The essential axiom of NT eschatology

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random person said in post 59:

Verse 29 and after, the Olivet Discourse lapses into a metaphoric language... see verse 34

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Note that Matthew 24:34 refers to the fulfillment of "all these things", all the events of the tribulation, and Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church "immediately after" the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which he would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean that the tribulation, 2nd coming, and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' first coming, for none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.

Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9, Matthew 21:19,43), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

This doesn't require that the 2nd coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the 2nd coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the tribulation's first year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021 or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

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The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the fig tree (Matthew 21:19) was symbolic of his curse on unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:43). The Israel which was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel which Jesus cursed at his first coming. For it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel which was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman-empire army.

But Jesus' kingdom is still called "Israel" (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).
 
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BABerean2

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riverrat

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But John Darby got it all correct. Right?

Scripture must be "Rightly Divided" in order to make Darby's system work.



Nicene Council on John Darby
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqVmgVSuGtg
Has anyone gotten it all correct?

Scripture must be "rightly divided" in order to make any system work. That is the reason that BABerean2ism does not work. You do not know how to "rightly divide."
 
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BABerean2

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Has anyone gotten it all correct?

Scripture must be "rightly divided" in order to make any system work. That is the reason that BABerean2ism does not work. You do not know how to "rightly divide."

God "rightly divided" scripture into an Old Testament and a New Testament.

He did not need John Darby to further divide it, in order to make his manmade doctrine work.


Pay attention and take some notes on this video of "Rightly Dividing".


Pastor Mike Hoggard Rightly Dividing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaw-6n_L0pg
 
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riverrat

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God "rightly divided" scripture into an Old Testament and a New Testament.

He did not need John Darby to further divide it, in order to make his manmade doctrine work.


Pay attention and take some notes on this video of "Rightly Dividing".


Pastor Mike Hoggard Rightly Dividing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaw-6n_L0pg
You are wrong as usual. God did not divide scripture into OT and NT. Man did that.

I do not look at videos that you post. Waste of my time.
 
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BABerean2

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You are wrong as usual. God did not divide scripture into OT and NT. Man did that.

I do not look at videos that you post. Waste of my time.

God produced an Old Covenant found in the Old Testament and a New Covenant found in the New Testament.

If you could let go of your manmade, Darbyite system you could see that.


Darby's system has the modern Jews going back to a covenant that has been replaced.

How will they gain any measure of salvation through an obsolete system?

They cannot.



Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
(The New Covenant has replaced the Old Covenant.)

Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
(He took away the first covenant to establish the second.)

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
(There is no need for renewed animal sacrifices. Christ was the ultimate sacrifice. He was God‘s one and only son.)

Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.



Your manmade system has the Jews going back to an obsolete covenant.

Talk about a waste of time...


 
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BABerean2

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BABerean2: According to scripture God made the new covenant with Israel and Judah at the death of Christ. Man made the new covenant with Israel and Judah at the birth of Christ.

Who is correct?

As usual, you make a claim based on a false narrative, with no scripture to back it up, and then somehow others are supposed to respond to your question.

Surely, you can do better than that.



Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.


.
 
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Interplanner

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If RiverRat means the titles, that's fine, but of course the difference between things that Hebrews or 2 Cor 3-5 or Ephesians is talking about is huge. At some point we have to realize that Christ is not about re-establishing Judaism (a person might as well say 'Judaism' when referring to the old covenant system). Otherwise there is no getting through John, esp. Jn 4. Or even 'the law came through Moses; grace and truth...' in ch 1.

And we know that what Hebrews is saying shows no signs of reverting back. This is always the 'master clue' of theology on this question. The complete passages about what has occurred don't go back, don't mention it, warn against it, devalue it (Phil 3), and there is nothing in the future about it, 2 Pet 3.

It's not in Rom 11 because that is not what 'saved' means there; it is very new covenant in what it means there: the removal of the debt of sins, and it mentions the covenant--a reminder that the old one needs to give way.

At the end of the day, this part of futurist theology shows that it has adopted the Leftist/Marxist tactic of all-out villification: there is no clear indication of a future Judaism, but since it is so important to futurism, it cries denial and it villifies its enemy (RTs) instead of coming to terms with the passages themselves.

It's very strange that it would adopt such a topic but there it is.
 
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Danoh

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If RiverRat means the titles, that's fine, but of course the difference between things that Hebrews or 2 Cor 3-5 or Ephesians is talking about is huge. At some point we have to realize that Christ is not about re-establishing Judaism (a person might as well say 'Judaism' when referring to the old covenant system). Otherwise there is no getting through John, esp. Jn 4. Or even 'the law came through Moses; grace and truth...' in ch 1.

And we know that what Hebrews is saying shows no signs of reverting back. This is always the 'master clue' of theology on this question. The complete passages about what has occurred don't go back, don't mention it, warn against it, devalue it (Phil 3), and there is nothing in the future about it, 2 Pet 3.

It's not in Rom 11 because that is not what 'saved' means there; it is very new covenant in what it means there: the removal of the debt of sins, and it mentions the covenant--a reminder that the old one needs to give way.

At the end of the day, this part of futurist theology shows that it has adopted the Leftist/Marxist tactic of all-out villification: there is no clear indication of a future Judaism, but since it is so important to futurism, it cries denial and it villifies its enemy (RTs) instead of coming to terms with the passages themselves.

It's very strange that it would adopt such a topic but there it is.

Actually, what it shows is that you and yours do not really know what we are talking about.

You conclude that you know what we are talking about, add to that your misinformed understanding of what the passages are talking about and presto we're wrong from where you are looking at things.

Fact of the matter is that your entire school is based on conclusions arrived at before crucial information was considered, a system of information built on said too soon conclusions, that is now applied against any view that has looked more in depth at what your school failed to look into a bit more before allowing itself its conclusions.

Its why you and yours are more about the likes of the so called ECF, of the likes of a Josephus, in short, more about "books about" than The Book About Itself while deluding yourselves otherwise.

And to call you on this is, in your "book about" to so called "vilify" you.

As if your posts are not equally as consistently guilty of vilifying whatever position you and yours have remained clueless about.

Your duplicity remains as wilful as your cluelessness.

Fact is you and yours want to get away with asserting what Hebrews asserts as to when the NT began, only to ignore it as to its fact that Matt. thru John are NOT NT ground, so you can have your error that Matt. thru John are not a continuation of the OT promises when in fact those four books are a continuation of OT ground.

At this point, one of you will quote passages from Matt. thru John completely ignoring what Hebrews asserts about when it is that the NT is aforce - AFTER the death of the Testator.

In this, a passage like John 1:17 is NOT asserting that Matt. thru John are NT ground, rather Who said Testator was and when the events leading to His death UNDER OT GROUND took place.

The result of all that - the OT based question not only asked in Acts 1, but preached in Acts 2 and 3, the DELAY in its realization explained by Peter in 2 Peter 3 per Paul's writings.

But you and yours also deny Ephesians' 2's Distinction Between a Time Past, a But Now, and The Ages to Come, thus, your almost eleven thousand rants are probably all the same denial.

Fact of the matter is "that blindness in part IS happened TO ISRAEL UNTIL the fulness OF THE GENTILES be come in."

Fact of the matter is, that distort said "UNTIL" all you and yours want - NEVERTHELESS - THERE - IT - SITS...

Of course, I'd be repeating myself to assert once more that you and yours don't even know what we are talking about.

Some continue to prove they think we mean Jews today have no gospel...

Just goes to shew the ignorance that twisting the actual sense of Romans two has resulted in, in such individuals.

You'd think someone would simply ask at some point.

Vilify you? You vilify yourselves.
 
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BABerean2

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If one's pride will not allow the mind to admit the manmade doctrine is flawed, the only thing left is to make a personal attack on those who oppose the doctrine.

They do not seem to realize that others reading this forum are watching how and what is being said.

Those using school-yard tactics are shooting themselves in the foot and do not seem to be aware of it.
 
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Danoh

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If one's pride will not allow the mind to admit the manmade doctrine is flawed, the only thing left is to make a personal attack on those who oppose the doctrine.

They do not seem to realize that others reading this forum are watching how and what is being said.

Those using school-yard tactics are shooting themselves in the foot and do not seem to be aware of it.

If we are guilty as charged...we are guilty WITH you.

Fact of the matter is that you are one of those who erroneously concludes we assert there is no gospel for the Jew TODAY.

You constantly harp on that. And when corrected on it you ignore it and or twist it out of your misread of Romans 2.

Address it; quit harping on other issues as your standard hided behind.
 
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ebedmelech

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If we are guilty as charged...we are guilty WITH you.

Fact of the matter is that you are one of those who erroneously concludes we assert there is no gospel for the Jew TODAY.
Quite erroneous Danoh. The assertion is there's ONE gospel to ALL. Please show more than ONE GOSPEL...it's that easy...BUT YOU CAN'T!!!

What did Peter preach to the Jews on Pentecost in Acts 2:38?:
38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The very SAME gospel THROUGHOUT the NT!!!
You constantly harp on that. And when corrected on it you ignore it and or twist it out of your misread of Romans 2.
Romans 2 asserts one gospel...please make you point from Romans 2.
Address it; quit harping on other issues as your standard hided behind.
It's addressed in Romans 2:28, 29 *if* you understand Paul's assertion there.
 
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Interplanner

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Danoh,
unless you had some problem with BW that I didn't notice, he was the ECF go to guy, not me. But that doesn't mean he understood one of the basic NT history questions. He found validation of futurism about 100 years later but didn't really see what the apostles were saying; hence his denial about Acts 13 or Eph 3.
 
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Danoh

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Quite erroneous Danoh. The assertion is there's ONE gospel to ALL. Please show more than ONE GOSPEL...it's that easy...BUT YOU CAN'T!!!

What did Peter preach to the Jews on Pentecost in Acts 2:38?:
38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The very SAME gospel THROUGHOUT the NT!!!

Romans 2 asserts one gospel...please make you point from Romans 2.

It's addressed in Romans 2:28, 29 *if* you understand Paul's assertion there.

Am not in the least bit surprised you misunderstood what I said.

And... I've posted answers to your above quiries in thr past to no avail - as I recall, you responded from your error.

You crack me up - you ask for Scripture you well know you have deadset your view about.

In short, remain seated, you have a long wait.

I've been ignoring you as of late.
 
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Danoh

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Danoh,
unless you had some problem with BW that I didn't notice, he was the ECF go to guy, not me. But that doesn't mean he understood one of the basic NT history questions. He found validation of futurism about 100 years later but didn't really see what the apostles were saying; hence his denial about Acts 13 or Eph 3.

You very well know I addressed him as to his over emphasis on ECF writings, so don't even go there - I am one of very few on here willing to go against his own when that is needed. Most of you remain silent when one of your own is off.

Unless you and Ebed, and Random, et al are Post-Trib, lol to your farce....
 
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Danoh said in post 73:

Fact of the matter is "that blindness in part IS happened TO ISRAEL UNTIL the fulness OF THE GENTILES be come in."

That's right.

And in Romans 11:25, the Gentiles are genetic Gentiles, the people addressed throughout Romans 11:13-31, who aren't genetic Jews like Paul the apostle (Romans 11:1,14). But note that both individual genetic Jewish believers (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentile believers (engrafted wild branches) are branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For when Gentiles become believers they "come in" (Romans 11:25) to be part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The fruit of each individual branch would be the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10). It is the genetic Jews who are "blind in part", meaning that some (in the sense of not all) of them are spiritually blind while others aren't (Romans 11:7-10). For "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25) in its genetic sense (Romans 11:1,14), that is, genetic Jews (Acts 22:3). Also, in Romans 11:25-26, "Israel" includes elect genetic Jews who aren't yet believers (Romans 11:28), but who will become believers eventually (Romans 11:26).

When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church. For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Also, if the genetic Jews who will become saved at the 2nd coming had been religious Jews, they won't continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).
 
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