How to interpret Revelation 17

The woman is the HOLY MOTHER CHURCH....the Vatican......that dresses in purple and scarlet and has a gold cup in her hand...........whose religion comes from Babylon. They have fooled the world. We celebrate the birth of the true savior on the birthday of their god. We celebrate the rising of the Savior on the day to honor the supposed queen of heaven... Ester......Diana.....Madonna....Ishtar.....Isis........all being Semiramis. Lent is celebrated which is really mourning the death of the false savior......Tammuz...Horus. There is absolutely no question who the woman is.

You are right about the Medes coming against the land of Babylon in the future though. The Medes are the modern day Kurds, who will attack Babylon during the Day of the Lord. The land of Babylon has been under judgment since Gulf War 1 when Babylon was surrounded by nations from the farthest borders.

Choose Wisely said:

The woman is the HOLY MOTHER CHURCH....the Vatican......that dresses in purple and scarlet and has a gold cup in her hand...........whose religion comes from Babylon. They have fooled the world. We celebrate the birth of the true savior on the birthday of their god. We celebrate the rising of the Savior on the day to honor the supposed queen of heaven... Ester......Diana.....Madonna....Ishtar.....Isis........all being Semiramis. Lent is celebrated which is really mourning the death of the false savior......Tammuz...Horus. There is absolutely no question who the woman is.

You are right about the Medes coming against the land of Babylon in the future though. The Medes are the modern day Kurds, who will attack Babylon during the Day of the Lord. The land of Babylon has been under judgment since Gulf War 1 when Babylon was surrounded by nations from the farthest borders.

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The Vatican is just another harlot mystery Babylon has created....mystery Babylon will yet again fool the world with its final harlot....the false messianic age and 10 kingdoms yet to come

The 10 kingdoms will one day turn on mystery Babylon and destroy her so that she will never be able to rise again to deceive by false religions she was able to create.....

mystery Babylon, in her final success, will rebuild Babylon the city in shinar where she will fall in the future to her destruction along with those cities that follow her to perdition ...

Eric Parry said:

Let’s see if the Bible can help us.
There are two different women in Rev 17. How do we know this?
The un-named great harlot is sitting on many waters and the other woman named Babylon is riding a beast in the wilderness. There are not many waters in the wilderness so the two women are in two different locations.
Let’s look at the great harlot first. If we search the Bible we will find that three cities are called a harlot or harlot. They are Tyre (Isa 23:16), Nineveh (Nah 3:4) and Jerusalem. Tyre and Nineveh are each mentioned as a harlot or harlot in one place only but Jerusalem is called a harlot many times. The judgement of the harlot takes place in vs. 16 where the ten horns of the beast sack the city. The ten kings are ruled by the woman riding the beast whom the Bible itself identifies as the city of Babylon. (The kings of the earth are the ten kings. Compare Rev 17:14 with Rev 19:19).
If we search the Bible for any parallel passages concerning Jerusalem, Zec 14:2 comes to mind as being an end time event. The ‘all nations’ could equate with the ten kings. Another passage is Luke 21:24. This one mentions the same captivity as Zec 14. But the most graphic example is in Ezekiel:

Eze 16:36 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them; 37 Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness. 38 And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy. 39 And I will also give thee into their hand, and they shall throw down thine eminent place, and shall break down thy high places: they shall strip thee also of thy clothes, and shall take thy fair jewels, and leave thee naked and bare. 40 They shall also bring up a company against thee, and they shall stone thee with stones, and thrust thee through with their swords. 41 And they shall burn thine houses with fire, and execute judgments upon thee in the sight of many women: and I will cause thee to cease from playing the harlot, and thou also shalt give no hire any more.

Ezekiel 23 is in a similar vein and Ps. 83 identifies the areas of the ten kings that attack Jerusalem. Ps. 79:1 – 3 is similar to some verses from Rev 11 about the murder of the saints in Jerusalem. Neither Tyre nor Nineveh have any such passages so that only leaves Jerusalem as the great harlot of Rev. 17.
Now Babylon as we know it today is just a heap of ruins in the wilderness although Saddam Hussein did try to restore some of it. If we look at some of the Old Testament accounts which deal with the utter destruction of Babylon we will find that they require this destruction to be carried out by the Medes. For example: Isa 13:17, Jer 51:11, 28. Now Jer 51 is obviously an end time prophecy for “for this is the time of the LORD'S vengeance” (vs. 6) when the Jewish captives are told to ‘come out of her’ before her destruction. This has never happened. The historical capture of Babylon by the Medes took place almost without a fight and Babylon went on to be the richest province in the Medo-Persian empire. So there must be some occurrence in the future when the Medes will attack Babylon again.
The prophecies of Jer. 50 & 51 are obviously set in the time of the end when the sins of Israel will be pardoned.

Jer 50:20 In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.

Israel will once again go into captivity in Babylon, Assyria and other Arab countries. Babylon is the ruler of the beast and will participate in the sack of Jerusalem. And all this will take place before the return of Christ.
Consider the following verses.

Jer 25:8 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Because ye have not heard my words, 9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. 10 Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. 11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. 12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.

Note,” these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years”. These nations are Israel and the surrounding countries.
The total exile in Babylon lasted for 70 years but only 66 ½ of those years were serving under the king of Babylon. The rest were under the Medes and Persians.
604 – 539 B.C. = 66 ½ Years.
The remaining 3 ½ years will be in the future when the beast under the rule of Babylon will capture and hold Jerusalem for 42 months.
If you consider that the Babylon in Revelation 17 refers to Rome or the Vatican then there is no scriptural support for that idea. Rome is never mentioned in any prophecy whatsoever throughout the whole Bible.
The idea that Babylon represents Rome in Revelation 17 often comes from verse 18. “ And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.”
Some people reason that, in John’s time, Rome was the city that ruled over the kings of the earth. BUT this is a vision of the future and the kings of the earth have no existence in John’s time. How do we know this?
Because the ‘kings of the earth’ are the ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet. But who war against the Lamb at the time of the end.
So the woman that rules over the kings of the earth is an end time event and her name is on her forehead.
That is: BABYLON.
Again some people think that the woman is Rome because Rome is built on 7 hills.

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are (“they are”, third person plural) seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

“Mountains” in prophecy refer to powerful military kingdoms so the 7 heads are 7 kings and their 7 kingdoms.

After the return of Christ the remnant of Israel will be brought back from captivity into the wilderness and the rebels purged out of them.

Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

Shinar = Babylon.

Eze 20:33 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you: 34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. 36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD. 37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: 38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

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What is the motive for these nations attacking Jerusalem under the final antichrist?

Eric Parry said in post 1:

There are two different women in Rev 17.

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Actually, there aren't.

Eric Parry said in post 1:

The un-named great harlot is sitting on many waters and the other woman named Babylon is riding a beast in the wilderness.

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Note that in Revelation 17:3, it may be only John the apostle (cf. Revelation 1:1,3) who is in the wilderness, while the woman and the beast are right next to it, floating on the sea. For the beast rises out of the sea (Revelation 13:1), and the woman sits on many waters (Revelation 17:1), on the back of the beast (Revelation 17:3). The wilderness where John is in Revelation 17:3 can represent safe wilderness places where some in the church, represented by the different woman in Revelation 12, will flee during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:4-18).

Eric Parry said in post 1:

Jerusalem is called a harlot many times.

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That's right.

And passages like Ezekiel 16 calling Jerusalem a "harlot" doesn't require (as is sometimes claimed) that Jerusalem alone must be the entirety of what the symbolic harlot "Babylon" in Revelation chapters 17-18 represents, just as, for example, Nahum 3:4 doesn't require that Nineveh alone (Nahum 1:1) is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". Similarly, Isaiah 23:15-16 doesn't require that Tyre alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Ezekiel 23:4-8,44 doesn't require that Samaria alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Jeremiah 3:6-7 and Hosea 4:15 don't require that the northern kingdom of Israel alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Ezekiel 20:30 and Ezekiel 43:7 don't require that the house of Israel alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Hosea 5:3 and Hosea 6:10 don't require that Ephraim alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". Instead, the corrupt aspects of all of these, and of all other cities and nations throughout the earth and throughout history, can be included as only parts of what Revelation's "Babylon" represents.

Ezekiel 16:46 means that the corrupt aspects of the harlot "sisters" Samaria, Jerusalem, and Sodom all arose from one, other mother, who would be the symbolic "Babylon" in Revelation chapters 17-18, the "mother" of harlots (Revelation 17:5).

Choose Wisely said in post 2:

The woman is the HOLY MOTHER CHURCH....the Vatican......

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Note that while the corrupt aspects of the Vatican are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of the Vatican. For the Vatican just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is the Vatican the only place where people buy merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor is the Vatican the place where all martyrs have been killed (Revelation 18:24). Nor has the Vatican just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has the Vatican been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the nations (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number six in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [cf. Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

Eric Parry said:

The woman is the HOLY MOTHER CHURCH....the Vatican

Show me some proof please.

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I already did. The woman dresses in purple and scarlet

The Christians were killed at the site where the Vatican sits which is why it is full of the blood of the saints.

In St Peters Square at the Vatican is the obelisk inside a sun wheel. You might do a little research on that.

That is a link above.

Though the vatican has killed saints in the past the coming of Babylon will also persecute and kill saints...that a coming persecution will arise again as prophecied....the blood of saints will be found because of Babylon and 10. Kingdoms....who will persecute because saints will refuse the lie that Babylon will have created....the lie that the messianic age has come

@ Eric Parry
I hope you have the time to read my post here before looking at this reply.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7871267/

I think it will make more sense with that reference point. I think on the whole you are correct.

I agree that there are 2 harlots, but not in the manner you have described (one on waters, one in the wilderness).

Let's look at the whole passage
The bowls of wrath occur in tandem with the Trumpets which are both occurring during the Jubilee year/ Day of the Lord.
We know that Babylon falls during the Day of the Lord - it's what is referred to in Trumpet 2, the burning mountain (Jer 51:25). As you put in your other post, it is the "heaven" of "Israel". (As you allude to in this post, at the 70th year, Babylon is punished which is what allows Israel to be blessed.)
This is the most important part! There are 7 simultaneous/ contemporaneous heads that she sits on. There are also 7 kings on a temporal timeline. Put another way, the woman sat on the 1st beast with 7 heads, then sat on the 2nd beast with 7 heads, then sat on the 3rd beast with 7 heads, etc, etc all the way through to the 7th head that had 7 heads. We are currently at the 6th head, the "one that is". When Babylon falls during the Jubilee year (Nisan 2016 to Nisan 2017), this 6th head will have 7 heads and 10 horns.


Then, the 7th head that has 7 heads with 10 horns will rule. That's why it says that the 10 horns burn the harlot, the ruler of the 6th head, they don't have their 7th head yet.


The 7th and 8th are Satan, the 3rd woe from Rev 12 - the beast from the sea with 7 heads, and the beast from the earth which forms the 8th head.
It will be a moot point about whether or not Rome is the 6th head. It probably will be the Vatican, but that seems to be the deception of Satan, to make Catholicism out to be the fall guy.
With the 7th head.

Here it says what the waters are: people from all over the world.


And again, it is just saying that the 10 horns burn the 6th harlot/ Babylon that rides 7 heads and 10 horns to make way for the 7th head that will ride 7 heads and 10 horns.

Eric, Israel currently is not under any judgment for worshiping idols, nor even in Jesus's day. The woman in Revelation 17 is not Israel.

Mystery babylon is the spiritual kingdom of Satan. Through which all of the prophets and saints have been killed.

Which the Vatican, in Rome, has shared in that guilt as Satan got into the church and judgment is coming. The Vatican will be burned to the ground and Rome itself destroyed at the same time.

Jesus when he returns will rescue them in Jerusalem, so it is not going to be destroyed, although occupied and under duress from the beast and nations of the world.

tranquil said in post 11:

9 This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; 10 they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. 11 As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction.

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In Revelation 17:9, the 7 mountains (or hills) which support Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" can be the 7 hills of Rome. For at the time of John the apostle in the 1st century AD, the Roman empire was the chief support for what Revelation's "Babylon" represents: all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). At the same time, in Revelation 17:9 the 7 mountains can also represent 7 empires (Revelation 17:10). For an empire can be referred to symbolically as a mountain (Jeremiah 51:24-25, Daniel 2:35,44), and what Revelation's "Babylon" represents has been supported by 7 empires: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam.

The first 5 had fallen by the time of John the apostle in the 1st century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The 6th (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The 7th (possibly Islam) had not come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, 8th head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of the 5 empires which had fallen by the time of John (Revelation 17:8,10,11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Before the 2nd coming, when the world is brought into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, and so reinstitute the system which Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.

tranquil said in post 11:

12 And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast.

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The 10 kings/horns of the beast in its Antichrist's-empire aspect (Revelation 17:12,3, Revelation 13:1) could be 10 men whom the Antichrist will appoint as kings over 10 major nations, and which nations could be the 10 horns in Daniel 7:24. For in Daniel 7, the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). And the 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. And the 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa.

These 10 nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The 10 part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the 10 horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one federation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the 10 as a singular "kingdom". The person who brings this about could be the Antichrist. The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the Antichrist will arise from a little country.

And the little horn arising from "among" the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman empire. And before that, it was part of one of the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these 4 kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist federation of 3 of the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This federation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, i.e. a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

This Baathist federation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all 10 of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

Douggg said in post 12:

The woman in Revelation 17 is not Israel.

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That's right.

For while the corrupt aspects of Israel are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of Israel. For Israel just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is Israel the only place where people buy merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor has Israel just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has Israel been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

Eric Parry said:

Let’s see if the Bible can help us. There are two different women in Rev 17. How do we know this? The un-named great harlot is sitting on many waters and the other woman named Babylon is riding a beast in the wilderness. There are not many waters in the wilderness so the two women are in two different locations. Let’s look at the great harlot first. If we search the Bible we will find that three cities are called a harlot or harlot. They are Tyre (Isa 23:16), Nineveh (Nah 3:4) and Jerusalem. Tyre and Nineveh are each mentioned as a harlot or harlot in one place only but Jerusalem is called a harlot many times. The judgement of the harlot takes place in vs. 16 where the ten horns of the beast sack the city. The ten kings are ruled by the woman riding the beast whom the Bible itself identifies as the city of Babylon. (The kings of the earth are the ten kings. Compare Rev 17:14 with Rev 19:19). If we search the Bible for any parallel passages concerning Jerusalem, Zec 14:2 comes to mind as being an end time event. The ‘all nations’ could equate with the ten kings. Another passage is Luke 21:24. This one mentions the same captivity as Zec 14. But the most graphic example is in Ezekiel: Eze 16:36 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them; 37 Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness. 38 And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy. 39 And I will also give thee into their hand, and they shall throw down thine eminent place, and shall break down thy high places: they shall strip thee also of thy clothes, and shall take thy fair jewels, and leave thee naked and bare. 40 They shall also bring up a company against thee, and they shall stone thee with stones, and thrust thee through with their swords. 41 And they shall burn thine houses with fire, and execute judgments upon thee in the sight of many women: and I will cause thee to cease from playing the harlot, and thou also shalt give no hire any more. Ezekiel 23 is in a similar vein and Ps. 83 identifies the areas of the ten kings that attack Jerusalem. Ps. 79:1 – 3 is similar to some verses from Rev 11 about the murder of the saints in Jerusalem. Neither Tyre nor Nineveh have any such passages so that only leaves Jerusalem as the great harlot of Rev. 17. Now Babylon as we know it today is just a heap of ruins in the wilderness although Saddam Hussein did try to restore some of it. If we look at some of the Old Testament accounts which deal with the utter destruction of Babylon we will find that they require this destruction to be carried out by the Medes. For example: Isa 13:17, Jer 51:11, 28. Now Jer 51 is obviously an end time prophecy for “for this is the time of the LORD'S vengeance” (vs. 6) when the Jewish captives are told to ‘come out of her’ before her destruction. This has never happened. The historical capture of Babylon by the Medes took place almost without a fight and Babylon went on to be the richest province in the Medo-Persian empire. So there must be some occurrence in the future when the Medes will attack Babylon again. The prophecies of Jer. 50 & 51 are obviously set in the time of the end when the sins of Israel will be pardoned. Jer 50:20 In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve. Israel will once again go into captivity in Babylon, Assyria and other Arab countries. Babylon is the ruler of the beast and will participate in the sack of Jerusalem. And all this will take place before the return of Christ. Consider the following verses. Jer 25:8 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Because ye have not heard my words, 9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. 10 Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. 11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. 12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations. Note,” these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years”. These nations are Israel and the surrounding countries. The total exile in Babylon lasted for 70 years but only 66 ½ of those years were serving under the king of Babylon. The rest were under the Medes and Persians. 604 – 539 B.C. = 66 ½ Years. The remaining 3 ½ years will be in the future when the beast under the rule of Babylon will capture and hold Jerusalem for 42 months. If you consider that the Babylon in Revelation 17 refers to Rome or the Vatican then there is no scriptural support for that idea. Rome is never mentioned in any prophecy whatsoever throughout the whole Bible. The idea that Babylon represents Rome in Revelation 17 often comes from verse 18. “ And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.” Some people reason that, in John’s time, Rome was the city that ruled over the kings of the earth. BUT this is a vision of the future and the kings of the earth have no existence in John’s time. How do we know this? Because the ‘kings of the earth’ are the ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet. But who war against the Lamb at the time of the end. So the woman that rules over the kings of the earth is an end time event and her name is on her forehead. That is: BABYLON. Again some people think that the woman is Rome because Rome is built on 7 hills. Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are (“they are”, third person plural) seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. “Mountains” in prophecy refer to powerful military kingdoms so the 7 heads are 7 kings and their 7 kingdoms. After the return of Christ the remnant of Israel will be brought back from captivity into the wilderness and the rebels purged out of them. Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. Shinar = Babylon. Eze 20:33 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you: 34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. 36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD. 37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: 38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

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So what does vs 12 - 18 mean in your 21st century view?

And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. ([bless and do not curse]Revelation‬ [bless and do not curse]17‬:[bless and do not curse]12-18‬ KJV)

Implied Serpent that Rules over Many Waters

JOHN 5:3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.
JOHN 5:4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.

The Serpent called Babylon that rules over Earth

REVELATION 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters:
REVELATION 17:5 And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
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We can simply call the Holy Spirit, the Serpent ... however ... The Holy Spirit is only called "Babylon" when she "falls from heaven" at the end of time. Or becomes "Star Wormwood" in order to separate a portion of humanity from the "Holy Judgment of God", thus she is heading up the "Abominations of Earth". Since the conclusion is context driven, in other instances, Babylon may/could/and can, represent witnesses called in the name of Joseph, not to reign as kings-save for the Antichrist, however like the Roswell Aliens they may be.

Well Eric that's pretty much the doctrine of the Dallas Theological Seminary. It is also the doctrine that I abandoned about 40 years ago. In the last two years I have begun to study the Bible independently and no longer within the confines of established schools of thought. Futurism is a 20th century view of eschatology that is totally errant and is loaded with unrealistic expectations and speculations. As you recall it was the Jews unrealistic expectations that blinded them to the fact that Jesus was the promised Messiah.

When you look through the eyes of the first century people to whom the book was written you see a totally different picture. The first half of Chapter 17 has been beat to death here on this site. So I am just giving a summary. Starting with Revelation Chapter 17:12 I will give an interpretation verse by verse.

Revelation Chapter 17:1-11 John has a very simple message for the Christians of Asia. He was warning them that a second persecution was about to begin. Actually the first Roman persecution was instigated by Herod Agrippa in about 44AD. Not much is recorded about this persecution except that James (the very brother of John) was martyred and Peter experienced a miraculous deliverance from prison. The next persecution was under the cruel and heartless tyrant Nero following the fire of 64 AD. So I am not calling the persecution of Agrippa “The first persecution.” The first persecution in this post will be that of Nero.

In the symbol of the seven kings the key figure was number six - the one who was (Domitian) a seventh was coming out of the abyss – which is the cruel spirit of Nero. The eighth king was Domitian plus the cruelty of Nero. And from history we know this happened because in 89AD Saturninis attempted a failed coup on the government of Domitian and this made him extremely paranoid. This was the turning point of his personality where he became cruel and heartless just like Nero. In 93AD he began killing Christians. In order to prove people's loyalty to him he enacted laws that every year each subject had to appear before a statue of the Emperor (The worship of the Beast) in the town square and offer sacrifice and libations. If they did so they had taken an oath of loyalty to the Emperor. If they did not sacrifice they did not receive a libellis which was a legal document that proved that the holder was a loyal subject of the empire. If they did not have this libellis they could not buy or sell or even get jobs. John told the Christians of his day that this was soon going to take place. The Christians would not say the oath “Domitian is lord and god” and the penalty was usually death. It is estimated that Nero martyred about 5,000 Christians and Domitian about 2,000.

Revelation Chapter 17:12 - John returns to the events of the first persecution (which was still fresh in the minds of the first century Christians) under Nero and the events surrounding that persecution. Most of what he says here is not prophetic but rather a review of the historical events surrounding the first persecution. He goes back to the events of the fire of 64AD and gives his readers insight into the hidden and unknown events of that fire. He remains on the subject of the fire all through the remainder of chapter 17 continuing into chapter 18 up to vs 21. Verse 21 to 24 is a prophesy of the final judgment of Rome which we know happened in 410AD when Alaric the Visigoth sacked Rome. From then on the city went downhill until there was hardly anyone left of the old regime.

Revelation 17:12-18 (NASB)
12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour.

These mysterious “Ten Kings” were no mystery in John's day to anyone knowledgeable about the Roman Government. Rome needed many administrators and leaders in order to effectively run the Empire. The leadership of Rome was structured on three levels in John's time. The Emperor was the first level, the second level of authority were the Senators of which there were about 600. The lowest or third level of government authority were the Equestrians. These were the class that more or less did the bidding of the Emperor. New leaders were appointed from these two groups – the senate appointments were for the high level Jobs – like Procouncil of Syria. A senator could command a legion of troops. The Equestrians may have numbered around 2,000 within the empire; and they were appointed to the lower level of government positions. Example: Pontius Pilate the governor of Judea was an Equestrian and could only command a cohort of troops.

When John refers to a king without a kingdom he is definitely addressing the Equestrians. Take note that John calls anyone from these three levels of government “KINGS.” So the Kings without a kingdom was a reference to the UNAPPOINTED Equestrians in Rome. (This also includes the Senators but they were not the ones who did the emperors bidding so I say John means the Equestrians) This small band of Equestrians colluded with Nero to set fire on the city because he needed room to expand his building projects including his massive “Golden House.”

13 "These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.

John is telling us that these Ten Kings gave their power and authority to the beast. The number ten is not literal as are practically all numbers in Revelation which are symbols and not arithmetic. It means a small number.

14 "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."

He is telling us that these Equestrians were responsible for the torture and murder of the people of God.

This war was waged against the Saints after the great fire of Rome; and apparently these Equestrians were involved in the punishment of the Christians for setting the fire.. The Followers of Jesus were victorious because they stood up for the word of God even though they were martyred. To be martyred means that you won in Gods eyes. After this period of tribulation was over Nero was judged and was dead.

15 And he *said to me, "The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.

The Harlot - just like the woman - is symbolic of the city of Rome
16 "And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.

The ten horns (Equestrians) and the Beast (Nero) will hate the Harlot (City of Rome) and will make her desolate and naked and will burn her with fire (literally).

A very clear allusion to the burning of Rome where the citizens lost everything that they had – everything – homes, clothing, possessions, shops, temples, stores, even their lives. The causualty rate was stated as “substantial” with no estimates given.

17 "For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.

These Equestrians gave their power and authority to the beast (Nero) for one hour (a short period of time). Here again is something new to us. God is saying that this (temporary) judgment of Rome was instigated by Himself. He punished Rome for its evil by putting it into the hearts of Nero and the Equestrians to burn the city. Just like God hardened Pharaoh's heart and he pursued the Israelites out of Egypt. He punished Egypt by the death of the firstborn and by drowning their armies in the Red Sea.

18 "The woman whom you saw is the great city, (Rome) which reigns over the kings of the earth."

This is quite clear this woman or harlot is a symbol of Rome because in John's day Rome was the superpower of that age.

So what was the encrypted message of John in these passages. John had to be careful about encoding this book because it was very subversive to the government of Rome. It had to be unintelligible to the Romans.

1. He confirms to the Church that the fire was not set by Christians

2. He confirms the rumor that it was Nero who instigated the fire. Historians today are quick to point out that it was never “proven” that Nero set the fire. Here the all knowing spirit of Prophesy says that he did.

3. Unknown to history is also the fact that it was some of the Equestrians who did the legwork for Nero to set the fire. Brigands of thugs were reported roaming the city setting fires and preventing anyone from putting them out. I wonder who arranged their hire?

4. He reveals to the Christians that God was behind the burning of Rome – He is the one who engineered the fire. The Christians in Rome lived among the Jews on the South west quarter of the city. The Tiber river was a natural firebreak which protected them from the fire so they or their possessions were not hurt or damaged.

And then he continues in Chapter 18 talking about the severity of the fire and the devastation that it caused. He tells it through the eyes of the passengers and sailors on the hundreds of ships in the harbor of Claudius near Austia Antica. This was about 15 miles (afar off) to the south west from the seaport of Claudius to the docks of Rome. Goods and cargos were hauled on barges from the seaport up the Tiber River to the docks of Rome. The barges were towed by teams of Oxen.

This is what the message of Rev Chapters 17 and 18 meant to the people to whom it was originally written to in the late first century. Today however these verses have been twisted and forged by speculation and supposition into something that is deemed to be in our future.

thx Codg; interesting work.