Why is Messianic Judaism considered Judaism if they believe in Jesus?
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There is Judaism and there is Messianic Judaism. You see both, from Genesis on.
There is now disagreement as to what Christianity is, and or its origin.
And it is far and away too often confused with the Roman Emperor Constantine's heresy, and the RCC that resulted in that, that still bears his agenda to this very day, and that far too many confuse as Christianity.
Were such the case, the Protestant Reformation would not have turned the vastness that is all of Europe into the great whirlwind of a firestorm that resulted in so much change on so many levels of society like few in all recorded history, that it did.
The secular world is allowed its ignorance as to what Christianity is.
Better is expected from Believers, but that requires tolerance of other's contributing view.
For neither the traditions of men, nor the supposed contribution of secular history, stand much of a chance of sorting these "faith" differences out.
To their credit, secular historians tend to be a bit more tolerant as to exploring what's what, then those "of faith" tend to be, despite notions and or assertions otherwise.
One is left on one's own -just one and The Book.
The very intent so many behind the Protestant Reformation paid for with their very lives; thanks alone, to the "Christianity" of the RCC.
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yonah_mishael
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Well, there are certain things you do as part of forum decorum on any forum to express yourself in a non-aggressive way. First, remove the bold from your posts. Black bold letters are certainly aggressive. Choose a font that is clear, large, non-bold and perhaps a different color (easier on the eyes). Or, just leave it the forum default, and people can enlarge it themselves if they need in order to see it better.
Second, don't write in all-caps. I haven't seen you do this, so I don't think it's something you do. That's definitely considered shouting on a forum. The same goes for putting a large amount of exclamation points and question marks on your sentences. Is not one enough?
Third, develop a thick skin. Some people can be abrasive - or you can simply read them in a way that they didn't intend - and you may become offended. Don't take things personally, and you will have a better time on the forum (on any forum, in fact).
This is generally a laid-back forum where people express the whackiest of ideas (seriously!) without getting jumped on. We kinda ignore the fact that we have some weirdos among us.
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yonah_mishael
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Judaism and Christianity are not even close to the same religion.
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yonah_mishael
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The problem with your view, as I see it, is that secular scholars are doing a much better job than religious scholars of pulling back the layers of history and mythology to get to what really happened as regards the development of Christianity in the early centuries of this era.
Personally, I think Richard Carrier is on to something in suggesting that the concept of the Word (ὁ λόγος
should be understood as speaking of the Angel of the Lord (מלאך יהוה in the Torah. That is, the Word was the Angel of the Presence. Philo ties this angel to the high priest Yeshua bar Yotsadak in Zechariah 6. This angel bore many names, among them being Michael, Metatron, Minister of the Presence, Yahweh (since he spoke in the name of Yahweh so often), etc. It is quite possible that the name of the angel was even given as Yeshua in the Jewish tradition before the Christian heresy (if we can call it that). Once a group turned "Yeshua" into God, then every effort seems to have been made to remove "Yeshua" from the Jewish view of the universe.The titles of Minister of the Presence (שר הפנים
and Metatron (מט"ט = מטטרון were kept, yet the name of Yeshua was removed. This is exemplified in the video that someone here posted of "Rabbi Pearlmutter" and his discovery of the name Yeshua in a copy of the Machzor Rabba. I searched high and low to find such a copy, and I eventually found it. I now have it on my shelves. In this version of the Machzor Rabba, the name of the Minister of the Presence is given as Yeshua, where it says "Yeshua, Prince of the Presence and Prince Metatron" (ישוע שר הפנים ושר מט"ט.This concept seems to have existed in the Kabbalah long ago. Philo made the connection of the angel with Yeshua bar Yotzadak, as I mentioned, based on the name "Rising" (Ἀνατολή
being given to Yeshua the priest and how it was much more appropriate that such a name be given to an angelic being. He went on to give many names and titles of the Metatron, among which was "the Word of God."Christianity early understood this connection of the Word to Yeshua, assuming him to be an angelic being that bore the glory and represented the presence of God. However, the early Christians changed things forever when they claimed that this angelic being took on flesh and became a sacrifice for the world's sin. This probably came about in imitation of Greek savior cults, in which they claimed that their gods were sacrificed for people's sins and came back from the dead. Bart Ehrman and Richard Carrier, both secular scholars, explain in their writings how Christianity began as a Jewish version of the savior cult system.
So, I disagree with you. I think that secular scholars have come to a much better, clearer, more lucid explanation of how Christianity could have developed from the Judaism of the time. What's most interesting is that none of this development would have hinged on Jesus being a historical person.
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A
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The majority of the first so-called “Christians” at Antioch were Messianic Jews. The Apostle Paul was both a Messianic Jew and a "Christian." As others have previously said the name “Christian” was used with derision/contempt by both Judaism and secular Gentiles. The same seems to be true today. The enemy has blinded the eyes of not only Orthodox Judaism and secular Gentiles, but other religions (e.g.. Islamic Jihadist terrorists behead 21 Coptic Christians).
Thousands of Egyptians flee Libya after beheading of 21 Coptic Christians by Islamic State jihadists - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
2 Corinthians 11:24-26
24 Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes.
25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and a day I have spent in the deep.
26 I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren;…
Hebrews 11:37
They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated
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Oh, so there is no law specifically mentioning if being asked if youre an ISIS sympathizer. But the law does state Speech alone is not sufficient to support an action under the Bane Act
So from this we can conclude that no hate crime occurred here.
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The problem with your view, as I see it, is that secular scholars are doing a much better job than religious scholars of pulling back the layers of history and mythology to get to what really happened as regards the development of Christianity in the early centuries of this era.
Personally, I think Richard Carrier is on to something in suggesting that the concept of the Word (ὁ λόγος
The titles of Minister of the Presence (שר הפנים
This concept seems to have existed in the Kabbalah long ago. Philo made the connection of the angel with Yeshua bar Yotzadak, as I mentioned, based on the name "Rising" (Ἀνατολή
Christianity early understood this connection of the Word to Yeshua, assuming him to be an angelic being that bore the glory and represented the presence of God. However, the early Christians changed things forever when they claimed that this angelic being took on flesh and became a sacrifice for the world's sin. This probably came about in imitation of Greek savior cults, in which they claimed that their gods were sacrificed for people's sins and came back from the dead. Bart Ehrman and Richard Carrier, both secular scholars, explain in their writings how Christianity began as a Jewish version of the savior cult system.
So, I disagree with you. I think that secular scholars have come to a much better, clearer, more lucid explanation of how Christianity could have developed from the Judaism of the time. What's most interesting is that none of this development would have hinged on Jesus being a historical person.
Do you think Judaism should have a kingdom form of government? Do you feel Torah support your view?
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yonah_mishael
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I don't know what that means? Do you mean "a monarchy"? What is "a kingdom form of government"?
Let's be clear - I haven't been talking about my own personal beliefs at any point here.
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The problem with your view, as I see it, is that secular scholars are doing a much better job than religious scholars of pulling back the layers of history and mythology to get to what really happened as regards the development of Christianity in the early centuries of this era.
Personally, I think Richard Carrier is on to something in suggesting that the concept of the Word (ὁ λόγος
The titles of Minister of the Presence (שר הפנים
This concept seems to have existed in the Kabbalah long ago. Philo made the connection of the angel with Yeshua bar Yotzadak, as I mentioned, based on the name "Rising" (Ἀνατολή
Christianity early understood this connection of the Word to Yeshua, assuming him to be an angelic being that bore the glory and represented the presence of God. However, the early Christians changed things forever when they claimed that this angelic being took on flesh and became a sacrifice for the world's sin. This probably came about in imitation of Greek savior cults, in which they claimed that their gods were sacrificed for people's sins and came back from the dead. Bart Ehrman and Richard Carrier, both secular scholars, explain in their writings how Christianity began as a Jewish version of the savior cult system.
So, I disagree with you. I think that secular scholars have come to a much better, clearer, more lucid explanation of how Christianity could have developed from the Judaism of the time. What's most interesting is that none of this development would have hinged on Jesus being a historical person.
We are, respectfully at a point of difference...
Throw Matthew thru Revelation out - in fact throw it all out but Genesis thru Deuteronomy and one is still left with its witness of the One Christ; the Son of the Living God; David's rightful heir: The Coming King of Israel.
Without the wisdom of this or that sage, nor of this or that secular historian, nor of this or that external writing...
Try The Book... over "books about..."
I realize "books about" can be fascinating, and there is much in them one can learn from...
But this really all boils down to what one actually believes about who actually was behind the Books The Book is supposedly comprised of...
But that will only result in your reasoning against my own.
As fun and as bright feeling as that might feel, honestly, I don't care for it. I know well how to take a thing apart as to its various properties, far better than most in many areas of life.
And yet, for all that, it has continued to prove nothing of any importance in contrast to when Moses went off on his own; wondering all those years what was going on within his destiny that it seemed to have so radically altered on him even before he'd been born.
I'll take faith in that understanding over your "books about."
Respectfully,
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yonah_mishael
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And this is where you insinuate that I don't read the Bible, that you know what the Bible teaches better than me, etc. etc. Sorry, I don't think so. As it is, you may choose faith as the basis for your "knowledge," but any so-called knowledge that is not based in evidence is no knowledge at all. You do not know through faith; you simply assume. You can keep your assumptions, though. That's your prerogative. However, when you use assumptions to further your faith claims, we have a problem.
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I am insinuating no such thing. You have read that into my words, as my insinuating such a things against would simply be an unfair call against you. What would I know as to where you invest your time or not?
Still, my apology if that is how my words came off.
And my own understanding is that one does not know through faith, rather, one knows through knowledge one then decides to place their faith in as sound, or not.
"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God," Romans 10:17.
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You missed, or read, into, His point as to the rightness of both David's and His Own action:
Matthew 12:
7. But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
8. For the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath day.
Mark 2:
27. And he said unto them, The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath:
28. Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath.
That difference between the letter of the Law and the perfect Law of liberty, or liberty within the Law, being the weightier matter of mercy under the Law over the letter for its own sake.
As later also, when, while dying for His people, the wrath of the Father set to fall; He prayed; based on this very mercy under the Law, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
He was dealing with "taste not, handle not," for its own sake, control freak, ritualist hypocrites.
The impact of His Words on their swiping at a gnat attitude having been
Matthew 12:
14. Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.
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Another question related to this topic occurred to me. It was mentioned earlier that the early Christians had Jewish practices. But what caused that to mostly dissapear over the centuries? Today, with the exception of Messianic Jews and a few churches who celebrate Passover, very few people today believe in both Jesus and the Hebrew religious customs. Why is that?
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yonah_mishael
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You said:
A statement which I took you to mean that I needed to stop reading books about the biblical accounts and to spend more time in the Bible.
You further said:
This indicates to me that you choose to believe rather than investigate. I don't think I was off in my offense at your statement.
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yonah_mishael
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As a result of the Jewish revolt against Rome, Christians sought to disassociate themselves from Judaism. Both 70 CE and 135 CE (the last Jewish revolt under Bar Kochba) put Christians in the position of showing Rome that they were "not Jews" in order not to become victims when Rome put down the rebellions. Most all Jewish identity of the religion was lost at that time.
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