Was America founded on or meant to be Christian?

RedPonyDriver said:

Charity was a Jewish idea...remember the whole 7th year thing??? Old Testament?

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A Jewish idea?

JustOneWay said:

Strange that everybody else thinks it is a religion.

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I'm not "everybody" and neither are you.

Not exactly, Creech said it best and better than I could:

Creech said:

A government based on Christianity is different from a Christian people. It is pretty clear that the founding fathers were influenced by Enlightenment liberal ideas based on secularism when forming the United States government. At the same time, it was acknowledged that Americans were a Christian people coming from a Christian civilization and laws should reflect that while still maintaining secularism as a vital principle.

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Inkfingers said:

The early colonies were clearly and explicitly Christian.

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People were Christian, colonies were colonies.

Please explain to me how this is "out of context". Were these statements penned on opposite day? Is that the context? That's the only context I can think of to explain why these statements don't actually mean what they mean.

HerbieHeadley said:

A Jewish idea?

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Well that was a little anti-Semitic. Would you like to elaborate how Jews aren't charitable, or is now a good time to backpedal?

morningstar2651 said:

Please explain to me how this is "out of context". Were these statements penned on opposite day? Is that the context? That's the only context I can think of to explain why these statements don't actually mean what they mean.

"The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
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"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."​

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Please explain to me how this is "out of context".

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http://www.christianforums.com/t7866781-5/#post67062774
(post #42)

RedPonyDriver said:

Legislating this stuff is going WAY too far...conservatives want "small government" but they need to stay out of my bedroom and my doctor's office.

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Very true, but you have to take the pros with the cons on that stance.

Government should be staying out of the bedroom, I agree...but on the flip side, if that's going to be the position, then what goes on in in someone else's bedroom and doctor's office needs to stay out of my wallet.

...meaning, if someone wants to be irresponsible and have unprotected sex, that decision shouldn't be impacting my tax obligations by using tax money to subsidize abortions and contraception.

Short way of putting it: Don't tell me that I should have to chip in on something, but then say that it's none of my business.

miniverchivi said:

Very true, but you have to take the pros with the cons on that stance.

Government should be staying out of the bedroom, I agree...but on the flip side, if that's going to be the position, then what goes on in in someone else's bedroom and doctor's office needs to stay out of my wallet.

...meaning, if someone wants to be irresponsible and have unprotected sex, that decision shouldn't be impacting my tax obligations by using tax money to subsidize abortions and contraception.

Short way of putting it: Don't tell me that I should have to chip in on something, but then say that it's none of my business.

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Amen.

keith99 said:

Anything taken from the Declaration of Independence is poor evidence as to the U.S. being intended to be Christian.

Such a document has 2 parties involved. The one writing it and the one it is addressed to. At the time England was an explicitly Christian country with an official state religion which the King was the head of, by the grace of God.

Thus the declaration of Independence has to address that issue in a manner that will not alienate any devout Christians. The Declaration does so very well by making the argument rights come directly from God, not from God through the King.

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Yes, thank you.

Thomas Jefferson, in particular, was a huge believer in freedom of religion and did not want any particular religion imposed upon an individual.

We officially are a secular nation, even though some of the founding fathers were Anglican/Episcopalian or Unitarian, Presbyterian or Congregational etc.

RileyG said:

We officially are a secular nation, even though some of the founding fathers were Anglican/Episcopalian or Unitarian, Presbyterian or Congregational etc.

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Why do you put "some" in italics??? I mean, that's the one word that makes your statement wrong to begin with. MOST of the founding fathers were Anglican/Episcopalian or Unitarian, Presbyterian or Congregational, etc.

Not "some", but MOST.

That's just plain fact which can be easily checked.

I think the reason people make that same ignorant assertion that somehow most our founding fathers were mostly "deists" or otherwise non-Christian is due to one of two things:
1. They are part of this irreligious, anti-theist movement that is trying to either revise and rewrite history or at the very least sway public opinion into believing a falsehood about the founding fathers in order to bolster a more pro-secular attitude in the majority of the public, OR...
2. They are victims of the above and have ignorantly heard the lie over and over and now believe it without ever having researched it.

The weird thing about it is that the people who think that somehow revising history to make the founding fathers a majority deist or non-Christian are being ridiculous in thinking that this would somehow change anything. The founding fathers were overwhelmingly a majority of Christians YET they established a SECULAR government. It's too bad people feel so threatened by the Christianity that they hate so much that they must lie about the history of our nation.

RileyG said:

Yes, thank you.

Thomas Jefferson, in particular, was a huge believer in freedom of religion and did not want any particular religion imposed upon an individual.

We officially are a secular nation, even though some of the founding fathers were Anglican/Episcopalian or Unitarian, Presbyterian or Congregational etc.

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We officially are a secular nation

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Not according to those Founding Fathers, and the members of the first US Congress.

even though some of the founding fathers were Anglican/Episcopalian or Unitarian, Presbyterian or Congregational etc.

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The phrase "Founding Fathers" is a proper noun. It refers to a specific group of men, the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention. There were other important players not in attendance, like Jefferson, whose thinking deeply influenced the shaping of our nation. These 55 Founding Fathers, though, made up the core.

The denominational affiliations of these men were a matter of public record. Among the delegates were 28 Episcopalians, 8 Presbyterians, 7 Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics, 1 unknown, and only 3 deists--Williamson, Wilson, and Franklin--this at a time when church membership entailed a sworn public confession of biblical faith.[John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution, (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1987)]

miniverchivi said:

Maybe a better way to phrase it

"Principles they embraced based on the influence of their faith".

For example, charity isn't a Christian-specific principle, however, someone my embrace it specifically due to their Christianity.

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OK, I can understand that but then it isn't a Christian principle as it relates to the founding of the country.

So if that person was in a position of power and promoted charity, one could say that Christianity influenced that decision.

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One could say that Christianity influenced the decision to accept that principle, but not that it was a Christian principle to begin with.

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TheChristianSurvivalGuide said:

It is asserted by some that the Founders used Christian ideals and at times specifically referenced Biblical writing in the formulation of our key documents. Most often discussed is Christian morals being a foundation of "Unalienable rights" and the Creator being referenced being an Abrahamic deity, specifically the Christian "God", or Jahweh, Elohim, Jehova.

I have offered an argument to this premise in other threads that were not directly related to this issue but tjought it best to start this thread in the American Politics area.

Do you agree that Christianity was the moral grounding for our nation or was it something else? Is thete any evidence to support your idea?

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No.

Yes my skin color and my sex.

Red Fox said:

I can't help but wonder if Thomas Jefferson extended that freedom of religion to all the slaves he owned or to the other minorities he encountered during that time in history. If I were to guess a wager, knowing American history fairly well, I would have to say no he didn't.

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Thank you for that fine example of a Red Herring fallacy.

And as a historical note, Jefferson actually did "extend that freedom of religion to all the slaves he owned or to the other minorities he encountered".

praying said:

No.

Yes my skin color and my sex.

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Purely as a matter of curiosity, what has either your skin color or your sex to do with the facts of history? Either the assertion is factually sound, or it is not.

Facts are notoriously slippery things.

CaDan said:

Facts are notoriously slippery things.

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Yes, that is true.