Do animals have souls?

Not immortal souls, otherwise would God allow us to eat them ?

Leevo said:

I stand corrected, after further researching this, it seems that it was a misunderstanding and that it wasPope Paul VI that said it.

Click to expand...

Allegedly. Another common attribution by the media based on no proof whatsoever.

I will point out that Proverbs 12:10 in the Hebrew says that a righteous person knows the soul of his beast or animal. Now, you can easily argue that it's a figure of speech (and the traditional Jewish understanding is that it's just a word that means living creature), but I've always found it pretty interesting.

LoAmmi said:

I will point out that Proverbs 12:10 in the Hebrew says that a righteous person knows the soul of his beast or animal. Now, you can easily argue that it's a figure of speech (and the traditional Jewish understanding is that it's just a word that means living creature), but I've always found it pretty interesting.

Click to expand...

I am no expert in Hebrew, but I would translate נֶפֶשׁ (nephesh) as "breathing", "vitality", rather than "soul" with the connotations here, nor would I interpret the verse that way. As for the Latin ("novit iustus animas iumentorum suorum"), the same sense would apply.

AXO said:

I am no expert in Hebrew, but I would translate נֶפֶשׁ (nephesh) as "breathing", "vitality", rather than "soul" with the connotations here, nor would I interpret the verse that way.

Click to expand...

Breath is related. Breath of life, right?

As I said, traditional interpretation has to do with living creatures which I agree with, but you could be ultra-literal and come up with soul. It's also a Proverb so it's inclined to be more poetic.

AXO said:

I am no expert in Hebrew, but I would translate נֶפֶשׁ (nephesh) as "breathing", "vitality", rather than "soul" with the connotations here, nor would I interpret the verse that way. As for the Latin ("novit iustus animas iumentorum suorum"), the same sense would apply.

Click to expand...

A righteous person knows the breathing of his animals?

Mikhael said:

A righteous person knows the breathing of his animals?

Click to expand...

No, he's right. The root of it has to do with breathing. HaShem breathed life into us, after all, so breath is connected to life, the soul, essence, vitality. Hebrew isn't always an exact language and it takes context to really get what it's saying.

All I know is that working for the public day in day out, I've come to the conclusion I like my 3 cats TEN TIMES MORE than the average human!

If we were in a Walking Dead apocalypse, if it came down to my cats or some of the folks I've had to deal with....hmmmm

MikeK said:

Animals may or may not have souls, but they differ from humans in that they are not of infinite worth and are not made in the image and likeness of God.

Click to expand...

I hope cows don't have souls, because they're mighty tasty medium rare.

That's not a problem as Christians don't think cows have
immortal souls.
Just make sure you don't become a Hindu.

I don't find this funny. My grandfather had a farm, and I remember as a little boy going to visit him. I'd pet and feed the cows. I was blown away by how sweet they were, and how smart! They're really neat creatures. We went up there months later and were eating roast. He asked me if I remembered that cow out in his pasture that I really fell in love with? I told him, "of course!" and he laughed, "you're eating it." I almost puked in my own mouth. I fed it to the dog.

Been a vegetarian since 2011. LOVE IT. I don't preach it hard at people, but I hate the "tasty farm animal" comments. Love you still though, MS.

Miss Shelby said:

I hope cows don't have souls, because they're mighty tasty medium rare.

Click to expand...

I think my years in the Orthodox Church really reading the patristics, getting closer to the Fathers, it put me in touch with the reality of this Earth PRE-FALL. Animals were not intended for eating, slaughtering, abusing, and the idea of the factory farming model we have today that is rife with abuse, cruelty, and awful hellish treatment of animals, is so far from God's original intention that it's plain for any reasonable person to see. There was no death pre-Fall. Animals were given to Adam as companions and to love and enjoy. They were an extension of God's love for Adam and his desire to see him happy, part of creation, mystically linked to man. Before the Fall things were so utterly different!

After the Fall, God allows animals to be eaten as a concession to the new economy, but in my heart I strive for the pre-Fall ideal. So when people laugh at me as a tree-hugging vegetarian who "must eat nothing but bean sprouts and tree bark" I just roll my eyes and smile.

In Orthodoxy, none of the prayer books, Bible, Apostol book, NONE of them may be leather-bound! A lot of people don't know this! Reason? Leather comes from death. Dead cows yield us leather. NOTHING DEAD should touch the altar of Christ in an Orthodox or Eastern Catholic temple. It's disrespectful. Death is not the name of the game. It's about LIFE and vitality, the original economy, not this new one we're stuck in.

Just another way of seeing things. One can hate death across the board, including the cruel deaths of animals and hate the Orwellian dystopian factory farm nightmare that's going on...and actually be more in touch with the pre-Fall model and be an awesome Christian!

gurneyhalleck1 said:

In Orthodoxy, none of the prayer books, Bible, Apostol book, NONE of them may be leather-bound! A lot of people don't know this! Reason?

Click to expand...

Including these guys it seems:
The Ancient Faith Prayer Book, deluxe leather edition - Ancient Faith Publishing

Or the makers of the codex sinaiticus, which is written on parchment.

Hi Ebia,

I think sometimes when you see my posts, my name attached, you INSTANTLY jump into that "oh goody, I want to prove this moron wrong and make him look as dumb and hypocritical as possible! Let's go!"

It's unfortunate.

If you look at the link you put up here to make me look stupid with, it's a prayer book, mate. I never said "ALL ORTHODOX PRAYER BOOKS CANNOT BE LEATHER-BOUND." Did I say that? I said the usual tradition for PRAYER BOOKS AND SUCH USED ON THE ALTAR behind the iconostasis are generally not supposed to have leather covers because...and you read my reasoning.

Does that mean I personally cannot buy a leather-bound prayer book? Nope. Why? Because last time I checked there is no altar in my home and we don't sacrifice Jesus Christ in the Eucharist at gurney's house. So....leather is fine.

I'm not making a unversal sweeping statement. I'm sure there are priests who do not know this tradition and somewhere it is broken.

So now go dig deep and try to take a simple point of mine and make me look stupid. ......go!

ebia said:

Including these guys it seems:
The Ancient Faith Prayer Book, deluxe leather edition - Ancient Faith Publishing

Or the makers of the codex sinaiticus, which is written on parchment.

Click to expand...

gurneyhalleck1 said:

Hi Ebia,

I think sometimes when you see my posts, my name attached, you INSTANTLY jump into that "oh goody, I want to prove this moron wrong and make him look as dumb and hypocritical as possible! Let's go!"

It's unfortunate.

If you look at the link you put up here to make me look stupid with, it's a prayer book, mate. I never said "ALL ORTHODOX PRAYER BOOKS CANNOT BE LEATHER-BOUND." Did I say that? I said the usual tradition for PRAYER BOOKS AND SUCH USED ON THE ALTAR behind the iconostasis are generally not supposed to have leather covers because...and you read my reasoning.

Does that mean I personally cannot buy a leather-bound prayer book? Nope. Why? Because last time I checked there is no altar in my home and we don't sacrifice Jesus Christ in the Eucharist at gurney's house. So....leather is fine.

I'm not making a unversal sweeping statement. I'm sure there are priests who do not know this tradition and somewhere it is broken.

So now go dig deep and try to take a simple point of mine and make me look stupid. ......go!

Click to expand...

I've noticed that, other than a select few people, he always takes the opposite position and tries to prove others wrong no matter what. Other than said select few people, he's never in agreement and it's always got to be an argument of some sort. It's like, wow, you really have to question and argue every single thing?

gurneyhalleck1 said:

I never said "ALL ORTHODOX PRAYER BOOKS CANNOT BE LEATHER-BOUND." Did I say that?

Click to expand...

That's what "in orthodoxy none of the prayer books, ... NONE of them". Looked like like to me.

I said the usual tradition for PRAYER BOOKS AND SUCH USED ON THE ALTAR behind the iconostasis are generally not supposed to have leather covers because...

Click to expand...

Maybe that's what you meant, but it's definitely not what you said.

Does that mean I personally cannot buy a leather-bound prayer book? Nope. Why? Because last time I checked there is no altar in my home and we don't sacrifice Jesus Christ in the Eucharist at gurney's house. So....leather is fine.

Click to expand...

And codex sinaticus was made for someone's personal use at home?

Mikhael said:

I've noticed that, other than a select few people, he always takes the opposite position and tries to prove others wrong no matter what. Other than said select few people, he's never in agreement and it's always got to be an argument of some sort. It's like, wow, you really have to question and argue every single thing?

Click to expand...

I did also notice that...

I think it is a thoughtful thing to avoid using animal skins for binding altar books. I don't think it is necessary but the explanation was good.

And I reckon ebia is a decent chap. Be good to each other.