Is the Pentecostal Church becoming New Age?

Dave-W · Mar 20, 2015

Oscarr said:
Immature as they were, I think they wanted to glorify God, but they wanted to get right away from the Calvinistic attitudes of their church backgrounds.

Calvinistic? Really? Almost ALL the adherents of early pentecostalism were from the Wesleyan Holiness movement which was overwhelmingly Arminian.

Dave-W · Mar 20, 2015

Oscarr - I have been away from the pentecostal circles for a long time. And I agree that the early 20th century was infancy for pentecostalism.

What I do not like is the branch that went "word of faith" which turned God into serving OUR OWN interests rather than us serving HIM.

As to hearing God and experience being the seeds of New Ageism, I would counter that they may have been co-opted by New Agers but they rightfully belong to US as children of the King.

The person that really established the bar on Pentecostal doctrine was the late teacher Derek Prince. To the degree a church will follow his doctrinal stance will (in my mind) say how well that church will grow its congregants into mature believers, equipped in the Holy Spirit; both in supernatural gifting and mature fruit.

dms1972 · Mar 20, 2015

Out of all of them, it was Dr Lake who wrote a manual of divine healing to train a team of Divine Healing Technicians who went on to have amazing results.

Slightly off topic: Just when I seen this name mentioned. On another website once I had mentioned a different Lake - Frank Lake, and someone later had commented to me saying there were other approaches than the John Lake type.

I didn't know who they meant, and I just had to guess they maybe mixed the name up.

Frank Lake was a British psychiatrist however, formerly a medical missionary, who trained clergy in the UK. (wrote a massive book called: Clinical Theology) He integrated some insights from depth psychology and mystics like John of the Cross in a Christian approach. Not a 'faith healer' as such, though he was interested in the ministry of Agnes Sanford. Leanne Payne quotes him a bit in her books.

I know your not confusing the two but that both did fairly similiar work makes me wonder if they are ever mixed up, if maybe one is more well known to people.

Just mentioning, don't mean to derail the discussion. But this was the first time I seen it explained who John Lake was. So its helpful to know these are two different people.

Coincidently Frank Lake's father was also called John, but the two are not connected in any way to my knowledge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Lake

Tobias · Mar 20, 2015

Oscarr said:
What you need to do to understand what Baal was is to look it up on Wikipedia. There you will see the difference between Baal and the LORD.

But the question you ask is how do we know we are following the living God and not some dead religion with a powerless God? My answer is that we need to believe the Bible. The Bible is the final authority. Now, parts of the Bible are written for us, and others, to us. The Epistles in the New Testament are written to us as New Covenant Christians. If we believe what is written there, we can have the assurance that our faith is genuine.

I believe that signs and wonders do not necessarily prove our Christian faith. There are such things as false signs and wonders that set out to deceive and to lead people away from Christ. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, Abraham tells the rich man who wanted someone to come back from the dead and go and warn his brothers. Abraham tells him that if they will not believe Moses and the Prophets, they will never believe even if someone came back from the dead to warn them.

Psalm 119 tells us that the written Word of God is a light to our path and a lamp to our feet. It is our guide. If we want the assurance that we are following a powerful God, then we are to believe what the Holy Spirit says to us from the written Word, especially the New Testament Epistles. In the Gospels we are introduced to God in the Person of Jesus Christ. In Him we see the nature and character of God - who He really is. He is our model for life and ministry.

Without an attitude of faith in the written Word of God, there is no foundation for believing that we are saved, or that we have any relationship with an almighty and powerful God who is our Father and that we are His sons and daughters - His family. Signs and wonders only are sign posts to point us to the Word, which in itself is the reflection of the Logos, the Living Word who is Christ Himself. The scripture says that whoever comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. He also says that if you seek Him with all your heart, you will find Him.

But if you sit back, not believing what the Bible says to you, and being doubtful, then you will get nothing, as James says, he who doubts is like something that waves in the wind, and therefore cannot expect to receive anything from God.

Ok, but what if the act of declaring your unwavering, undying faith in the Bible... isn't the answer to this problem?

The Pharisees seemed to believe in the Bible. Jesus taught the disciples differently though. He showed them the power of the Holy Spirit, and they learned to discern the True Spirit of God from the fake by experiencing the real thing.

The Pharisees believed "The Word", and because the very best Bible scholars in the land determined that Jesus had failed to fulfill all the prophecies concerning the Messiah, they felt comfortable putting Him to death.

Oth it was discernment and faith which drove the disciples to believe in Jesus. To believe that he was not a heretic when he said "I am the Son of God", while all the Bible scholars hissed in disapproval. The disciples felt the pure presence of the Holy Spirit, and wanted more of Him, despite what the respected and educated leaders of their religion kept trying to tell them.

Many Christians seem to have faith in only one act of God. They believe He was powerful enough to work the miracle of inspiring the Scriptures. But they don't seem to have any more faith to believe He can still do things today.

What kind of a god do we end up with, if we only accept some of the things He has done? Especially if we think the rest of His Works were done by demons...

ByTheSpirit · Mar 20, 2015

Just an interjection, Psalm 119:105 does not say the WRITTEN Word of God will light our path. It just says His Word is a lamp and light...

Jesus is the Word of God. If you do not expect him to speak to you outside the pages of a book, then he won't. He does only what you faith allows him to do.

Presbyterian Continuist · Mar 20, 2015

DaveW-Ohev said:
Calvinistic? Really? Almost ALL the adherents of early pentecostalism were from the Wesleyan Holiness movement which was overwhelmingly Arminian.

I stand corrected on that point. I have said the same thing myself on previous threads!

Presbyterian Continuist · Mar 20, 2015

DaveW-Ohev said:
Oscarr - I have been away from the pentecostal circles for a long time. And I agree that the early 20th century was infancy for pentecostalism.

What I do not like is the branch that went "word of faith" which turned God into serving OUR OWN interests rather than us serving HIM.

I think that the Word of Faith movement started with good Biblical principles, but like anything that starts out from a genuine revelation about believing and acting on God's Word, it has gone over the edge as far as how and what can be named and claimed. I can claim healing for someone through the Word of God, but I can't claim a big house and a flash car in the same way. One is a compassion for the sick, which mirrors the attitude of Jesus, and the other is just plain carnal greed.

As to hearing God and experience being the seeds of New Ageism, I would counter that they may have been co-opted by New Agers but they rightfully belong to US as children of the King.

Yes. I would say that the majority of Pentecostals are Bible believing lovers of Christ who just want to serve Him the best they can. But in the same way that some of the WOF folks have crossed the boundaries, so some in the P/C movement have done the same in their search for a deeper spiritual experience. There are two extremes - being so bogged down in the written scriptures that any physical or emotion experience is suspect, to relying on the physical manifestations and putting the written Word to one side. This is the story of the Church from the time of Acts.

The person that really established the bar on Pentecostal doctrine was the late teacher Derek Prince. To the degree a church will follow his doctrinal stance will (in my mind) say how well that church will grow its congregants into mature believers, equipped in the Holy Spirit; both in supernatural gifting and mature fruit.

I agree with that. Derek Prince was very sound in his teaching. I read his biography and was very impressed with him. For a while he was connected with that iniquitous Shepherding/Discipling movement, but he soon saw the error in that and separated himself from it. His reputation did suffer somewhat through that for a while, but people quickly realised that he saw his error and quickly corrected himself. His teaching is firmly Bible-based and he has a clear view of the distinction between the Old and New Covenants.

Presbyterian Continuist · Mar 20, 2015

Tobias said:
Ok, but what if the act of declaring your unwavering, undying faith in the Bible... isn't the answer to this problem?

Absolutely! That is the answer to every problem.

The Pharisees seemed to believe in the Bible. Jesus taught the disciples differently though. He showed them the power of the Holy Spirit, and they learned to discern the True Spirit of God from the fake by experiencing the real thing.

Yes. They did profess their belief in the Torah, quite sincerely in most cases. But Jesus exposed them in that while they theoretically expressed belief, their practice was quite different. That is why Jesus called them hypocrites. This brings out the point that we do what we really believe. We can say we believe in the truth of the New Testament gospels and epistles, but we believe only those parts we actually put into practice. So, if I believe that the scripture is requiring me to live a holy life and I put that into practice in my own life, it shows that I truly believe that holy living is a requirement for Christians. But if I say I believe in divine healing but never lay hands on any sick people, it shows that I don't really believe in divine healing at all, because I don't do any of it. So, even though the Pharisees saw the real thing through Jesus, because they never put into practice themselves what Jesus said and did, it showed that they still did not believe Him.

The Pharisees believed "The Word", and because the very best Bible scholars in the land determined that Jesus had failed to fulfill all the prophecies concerning the Messiah, they felt comfortable putting Him to death.

When you say "the word" you are referring to the Torah, because that was what they had. You can't compare that with the Chriistian's belief in the Word. The Pharisees were unconverted Jews, and therefore were not born again.

Oth it was discernment and faith which drove the disciples to believe in Jesus. To believe that he was not a heretic when he said "I am the Son of God", while all the Bible scholars hissed in disapproval. The disciples felt the pure presence of the Holy Spirit, and wanted more of Him, despite what the respected and educated leaders of their religion kept trying to tell them.

While the disciples were with Him they were often confused and had many questions about Him. Peter recognised that He was the Son of God through a direct revelation. Jesus knew that they had problems believing in Him because He asked John, "have you been so long with me that you still don't understand", etc. It was only after the Day of Pentecost when they got baptised in the Holy Spirit that they were changed into the bold Apostles that they became. We have to remember that the disciples during the time they were with Jesus were unconverted Jews just like everyone else, so they would not have had the spiritual discernment that they would have developed after Pentecost.

Many Christians seem to have faith in only one act of God. They believe He was powerful enough to work the miracle of inspiring the Scriptures. But they don't seem to have any more faith to believe He can still do things today.

That would be right. I think that it is a lack of good, accurate teaching about where we stand with Christ.

What kind of a god do we end up with, if we only accept some of the things He has done? Especially if we think the rest of His Works were done by demons...

When a person is baptised in the Holy Spirit, He teaches them the ways of God. If a professing believer says they only accept some of the things God has done, there has to be questions of whether that person is truly born again and filled with the Spirit. It is possible for a person to be very religious and be indistinguisible from a genuine believer and yet be unsaved. Getting religion and professing Christianity does not save a person in the same way that I can do a bit of training to be a 747 pilot, put on the uniform and say that I am a pilot, but if I am not suitable trained and qualified and can fly the plane, my profession is useless and anyone trusting me to get in the pilot's seat would be taking their life in their hands. Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart, and it also says that the foundation of God stands sure, God knows those who are His. There will be people who are very religious, who would put us to shame concerning the way they live and work for the church, but when they come and stand before God on the last day, God will tell them to depart from Him because He never knew them. So we all need to closely examine ourselves to make sure that we are in the true faith.

For those who call the works of Jesus the work of demons are coming very close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit, and as Jesus says, there is no forgiveness for them. Anyone professing Christianity who calls any of the works of Jesus, and any of the works of those who are representing Jesus in our time, are showing that they are totally phony through the words of their own mouths. Unless they repent and truly get right with God, they may find themselves being rejected of God in spite of their Christian profession.

Presbyterian Continuist · Mar 20, 2015

ByTheSpirit said:
Just an interjection, Psalm 119:105 does not say the WRITTEN Word of God will light our path. It just says His Word is a lamp and light...

What you need to understand is that the Psalm was written by a person under the Old Covenant. The person had no conception of the Word of God being Jesus. He would have had only the Torah to work from. So it is certain that when he was referring to the word, he was referring to the written scriptures available to him at the time. There is a danger of inserting Christian principles into Old Testament scripture.

Jesus is the Word of God. If you do not expect him to speak to you outside the pages of a book, then he won't. He does only what you faith allows him to do.

This is the New Covenant way of viewing the word of God. The word has been made flesh and lives in us. We are filled with the fullness of Christ. We have been anointed, or in other words, appointed to be children of God, brothers and sisters of Jesus, and because of that, we are filled with the Holy Spirit, who is our teacher and guide. Jesus can speak to us in many ways, and the reading of scripture is just one way. I said the reading of Scripture, because when Jesus speaks to us in whatever way He chooses, He will not say anything that is not clearly set out already in the written scriptures. There are parts of the Bible that are written for us and therefore are there for our education. Other parts of the Bible are written to us, such as the Epistles. What we have to consider when we study a passage of the Bible is, who is it written to, why is it written, and how should we as New Covenant folks apply it?

Problems arise when we try and apply Old Covenant scriptures to ourselves. In the Old Covenant, people prayed that God would come and visit them and anoint them for the specific that they were called to do. In the New Covenant, we have the Holy Spirit living in us, so the anointing abides with us permanently and does not come and go. We can go right into ministry without asking for a special anointing. There is no special anointing for what we are called to do because we already have the anointing. So, if a person asks for an anointing to heal the sick for instance, God will come back to him and say, "What do you mean by asking for something you already have?" Also, we don't have to ask God at the start of our meetings to come and visit us and for the Holy Spirit to come down and hover over us as many Pentecostals and Charismatics do. We bring Jesus into the meeting when we arrive, because He is living in us. Do we need to go up to bring Christ down, or to go down to bring Christ up? No, He is with us and is actually within us (my paraphrase). So as soon as we walk into a church meeting, we are the atmosphere. We don't need a worship time to try and work up an atmosphere so God can move. All we need is to believe that when two or three are gathered together, Jesus is in the midst of us, and then to act and minister on the basis of that promise.

So, Jesus can speak to us through dreams, visions, the inner voice of the heart, through preachers, through Christian brothers and sisters. There are no limits to that. But the devil can do that as well. So what is the way we can tell one from the other. It is all in what is said when we hear the voice or see the vision or dream. Is what is being said consistent with what is taught right through the Bible? If not, then it does not come through the Holy Spirit. For example, the false Old Testament prophets were exposed as such because their prophecies encouraged people to go after idols and false gods, contrary with what God was saying through Moses. The false prophets were saying that everything was okay when the true prophets were say that the judgment of God was coming on Israel because of their idolatories.

So, if we get a vision, dream or voice telling to do something that is not consistent with what is written in the New Testament epistles, we know that the voice comes from the world, flesh or the devil and not from the Holy Spirit. So whatever way God speaks to us, the written Scriptures are the final authority for what is true or false.

I don't agree with the last sentence. A lot of people have been healed while having no faith at all. This is usually the case when we minister healing to unconverted people who have no faith. Remember John Wesley's horse that got healed of lameness. Did it have faith to be healed?

Biblicist · Mar 20, 2015

Having printed out two of your posts due to my limited availability with time which allowed me to give them the time that they deserved, I then come across the following ridiculous statement which left me speechless:

Oscarr said:
You don't sound like a person who speaks in tongues, so I won't bother to deal any further with that topic. I have done so quite fully in another thread here.

Maybe this reflects the limitations of a forum such as this but as I have been at the forefront of Pneumatic theology on this forum for around three years with my emphasis with encouraging all new converts to quickly allow themselves to speak in tongues I then come across your silly remark.

Is it that you are feeling a bit under pressure with this topic or do you simply fail to read threads that interest you?

Maybe this is a good time for me to leave the forum either for another 8 months or maybe for good!

Presbyterian Continuist · Mar 20, 2015

Biblicist2 said:
Having printed out two of your posts due to my limited availability with time which allowed me to give them the time that they deserved, I then come across the following ridiculous statement which left me speechless:

Maybe this reflects the limitations of a forum such as this but as I have been at the forefront of Pneumatic theology on this forum for around three years with my emphasis with encouraging all new converts to quickly allow themselves to speak in tongues I then come across your silly remark.

Is it that you are feeling a bit under pressure with this topic or do you simply fail to read threads that interest you?

Maybe this is a good time for me to leave the forum either for another 8 months or maybe for good!

Please don't get offended over some of the things I say. I am a stirrer of the pot to stimulate discussion. I learn through these discussions and I will always stand corrected when I am wrong, which I discover on a regular basis.

Even though I am of fairly advanced age and in a senior position in my church, I am part of a good team of men who are not backward in correcting me when I get it wrong.

I think that I got a bit weary of having to say the same things over about tongues in different threads. I am fairly passionate about the gift and I love using it as often as I can. I think that there is a lot of misunderstanding about the nature of tongues and how it should be used in the church and in a believer's private prayer life. I therefore take a very literal interpretation of Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 14. He gave that teaching because of the misuse and problems in that church. He would not have felt the need to give the teaching otherwise. This means to me that the other churches were practicing it correctly and just getting on with using it in the right way. But sometimes the best teaching comes out of problem situations when good men try to get things up the right way again.

As you know, there are all sorts of teaching about the practice of tongues - Biblical, non-Biblical, extra-Biblical and anti-Biblical. We have people speaking out in tongues in church meetings without the thought of an interpretation. We have those who use tongues to show everyone how spiritual they are. This was one of the problems in the Corinthian church.

All I am trying to do in these threads is to show what Paul actually teaches about tongues. I believe that what Paul actually says is the correct interpretation. There is no "spiritual" interpretation or subtext. What he says is what he means. So when he says that speaking in tongues without interpretation will be received as unedifying nonsense then that is what it actually is. When he says that if an unbeliever or untaught person comes in and sees people jabbering away, then he will think that they are just loopy. I have heard people say that Pentecostals are loopy for that very reason! When Paul says that it is better to speak to God at home, because when a person speaks in tongues he is speaking mysteries in the Spirit then that is what he actually means. Paul is therefore saying that there is a purpose for tongues in the church but it must be interpreted. He says also that there is a private purpose for tongues for God only.

There is no teaching in the New Testament anywhere that tongues makes a believer more powerful in other areas or that it brings a person closer to God than he already is. Paul teaches that speaking in tongues builds up the individual believer, but he doesn't say exactly how that happens. We have plenty of ideas of how that happens and if we feel built up in our faith and effectiveness for the spreading of the Gospel in that way, then that is how it is.

So, don't take things personally during these discussions. If this forum was composed with just every agreeing with each other, it would be boring and there would be nothing to write.

Oh, by the way: I wrote a booklet called "Easy Steps to Receiving Tongues" which has been my most successful one to date. I received a request from an African pastor in Kenya for more copies of it because he obtained a copy, which is remarkable seeing that New Zealand is a long way away from Kenya, and found it such a help that he wants more to benefit his fellowship and win more souls to Christ. That made my day. If people come to Christ because of what I teach about tongues, then that justifies to me making the effort to write the booklet and sending 20 copies all the way to Africa.

anewman1993 · Mar 20, 2015

Oscarr said:
Please don't get offended over some of the things I say. I am a stirrer of the pot to stimulate discussion. I learn through these discussions and I will always stand corrected when I am wrong, which I discover on a regular basis.

Even though I am of fairly advanced age and in a senior position in my church, I am part of a good team of men who are not backward in correcting me when I get it wrong.

I think that I got a bit weary of having to say the same things over about tongues in different threads. I am fairly passionate about the gift and I love using it as often as I can. I think that there is a lot of misunderstanding about the nature of tongues and how it should be used in the church and in a believer's private prayer life. I therefore take a very literal interpretation of Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 14. He gave that teaching because of the misuse and problems in that church. He would not have felt the need to give the teaching otherwise. This means to me that the other churches were practicing it correctly and just getting on with using it in the right way. But sometimes the best teaching comes out of problem situations when good men try to get things up the right way again.

As you know, there are all sorts of teaching about the practice of tongues - Biblical, non-Biblical, extra-Biblical and anti-Biblical. We have people speaking out in tongues in church meetings without the thought of an interpretation. We have those who use tongues to show everyone how spiritual they are. This was one of the problems in the Corinthian church.

All I am trying to do in these threads is to show what Paul actually teaches about tongues. I believe that what Paul actually says is the correct interpretation. There is no "spiritual" interpretation or subtext. What he says is what he means. So when he says that speaking in tongues without interpretation will be received as unedifying nonsense then that is what it actually is. When he says that if an unbeliever or untaught person comes in and sees people jabbering away, then he will think that they are just loopy. I have heard people say that Pentecostals are loopy for that very reason! When Paul says that it is better to speak to God at home, because when a person speaks in tongues he is speaking mysteries in the Spirit then that is what he actually means. Paul is therefore saying that there is a purpose for tongues in the church but it must be interpreted. He says also that there is a private purpose for tongues for God only.

There is no teaching in the New Testament anywhere that tongues makes a believer more powerful in other areas or that it brings a person closer to God than he already is. Paul teaches that speaking in tongues builds up the individual believer, but he doesn't say exactly how that happens. We have plenty of ideas of how that happens and if we feel built up in our faith and effectiveness for the spreading of the Gospel in that way, then that is how it is.

So, don't take things personally during these discussions. If this forum was composed with just every agreeing with each other, it would be boring and there would be nothing to write.

Oh, by the way: I wrote a booklet called "Easy Steps to Receiving Tongues" which has been my most successful one to date. I received a request from an African pastor in Kenya for more copies of it because he obtained a copy, which is remarkable seeing that New Zealand is a long way away from Kenya, and found it such a help that he wants more to benefit his fellowship and win more souls to Christ. That made my day. If people come to Christ because of what I teach about tongues, then that justifies to me making the effort to write the booklet and sending 20 copies all the way to Africa.

as someones stumbling around trying to figure out tongues in an area where "spirit-filled" churches have pretty much abandoned the bible and the rest don't like tongues, any way I could get a hold of one of those books? I honestly don't know if I'm speaking in tongues or making it up half the time, sometimes I'm like 'MAN, THIS IS TOTALLY GOD", and others I'm like "man, I am going to be so freaking embarrassed about this when I stand before god in heaven, cause this is completely and utterally me".

Presbyterian Continuist · Mar 21, 2015

anewman1993 said:
as someones stumbling around trying to figure out tongues in an area where "spirit-filled" churches have pretty much abandoned the bible and the rest don't like tongues, any way I could get a hold of one of those books? I honestly don't know if I'm speaking in tongues or making it up half the time, sometimes I'm like 'MAN, THIS IS TOTALLY GOD", and others I'm like "man, I am going to be so freaking embarrassed about this when I stand before god in heaven, cause this is completely and utterally me".

I will email you a copy if you send me a request to paul90@slingshot.co.nz

Dave-W · Mar 23, 2015

Oscarr said:
Derek Prince was very sound in his teaching. I read his biography and was very impressed with him. For a while he was connected with that iniquitous Shepherding/Discipling movement, but he soon saw the error in that and separated himself from it. His reputation did suffer somewhat through that for a while, but people quickly realised that he saw his error and quickly corrected himself. His teaching is firmly Bible-based and he has a clear view of the distinction between the Old and New Covenants.

I had the priviledge of sitting down with him 1 on 1 a few times back when I was in that so-called "iniquitous Shepherding/Discipling movement." It was as you described the WOF movement; which started off on the right foot but went astray somewhere along the way. Derek and Don Basham and Charles Simpson had the right idea of bringing godly order to a free-for-all community. IT was just that the power went to many peoples' heads and took it into a power trip. (I know - I was in a high level discipleship congregation for 13 years)

But as a member of a Tikkun congregation (charismatic Messianic) started by Dan Juster who was a friend of both Derek and Charles Simpson, I do know that after Derek quietly backed out of the Discipleship organization (Christian Growth Ministries) he did not abandon belief in the structure he helped set up.

That said, I find his bible teaching to still be some of the best available. And VERY applicable by all pentecostals.

There are two extremes - being so bogged down in the written scriptures that any physical or emotion experience is suspect, to relying on the physical manifestations and putting the written Word to one side. This is the story of the Church from the time of Acts.

As Derek often said:

All Spirit and no Word - you blow up
All Word and no Spirit - you dry up
Word and Spirit together - you grow up

It was part of his personal mission: The Whole Truth to the Whole Church

ToBeBlessed · Mar 23, 2015

Oscarr said:
I was converted to Christ in a Pentecostal Church in 1966. That church had a strong emphasis on getting people saved, healed, and set free from demons. It also featured tongues messages and prophecies in their worship meetings. People sang the hymns and songs with great gusto, and overall, it was fun to be in those services.

Over the years, I have noticed significant changes. Many Pentecostal churches have stopped having tongues messages and prophecies. They have more of an emphasis on Christian living than getting people saved. It seems that less people are being ministered to for healing and deliverance.

There seems to be a greater emphasis on personal counselling, improving their spiritual lives. This is bringing a greater emphasis on self-improvement, which is definitely a New Age characteristic.

Also, the application of the Word of Knowledge is worryingly similar to that practised by Psychics. Both are delving into people's lives and predicting the future. A word of knowledge in a church and a horoscope can say exactly the same thing about a person. Also, there is a greater emphasis on "voices" and "impressions" where in the past people were directed to the pages of Scripture for guidance.

Viewing a preacher as having special powers to look into the inner lives of people is more allied to psychic phenomena than Christian practice, and yet many Pentecostal and Charismatic leaders give people that impression.

Also, in the healing ministry, the emphasis is placed on a special person having supernatural powers of healing. This is New Age. No person has that power. Christians are directed to lay hands on the sick, but it is Christ who does the healing, not the person laying his hands on a sick person. There is no such thing as the power of the Holy Spirit being some sort of "electricity" that flows through a person. This is more like spiritualism that is practiced in a spiritist church.

Maybe this is why when there are healing meetings, there is a lot of ministry, but very few actual healings. It seems that the talk is still there, but the power has gone. I say this because if there are real healings of actual diseases and disabilities, the newspapers would be full of it, like they were in Wellington NZ when Smith Wigglesworth had his meetings there in 1922 and 1927.

But we don't see reports of healings in our newspapers, because they don't happen in most cases.

It has been reported that over 80 percent of current teaching about divine healing just does not work because it does not line up with Scripture.

The fault is not God's. He is still the healing God, but He will not share His glory with others, and He certainly will not identify Himself with the New Age movement in any of its forms, and if it is invading the Pentecostal church, then it is no surprise that the Holy Spirit has withdrawn.

And yet, most of the churches are like Sampson whose power disappeared when Delilah cut his hair, and he didn't realise it had gone and he went to do what he usually does to defeat the Philistines.

Perhaps many Pentecostal churches are like the Emperor with the new suit of clothes which were actually non existent but he didn't know it and everyone was afraid to admit it. Perhaps many in these churches are afraid to admit that the power of God is no longer there, and that just an empty religiosity has replaced it. They are still teaching the doctrines, but there is no power to make them real.

Food for discussion...

I agree with some of this also. I think that when people see or think others have power from the Holy Spirit that they do not perceive themselves as having, people want it. Many churches elevate the individual who seems to possess gift, not the giver of any and all gifts.

The Lord will humble His children. We had a weekend conference at church called "Be humble or Be humbled". The Lord will correct His children. I say 'be humble'.

I don't need every gift. I don't feel the need to move in every gift. His grace is sufficient for me. We need to sow where we are planted.

The fallacy is that ones work is more important than anothers. God obviously gives us what He wants us to have and we must learn to MAXIMIZE what we have been given.

We are ALL working towards God's perfect plan (emphasis on the ownership and the knowing that it is God's, not ours).

Be Humble OR
Be Humbled

Dave-W · Mar 23, 2015

ToBeBlessed said:
The Lord will humble His children. We had a weekend conference at church called "Be humble or Be humbled". The Lord will correct His children. I say 'be humble'.

Be Humble OR Be Humbled

While we are talking about Derek Prince - let me tell you his thoughts on this statement. These are close to his exact words (as best as I remember them)

Many people pray for the Lord to humble them. I say He will not do so, as His command is to humble ourselves. If we pray to be humbled, He will answer by giving us opportunity to humble ourselves. In short - He will humiliate us. We then have the choice of hardening ourselves in pride, or in humbling ourselves before Him

ToBeBlessed · Mar 23, 2015

DaveW-Ohev said:
While we are talking about Derek Prince - let me tell you his thoughts on this statement. These are close to his exact words (as best as I remember them)

Many people pray for the Lord to humble them. I say He will not do so, as His command is to humble ourselves. If we pray to be humbled, He will answer by giving us opportunity to humble ourselves. In short - He will humiliate us. We then have the choice of hardening ourselves in pride, or in humbling ourselves before Him

The Lord did humble King Nebekenezer (I know I spelled that wrong). The Lord gave him less than a year to humble himself. After that the King went mad and was of a bad mental state thinking and grazing with the animals.

After 7 years, when the King looked above with new eyes. God restored his kingdom to him.

Daniel 4:34
"34"But at the end of that period, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever; For His dominion is an everlasting dominion, And His kingdom endures from generation to generation."

Hebrews 12:6-8
"FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES." 7It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons."

Dave-W · Mar 23, 2015

The Lord did humble King Nebekenezer (I know I spelled that wrong). The Lord gave him less than a year to humble himself. After that the King went mad and was of a bad mental state thinking and grazing with the animals.

If you look at it closely - the Lord HUMILIATED him. Not the same thing as causing one's heart to become humble. It was only AFTER that time of madness that he properly humbled himself before God.

Circumstances may be humiliating but true humility is an attitude in the heart. (which is why God will not do that to us).

ToBeBlessed · Mar 23, 2015

DaveW-Ohev said:
If you look at it closely - the Lord HUMILIATED him. Not the same thing as causing one's heart to become humble. It was only AFTER that time of madness that he properly humbled himself before God.

Circumstances may be humiliating but true humility is an attitude in the heart. (which is why God will not do that to us).

Well, he became humble after his humiliation....

But notice that he had to 'raise his eyes to heaven'. That is where I believe that he humbled himself before the mighty hand of God. By looking to heaven and acknowledging Him.

Is the Pentecostal Church becoming New Age?

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