simchat_torah

Got Torah?
Feb 23, 2003
7,345
433
45
San Francisco, CA
Visit site
✟9,917.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Before I begin, I would like to share one thing.

This was the MOST DIFFICULT thing I had ever come across. Since then, I have found an uncountable number of Jewish Believers who have confided in me the same conclusion. Also, since my encounter with this issue (quite some time ago) it broke me of ever being offended by HaShem's truths again.

I was raised in a christian home. I veiwed communion as one of the most holy of all traditions. What I am about to share with you was one of the absolutely most difficult things for me to come to closure on.

Now here it is.....

“Baruch ata Adonai, Eloheinu Melech ha’olam, hamotzi lechem, min ha aretz.”
“Blessed are You, O LORD our God, King of the Universe, Who has brought forth bread from the earth.”

At the beginning of the family meal, this blessing is said as the bread is broken. The blessing is referred to as “the breaking of bread”.
Sharing meals is a very important part of Jewish family and community life. So important, that special blessings are said at the start and end of the meal. The term “breaking bread” is mentioned several times in the Brit Chadasha writings. It is important that we take a look at what it means in Jewish life, to “break bread”.

In the days of Yeshua, a 'communal meal' was a common practice, particularly among the Jewish Sect of the Essenes. The Essenes, a community living mostly in the Judean hills, were known for their absolute community of goods. Those who came into the Community, had to give all they had: there was one purse for all, and all members had expenses, clothing, and food in common. In the second chapter of the book of ‘Acts’, many of the believers in Messiah began to follow the Essene lifestyle, selling their belongings, having all things in common and breaking bread (sharing communal meals) from house to house: “And all believers were together and had all things in common; and those who had possessions sold them and divided to each man according to his need. And they went to the Temple every day with one accord; and at home they broke bread and received food with joy and a pure heart.”

With the advent of Christianity in the fourth century CE, a “Communion” ritual was introduced as part of Christian worship. This ritual involved the reconstructing of the ‘sacrifice of Christ’, where the worshipers partook of bread and wine, which represented the body and blood of their g-d.

Now, within Judaism, there is no such concept as 'communion', nor has there ever been. There is no Biblical equivalent to 'Eucharist', or ‘Communion ritual’. Actually, the ‘communion’ practice caused many severe problems for the Jews, particularly in medieval times with the strange charges of ‘host desecration’. Jews were accused and executed, for allegedly profaning the communion wafer. It was imagined in Christian circles that the Jews, not content with crucifying Christ once, continued to renew the agonies of his suffering by stabbing, tormenting or burning the host. It was said that such was the intensity of their hatred, that when the host shed blood, emitted voices or took to flight, the Jews were not deterred.

The charge of host desecration was leveled against Jews over all the Christian world, frequently bringing large scale massacre.

So, if the concept of ‘communion’ has no Jewish root, where did the Church’s ritual originate?

In the second century CE, the Roman Ch-rch officially rejected all Jewish custom and Law, stating that Christianity had nothing in common with the Jews. In order to accommodate pagans into the new Roman Empire religion, the practices and rituals of the Mystery Religions were modified to suit Christianity. Let us take a look at the origins of the "Communion Ritual" in the Mystery Religions of Babylon and Greece:

The Ritual of Communion was a ritual called 'Omophagia'. In the Greek mysteries, Dionysus (or Bacchus - his Babylonian counterpart), was one of the main deities. His birth was celebrated on December 25. He was the god of wine. His followers, called “Bacchants” , celebrated the communion ritual of Dionysus by crushing the fruit of the vine and drinking the scarlet lifeblood pressed from its flesh. They also dismembering the animal which represented Dionysus (the bull), and worshipers would tear the bull to pieces with their hands and teeth. By practicing “Omophagia” (the dismemberment of the sacrificial victim and eating the flesh and drinking the blood), it was believed the worshiper absorbed the nature, or life of the g-d into his own. Thus, having consumed the flesh of the bull and the wine representing Dionysus, the worshipers took on his power and character. This was a communion in the g-d's own body and blood - to become like the g-d, they had to consume the g-d.

The second century Ch-rch took this concept and adapted it to ‘Jesus’. For this reason, the miracle of communion was that the symbols of ‘Jesus’, the bread and wine, were believed to literally become his flesh and blood. This is called "transubstantiation", and is a belief of Catholics to this day.

Although the Protestant Ch-rch rejected ‘transubstantiation’, they kept the communion ritual, declaring that in the bread and wine, the believer partakes spiritually in the flesh and blood of the g-d. There are three main doctrines of the Communion rite within Christianity:

1. The Roman Catholic Ch-rch teaches that the wafer and wine of the Sacrament become the actual flesh and blood of Christ (Transubstantiation).

2. The Lutheran Ch-rch teaches that the flesh and blood of Christ are consumed in and with the bread and wine. This doctrine is called Consubstantiation.

3. The Calvinists say that the bread and wine give those who partake of them a spiritual participation of the flesh and blood of Christ.

It has been a common practice of non-Catholic denominations to simply ‘spiritualize’ Catholic doctrines. However, the belief still remains, that by either literally or spiritually partaking in the body and blood of the 'g-d', the believer receives the very life of the g-d.

In the Jewish faith, there is no ritual where a worshiper literally eats a symbol of G-d in order to ‘receive Him’. We are transformed only by the Ruach (Spirit of G-d) in the observance of the Commandments.

If this is the case, then what did Yeshua mean when he used the symbolism of bread and wine and flesh and blood in reference to himself? Let’s begin by taking a look at Yeshua’s words while partaking of his ‘last’ meal with his disciples, before he died:

“And he took bread and gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them and said, ‘This is my body, which is given for your sake; this do in remembrance of me” Luke 22:19.

Most of us know, that at this time Yeshua was having a Passover Seder with his disciples. What piece of bread did he take, describing it as “my body”? He took the Afikomen; not just any piece of matzah, but the piece which was broken and hidden at the start of the Seder, and compared this to his body. This was UNLEAVENED bread, signifying the sinlessness of Messiah. It is only at the Passover Seder, held on the Eve of Nissan 14, that the Afikomen is eaten. The Torah clearly states that we are to remember our redemption by eating unleavened bread at the Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread. This is the only time at which we are commanded by G-d to do this. Yeshua is the unleavened bread. For this reason he said, “Do this (keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread/Passover) in remembrance of me.”

The Afikomen also has many other symbollic purposes. It is broken in two, pierced with a knife, wrapped in a white cloth, and hidden from the children. At the end of the meal, the Afikomen is searched for by the children and when found it is brought to the Father of the household, who then gives the child a small reward in return. What an amazing picture of Y'shua!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Often at a ‘Communion service’ leavened bread is used. Leaven represents sin; Messiah is 'the sinless one'. It is the anti-messiah who is called the 'man of sin'.

When the term “breaking bread” is used in the Brit Chadasha writings, it is either in context of the Passover Seder, or the weekly community meal. We already addressed the “communal meal” in Acts 2, now let us take a look at the following passages:

In 1 Corinthians 10:14-22, there are two issues which Shaul addresses:

1. The sanctity of the Passover as being a meal for 'the redeemed' (the Body).

2. The prohibition of partaking in ‘pagan meals'.

It seems that the Corinthians were attending the Passover Seder and then attending the pagan festivals as well. Shaul says it is an offense to G-d to mix the two. Verse 21: “You cannot drink the cup of our Lord and the cup of devils; you cannot be partakers of the table of our L-rd and of the table of devils.” This is a common problem among Gentile believers, and Jewish ‘Messianics’, even to this day. Many like to attend the Biblical Festivals, but also continue in the pagan ones as well. Shaul stresses the importance of the “community” of G-d as being a “set apart” body: v17, “For just as the loaf of bread is one, so we are all one body; for we are all partakers of that one bread.” There can be no mixture.

.... to be continued....
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hix

simchat_torah

Got Torah?
Feb 23, 2003
7,345
433
45
San Francisco, CA
Visit site
✟9,917.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Continued....

The whole of I Corinthians 5 is about the Passover Seder. Shaul says that those deliberately engaged in sin are not to partake of the Passover. The Passover is the only Festival of HaShem where only the observant can attend. The Corinthians were allowing just anyone to attend and the ‘leaven’ (sin) among them was not being removed. Shaul stresses that those who continued in their sin were not to participate in the Seder. The Seder is to be celebrated without 'leaven' (sin) v7,8. It is Torah law that the ‘body’ is to be judged correctly. Shaul says that we are not to keep non-believers out at all times, but only in the context of the Seder: verse 10, “I do not mean that you should separate completely from all the immoral people of the world..... verse 11 “but with such a person, you must not break bread.”

Again in 1 Corinthians 11:26-31, Shaul reinforces the Torah command that "no uncircumcised person may eat of the Passover". It seems that this command was not being taken seriously and non observant people were partaking. For this reason, as the Torah also warns, they were dying or becoming sick. This is what the Torah calls the punishment of 'Kareth' - when God executes punishment on a person who violates the Commandment in a hidden manner.

The above passages bear no relevance to a “Communion service” The term “breaking of bread” is purely a reference to either the Passover Seder, or just having a meal. Any other ritual, is simply not “breaking bread” in the Jewish context.

Having said this, what was Yeshua referring to when he said, "Unless you eat my body and drink my blood you have not life within you?”

Yeshua’s very words are found in Jewish Kabbalistic writings. Keeping in mind that Yeshua is the LIVING TORAH, let us read the following excerpt in that context:

“... The Torah is clothed in the soul and intellect of a person, and is absorbed in them, and is called 'bread' and 'food' of the soul. For just as physical bread nourishes the body as it is absorbed internally, in his very inner self, where it is transformed into blood and flesh of his flesh, whereby he lives and exists - so too, it is with the knowledge of the Torah and its comprehension by the souls of the person who studies it well, with a concentration of his intellect, until the Torah is absorbed by his intellect and is united with it and they become one. This becomes nourishment for the soul, and its inner life from the Giver of Life, the blessed En Sof (the Eternal G-d). This is the meaning of the verse, 'Yea, Thy Torah is within my inward parts.”

In Yochanan 6: 47-57 Yeshua said the following, referring to himself as Torah: (parenthesis mine)

"I am the living bread (Torah) that came down from heaven. If anyone eats this bread (Torah), he will live forever. This bread is my flesh (Yeshua is Torah in the flesh), which I will give for the life of the world.... v53: Yeshua said to them, 'I tell you the truth, unless you can eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood (Yeshua is fully consumed Torah), you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh (Torah) is real food and my blood (Torah) is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me (Torah) will live because of me."

Yeshua is the fullness of wisdom, knowledge and understanding. He is the full COMPREHENSION (fulfillment) of Torah. If we fully absorb Torah, so that it becomes to us as flesh and blood, we will have eternal life. As the Sages say, “The scrolls of the Torah may be destroyed, but its spirit is immortal and indestructible.

He is TORAH in the Flesh.

Shalom,
Yafet.

p.s. the above is borrowed largely from a paper written by Luana Fabri, called "Breaking of Bread- the Jewish Understanding".
 
Upvote 0

Ruhama

25 'הושע ב
Feb 5, 2003
647
17
44
Visit site
✟891.00
Faith
Messianic
Oh gosh...

Trying to keep track of everything you're saying here and respond at the same time, my brain hurts, lol...

Well first of all I'd like to say that the Bacchae were ...freaky. Very freaky. Though it's common for bizarre practices to be found in pretty much every culture of that time and finding one similarity among them all says little to me. The worshipers of Cybele went round emasculating themselves, but since that doesn't have any ressemblance to early Christians you don't hear of it. So... it is possible that this Mystery affected the introduction of the communion, but I am unconvinced.

I find your comments on the Corinthians verses fascinating. Thanks for sharing them!
 
Upvote 0

simchat_torah

Got Torah?
Feb 23, 2003
7,345
433
45
San Francisco, CA
Visit site
✟9,917.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
I read the entire "messianic communion" thread. However, I felt that I couldn't post under that thread for two reasons: 1) there was too much to address (I know, a pathetic excuse) 2) My ascertation of 'communion' was drastically different and thusly demanded a seperate topic...

Anywho...

Primarily what can be shown without question is that what was a later post implied definition of 'communion' is actually Pesach (passover). What takes a little more stretching and proof is the relationship of communion to bacchus.

Considering the Catholic adoption of everyting pagan, and of course the nice little trail of evidence they have left, it isn't that difficult to prove.

Shalom Mishpochah,
Yafet.
 
Upvote 0

Ruhama

25 'הושע ב
Feb 5, 2003
647
17
44
Visit site
✟891.00
Faith
Messianic
Still, correlations and proof are different things; I won't argue that Catholicism has some skeletons in its closet for sure, but I'll need solid proof if I'm going to accept that Bacchus was the basis for the doctrine. 

Btw: I invite to you to come over to the Hebrew Chat thread. Your Hebrew seems pretty good. ;)
 
Upvote 0

simchat_torah

Got Torah?
Feb 23, 2003
7,345
433
45
San Francisco, CA
Visit site
✟9,917.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Bah, my Hebrew blows... lol... I'm still learning.

I can pronounce pretty much everything (though I have to refer to some of the vowel points on a chart once in awhile) and I can tell you whether a word is a noun, verb, plural, blah blah blah...
but I don't know half of what it all means...

Sure, I know almost every common saying, phrase, blessing, etc...
But I doubt I'd be able to hold much of a full conversation!

err... we had a topic, right?
uhhh... yeah, Bacchus... Well, essentially there is historical proof that a certain sect of popes and bishops were 'bacchants' and ironically it was directly at that time frame in history which the specific doctrine of the body in 'communion/eucharist' evolved.... that the body of the g-d became one with the flesh that they consumed, and thusly received power from this 'g-d flesh'.

but I'd have to pull out some dusty history books from my boxes (I just recently moved a month ago and I'm still living in boxes! AHHHH, I hate that)

But I've read quite a bit online as well about this topic, but I prefer to give actual book references than online ones...

I'm sure you can find quite a bit in a google search if you are so inclined.

Shalom aleichem,
Yafet.
 
Upvote 0

panterapat

Praise God in all things!
Jun 4, 2002
1,673
39
66
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟9,767.00
Faith
Catholic
simchat_torah,

I am Catholic and fully acknowledge that Judism is our Father faith. I believe that Catholicism is the fulfillment of Judism but we are brethern and worship the same God, the God of Abraham. The story of our Eucharist starts with the first Passover meal and continues in the Sedar to the Last Supper.

You mentioned the Torah being the bread of life. Yes, the beginning of St. John's gospel states, "The word was with God and the Word was God." The Torah, being the Word of God, is certainly embodied in the Eucharist. Jesus stated that he didn't come to abolish the Law but to fulfill the Law.
He cannot, in my belief, be a prophet. Jesus was either the Son of God or He was a demented liar.

Of course we can agree to disagree on this point. I don't mean to create division. You are my brethern in God. Our God is one God, the God of Israel.

Patrick
ps: I found your post to be very interesting.
 
Upvote 0

simchat_torah

Got Torah?
Feb 23, 2003
7,345
433
45
San Francisco, CA
Visit site
✟9,917.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Patrick,

I accept Y'shua (jesus) as Moshiach (messiah).... he was definately more than a prophet.

However, the scriptures referring to "the L-rd's table" are a Jewish idiom of the first century referring to the Passover Seder. No where was the instruction given to create a seperate ceremony aside from the passover celebration. I believe that the fullness of the wine and bread are seen in the entire ceremony of pesach (passover). As one progresses through the evening the see the trials that Y'shua went through, they see prophetically the ressurection, and they see many many other teachings.

Anyway, just a couple more cents to toss in the pot...
Yours truly,
Yafet.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Talmid HaYarok

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2003
475
10
Semi-Nomad
Visit site
✟702.00
Faith
Messianic
That Christianity had nothing in common with the Jews came from the first century Sanhedrins which wanted Rome to persecute Christians and Nazarenes as a "new religion". Since under Roman law ancient religions could not be persecuted or made illegal, but new ones could. This backfired on them because during the Jewish revolts they spared the Christians and Nazarenes (after the Nazarenes abandoned the first Jewish revolt during the siege of Jerusalem) because they didn't view them as Jews.

Although there was a lot of anti-semitism in the early Latin church, it didn't really become systematic among Christians till Constantine seized power and legalized Christianity, so long as all Jews and everything Jewish was expelled from it.  :(  The same Roman emperor decreed that Nazarenes were no longer to take part in any church council and officially formed the Nicean council without them.

I agree with everything else you said about the Passover though, and might disagree on "Pagan holidays". I believe we can participate and worship the Lord on those days and even with Gentiles in their traditions sometimes. Just as how in the Corinthians verses you referred to its okay to eat meat that came from an Idol sacrifice, so long as your are not participating in the idolatry. In other words I'll attend an Easter service, but the moment I hear something about rabbits or eggs I'll up and walk out.

Same as I have left Messianic Congregations because they talked too much about Israel and not about the Lord in services. Israel has a place in every Jew's heart, but that place can not supercede that of the Lord. If so even what is normally sacred can become an Idol.

I want to understand you clearly though ST. You believe in Yeshua as the Messiah, but do you or do you not believe in the Trinity?
 
Upvote 0

simchat_torah

Got Torah?
Feb 23, 2003
7,345
433
45
San Francisco, CA
Visit site
✟9,917.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
I believe we can participate and worship the Lord on those days and even with Gentiles in their traditions sometimes.

Duet. 12:30-31
"...be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their g-ds, by saying "How do these nations serve their g-ds? We will do the same. You must not worship the YHVH your G-d in their way..."
Here we can see clearly that not only are we not to worship other g-ds, but specifically we are not to worship OUR G-d in the SAME WAY. We do not worship HIM with the same practices or forms of worship... He has already laid out how we are to worship him, including 'holy days'.

Duet. 18:9&13
"When you enter the land your YHVH is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there"..."You must be blameless before the YHVH your Elohim."
Here we see that we are not to even IMITATE pagan practices. On the contrary, we are called to stive to be blameless.


Anyway, I'll post more later... too much work to do now.

Shalom,
Yafet.
 
Upvote 0

panterapat

Praise God in all things!
Jun 4, 2002
1,673
39
66
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟9,767.00
Faith
Catholic
I am a Catholic in full union with the pope. But I know that my destiny and the destiny of the world revolves around the Chosen People of God (The Jews). There is a seamless garment from Abraham to the faith I hold today. The Jews are my elder brethern and my fate lies with their fate.

Patrick
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

simchat_torah

Got Torah?
Feb 23, 2003
7,345
433
45
San Francisco, CA
Visit site
✟9,917.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Most Jews would not see a connection between Catholcism and Judaism. In fact, this 'seemless' connection is made up of mass slaughtering of Jews by the hands of Catholics through history... something offensive to many Jews.
 
Upvote 0

Talmid HaYarok

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2003
475
10
Semi-Nomad
Visit site
✟702.00
Faith
Messianic
Catholicism also spent over a millennia slowly removing the "Jewishness" out of practices they received from their Messianic forbears.

The Eucharist is a perfect example, while in essence you practice the Seder. All the terms and references were intentionally changed so as to remove the "Jewish connection".

I do not however view the Catholics as heretical because of it (as some protestants do), just merely having inherited the sin of anti-semitism along with many other traditions from the Romans.

Thought he current Pope has done a lot to soften relations between Catholics and the Jewish people. The predominant attitude you're going to get is the one Simchat expressed; and Catholics need to realize what caused that attitude towards them. :(

Its all very sad.
 
Upvote 0
So Talmid and Simchat, do you think it's okay to have a bread and wine on the Sabbath to remember Yeshua's sacrifice or do you view that as pointless ? Now I am talking about in the fellowship sense, not saying that the bread is Yeshua's actual body and the wine is really Yeshua's blood.

I was just asking because that's what my husband and I do to remember Yeshua's sacrifice. We have bread and wine during our Sabbath devotional time where we pray, discuss religion, and read the bible. During that time we have bread and wine too during our fellowship.

I had read in a Biblical Encyclopedia that I own that the early believers broke bread together and drank wine during fellowship and this was a common practice. Now given, I seriously don't think they considered this communion in the sense that Christians do today..but more of a Seder like meal.. but I also read they did this every time they met which was weekly.

So what do you think of that ?

Missy
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Talmid HaYarok

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2003
475
10
Semi-Nomad
Visit site
✟702.00
Faith
Messianic
Well I don't consume alcohol, so Wine is completely out.

As for communion, I'm most definitely for it. I have nothing against Catholic Eucharist celebrations either, I think its still a sacrament for them. I just think the removal of Jewish terms from these rituals and sacraments has lead them to lose many things and was done out of an attitude that lead to many problems.

Even if it isn't a communion meal, I think that people should still get together over food (potlatch, or whatever) as a way of establishing and bringing together community. After all, we are supposed to be a community and not just a group of people who sing and listen together once a week.
 
Upvote 0