Stop hitting your child! Jamaicans who hit their children are engage in child abuse..

Inkachu · Feb 15, 2015

Devorim said:
I need to stop here and admit something. When my first husband died, and I chose this way to rear my children, I knew that without spanking, I would need to apply twice the amount of parenting time, in order to make up for his absence and for not spanking. I threw myself into being with, with, with, with them to the ultimate. We conversed, conversed, conversed. Every why was answered. Every how was answered. Without corporal punishment, everything has to be given attention, with love.

Same here. It takes a lot more work, a lot more emotional investment, a lot more internal strength, to understand and engage a child and work with them, than to resort to spankings or punishing them without also correcting and teaching them. My son recently got in trouble for something pretty serious at school. I could have just sent him to his room and left him there for a week. Instead, I went in and not only talked to him about what he'd done and what the consequences would be, but also about how it had made me and my husband feel, how it affected us, and how hurt and saddened we were. My son was able to express his own feelings, which were very hard to hear, and I had to stand there and watch him cry with my heart just about breaking in pieces, but being present for that is part of being a parent. I had to allow him to talk about how miserable he felt, how he feared everyone would hate him, how he didn't feel his life was worthwhile, all kinds of hormonal, emotional stuff. I didn't interrupt him, even though I could have said "Oh stop it, nobody hates you, stop being so dramatic". But in that moment, that's how he felt, and his feelings need to be respected and heard just as much as anyone else's. And it killed me inside to listen to him, but in that moment, it wasn't about me being comfortable, it was about being present with my son in his hurt. Would it have been easier to just go in my bedroom and let him stay in his room and act like I'd done my job as a mom? Sure. Would I have truly done my duty as his mother? No way.

I will never forget the day when he cried, hard, to me, "I don't want to be like this!" That precious child -- he just wanted direction, and I was his caregiver while his parents worked. I looked him in the eyes and said, "I will never hit you, but I expect you to be nice." He drank that in. And he tried me. And he learned.

This is what ALL kids crave. They want to know their boundaries, they want to know what's expected of them, they want to know the consequences of their actions, both positive and negative. They want to feel valued, listened to, and cared about. Kids who act out are MISSING something! He was very blessed to have you for his grandmother!

Devorim · Feb 15, 2015

Was just remembering how my first husband and I decided not to have children: we were scared to death of my abusing them. So when I realized I was pregnant, I read and watched everything I could find, trying to learn what to do, how to do it, what is acceptable/unacceptable.

Oh, was G-d protecting us! One of the authors I read was Dr. James Dobson. Through my readings, it was as though He kept blinders over my eyes! I only saw, in his books, what I wanted to see.

Years later, after my strong-willed grandson was born, the people on the non-spanking forum askedme who all I had been reading. When I brought up Dobson, they went nuts! They told me what he had written, and I argued, denying it. We were going on vacation, so they challenged me to rebuy the books and read them again. I was stunned. When we got home, I had to apologize to them about my denial. I simply did not see much of what he wrote and recommended.

Thought of this because I woke up this morning with my shoulder hurting bad. That made me remember his advice regarding the child's trapezius muscle.

poolerboy0077 · Feb 15, 2015

Notice how the child psychologists who work with "problem children" never have to resort to spanking in order to get them to behave and comport themselves. The dichotomy that either you spank or you have children running wild and undisciplined is a false one. Many parents just follow blindly the ways of parenting that they were exposed to and never bother learning anything about alternative and ethical, evidence-based approaches to child rearing.

Devorim · Feb 15, 2015

poolerboy0077 said:
Notice how the child psychologists who work with "problem children" never have to resort to spanking in order to get them to behave and comport themselves. The dichotomy that either you spank or you have children running wild and undisciplined is a false one. Many parents just follow blindly the ways of parenting that they were exposed to and never bother learning anything about alternative and ethical, evidence-based approaches to child rearing.

Really?

poolerboy0077 · Feb 15, 2015

Devorim said:
Really?

Really.

Of course it's hard to see this when parents evaluate themselves. They'll often scoff at the data showing the negative psychological impact (like lower IQs, say) corporeal punishment has by seeing themselves as functioning adults in society and then proclaiming: "I was spanked as a kid and I turned out just fine!"

Devorim · Feb 15, 2015

poolerboy0077 said:
Really.

Of course it's hard to see this when parents evaluate themselves. They'll often scoff at the data showing the negative psychological impact (like lower IQs, say) corporeal punishment has by seeing themselves as functioning adults in society and then proclaiming: "I was spanked as a kid and I turned out just fine!"

Hey. Wait a minute. I misunderstood you. I should get some sleep.

Messy · Feb 15, 2015

poolerboy0077 said:
Notice how the child psychologists who work with "problem children" never have to resort to spanking in order to get them to behave and comport themselves. The dichotomy that either you spank or you have children running wild and undisciplined is a false one. Many parents just follow blindly the ways of parenting that they were exposed to and never bother learning anything about alternative and ethical, evidence-based approaches to child rearing.

Yes. I saw a few programs of Supernanny. These kids behaved just terrible, there were parents who broke all their spoons on them. She taught them how to raise their kids in a normal way and they became well behaved.

bhsmte · Feb 15, 2015

poolerboy0077 said:
Really.

Of course it's hard to see this when parents evaluate themselves. They'll often scoff at the data showing the negative psychological impact (like lower IQs, say) corporeal punishment has by seeing themselves as functioning adults in society and then proclaiming: "I was spanked as a kid and I turned out just fine!"

Psychological problems later in life, are tied heavily to emotional and or physical abuse as a child.

PersephonesTear · Feb 15, 2015

waves said:
Published: Sunday | July 6, 2014
Stop hitting your child! Jamaicans who hit their children are engaged in child abuse, charges UN representative

Regardless of anyone's opinion on "proper" spanking, I highly doubt that anyone on this forum would advocate flogging, whipping, or beating their child. That IS child abuse, and if that is a cultural thing in Jamaica, then it is good that there are organizations like UNICEF that are trying to inform them. If abuse is ingrained so much into a culture that it seems "normal" to them, how else are they going to learn but to be told?

I've seen a few episodes of that "World's Strictest Parents" show that was recommended in the OP. I don't recall seeing any of the teenagers who are featured being spanked or beaten in any of the episodes that I watched. It also seemed highly staged and sensationalized, which is not surprising because Reality Television is often that way.

Inkachu · Feb 15, 2015

Devorim said:
Was just remembering how my first husband and I decided not to have children: we were scared to death of my abusing them. So when I realized I was pregnant, I read and watched everything I could find, trying to learn what to do, how to do it, what is acceptable/unacceptable.

Oh, was G-d protecting us! One of the authors I read was Dr. James Dobson. Through my readings, it was as though He kept blinders over my eyes! I only saw, in his books, what I wanted to see.

Years later, after my strong-willed grandson was born, the people on the non-spanking forum askedme who all I had been reading. When I brought up Dobson, they went nuts! They told me what he had written, and I argued, denying it. We were going on vacation, so they challenged me to rebuy the books and read them again. I was stunned. When we got home, I had to apologize to them about my denial. I simply did not see much of what he wrote and recommended.

Thought of this because I woke up this morning with my shoulder hurting bad. That made me remember his advice regarding the child's trapezius muscle.

I'm curious - what books were you reading??

Devorim · Feb 15, 2015

Inkachu said:
I'm curious - what books were you reading??

Oh, man, Inkachu! My "babies" are in their 40s now. I don't remember, but I do know that those not by Dobson were not by proclaimed believers. I do remember trying to find Dr. Spock's original book and not finding it to this day! Still would like to have it. I don't think Mother ever saw it herself, but she sure had a lot to say about it.

I think the most effective thing for me was a 2-hour show on an educational TV channel in Minneapolis in the very early 70s about child abuse. Wow, that got my attention.

bill5 · Feb 15, 2015

waves said:
What Jamaicans and others need to know is that nothing is wrong with spanking. Spanking is not abuse.

Persons need to watch on YouTube "The World's Strictest Parents". This is where western countries have a lot of teens who are out of control, and they have to be sending some of these teens to countries such as Jamaica, India to get disciplined. So the same persons in the United Nations stating that spanking is child abuse, teens in their own countries are completely out of control.

Another thing I want to mention is that sometimes children refuses to hear when they are being talked to. You tell them to do something, or not to do something and they don't listen. There are situations where children have suffered greatly because of their disobedience. For example: a mom may tell a child not to swim by themselves, the child disobeys and ends up in the hospital or worse. Children need strong guidance because they do not understand the danger that is around us everyday. They are not old enough to understand that disobedience can lead to death.

In my own family a relative told her son (who was about 11 or 12 at the time) not to climb up somewhere high in particular. Her son did not listen and unfortunately her son ended up losing one of his limbs through that act of disobedience. I wonder if she had spanked him, if she was stricter with him, if it would have made him not climb up. This one act of disobedience has lived with him permanently, and still affects him as an adult mentally.

Spanking makes the children know that their actions can lead to pain, hurt. Children as I said before do not understand the dangers that is around them and need to know that actions have serious consequences.

Nice try, but you just did the equivalent of dousing yourself with honey and hoping no ants show up. Surprise, didn't work.

Spitting into the wind, but props for trying anyway. Now don't touch me or I'll sue you for "hitting" me and abuse. The horror!

Audacious · Feb 15, 2015

waves said:
Published: Sunday | July 6, 2014

Stop hitting your child! Jamaicans who hit their children are engaged in child abuse, charges UN representative

*** I had a dream last night, and in the dream I saw a news article that the army in Jamaica was saying that teachers should not beat pupils as it is child abuse. I saw that there were 200 comments about it, and the number 200 was in red

What Jamaicans and others need to know is that nothing is wrong with spanking. Spanking is not abuse.

Persons need to watch on YouTube "The World's Strictest Parents". This is where western countries have a lot of teens who are out of control, and they have to be sending some of these teens to countries such as Jamaica, India to get disciplined. So the same persons in the United Nations stating that spanking is child abuse, teens in their own countries are completely out of control.

Another thing I want to mention is that sometimes children refuses to hear when they are being talked to. You tell them to do something, or not to do something and they don't listen. There are situations where children have suffered greatly because of their disobedience. For example: a mom may tell a child not to swim by themselves, the child disobeys and ends up in the hospital or worse. Children need strong guidance because they do not understand the danger that is around us everyday. They are not old enough to understand that disobedience can lead to death.

In my own family a relative told her son (who was about 11 or 12 at the time) not to climb up somewhere high in particular. Her son did not listen and unfortunately her son ended up losing one of his limbs through that act of disobedience. I wonder if she had spanked him, if she was stricter with him, if it would have made him not climb up. This one act of disobedience has lived with him permanently, and still affects him as an adult mentally.

Spanking makes the children know that their actions can lead to pain, hurt. Children as I said before do not understand the dangers that is around them and need to know that actions have serious consequences.

It's a shame that the majority of psychologists disagree with you. Who's going to tell all of the experts with doctorates in their field that someone with no qualifications has completely disproven them???

SoldierOfTheKing · Feb 15, 2015

Audacious said:
It's a shame that the majority of psychologists disagree with you. Who's going to tell all of the experts with doctorates in their field that someone with no qualifications has completely disproven them???

Do the children of psychologists turn out better than other children?

bill5 · Feb 15, 2015

Audacious said:
It's a shame that the majority of psychologists disagree with you. Who's going to tell all of the experts with doctorates in their field that someone with no qualifications has completely disproven them???

LOL

Audacious · Feb 15, 2015

SoldierOfTheKing said:
Do the children of psychologists turn out better than other children?

There's not really any data on this that I could find, but given that psychologists have spent years studying psychology and its effects and have a lot more resources than your average person does to research and understanding parenting psychology, the answer is probably 'yes'.

Even if it wasn't, though, it wouldn't matter that much, because your advice can be solid even if you don't follow it yourself. (For instance, a fat doctor can tell patients to lose weight and still be correct in their reasoning.).

Blue Wren · Feb 16, 2015

Corporal punishment, is was abolished, in my country, when 35+ years ago, was rare, even before then. It's one of the most civilised countries, in the world. Parents, teachers, they simply learned, other means, to discipline / punish.

Cearbhall · Feb 16, 2015

Audacious said:
It's a shame that the majority of psychologists disagree with you. Who's going to tell all of the experts with doctorates in their field that someone with no qualifications has completely disproven them???

I mean, spanking works perfectly if you're just trying to make a person obey you, but it's not going to do much by itself if you're, you know, trying to raise a human child to be an independent adult in society. The "talking to" is what does that, along with all the other socialization that occurs.

Messy · Feb 16, 2015

Cearbhall said:
I mean, spanking works perfectly if you're just trying to make a person obey you, but it's not going to do much by itself if you're, you know, trying to raise a human child to be an independent adult in society. The "talking to" is what does that, along with all the other socialization that occurs.

Obey you out of fear which can make someone rebellious later.

Cearbhall · Feb 16, 2015

Messy said:
Obey you out of fear which can make someone rebellious later.

Exactly. It only produces the desired effect if you want obedience to be the person's moral system forever.

Note to those who spank: I'm not claiming that spanking your kids will doom them to be robots. Of course not. Your children are lucky enough to receive other forms of moral education, whether it's from you, other people, personal experience, or all of the above. What I'm saying is that, if a child who was spanked turns out alright (the mantra that everyone seems to use), it wasn't because of the spanking. Hitting someone does not and cannot help develop critical thinking skills. Pain does not help a human comprehend right and wrong. You could almost call spanking a placebo.

Stop hitting your child! Jamaicans who hit their children are engage in child abuse..

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