations runs throughout the scriptures [Isaiah 11; Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; 38; 39; Daniel 9; 12 . . .

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Regarding Daniel 12, verse 1 will occur right after the future, tribulation events of Daniel 11:15-45, and will include the very last part of the tribulation, when the surviving Jews in Jerusalem (who could have been protected by the 2 witnesses during the preceding 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign: Revelation 11:3-13, Revelation 13:5-18) will be attacked immediately before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). This final attack will be the time of Jacob's trouble, which the Jews will be saved from (Jeremiah 30:7) at the 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:5).

Daniel 12:2 will occur at the church's resurrection at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For some in the church will lose their salvation at Jesus' 2nd coming (e.g. Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

Daniel 12:7b means that at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will come to a church which has been completely defeated physically by the Antichrist. For during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, he will be allowed to make war against the church and to overcome it physically in every nation (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). It is only when the Antichrist has completely broken all the physical power of the church that the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will end (Daniel 12:7b), and Jesus' 2nd coming will immediately occur, at which time he will physically resurrect and rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). At his 2nd coming, Jesus will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so he/God will get all the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43), for he/God won't share this glory with the church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).

Straightshot said in post 314:

The evidence of Israel's historical and future continuous setting as a national people among the Gentiles of the nations runs throughout the scriptures [Isaiah 11; Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; 38; 39; Daniel 9; 12; Joel 2 . . .

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Regarding Joel 2, verses 1-27 can refer poetically to a literal locust invasion which destroyed ancient Israel's crops (Joel 2:25) sometime before the Acts 2 day of Pentecost in the 1st century AD (Joel 2:28-29, Acts 2:16-18). For the day of the Lord in Joel 2:1-27 can refer to an ancient day of the Lord, like the ancient day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46:2,10. Both of these ancient days of the Lord can be different than the future day of the Lord (Joel 2:31), which won't start until sometime after (as in only a few years after) the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12, Joel 2:31) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the future day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Joel 2:1 referring only to Zion, the holy mountain, and to the land, can mean that it is referring only to a localized day of the Lord which affected only the ancient Israelites on their land. Joel 2:2 can refer to a huge cloud of literal locusts darkening the skies of Israel. Just as literal ants can be referred to as "a people" (Hebrew: "am": H5971) (Proverbs 30:25), so a huge cloud of devouring locusts can be referred to poetically as "a great people (H5971) and a strong" (Joel 2:2). Joel 2:3b describes the effects of a locust invasion, which can be poetically expressed as being like a devouring fire (Joel 2:3a). Joel 2:4 can describe locusts running along the ground as looking like little horses. Joel 2:5 can poetically describe locusts leaping high, and devouring every plant down even to its stubble. "A strong people set in battle array" (Joel 2:5) brings to mind another poetic description of a locust swarm: "go they forth all of them by bands", i.e. distributed into ranks (Hebrew: "chatsats": H2686) (Proverbs 30:27).

Joel 2:6 can poetically describe the immense grief felt by the ancient Israelites as they witnessed all their crops being devoured by the locust swarm. Joel 2:7 can describe locusts running along the ground and climbing up walls. "They shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks" (Joel 2:7) again brings to mind another poetic description of a literal locust swarm: "go they forth all of them by bands" (Proverbs 30:27). Joel 2:8 can refer to the locusts in the swarm not attacking each other, and to how useless a sword was in fighting against them. Because locusts are small and have an exoskeleton, they can just bounce off a swinging sword as they fly along. Joel 2:9 can refer to locusts running along the ground through a city, climbing up onto the walls of buildings and into windows looking for food anywhere they can.

Joel 2:10 can be poetic hyperbole to express how terrible the locust swarm was to the land of Israel, and how the swarm was so vast that it darkened the skies of Israel completely. The original Hebrew word (erets: H0776) translated as "the earth" (Joel 2:10) can refer to only a local area of land (e.g. Genesis 2:11,13), like how, for example, our word "earthquake" today can refer to only a local event. Joel 2:11 shows that the literal locust swarm wasn't (as is sometimes claimed) from Satan, fallen angels, or evil nephilim, but was considered by God to be his own "army", as it were (Joel 2:25). Joel 2:20 can mean that God's literal locust "army" (Joel 2:25) came from the north into the land of Israel, and that the swarm was eventually sent off by God into the barren desert, where the locusts died of starvation and their millions of dead bodies rotted in the sun and sent up a great stench. Joel 2:25 shows that it was literal locusts and other plant-destroying insects which God considered to be "my great army which I sent among you".

Joel 2:28-29 shows that the locusts devoured ancient Israel's crops sometime before the Acts 2 day of Pentecost in the 1st century AD. For Joel 2:28-29 began to happen sometime "afterward", sometime after the locust invasion of Joel 2:1-27. And Joel 2:28-29 began to happen at the Acts 2 day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-18).

Straightshot said in post 314:

The evidence of Israel's historical and future continuous setting as a national people among the Gentiles of the nations runs throughout the scriptures [Isaiah 11; Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; 38; 39; Daniel 9; 12; Joel 2; 3; Micah 4 . . .

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Regarding Micah 4, verses 1-8,13 are a prophecy of the future time of the millennium.

And if Micah 4:9-10 wasn't a prophecy of the Babylonian Captivity of the Jews in the 6th century BC, then Micah 4:9-13 could refer to what will happen right before, at, and after the 2nd coming (Zechariah 14).

Straightshot said in post 314:

The evidence of Israel's historical and future continuous setting as a national people among the Gentiles of the nations runs throughout the scriptures [Isaiah 11; Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; 38; 39; Daniel 9; 12; Joel 2; 3; Micah 4; 5; Zechariah 12; 13; 14; Matthew 24 . . .

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Regarding Matthew 24, note that Jesus spoke specifically of his "church" (Matthew 16:18, Matthew 18:17) before he spoke Matthew 24. And Matthew 24 refers to the future tribulation, by which time the church will have existed for some 2,000 years. The saints who will be in the tribulation will be the church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the church who will be in the tribulation could include most of the believers alive today (whether Jewish or Gentile), for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately only to believers (Matthew 24:3,4,9), and in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed only to believers (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the (mistaken) pre-tribulation rapture view admits that, for example, John 14, Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21, and Matthew 28 can apply to those in the church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3, Matthew 28:18-19), so the pre-tribulation rapture view should be able to admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to those in the church today.

Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, whether genetic Jews or Gentiles, those who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), and/or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that he is letting them and their little ones suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:37-39).

Straightshot said in post 314:

The evidence of Israel's historical and future continuous setting as a national people among the Gentiles of the nations runs throughout the scriptures [Isaiah 11; Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; 38; 39; Daniel 9; 12; Joel 2; 3; Micah 4; 5; Zechariah 12; 13; 14; Matthew 24 . . .

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Regarding Matthew 24, and its reference to "Judaea" (verse 16), note that there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) today. They contain mostly Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers. The church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the church, both Gentiles and Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist's persecution of the church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up, and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple (at least one time) and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the church will reach every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), so that the basic principle of Matthew 24:16, of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution), would apply to believers around the world.

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different, protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up, they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all of the emergency supplies of food, water, warm clothing, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all Biblical Christians that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Straightshot said in post 314:

The evidence of Israel's historical and future continuous setting as a national people among the Gentiles of the nations runs throughout the scriptures [Isaiah 11; Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; 38; 39; Daniel 9; 12; Joel 2; 3; Micah 4; 5; Zechariah 12; 13; 14; Matthew 24; Luke 21:20-36; Revelation 7 . . .

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Regarding Revelation 7, note that the 144,000 will all be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they will all be part of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could all already be part of the church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8, during the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will have entered the tribulation along with the rest of the church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19) because the Israel they are from isn't genetic Israel with its 12 genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

Straightshot said in post 314:

The evidence of Israel's historical and future continuous setting as a national people among the Gentiles of the nations runs throughout the scriptures [Isaiah 11; Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; 38; 39; Daniel 9; 12; Joel 2; 3; Micah 4; 5; Zechariah 12; 13; 14; Matthew 24; Luke 21:20-36; Revelation 7; 11; 12 . . .

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Regarding Revelation 12, the woman there represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). She is clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). The moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). The crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26), who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child", and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6), represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities, and will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, Genesis 37:9-10 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1, the church/Israel isn't clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2), through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the church/Israel doesn't have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the church/Israel doesn't have Jacob's 12 sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the 12 apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her 12 tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).