Me-What's the real reason I oppose war?

datan · Feb 21, 2003

Today at 02:33 PM Angel75 said this in Post #72 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=667252#post667252)

Wow. If I were you, I would be embarrassed about comparing Bush to Hitler. lets look at this....hitler murdered savagely innocent men women and children for being jews. Bush is threatening to war against a man who has proven in the past to not care about his civilians, harm and kill them, and now has shown it is likely to be carrying and hiding weapons of mass destruction.   OOOOH bush so bad. gimme a break, if you arent going to respond with something intelligent dont respond to me at all.

***hnot sure if the above is a "personal attack" or not...editing to say if it is mods, go ahead and remove it...did not intend for it to be

no--I'm not comparing President Bush & Herr Hitler--not in that particular post anyway. I was comparing the reactions of the citizens: apathy & preferring to believe in government propaganda & misinformation. People who think "my government knows best for me so I shouldn't question any of their actions"--Germans or Americans. Remember the Tonkin resolution, the Pentagon papers, the "babies snatched from incubators" stories?

Morat · Feb 21, 2003

O'Mara:

No,

I just wonder when respect for figures of authority went down the tubes in this country.

Was no one here brought up to call elders "Mr." and "Mrs." or Police Officers "Officer" etc.

Maybe it's just my personal background, but in my social circle, even if I don't like the President, they still deserve the respect and honors granted to them by my government, and I am expected to show that respect as a civilized and sensative person.

And it is just common courtesy to refer to leaders of other countries by their titles to avoid alienating those from that country.

It is rather arogant for someone to believe that they have the right to denounce someone's title based on their own personal beliefs about the person.

Sort of like when the sitting President of a powerful country referred to the leader of another country as a "pygmy" and talked about how he "hated that guy".

Is that the kind of thing you mean?

jeffkrantz · Feb 21, 2003

Thank you, Susan, for beginning this important discussion. Too often we are drawn into arguments about the "necessity" of war that miss God's desire for us altogether.

I believe that a careful reading of the Scriptures as Christians leads us to no other conclusion than that God rejects violence utterly as a means of resolving things. I find that rejection in the example of Jesus, who refused to use force to accomplish God's ends, but rather submitted to violence rather than use it himself. As Christians, we do claim that Jesus is the perfect revelation of God, no? God incarnate? Not someone less?

If that is so, where do we find in his life/teaching/example a warrant for war? I can't find it at all.

Thanks again Susan. I've been searching the web for some time for a real Christian response to our administration's madness!

Peace,

Jeff K.

Evangelion · Feb 22, 2003

MHS -

Okay, lets break this down.....

Romans 13, 1. Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Either you believe this to be the word of God or you don't.

I believe that the Bible is the Word of God.

How is this relevant to the issue of literalism?

If this passage doesn't apply to you or the way you live your christian life then what passage does. I think the point Angel is trying to make is that you can use the bible as an excuse to say "Gay people are wrong and bad" and then turn around and ignore this passage because it doesn't suit your fancy. Its an all or nothing proposition...and if its not, then you are simply "picking and choosing" the passages you find help you in your case.

This was not the issue under consideration.

If any single passage does not hold true, then that speaks for all the passages and the bible becomes nothing but a historical document....

And according to dictionary.com there doesn't seem to be a lot of lee way on the term literal

lit·er·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ltr-l)
adj.
-Being in accordance with, conforming to, or upholding the exact or primary meaning of a word or words.
-Word for word; verbatim: a literal translation.
-Avoiding exaggeration, metaphor, or embellishment; factual; prosaic: a literal description; a literal mind.
-Consisting of, using, or expressed by letters: literal notation.
-Conforming or limited to the simplest, nonfigurative, or most obvious meaning of a word or words.

How is any of this relevant to the "Bible is literal" debate?

There is a world of difference between claiming that the Bible is the inspired Word of God (which I believe) and claiming that the Bible is 100% literal (which I don't believe, and don't know anyone who does.)

Do you recognise the distinction?

Evangelion · Feb 22, 2003

Angel75 -

By saying I have more respect for a christian who believes the book to be literal is not insulting those who don't. I am not friends with fundies...I do however have friends who consider themselves liberal christians....I don't have to agree with their choices and think they are reasonable to be friends with them. I love them and accept them, flaws and all I simply still think it makes more sense to believe it all if you are going to believe a bit. I won't argue that point.

And don't bring in Anabel Lee...I am making a general reference to liberal vs literal....Dont make this personal. Again..though I would enjoy the company, and morals and views of a liberal christian as opposed to a fundamentalist....I DO NOT AGREE WITH what I consider to be picking and choosing. I was in no way insulting her.

Firstly, you're the one who brought in Annabel Lee. Secondly, you're the one who's made this personal. Thirdly, nobody's advocated "picking and choosing." Fourthly, there is a world of difference between claiming that the Bible is the inspired Word of God (which I believe) and claiming that the Bible is 100% literal (which I don't believe, and don't know anyone who does.)

Do you recognise the distinction?

TheBear · Feb 22, 2003

New guidelines for posting in the News & Current Events forum.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/36626.html

Evangelion · Feb 23, 2003

It is a bit strange that I didn't get answers to any of my questions.

Fortunately, the new rules do not prevent me from asking them again.

Which is why I'm bumping this thread.

Mr. John · Feb 23, 2003

http://www.markfiore.com/animation/corrections.html

This is a simple anti-war shockwave flash. It shows how propaganda is used in the American media in a comical way. I believe that Christians should become educated in how propaganda and rhetoric is used by this government in the media. I am against this upcoming war. There are more dangerous dictators in the world like President Mugabe of Zimbabque (spelling?). There has been genocide of White farmers which has caused a food famine there. Famers who they themselves were toutured in a gross manner and then killed. Women raped, tourtured, killed and it did not matter how old or young they were. Infants roasted alive. Yes, there are more sickies than Sadam but then we got to have oil and to protect whiny little Israel who, of all things, practice sex slavery by deceiving Ukrainian White women to come to Israel for employment only to find themselves in more dire straights than they were in the Ukraine. Unfortunatly, the Christian mindset cannot conceive any wrong doing from Israel and often forget the "all under sin" rule in regard to them. Jews can be as mean and nasty as their Islamic Semetic brethren. Nuff said.

Mr. John

TheBear · Feb 23, 2003

You cannot just broad-brush or pigeon hole all Christians as under one mindset about things, just as you cannot broad-brush or pigeon hole non-Christians about things. These events get a variety of reactions from both Christians and non-Christians, alike. Non-Christians are split on this, just as Christians are split on this. Christians are aware of propganda, just as non-Christians are aware of propiganda.

TheBear · Feb 23, 2003

BTW, that flash cartoon would be considered by some, to be propiganda.

Mr. John · Feb 23, 2003

Pigeon hole? Your kidding...right? It been my unfortunate experience to realize that many Christian and non Christian can't tell the difference between propaganda, rhetoric, sound bites, and buzz words. They all take it as gospel truth not realizing the intent behind them. Bet no one here has ever heard of President Robert Mugabe, his Marxist regime or his campaign of terror which has caused South African blacks to commit genocide of Whites in South Africa.

http://afrikanercharity.org

Mr. John

TheBear · Feb 23, 2003

As long as you qualify that Christians and non-Christians alike can be duped by propiganda, and not just single out Christians, you have a point.

My reply was to the remarks in post # 88, pointing eclusively to the "Christian mindset". There is no single "Christian mindset" about current events, any more than there is a single "non-Christian mindset" about current events.

Mr. John · Feb 23, 2003

Bear, America is plumeted with propaganda everyday. Now the difference is whether we can discern good propaganda from the bad. That flash cartoon is propaganda to counter current propaganda. What everyone should do is learn what propagada is and the intent of what is presented. Now, we either beileve the media or we look for the truth. Iraq is contained and controlled by American forces...correct? Why then has the spotlight moved from Osama to Saddam? Iraq is considered a Third World nation with Third World armenant which was enhanced a bit by the United States giving Saddam biological weapon to use against Iran during war at that time.

Is it about oil? Not as much of a factor since the U.S. now gets most of it's oil from Russia (not Saudi Arabia) and the securing of Afganistan will ensure that more oil will come into production. There are large reserves in the Caspian(?) sea area and a pipeline through Afganistan will ensure delivery of crude oil. The U.S. suceeded where the old Soviet Union could not.

Personal grudge of the Bush family? In part yes. It's more like protecting Israel more than anything but then that is my personal belief considering that Israel has the second largest lobby in Washington and there are alot of Jews in high places in government. Too many since there are only about a 2 percent population in the U.S.

Here at home. He now have the Patriot Act which has gutted some of the Bill of Rights. Watch out for Patriot 2 which would give the Attorney General sweeping powers to detain indefinately American citizens accused of being terrorist (note: American citizens!) Of all people now targeted are White Nationalist here in America. Not Islamic sleepers or suspects. Weird huh? While the governmant is putting effort into Homeland Security the borders remain wide open to every illegal who wants to cross it which makes it even weirder.

http://www.infowars.com
Mr. John

Mr. John · Feb 23, 2003

I re-read post #88. Whoops, I did it again with the broadbrush. Sorry about that.

Mr. John

Mr. John · Feb 23, 2003

Here is one more link. Whether you believe it or not is up to you.

http://humanityonhold.com/intifada.html

Mr. John

datan · Feb 23, 2003

Today at 05:29 PM Mr. John said this in Post #95 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=671209#post671209)

Here is one more link. Whether you believe it or not is up to you.

http://humanityonhold.com/intifada.html

Mr. John

as a rule, sources which are blatantly one-sided have no credibility in my eyes.
http://humanityonhold.com/articles/index.html

Mr. John · Feb 23, 2003

datan, your prespective can be one sided as well. Don't throw stones from a glass house.

Mr. John

 

PS No comment about Robert Mugabe or South Africa...odd. Infowars is temporarily down.

datan · Feb 23, 2003

Today at 05:48 PM Mr. John said this in Post #97

datan, your prespective can be one sided as well. Don't throw stones from a glass house.

That website fails to consider WHY Israel requires a strong deterrant, that it has enemies which have sworn to destroy it? Does it even mention the homicide bombers to try to put things into perspective?

That's too blatantly biased ...

could you cite proof that I'm as blatantly one-sided as that website ie. I completely ignore the opposite stand? Otherwise, I ask that you retract that personal attack.

Mr. John · Feb 23, 2003

No retraction from me bud. If you were backed into a corner you would come out fighting as well. Your biased if you favor one race (Juden) over the other (Palistinian). You fail to realise that both parties are at fault, hence, the conflict of interest. Why haven't you commented on South Africa? Your bretheren are dying there from the Marxists. Or they just don't rate as the Israelies.

Mr. John

Mr. John · Feb 23, 2003

I am going off line for the rest of the day. Okay, stop clapping your hands.

Mr. John

Me-What's the real reason I oppose war?

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