I lost them :(

I've always found that the problem with "preaching the gospel" to people like JW, Mormons, and Roman Catholics is that they believe that they understand it better than you do. That's why they are trying to convert you!

When they show up with the more experienced person, you know that you are breaking down the wall. It is that person's job to "prove" you wrong in front of the person who is wavering and then get them out of your presence before you start getting through to them again.

You did well by trying, but God chooses whom he chooses. The rest cannot understand.

abacabb3 said:

True, who knows where this is heading, GOd does though. I told my wife it may be an opportunity to preach to Cambodian JWs who never heard from real Christians, simply because the JWs got to them first. We have Cambodian language Bibles (translated from the King James) and now we don't need to worry about burning any bridges. We need to ray about this and seek guidance.

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What is it about the beliefs of the JW that would prevent them from being saved, or is evidence that they can not be of the Elect? How wrong can we, as humans, be in our theology that Jesus can not or will not call us one of his?

I look at it like this. Imagine a guy has a garage full of tools, literally a tool for every task. A master craftsman looks in and sees this guy prying something loose with flat-tip screwdriver. He says, "You have a prybar in your tool box and you are using a screwdriver to pry! That's it, you cannot use tools anymore!" and he takes all the tools away.

Alternately, the master craftsman goes and gets a neighbor to go and instruct the man. So, the neighbor goes over and spends hours instructing the man on the use of a prybar. The man says, "Yeah, I get it, but the screwdriver was already in my hand. I know what I'm doing." Is he unworthy to use tools? Would the helpful neighbor spend his time better by talking to the man in the other garage who is trying to fix his lawn mower by beating on it with a 2x4?

Mormons brought me to Christ, where a lifetime of Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, and various other well-meaning Christians had failed. I did not accept their theology, but I did accept the grace that Christ demonstrated to me through them. I don't know as much about the JW, so are they at least nominally Christian?

abacabb3 said:

I hope at this point, you have rejected certain specific tenets of Mormonism, but I can understand your story. I studied ISLAM and that brought me to Christ, imagine that!.

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I never became a Mormon. I never even went their their church. I met with the missionaries every Saturday at my house for several weeks. In the end, I had to tell them no because what they were telling me did not match up with what their own D&C book said, and neither fit with what the bible said. But, after all that, I had learned that I needed Christ, so I started attending a church for the first time in 30 years. They are misguided somewhat, but the rank-and-file are not apostate or anethema.

Like the JWs, they have a distorted view of Jesus, but in most of their hearts, I believe that they do believe that Jesus is God as we do.

I won't declare that someone "denies" Christ until they go completely off the rails, with craziness such as "Jesus is a Jedi" or "Jesus and Buddha are merely incarnations of a human desire to understand the universe".

I wouldn't be a Mormon or JW for the same reasons that I wouldn't be a Roman Catholic or ELCA Lutheran or a member of the UCC. I just don't agree with enough of their beliefs and the way they act them out.

Was their life pretty wrapped up in the JW community. That could factor in as well. Leaving ones faith or theology can be a life altering step and not just spiritually.

There was a guy who was a lifelong Christian. Grandparents, parents, siblings all christian too. Married a Christian wife and raised Christian children. All his friends, his wife's friends and children's friends were Christian. But one day he started doubting his faith and eventually decided that he no longer believed. He got so he couldn't stand going to church and saw it as a waste of time. His non Christian coworker asked him why not stop going to church and explain to his family why....

Of course, even though he wanted to, he realized if he did that his whole world would change. His entire family would be devastated. So he decided to suck it up and keep going to church as changing his beliefs effected more then just his beliefs.

Maybe those JW folk had a similar problem? Did they have friends in family involved? From what I hear, JW folk don't look kindly on 'apostates' who leave their ranks.

gordRedeemed said:

Was their life pretty wrapped up in the JW community. That could factor in as well. Leaving ones faith or theology can be a life altering step and not just spiritually.

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You ain't kidding! When I left my Methodist church last spring, about half of my "friends" from that church unfriended me on Facebook within a week. I even made it a point to not post anything about my new church because I didn't want to upset anyone. Almost a year later, I only have 3 friends that that entire congregation who will have any contact with me.

abacabb3 said:

We'll have to agree to disagree. Paul called Judaizing Christians (whose differences were less profound than JWs and Mormons) anathema.

Where's JM to weigh in on this? Isn't he our forum Dad?

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Context is everything. Those Judaizing Christians were in a position to change things forever if their beliefs got a toehold in the new religion. JWs and Mormons are just two among many diverse denominations in a world filled with Christians. The only reason that they are even being discussed is that they are just so effective at evangelism, while most of us in "the True Faith" just sit and wait for visitors. If they were as good as Presbyterians at evangelism, we wouldn't even know they exist outside of the Utah/Idaho area.

abacabb3 said:

Good question.

All JWs have their lives totally wrapped up in their church. To be a member, you must attend 5 meetings a week (2 on Sunday), and you can be disfellowshipped for attending another church once, having sex in an "inappropriate way" (just use your imagination), and for more egregious sins. Disfellowshipping requires that even family members are no longer allowed to talk to you, or they will get disfellowshipped.

So yes, if you are a JW you are all in and if you're going to leave, you are also all in.

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Wow, It's sort of like the mafia, except the only way of leaving is not in a casket, but by the grace of God.

abacabb3 said:

My wife and I have been speaking to a JW for about a year (maybe longer?). We have been very patient and it appeared that the Spirit might have been doing some work (he changed congregations and started bringing a more "experienced" JW along with him, because he felt challenged by our conversations.) We essentially had an awkward break-up last night, which appears to end our opportunity to preach the Gospel to them.

To unbelievers, the Gospel is absolutely hateful. It's kind of weird if you think about it. If we look at ourselves honestly, we are depraved, bad people. The Gospel is good news, because it is the only news that offers us hope.

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Its God's will that your conversations ended with them. Let His plan unfold. You've done all you can, and now it's up to the Holy Spirit. Remember, you may have planted the seed, God may have another to come along to water it, but it's up to God to make it grow!

BryanW92 said:

They are misguided somewhat, but the rank-and-file are not apostate or anethema.

Like the JWs, they have a distorted view of Jesus, but in most of their hearts, I believe that they do believe that Jesus is God as we do.

I won't declare that someone "denies" Christ until they go completely off the rails, with craziness such as "Jesus is a Jedi" or "Jesus and Buddha are merely incarnations of a human desire to understand the universe".

I wouldn't be a Mormon or JW for the same reasons that I wouldn't be a Roman Catholic or ELCA Lutheran or a member of the UCC. I just don't agree with enough of their beliefs and the way they act them out.

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It's what you hold about the GOSPEL that makes you a Christian or not. That is how Paul distinguishes it, anyway. Mormons and JWs are cults. Neither is Christian simply because it mentions Christ, and both are cults because they hold to another gospel, which is no gospel at all.

thatbrian said:

It's what you hold about the GOSPEL that makes you a Christian or not. That is how Paul distinguishes it, anyway. Mormons and JWs are cults. Neither is Christian simply because it mentions Christ, and both are cults because they hold to another gospel, which is no gospel at all.

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Gospel means "good news". Is their good news that much different? Do they not believe that Christ came to earth, lived a perfect life, died on the cross, rose again, ascended to heaven, and will come again; and that through faith in him, our sins are forgiven? Yes, they appear to be a lot more works-based than we like, but do they explain their works as an outpouring of their faith? Probably. Just like us when do works.

Arminians say that Calvinists corrupt the gospel and make God into a murderer and humans into robots. We say that Arminians have a weakling God who impotently sits around waiting for us to choose him. Protestants disagree with Catholics on fundamentals, and Roman Catholics disagree with Eastern Orthodox Catholics.

I chose to be Calvinist because it is the framework for the gospel that makes the most sense to me. I know Methodists who say the exact same thing about their framework. I try not to declare people "non-Christian" because they do not use the exact same framework as me.

It isn't us who saves or loses them.... as long as we give them God's Word, He will work on them.

One thing that is particular with this type of group is that they aren't really taught how to study God's Word for themselves. They are taught a certain step by step form of talking to someone to have them believe the way they do. You'll notice this especially when you take them off topic, they can't handle it and go right back to the formatted dissertation they have learned.

That's one reason they bring the more knowledgeable person with them the next time.

However, it's not that different a method than what many Christians teach. lol

When dealing with anyone who is not obviously open to the Gospel, always and ONLY talk to them about WHO JESUS IS. To try and explain or answer their questions otherwise is futile. They must believe Who Jesus is before they can accept anything else. Besides, God's Word says that they can't understand anyway...until they believe in Jesus.

Not all will be saved; not all will accept Jesus. WE don't know who will so that's why we tell and invite everyone!

abacabb3, I'm sorry that your JWs have stopped coming around. Recently mine did as well after nearly a year of regular meeting. Ultimately we should both praise and thank the Lord for giving us the opportunity to share the gospel with them. And we need to keep regularly praying for them. Often they don't respond right away. Some take years to start examining what they have been shown from the Scriptures. And some will respond later when other Christians also witness to them. Many will simply harden their hearts and carry on in unbelief.

For any who may be confused or unaware: JWs and Mormons are most definitely not Christians. They subscribe to the brainwashing of very manipulative cults that teach a works-based salvation. They may claim grace, but if you really dig into what they mean by the word, you will find it's not what Scripture teaches. The same goes for many other words and phrases they use, like ransom, atonement, lord, salvation, etc. Don't be fooled! These people are caught in lies and deception and are headed for eternal torment in hell if they do not turn to the real Christ.

A few differences to be aware of. These are things that they don't tend to bring up when first entering into conversation with you:

Mormons believe that all souls are eternally preexisting spirits waiting for a human body. They are extremely polytheistic, believing that all men have the potential to become gods just like Jehovah (Jesus) and Elohim (God the Father), ruling over their own planets and populating them with their wives. They believe that Elohim populated earth with his many wives and had sex with his spirit child Mary in order to have Jesus. Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers. No one really goes to hell, but instead a variety of levels of heaven depending on whether they are Mormons, good Mormons, good people, bad people, etc. They believe the Bible is correct only so far as their other books (Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, etc.) interpret it. There are many other differences, but those are a few that should convince you they do not believe in the true Jesus of Scripture. They also don't consider us to actually be Christians and may admit this if you press them on it. They consider anyone who subscribes to orthodox historic Christian doctrine to be apostate.

Jehovahs Witnesses believe that Jesus is really the archangel Michael, and not God. Like the Mormons, they reject the Trinity and consider the doctrine to be heretical and pagan. They believe hell is only for Satan and demons, and that unbelieving people only cease to exist when they die. They also believe that even good JWs can lose their salvation in the next life, which is only a "paradise on earth". They believe that only a literal 144,000 JWs (most of whom are already dead now) can be be born again and see heaven. They themselves, though they like to talk a lot about the kingdom, do not believe they will personally ever see it. The JW religion was developed by a man who grew up in a Presbyterian church and eventually rejected it because he despised both the idea of hell and of election. He was heavily influenced by some Seventh Day Adventists that he came into contact with, particularly because of their focus on prophesies. They also don't consider us to actually be Christians and may admit this if you press them on it. They consider anyone who subscribes to orthodox historic Christian doctrine to be apostate.

Both the JW and Mormon cults have a long history of fanatical false prophesies, which they prefer not to focus on because they are an embarrassment. In the past decade or so, both have started teaching their followers a more "seeker friendly", "watered down" kind of religion so that it's easier to sell and believe. Mormons in particular these days don't seem to know a whole lot about their religion's history or the finer points of their own doctrine. So it's important to be sensitive to this and not just throw it in their faces, but instead gently show them the differences.

For anyone who would like to know more details about the differences between their doctrines and Christian doctrine, please watch the two videos below. They are very helpful for understanding these vital issues. I don't share this to try and bash members of these religions, but to point out these people are lost in false, dead, works-based beliefs, and desperately need a Saviour. They are every bit as lost as the friendly Atheist or Muslim. And worse, they think they know the truth and hold to Scripture, when they have in fact fallen for lies.

Mormons:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzXazxES4mk

Here's a great video of a Christian witnessing to a couple of Mormons:
Video Footage! Talking to Mormon Missionaries On The Street! - YouTube


Jehovah's Witnesses:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Mr-Q1mRkUc

I suppose there is a better place to discuss this... ? However, the Mormon neighbors I had said that they believe everyone can become a god...and that is what Adam did (the 1st Adam) ..he rose high enough morally to become as God and returned in flesh to have sex with Mary and thus created Jesus (the 2nd Adam).

At that time (it was many years ago) those in the mormon church had to sign over all their possessions to the church, and owned nothing themselves. When I was in Missouri---a professional therapist--(I'm sure the data is somewhere on the net by now) the majority of child abuse cases came out of Mormon households. That's the stress of the church put upon them, imo.

I was never bothered by Jehovah Witnesses because I fly an American Flag out front. In the past, they were taught that people like me were already "too far gone" to save lol. The last few years though, they have come to my door... I call the police because they are breaking the law (I live in a private gated community)... they don't care because they don't believe that man's law applies to them and they do not keep it.

But there's no real difference spiritually with these two groups and any one else who is still without Jesus. Speak about WHO Jesus is and never leave that topic until they really begin to listen as the Holy Spirit works on their hearts. Otherwise, shake the dust off your feet and move on---there are too many people who WANT to hear about Jesus to waste time on those who don't.

It is also important to remember that with cults like this, leaving is a huge sacrifice because they are almost always completely shunned and shut out by their community and even their families. So if/when they come to the truth, they need a lot of support and help through the process. Many run back to the cult even once they know the truth because they can't cope with the loneliness leaving would create. And especially those who have been raised in that lifestyle have a very hard time learning to live away from it.