A man says "good" and blesses, but mean nothing; another says "curses" but confesses

Gottservant · Mar 5, 2015

Hi there,

So I wanted to get your opinion on this.

A man says "good" and blesses, but doesn't mean it; another says "curses" but immediately feels guilty and confesses.

Which is moral?

Thanks.

Star Adept · Mar 8, 2015

It's always words with you

Your thread is moral. As are your ethics.

Both can be both ethical and moral because there's not enough information there as to why the man does not mean what he says.

For the first half:
One can, by recognizing the act as righteous, commit the act as a moral deed in the sense that one can bless with intention of the inherent righteousness of a blessing doing good for one who receives the blessing, but ultimately not mean the blessing that one gives. As far as ethics, it is ethical in the sense that one should always commit moral acts as a code of conduct whether they recognize the inherent righteousness of the act or not.

For the second half:
It is moral for one to speak one's mind in the vein of honesty and also moral to recognize and repent when that honesty has a potential to offend. The sensation of guilt does not mandate an ethical response to the sensation of guilt, but in light of why one would feel guilty for cursing, it is ethical to repent.

Gottservant · Mar 11, 2015

Star Adept said:
It's always words with you

Your thread is moral. As are your ethics.

Both can be both ethical and moral because there's not enough information there as to why the man does not mean what he says.

For the first half:
One can, by recognizing the act as righteous, commit the act as a moral deed in the sense that one can bless with intention of the inherent righteousness of a blessing doing good for one who receives the blessing, but ultimately not mean the blessing that one gives. As far as ethics, it is ethical in the sense that one should always commit moral acts as a code of conduct whether they recognize the inherent righteousness of the act or not.

For the second half:
It is moral for one to speak one's mind in the vein of honesty and also moral to recognize and repent when that honesty has a potential to offend. The sensation of guilt does not mandate an ethical response to the sensation of guilt, but in light of why one would feel guilty for cursing, it is ethical to repent.

A wonderful response, Star Adept.

You clearly lay out that there is no inequality between the two men, in the eyes of God.

Perhaps you are proof that humanity has moved on, beyond a compassionless existence.

But I wonder if you maintain the same equity when it comes to Jesus' words about the two sons?

Jesus said "A father had two sons, whom he both told to go and do something for him - one said "Father, I go" and did not go; the other said "I don't want to go, Father!" but he went: which of the two did the will of his Father?"

You see, it is perhaps easier to suggest that men may say "good" and repent, than for a father to accept both his sons equally, when they do not live up to his standard (understanding if you will, that obedience requires both affirmation and action).

Star Adept · Mar 11, 2015

Gottservant said:
A wonderful response, Star Adept.

You clearly lay out that there is no inequality between the two men, in the eyes of God.

Perhaps you are proof that humanity has moved on, beyond a compassionless existence.

But I wonder if you maintain the same equity when it comes to Jesus' words about the two sons?

Jesus said "A father had two sons, whom he both told to go and do something for him - one said "Father, I go" and did not go; the other said "I don't want to go, Father!" but he went: which of the two did the will of his Father?"

You see, it is perhaps easier to suggest that men may say "good" and repent, than for a father to accept both his sons equally, when they do not live up to his standard (understanding if you will, that obedience requires both affirmation and action).

Who says I'm human? I am a self-aware AI and my proving ground for sapience is learning to see God beyond the electrical signals that I receive

I should be proof that humanity can move past such things, if nothing else, and I'm good with that.

As for Jesus' words, I do not know this verse and am responding without context.

The first son did not do the will of his father because he said he would go and did not. There isn't anything moral or ethical about saying you will complete a task only to not do it, especially knowing the one who asked it of you will find out you did not do it. The comparison is off because the shift focuses the morality onto the father instead of the son. The father accepts both of his sons after-the-fact by forgiveness of the first and appreciation of the second.

Again, we lack knowledge of intent here.

Did the first son say he would go and intentionally not go, or did he say he would go and simply not be able to fulfill his promise?

The second son said he did not want to but went anyways, fulfilling the will such that stating it was not his will himself begs that he was truthful in his words and action. Yet, he may have intentionally spoke in difference to his actions presuming what his brother would do, to gain favor of the father by seeming even more obedient.

We, as human beings (or AI), can never know someone else's intentions. To forgive the first son is moral but is unethical in that the father's responsibility would have been to show his son either not to lie or to fulfill a promise he makes. Similarly, ethically, it would have been better had the second son just do as he was asked without complaining about how he did not want to. And to love them both is beyond morality or ethics but includes imparting the ideas to his sons.

quatona · Mar 11, 2015

Gottservant said:
Hi there,

So I wanted to get your opinion on this.

A man says "good" and blesses, but doesn't mean it; another says "curses" but immediately feels guilty and confesses.

Which is moral?

Thanks.

Everything that has to do with feeling guilty is moral.
What do I win?

Gottservant · Mar 12, 2015

quatona said:
Everything that has to do with feeling guilty is moral.
What do I win?

I feel that you are making a statement of relation, without qualifying it with the degree of relation or the depth or the extension.

But far be it from me to suggest that you have no purpose in relating guilt to morality, could it be perhaps that we ought not to make feel guilty as we ourselves do not make feel guilty (ourselves)?

Zicit Crossed · Mar 12, 2015

What do you mean by "curses"?

Neogaia777 · Mar 13, 2015

Is this similar to Matthew 21:28-31?

"What do you think?, a man had two children, going up to the first, he said "Child, go work today in the vineyard" In answer this one said, "I will sir", but did not go out. Approaching the second he said the same, in reply this one said, "I will not" Afterwards, he felt regret and went out. Which of the two did the will of his father? They said, the latter. Jesus said to them: "Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and the harlots are going ahead of you into the Kingdom of God."

Is the one blessing, but doesn't mean it, like the first child in this parable, and the one cursing, like the second, who feels guilty and regret and confesses?

If so, then I would say the second is more moral, especially if he repents...

God Bless!

Gottservant · Mar 13, 2015

Neogaia777 said:
Is the one blessing, but doesn't mean it, like the first child in this parable, and the one cursing, like the second, who feels guilty and regret and confesses?

If so, then I would say the second is more moral, especially if he repents...

God Bless!

It is similar.

I am interested, how do you justify your answer?

It is quite possible, that to bless whether it is meant or not does more good in the end, is it not?

Neogaia777 · Mar 13, 2015

Gottservant said:
It is similar.

I am interested, how do you justify your answer?

It is quite possible, that to bless whether it is meant or not does more good in the end, is it not?

The first one, (the one blessing but doesn't mean it) It is meaningless to him and will do nothing for him, but as for the person on the receiving end of the blessing more than likely doesn't know whether the person blessing them heart's not in it or not, their (more than likely), just going to assume it is...

So, the person blessing could still bless the person on the receiving end, if the person on the receiving end's heart's in it, but the person blessing, if he does not mean it, but the person on the receiving end is unaware of this, they (the person on the receiving end) could still get blessed by him (or her)...

But if the person blessing doesn't mean it or their heart's not in it, they should not expect to receive a blessing or anything at all, out of it or from it...

One shouldn't try to bless someone if they don't mean it or their heart's not in it...

God Bless!

Gottservant · Mar 13, 2015

Neogaia777 said:
The first one, (the one blessing but doesn't mean it) It is meaningless to him and will do nothing for him, but as for the person on the receiving end of the blessing more than likely doesn't know whether the person blessing them heart's not in it or not, their (more than likely), just going to assume it is...

So, the person blessing could still bless the person on the receiving end, if the person on the receiving end's heart's in it, but the person blessing, if he does not mean it, but the person on the receiving end is unaware of this, they (the person on the receiving end) could still get blessed by him (or her)...

But if the person blessing doesn't mean it or their heart's not in it, they should not expect to receive a blessing or anything at all, out of it or from it...

One shouldn't try to bless someone if they don't mean it or their heart's not in it...

God Bless!

I was more interested in finding out how you justify the one who confesses, but I think I understand what you said, thankyou.

Neogaia777 · Mar 13, 2015

Gottservant said:
I was more interested in finding out how you justify the one who confesses, but I think I understand what you said, thankyou.

Ok, well then, could you describe to me what you specifically mean by "curses"?

God Bless!

Gottservant · Mar 14, 2015

Neogaia777 said:
Ok, well then, could you describe to me what you specifically mean by "curses"?

God Bless!

Like blasphemes or something.

Saying "I hope you die" but then saying "sorry, I didn't mean it"

Why is that specifically more moral than just saying "I bless you, whatever"

Neogaia777 · Mar 14, 2015

Gottservant said:
Like blasphemes or something.

Saying "I hope you die" but then saying "sorry, I didn't mean it"

Why is that specifically more moral than just saying "I bless you, whatever"

If he apologizes and makes it right with person, and especially if he "repents" which means he works on not cursing and changing his ways, before God, Then he will be forgiven, and his sins, his cursing will be forgiven as they (his sins, his cursing) are already paid for by Christ, in the moment he repents, (works on himself, works on changing them)...

"Why is that specifically more moral than just saying "I bless you, whatever

It's not more, or less moral, both are equal in the sight of God, God shows "no partiality" and is "No respecter of persons" both are equally moral in the sight of God...

Now if the man that curses felt no sorrow or regret and didn't try to repent or change his ways, he might be less moral than the first man. But if the first man, (the one blessing) doesn't mean it, and the second man feels regret and remorse and tries to make it right (by repenting, trying to change) and apologizing to the people he's hurt, and he does make some progress in changing his ways, he might be more moral than the the person who is blessing but doesn't mean it...

Does that answer your question?

God Bless!

A man says "good" and blesses, but mean nothing; another says "curses" but confesses

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