Ash Wednesday, Still No Common Knowledge of Orthodoxy

Thekla said:

Our priest always wears his robe

When his eminence Ambrose (the metropolitan of Korea) visited our parish, he mentioned that wearing his robe had become an evangelical tool. On public transportation, people would point to him and exclaim "Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ". So then he had an opportunity to explain he was not Christ, and continue the conversation to tell of Christ ... and Orthodoxy.

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I get the impression Father might rather be wearing robes. I think the Bishop allows it, so perhaps he may be changing?

The first Church I visited and met with the priest for a couple of hours, he was wearing a robe. I had never seen a priest dressed that way. It did make an impression on me!

That story is pretty amazing though. I have to wonder if the people thought he was really Christ? If so, then it would seem they have some knowledge of the Gospel, but far too limited. I'm glad to hear it works as an evangelistic tool for him.

GregConstantine said:

I understand the hesitation to "advertise" because we don't want to try to "sell" Orthodoxy to people, like some Evangelicals try to "sell" their brand of "Christianity" to the masses.

I totally get that, however, in our situation, it would be as if no one has ever heard of a bookstore to begin with. Or perhaps a better example would be that there are "bookstores" selling what is being called "books", but the're not actually "books", but something else, but everyone thinks they are books. So why stop at the "real" (Orthodox) bookstore?

We have to somehow overcome that obstacle.

One thing about the Amish is that they live a very purposeful communal lifestyle that while keeps a certain distance from the world, still engages with the world to some degree. They don't need to "advertise" because they are so different from everyone else, they stand out.

We don't, we merge in with the world, we look, talk, and act like wordly people, have worldly jobs, do not live in a intentional communal manner, and engage in otherwise worldly activities. Or, we live in ethnic ghettos that focusing only on the ethnicity.

Not that there's anything wrong with having a worldly job and so on, but we can still live in a very intentional way while having our "worldly" jobs, schools, activities, etc.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I've tried to get other Orthodox people to do this but there is so much resistance to this.

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The point I was making re: the Amish was not related to their insularity, but the cost benefit analysis they make ...

To return to the point re: Modernism, the enlightenment, industrialization, and its Protestant roots ... do you recall the oft repeated phrase "the medium IS the message" ?

What we do affects who we are, who we are affects what we do.

Do we want to pursue modernist methods when we are not part of the movement of Modernism (in Art, in Philosophy, in Religion) ? How will this affect the Church's timelessness ?

It is Modernism in most if not all its iterations that rejects Tradition as debased. That attempts de-culturization, which along with its daughter globalization attempts to excise the store of value inherent in culture (which is the way we come to know and sense those things of potentially spiritual significance and, arguably, the capacity for spirituality itself). At least Post-Modernism rejects some aspects of Modernism, along with Modernism's attempt to enforce plurality in a way that undermines democracy and pluralism. Will we be most ready for the movement of history away from Modernism if we embrace it, full steam ?

Will we really remain "ourselves" as Orthodox ?

GregConstantine said:

ummm...I don't know? I mean, there's always been forces that have been opposed to Orthodoxy forever. In the time of the mission work of St Paul, there were forces opposing the Gospel. But St Paul stood upon Mars Hill and proclaimed the unknown God of the Athenians.

So, I think it behooves us to find ways in which we can engage the world around us without comproming ourselves. I'm not saying we should have advertisements on TV, I'm not a big fan of that, but why not make a really good, tastefully done PBS documentary for example?

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We are already engaging ... and thankfully, there have been documentaries which include Orthodox. (I just watched a BBC doc. on St. Paul that includes Orthodox Churches etc., but without making a big deal about them ... just as a normal part of history and Christendom.) There are sources online, etc. As the internet became a common method of communication, the EO has in a rather 'natural manner' utilized this new form of communication. And, having let this presence happen as a form of historical and societal 'evolution', can just as easily drop it if this form of communication becomes somehow obsolete.

Ie, things that develop organically tend to be healthier than things that are imposed.

Thekla said:

We are already engaging ... and thankfully, there have been documentaries which include Orthodox. (I just watched a BBC doc. on St. Paul that includes Orthodox Churches etc., but without making a big deal about them ... just as a normal part of history and Christendom.) There are sources online, etc. As the internet became a common method of communication, the EO has in a rather 'natural manner' utilized this new form of communication. And, having let this presence happen as a form of historical and societal 'evolution', can just as easily drop it if this form of communication becomes somehow obsolete.

Ie, things that develop organically tend to be healthier than things that are imposed.

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I wish I could remember the source. At that Bible study where Father recently spoke about outreach, he showed a short video. It is one of a series in production about Orthodoxy and he wanted us to discuss it.

I just can't remember the source offhand. I want to say it was an Archdiocese or a seminary. But there are more things along those lines in the works, apparently.

The biggest issue I see with some of these suggestions is they assume the presence of a parish already. I'm interested in this conversation precisely because I hope to, in a few years, be living in a place that has no parish. I want to be starting one up - I'm in seminary now. But how do I get people interested? I may or may not be ordained sooner rather than later, I don't know. If I am, I don't know if our bishop lets us wear the cassock and riassa always. Even if he allows it, in our jurisdiction one doesn't get to wear a cross until it is awarded. It's a perfect storm! LoL

I'm thinking most likely I will be moving home and have to try to start a mission without being ordained. This is probably a problem in more places than just my ol' hometown. I would love (and that's in no way being sarcastic) suggestions about how to evangelize in this type of situation as well, if any have them? So far all I can think of is a great website and public studies on the Bible and Church History.

You certainly have a point. Nearly every week, there is at least one caller into the live radio broadcasts where the main problem is no local parish. So there are certainly people interested in places with no parish, but who knows for any given place, and how to get them together?

The only kinds of "evangelism" I've ever been really disposed to are getting to know people, letting them know me, invite them to Church, answer their questions. Not necessarily in that order. Having a family in an area, might be a good springboard for in-home Bible studies and reader services where others might be interested in attending (especially the Bible studies).

I wish I could suggest more. But what I mostly know is what I would NOT suggest, as tactics used by some of the denominations I've been in before and which I never saw as the right way to reach people.

The great bulk of new converts that I know of have tended to learn of Orthodoxy online or by reading, and go looking for it themselves. (My view is likely skewed though, since I did the same and meet others like me through the same kinds of avenues.) But that would suggest that getting the information out is important, but how can you compete with thousands of competing voices and actually connect with those who are looking for the Church and open to learning?

Sorry, probably not helpful. I wish I had answers.

There is simply no unity or desire amongst any of the jurisdictions here in the Americas to put forth any such missionary efforts. And a great part of it hasn't of do with xenophobia and the fear of the "other." Look at the inner cities where crime and corruption are rampant and the majority population is either Black or Hispanic. It would be a great place to evangelize and set up missions, but due to the inhabitants race and social status it doesn't get done,. I can't speak for everyone of course, but many cradle Orthodox from the Old country AND THEIR CHILDREN are prejudice and it seeps into the Parish. I KNOW of some people in my parish who would have a coronary if Black people for example started coming to church in large numbers.

Look at the success the JWs, Mormons, Catholics and others have preaching in inner city neighborhoods. The culture of Orthodoxy in America needs to change ASAP.

Joseph Hazen said:

The biggest issue I see with some of these suggestions is they assume the presence of a parish already. I'm interested in this conversation precisely because I hope to, in a few years, be living in a place that has no parish. I want to be starting one up - I'm in seminary now. But how do I get people interested? I may or may not be ordained sooner rather than later, I don't know. If I am, I don't know if our bishop lets us wear the cassock and riassa always. Even if he allows it, in our jurisdiction one doesn't get to wear a cross until it is awarded. It's a perfect storm! LoL

I'm thinking most likely I will be moving home and have to try to start a mission without being ordained. This is probably a problem in more places than just my ol' hometown. I would love (and that's in no way being sarcastic) suggestions about how to evangelize in this type of situation as well, if any have them? So far all I can think of is a great website and public studies on the Bible and Church History.

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It is certainly easier if there are already some Orthodox in the area. A small, core group of faithful is going to make things a lot easier than trying to superman it all yourself. I've been involved with two missions starting from the ground up and one just a little after (that one is kind of abnormal). The one started with a few motivated people meeting regularly in living rooms with a handful of people for an akathist or something on a weekday evening. They eventually got enough people and money together to get a space and a priest to visit occasionally. This helped, and eventually they got enough people to convince a bishop to send a full-time priest out, and shortly after they purchased a building. The longest stretch of time was the living room to dedicated space time, frankly. It took a while. The second, again, had a core group of families working to get things off the ground, and eventually had enough people to trick a bishop into sending a priest out. They did not, however, really have regular services of any sort prior to that. A few years previous, they were able to have a priest come occasionally. About a year after the priest got sent out, they were able to purchase and move into a building. Anyway, it generally takes tireless work, and if it's 4 families doing tireless work, it goes better than if it's just one guy. And frankly you don't really get the converts until after at least the first layer has been set into place. In the first stage, at the very least, it's about finding the people who travel, or some of the people who are lapsed and want to come back, etc. A few people hopefully come out of the woodwork to help get started.

There are a few Orthodox families in the area, but how many I don't know, and how many are willing to put in the work to start a mission I don't know as well. I guess I'll just have to see how things go when I get there.

EDIT: ...and this is what happens when you forget that you're using your wife's computer to write your paper, and take a quick TAW break...

I am thinking of setting up a pub quiz team of members of the Orthodox church within the community.

Yes, yes, Lent couldn't be a worse time to think of frequenting taverns (sarsaparilla all round!), and the puritan in me would say that any game with financial element amounts to gambling.
Those ethical issues aside, it is a brilliant way to meet people in a corporate sense (representing church) but in a neutral environment where people will feel comfortable interacting.

I don't know what it is like in the USA but in the UK the ability to communicate freely and with strangers has grossly diminished in the past century. It is a sad game to play "don't make eye contact" on the London Underground. Everything insinuates. Pubs are neutral places where social contact is eased. And yes, I know there's a canon saying that clergy persons must not enter tavernas, they can stay outside with the dogs and smokers

It is about making non-intimidating, human encounters with the alien but local society.

I have heard Orthodox Christians described as eating nothing but lentils and breaking plates. Well at least there is some truth in the former, and the latter is projected stereotype, the moral, let the public know we are humans and we may get invited to dinner some time.

Even bodies not willing to do much work but willing to pop into services occasionally really help! But, yeah, this is one place where having the direction and support of your nearest parish is helpful.

Thekla said:

Our priest always wears his robe

When his eminence Ambrose (the metropolitan of Korea) visited our parish, he mentioned that wearing his robe had become an evangelical tool. On public transportation, people would point to him and exclaim "Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ". So then he had an opportunity to explain he was not Christ, and continue the conversation to tell of Christ ... and Orthodoxy.

Click to expand...

Reminds me of a story I heard of Fr. Tryphon going into a Chinese restaurant one time. The waiters saw his robes and thought, "Oh he is a holy man!" Then when he ordered dishes with no meat they thought, "Oh he is a VERY holy man!"

GregConstantine said:

I forgot to mentioned. I might be moving to a rather hipstery neighborhood in Baltimore that's got alot of cool coffee shops, pubs, bookstores, etc. I was thinking if I do move to that neigborhood, perhaps I'll start having a bible study of some sort at one of those establishments in that hipstery neighborhood.

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Do it. The only downside is that if the entire neighborhood becomes Orthodox the hipsters will say they were Orthodox before it was cool

Nik0s said:

There is simply no unity or desire amongst any of the jurisdictions here in the Americas to put forth any such missionary efforts. And a great part of it hasn't of do with xenophobia and the fear of the "other." Look at the inner cities where crime and corruption are rampant and the majority population is either Black or Hispanic. It would be a great place to evangelize and set up missions, but due to the inhabitants race and social status it doesn't get done,. I can't speak for everyone of course, but many cradle Orthodox from the Old country AND THEIR CHILDREN are prejudice and it seeps into the Parish. I KNOW of some people in my parish who would have a coronary if Black people for example started coming to church in large numbers.

Look at the success the JWs, Mormons, Catholics and others have preaching in inner city neighborhoods. The culture of Orthodoxy in America needs to change ASAP.

Click to expand...

I must agree.

There is an Orthodox parish in Eugene, OR. Eugene is known for two things: anarchists and aging hippies; quite frankly, a city with an extremely anti-Christian attitude in general. This parish moved into a building that used to be used by Satanists not only for their "worship", but also for the leaders of that community to run some illicit businesses that involved drugs, stolen goods, prostitution and maybe even human trafficking. It took the Orthodox some time, but they eventually won over the neighborhood and the city became quite happy that the Orthodox were able to "clean up".

One of the few things that I miss about Mississippi is that the parishes there are not homogenous. I remember the first time I stepped inside one of the churches in Jackson and thought how wonderful it is that a city and state notoriously known for its history of racial disharmony had such large, even numbers of whites and blacks.

What about about a Eastern Orthodox Roku/media streamer channel? I would seriously watch/listen to that as much as I do the Episcopal and EWTN channels especially if it had a chant radio

GregConstantine said:

Who said anything about being imposed? and why is that the knee jerk response everytime this is suggested? If we are so "engaging" why is there still such a tremendous lack of knowledge? Why does everyone know about the RC's, the Baptists, the Methodists, the Mormons, the JW's, the Muslims, the Jews, but not us? Where are our hosptals, our schools, etc?

Really? We want to find other, better ways to engage and spread the gospel and automatically we have to assume something is going to be "imposed" from above? Please tell me where is this reaction coming from?

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There is a tremendous lack of knowledge about all sorts of things ... we live in a busy society.

The groups you mention have had a longer large, often much more controversial, presence in US history which has attracted attention.

Otoh, things such as the rebuilding of St. Nicholas GOC at Ground Zero in Manhattan are a quieter, more organic, way to make our presence known.

(And it is wise to recall that the greater the attention the more likelihood of challenges.)

In our local community in PA, the Orthodox are a commonly 'known' group. This was not a function of advertising per se, but of an ongoing presence.

Positive participation in the local community goes a long way ... and often further than changing gears to 'advertise' our presence. The latter method (which I called an imposition, as measured against the timeless ethos, is a different medium) tends toward an abbreviated (often shallow, stereotyped) exposure. The former encourages a more fulsome knowledge of Orthodoxy - in the way we interact and what we do.

In my community for example, Orthodox have been helping to cook at soup kitchens, contributing food to shelters and food banks for decades. The community gets to know our 'ethos' before it knows more details about Orthodoxy. This is "backwards" from the 'louder' ways of becoming known, but far healthier.

I come from a country where not being an Orthodox is quite uncommon, so that is all new to me. I have lived in the USA, though, and I too have noticed the lack of the common knowledge of our faith - plus the lack of desire to share about it, sadly. Most people looked absolutely dubious when I mentioned about being Orthodox.