Did the Virgin Mary remain a virgin?

abysmul said:

I wonder how many people think the virginity question at hand actually relates to salvation being available through Christ? Would her lack of eternal virginity change anything? Does one's salvation hinge on one's beliefs on the matter?

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According to the Catholic Church the Marian Dogma of Perpetual Virginity is an essential, salvific dogma which must be believed if a person is to be saved.

rockytopva said:

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus. - Matthew 1


Good scripture!

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If you take it hyper-literally Joseph did not meet Mary at all until after she had born Jesus. If you take "knew" in a biblical sense, then Joseph "knew" Mary in the same way that Adam "knew" Eve. I opt for the second interpretation.

I don't how much there is here to really argue. I'm quite confident that the Orthodox Church proclaims her as eternally virgin and it has done so for for a very long time. I'm comfortable with accepting that. I know there are verses that could be taken another way, but they don't necessarily have to. They can easily harmonize with her virginity too.

bbbbbbb said:

According to the Catholic Church the Marian Dogma of Perpetual Virginity is an essential, salvific dogma which must be believed if a person is to be saved.

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One of countless things that were not taught or addressed in my RCIA class.

Interesting.

Kristos said:

I don't how much there is here to really argue. I'm quite confident that the Orthodox Church proclaims her as eternally virgin and it has done so for for a very long time. I'm comfortable with accepting that. I know there are verses that could be taken another way, but they don't necessarily have to. They can easily harmonize with her virginity too.

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This is called the appeal to authority fallacy and the appeal to tradition fallacy. Both are logical fallacies.

abysmul said:

One of countless things that were not taught or addressed in my RCIA class.

Interesting.

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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...9P9DpWSK45b4hzZMA&sig2=XBwJus2sYRq-w0izJ498Xg

Metal Minister said:

This is called the appeal to authority fallacy and the appeal to tradition fallacy. Both are logical fallacies.

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That would be called the anti-authority, anti-tradition fallacy. LOL!

Kristos said:

I don't how much there is here to really argue. I'm quite confident that the Orthodox Church proclaims her as eternally virgin and it has done so for for a very long time. I'm comfortable with accepting that. I know there are verses that could be taken another way, but they don't necessarily have to. They can easily harmonize with her virginity too.

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Do they ignore Matt 1:25, or have they simply removed that from the Scripture? There IS no other way to "take" such a statement as made by Matthew.

Kristos said:

That would be called the anti-authority, anti-tradition fallacy. LOL!

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Pfft! Call me Renegade for Life!

Richard.R said:

Never ask others for prayer, Jesus said we could ask the Father direct in his name.

Like many things about religion praying to mary, saints, the neighbors dead dog to beg them to pray on your behalf is a slap in the face to Jesus.

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We are called to pray for each other. People who are alive, praying for other people that are also still alive.

James 5:16
15and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. 16Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

Genesis 20:17
Then Abraham prayed to God, and God healed Abimelek, his wife and his female slaves so they could have children again

Job 42:8
My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.

The fact that we are to pray for each other is all over the bible.

Kristos said:

I don't how much there is here to really argue. I'm quite confident that the Orthodox Church proclaims her as eternally virgin and it has done so for for a very long time. I'm comfortable with accepting that. I know there are verses that could be taken another way, but they don't necessarily have to. They can easily harmonize with her virginity too.

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So you take the proclamation of the Orthodox church over the Bible? And there proclamation is proof enough for you as to her eternal virginity?

You give the church a lot of power!

StephanieSomer said:

Do they ignore Matt 1:25, or have they simply removed that from the Scripture? There IS no other way to "take" such a statement as made by Matthew.

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(bolding mine)
but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus. - Matthew 1:25

Not really ambiguous. "Until" is the telling word here, coupled with the fact that the entire family was observant of all the Jewish laws and customs, makes it incredibly unlikely they would break them. The onus is upon the ones making the positive claim of perpetual virginity. One must eisegete the PV back into the text since it is utterly absent...

Kristos said:

LOL! That is obviously not at all what I said.

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Really? This is exactly what you said

I'm quite confident that the Orthodox Church proclaims her as eternally virgin and it has done so for for a very long time. I'm comfortable with accepting that.

Also, it sounds like your getting very rude with myself and another poster. We are having a discussion.

rockytopva said:

Simple question... Did the Virgin Mary remain a virgin

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Not according to Scripture.

However all kinds of legends came into existence about her birth, her "perpetual virginity", her exaltation as Queen of Heaven, etc.

abysmul said:

One of countless things that were not taught or addressed in my RCIA class.

Interesting.

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Yes, it is interesting what is not mentioned in the RCIA class. Here is the statement from the Catechism of the Catholic Church concerning dogmas -

88 The Church's Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes, in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith, truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes, in a definitive way, truths having a necessary connection with these.

StephanieSomer said:

Do they ignore Matt 1:25, or have they simply removed that from the Scripture? There IS no other way to "take" such a statement as made by Matthew.

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Well, actually there is another way, as I pointed out in a previous post. The other way is to take "knew" hyper-literally and understand the verse to mean the Joseph had never met Mary at all prior to the birth of Jesus. This would make some interesting problems such as how Joseph and Mary happened to show up at the inn in Bethlehem at the same time.

bbbbbbb said:

My, how quickly this thread has gone off-topic! The OP has received its usual responses - biblical citations concerning the named brothers and the sisters of Jesus Christ and the standard refutations by those who wish to interpret these citations as being something other than brothers and sisters.

It does seem quite peculiar that a couple would enter into the holy bonds of matrimony in order to establish a one-man monastery and a one-woman convent, sharing the same house with the child of the woman. Typically, this would be the solid argument for the annulment of the marriage.

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StephanieSomer said:

I'm really surprised at the lack of familiarity with the Scriptures that has people trying to deduce something from Scriptures which do not actually address the question.

The answer to the question has nothing to do with Christ's brothers and sisters. It is found explicitly in Matt 1:25.

"But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son."

So, the marriage between Joseph and Mary WAS consummated after Christ's birth. End of virginity.

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rockytopva said:

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus. - Matthew 1


Good scripture!

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The problem still remains that your all three putting modern interpretation and ideas onto a culture that is not yours (unless your 2000 plus years old).

Nothing says that the Blessed Virgin had more Children after Christ. It's not good Scripture but poor learning and a refusal to study history

topcare said:

The problem still remains that your all three putting modern interpretation and ideas onto a culture that is not yours (unless your 2000 plus years old).

Nothing says that the Blessed Virgin had more Children after Christ. It's not good Scripture but poor learning and a refusal to study history

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Actually there are numerous verses that do. It's only after one has established their dogma of PV and then is forced to read it back into the text. It's called eisegesis.