Joe and Jane Help

OldWiseGuy

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Either you support forcing someone to do have sex when they don't want it (because of "responsibility"), or you support their right to refuse sex if they don't want it.

There is no inbetween.

The inbetween is the reason for refusing, which in many cases is a "root of bitterness" that has nothing to do with sex but has poisoned that most fragile part of marriage.
 
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RBPerry

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Well according to Paul, who authored much of the New Testament a woman does have an obligation to fulfill her husbands sexual needs, and desires. I didn't make the rules, he did.
 
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RBPerry

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Joe and Jane may have more intimacy issues than noted. These are difficult answers to be determined on a forum.

They do have other issues, there are some deep emotional scars, lack of forgiveness, and attitudes towards each other. However this is a problem affecting many marriages today and unless they are brought out in the open and talked about little will be done to resolve them.
 
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Shemjaza

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I don't think I can really make any recommendations without breaking some site rules.

However, I think Joe and Jane's current attitudes to the morality of sexual fidelity are actually quite important to the discussion.

As far as I'm concerned if they still love on another and are still committed to staying together and supporting one another for the rest of their lives then they should stay together and find some way to work out the niggling sex issue. I feel for Joe in that if you are sexual person you usually most want to be close to the one you love in a sexual way. But, I can' imagine anything worse then to be uninterested in sex and feeling like someone is pressuring you to give in as I suspect Jane might feel.

To carefully skirt the edges of rules: hypothetically if someone is so disinterested in sex that they don't feel like it's important to ever have it, then I don't think it's reasonable for them to place restrictions on their partner finding it elsewhere. (please don't ban me).
 
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RBPerry

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Lets look at what the Bible says.

1 Corinthians 7:4 (NIV)
4 The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife.

I think that pretty much covers the responsibilities of each. Husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church. That is a much greater responsibility than the wife has.

If the wife has decided to withhold sex with her husband she is in direct conflict with this scripture, same with the husband. There are good reasons to abstain, health issues being one, and the mate needs to respect that.

I don't see how we can justify going outside the marriage, unless they decide to become a poly family, and that is another can of worms. One being it is illegal here in the US but permitted in other countries. There is no biblical restrictions that I know of unless a person wishes to be in leadership in the church. I understand that pologamy laws are now being challenged in the supreme court.

I suppose if the wife or husband decides they don't want to fulfill their spousal obligations they could leave the marriage, but here again, another can of worms ethically.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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There is no inbeteeen.

If you have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex (the reason doesn't matter), it's rape.

If so millions of men and women are raped each day all around the world.

You are supporting rape. Good day :)

If that kind of 'rape' keeps peace in the family, I'll support it. :D

But seriously KKM, genuine rape usually requires force by one and resistance by the other.
 
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jacknife

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OldWiseGuy

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Wow....just wow.

I take it you are single? :p

Please correct the quote attributions. You have attributed my comment to KKM, a common mistake.
 
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Jade Margery

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If so millions of men and women are raped each day all around the world.

Unfortunately, it is true that marital rape is sadly common around the world.

If that kind of 'rape' keeps peace in the family, I'll support it. :D

But seriously KKM, genuine rape usually requires force by one and resistance by the other.

Yeah, no, it doesn't.

Not all forms of sexual coercion are illegal, but they achieve a similar end - making someone to do something they don't want to. "If you loved me, you would do this." "It's your responsibility to do this." "The bible says you have to do this."

Now, while a person can't be charged with a crime for employing these tactics, they are undoubtedly manipulative, using emotional or psychological force rather than physical to take control of someone else. It's certainly not a loving, respectful thing to do to your partner.

To play devil's advocate though, I do think that partners who have decided to be monogamous are obligated to care for the physical and emotional needs of their counterparts so long as those needs are not unreasonable. That doesn't mean a wife HAS to have sex with her husband or vice versa, but that if for some reason she won't or can't, she need needs to respect his needs and either allow him to get them fulfilled somewhere else or let him go. Not being in the mood for a couple days isn't a reason to do this, but not being in the mood for several years would be.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Unfortunately, it is true that marital rape is sadly common around the world.



Yeah, no, it doesn't.

Not all forms of sexual coercion are illegal, but they achieve a similar end - making someone to do something they don't want to. "If you loved me, you would do this." "It's your responsibility to do this." "The bible says you have to do this."

Now, while a person can't be charged with a crime for employing these tactics, they are undoubtedly manipulative, using emotional or psychological force rather than physical to take control of someone else. It's certainly not a loving, respectful thing to do to your partner.

To play devil's advocate though, I do think that partners who have decided to be monogamous are obligated to care for the physical and emotional needs of their counterparts so long as those needs are not unreasonable. That doesn't mean a wife HAS to have sex with her husband or vice versa, but that if for some reason she won't or can't, she need needs to respect his needs and either allow him to get them fulfilled somewhere else or let him go. Not being in the mood for a couple days isn't a reason to do this, but not being in the mood for several years would be.

You and KitKat are missing my point when I say that millions of men and women around the world have sex although they would rather not have sex either tonight or so often. This is not being 'raped', but a willing concession to their partner. Most partners don't become forceful or abusive to receive this concession.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Well, obviously Paul's rules require amending.

A wife has no obligation whatsoever to engage in sex with her husband.

Actually the sexual union is implicit in the marriage covenant, unless the participants write it out of their vows. So, no sex = no marriage = no wife and no husband.

So to amend your statement. "A woman has no obligation whatsoever to engage in sex with her man."
 
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Actually the sexual union is implicit in the marriage covenant, unless the participants write it out of their vows. So, no sex = no marriage = no wife and no husband.


Are you suggesting there is an authoritive power that decides what people can do (or not do) in their marriage?
Unless you are referring to some type of religious marriage there are no standard vows that need excluding, because the bride and groom write their own vows.

A wife's body belongs solely to her, it is her decision whether or not she chooses to engage in sex with her husband.

Sex is not a prerequisite for marriage.
 
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RBPerry

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KitKat, according to your profile, you are a single agnostic woman. We can not expect you to understand the Christian marriage relationship. It seems you must be searching for truth, and that truth is found in Jesus Christ, and led by the Holy Spirit.
What you perceive as rape is each spouse fulfilling their obligations to their mate. I can thing of many times my wife wanted to make love and I just wasn't in the mood, but I had an obligation to her. I don't expect you to understand that kind of commitment to each other. On the other hand if I were in the mood and there was a honest reason my wife wasn't I would never force her. You see love means you want the very best for your spouse, and the means respecting their desires, and needs.

I pray you meed Jesus and invite Him into your life. My business card says "If you meet me and forget me you have lost nothing, If you meet Jesus and forget Him you have lost everything."
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Are you suggesting there is an authoritive power that decides what people can do (or not do) in their marriage?
Unless you are referring to some type of religious marriage there are no standard vows that need excluding, because the bride and groom write their own vows.

A wife's body belongs solely to her, it is her decision whether or not she chooses to engage in sex with her husband.

Sex is not a prerequisite for marriage.

It is a requisite part of a Christian marriage. It's also a great way to produce children. :p
 
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