The Identity of Gog and His Allies.

Rev20 · Feb 10, 2015

Biblewriter said:
There can be zero question that at least almost none of the people who remained in Jerusalem were faithful to God. Yet many of them survived. It is true that almost all of the survivors were made slaves, but they survived.

So it is absolutely certain that at that time, the physical nation of Israel was not reduced to the point that it contained only the true spiritual Israel.

According to Christ and Paul it was. The true Jews were all Christians. There were some who claimed to be Jews, but they were, in fact, the synagogue of Satan. They most certainly WERE NOT, and ARE NOT, Israel.

Biblewriter · Feb 13, 2015

Biblewriter said:
There can be zero question that at least almost none of the people who remained in Jerusalem were faithful to God. Yet many of them survived. It is true that almost all of the survivors were made slaves, but they survived.

So it is absolutely certain that at that time, the physical nation of Israel was not reduced to the point that it contained only the true spiritual Israel.

Rev20 said:
According to Christ and Paul it was. The true Jews were all Christians. There were some who claimed to be Jews, but they were, in fact, the synagogue of Satan. They most certainly WERE NOT, and ARE NOT, Israel.

You are not even answering my statement. What I said was that the physical Israel, Paul's "brethren acccording to the flesh, who are Israelites," (Romans 9:3-4) were never reduced until they comprised only the true spiritual Israel. (Romans 9:6) There is no way to rationally deny the truth of this statement.

And Paul did not teach otherwise, for he clearly said:

1Brethren, my hearts desire and prayer to God for £Israel is that they may be saved. 2For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3For they being ignorant of Gods righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. (Romans 10:1-3)

So here we find Paul whom you say taught otherwise, clearly calling a certain group of people "Israel," clearly saying that they "have not submitted to the righteousness of God." Adding "they have not all obeyed the gospel." (Romans 10:16)

Biblewriter · Feb 13, 2015

Rev20 said:
Biblewriter, that is not the way the scripture explains the "isles:"
"And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations." -- Gen 10:4-5 KJV
Kittim is usually associated with Cyprus.

The location of Tarshish is unclear, but seems to be either Carthage (Tunisia) or southern Spain.

The location of Elishah is mentioned as either Cyprus or the Aeolians (islands north of Sicily,) and also northern Africa.

Dodanim is generally considered the islands around Rhodes off Asia Minor and east of Crete.

Throw away the oddball, southern Spain, and you are left with central to eastern Mediterranean islands or ports, as expected.

I have no idea who it is thay you are quoting that "generally" think these things, but you obviously have not even bothered to look up the definition of Kittim.

Kittim indeed was Cyphrus. And specifically, it meant that and nothing else. But this Hebrew word was also used in a general sense to denote the isles of the sea, and of the coastlands beyond them, as can be seen in its usage in Ezekiel 27:6 and Daniel 11:30.

Straightshot · Feb 14, 2015

Response to the OP

Satan and the Muslims of the Middle EAst

Biblewriter · Feb 16, 2015

Straightshot said:
Response to the OP

Satan and the Muslims of the Middle EAst

Gomer is not a middle east nation.

Straightshot · Feb 16, 2015

All of the land designates given in Ezekiel 38 are considered to be Middle Eastern states today .... and they are all primarily adherents of Islam

The early post flood Gomerites inhabited what is now northern Iran

Biblewriter · Feb 16, 2015

Straightshot said:
All of the land designates given in Ezekiel 38 are considered to be Middle Eastern states today .... and they are all primarily adherents of Islam

The early post flood Gomerites inhabited what is now northern Iran

Biblical Gomer was called Gamer in the ancient Armenial texts. We see this in the “History of the Armenians,” by Moses Khorenats’i, trans. Robert W. Thompson, Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1978. On page 74 he lists T’orgom as the son of T’iras, son of Gamer, son of Yapeth, son of Noah. Compare this with Genesis 10:1-3. “Now this is the genealogy of the sons of Noah: Shem, Ham, and Japheth. And sons were born to them after the flood. The sons of Japheth were Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras. The sons of Gomer were Ashkenaz, Riphath, and Togarmah.”

The Assyrians called this people the Gamerraaa and described them sufficiently to identify them as the people whom the Greeks called Cimmerians. We see this in “The Royal Correspondence of the Assyrian Empire,” translated and transliterated by Leroy Waterman, Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press, 1930. part I, pg. 74. On pg. 75 this Assyrian word is translated “Cimmerians,” with a footnote identifying them as the classical Cimmerii and Biblical Gomer. (part III, pg. 53) Another letter in this collection called the Gimiraa “the people of the steppe.” (part II, pg. 361) It is well known that the ancient homeland of the Cimmerians was the steppe region of southern Russia. Yet another letter in this series locates the lands of Guriania and Nagiu as between the lands of Urartu and Gamirra. (part I, pg 101)

These facts are noted on pages 675 and 246 of “State Archives of Assyria, Volume V - The Correspondence of Sargon II, Part II”, ed by Giovanni B. Lanfranchi and Simo Parpola, Helsinki University Press, 1990.

So the changes of the name, as we progress through various languages, was:

Biblical Gomer is
Armeniah Gimmer, which is
Assyrian Gimmer, the father of the Gimmerraa, which is:
Greek Cimmerians.

It is a well known fact of history that the Scythians eventually drove the Cimmerians out of the steppe regions, and that they settled in western Europe. It is also a well known fact of history that the Cimmerians were the ancestors of the people that the Romans called the Gauls.

This is why Josephus stated (“Jewish Antiquities,” by Flavius Josephus, Book 1, chapter 6, section 123) that Gomer is the Galatians, that is the "Gaul-atians" which is what this word actually means. For the Roman province of Galatia was a settelment of Gauls that had, at a later date, migrated back from Europe into what is now Turkey.

All this is, as I said, commonly known history. As is the fact that the Gauls are the ancestors of the modern Celts, or Kelts, as they are sometimes called.

So Gomer, rather than being a middle eastern nation, is the root stock of western Europe, and through them, most of North America and Australia.

Notrash · Feb 17, 2015

Rev20;

BW haspreviously admitted to having ahermeneutic whic states that the words of the bible are intended by "the holy spirit" to be understood and interpreted by the reader as they are literalky read from the text.

He has stated and agreed that if a letter or passage can be shown from its context to have a certain intended meaning and understandiþg by its human author; but a literal reading of the passage provides a different, even sometimes opposite meaning; the literal meaning (though possibly opposite from its human author) is the interpretation intended by "the holy spirit. Rom 9-11 is one such passage where the dispensational "literal preaent time/futurist reading of the passage is in opposition to the intended message of the apostle.

BW's hermeneutic principles ignores apostolic illuminatiin in favor of verbal-plenary "God breathing"

Becauae of that hermeneutic, he allows himself to ignore the apoatles intent in Rom 9-11 and twists that intent contrary to the text.

He cannot see that "all Israel" refers to the household of faith in Christ as exemplified in the epr-imaging of the tri-unity of Abraham/Isaac (Jesus) and jacob/Israel. This 3 some is later exemplified in the "olive tree" of romans 11. The root is the Father, the trunk is Jesus and indwelt believers/eaters of Jesus are the branches.

Israel of 30-70 AD had majorly/individually been lopped ofc the father by disbelief in Jesus.... but SOME (part) of them would be destined to believe-recieve through the testimony of the joy and fullness of God that they would encounter in believers among the nations. This first century jealousy (unto emulatiin) had been prophecied to occur during the last generatiin of the mosaic covt nation in Deut 32:19-21.

BW'S hermeneutic allows him to declare HIS interpretatiin and literal present reading OVER the intent and meaning of the apostolic, illuminated writer.

It has been futile in the past ti discuss rom 9-11 or Dan 9 or many other passages with him or many other dispys.

Biblewriter said:
You are not even answering my statement. What I said was that the physical Israel, Paul's "brethren acccording to the flesh, who are Israelites," (Romans 9:3-4) were never reduced until they comprised only the true spiritual Israel. (Romans 9:6) There is no way to rationally deny the truth of this statement.

And Paul did not teach otherwise, for he clearly said:

1Brethren, my hearts desire and prayer to God for £Israel is that they may be saved. 2For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3For they being ignorant of Gods righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. (Romans 10:1-3)

So here we find Paul whom you say taught otherwise, clearly calling a certain group of people "Israel," clearly saying that they "have not submitted to the righteousness of God." Adding "they have not all obeyed the gospel." (Romans 10:16)

Notrash · Feb 17, 2015

It was never prophecied that national Israel would be reduced to a spiritual Israel only of faith.

National Israel of the mosaic covt entity CEASED in 27-70 AD.

Those who were lopped off from the father are part of the sea of humanty, same as the aboriginy or european; able to be graphed into the love of the father (to all humanity) through reasonable, logical faith in his Good visitatiin.

Biblewriter said:
You are not even answering my statement. What I said was that the physical Israel, Paul's "brethren acccording to the flesh, who are Israelites," (Romans 9:3-4) were never reduced until they comprised only the true spiritual Israel. (Romans 9:6) There is no way to rationally deny the truth of this statement.

And Paul did not teach otherwise, for he clearly said:

1Brethren, my hearts desire and prayer to God for £Israel is that they may be saved. 2For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3For they being ignorant of Gods righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. (Romans 10:1-3)

So here we find Paul whom you say taught otherwise, clearly calling a certain group of people "Israel," clearly saying that they "have not submitted to the righteousness of God." Adding "they have not all obeyed the gospel." (Romans 10:16)

Biblewriter · Feb 19, 2015

Notrash said:
It was never prophecied that national Israel would be reduced to a spiritual Israel only of faith.

National Israel of the mosaic covt entity CEASED in 27-70 AD.

Those who were lopped off from the father are part of the sea of humanty, same as the aboriginy or european; able to be graphed into the love of the father (to all humanity) through reasonable, logical faith in his Good visitatiin.

A reduction of all Israel to the point where it includes no more rebels is indeed clearly stated in Ezekiel 20, where we read:

"

33As I live, says the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you. 34I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out. 35And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. 36Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you, says the Lord GOD.

37I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; 38I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord."

And the repemtance of all that are left in the land is clearly stated in Zecharian 12, where we read:

7The Lord will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah. 8In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. 9It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of £Megiddo. 12And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves."

There is no rational way to even pretend that either of these prophecies has been fulfilled.

Notrash · Feb 25, 2015

Yes indeed; yhey are fulfikked at the time of the new covt. Read the context of Ez 20. The covt now being made in these verses is the new covt. The "rebels" are those who rebelked against hearing the new covt. God pled through the apostles that they would leave the mosaic covt.

Thus "all Israel" of the new covt that had been previously ratified through the fathers (Abe-Isaac-Jacob/Israel is the ONLY 'ISRAEL' in covt with God. It is made up of peoples of any race whose faith is in the Goodness of the Creator with the Good visitatiin of his sonand his esablishment of the NEW way and new law of faith.

Just as no one can say Jesus is lord without his indwelling, so also no one of " ALL ISRAEL"
would deny Jesus and the lordship of his Goodness and new doctrine in their lives. To do so would be to be one of the 'rebels' and to be outside of 'all Israel'.

God pled with the velievers in Christ to leave judaism, cross back over Jordan to the wilderness, just as he pled with the israelites to leave Egypt and the cross Jordan to the promised land.

Read vs 20 & following where God says that he gave them instructiins that were not Good. Then connect deut 30 as a prophecy about Christ and the new law of the new covt and its GOOD principles and laws.

Biblewriter said:
A reduction of all Israel to the point where it includes no more rebels is indeed clearly stated in Ezekiel 20, where we read:

"
33As I live, says the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you. 34I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out. 35And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. 36Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you, says the Lord GOD.

37I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; 38I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord."

And the repemtance of all that are left in the land is clearly stated in Zecharian 12, where we read:

7The Lord will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah. 8In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. 9It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of £Megiddo. 12And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves."

There is no rational way to even pretend that either of these prophecies has been fulfilled.

Job8 · Feb 25, 2015

Interplanner said:
btw, how do millenialists usually explain the coordination of Gog and Magog at the end of the millenium? Are they simmering the whole time? Is the millenium's rod of iron not effective enough to change them?

Apparently not. It is possible that there are several generations within the Millennium (let's say 15) and the last generation is a rebellious generation, but simmering under the rod of iron. The minute Satan is released from the Bottomless Pit, he goes to work to gathers all these rebels together from the four corners of the earth.

It is hard to believe that even after the Millennium there could be a rebellion, since the first generation under Christ would apparently be saved. But since that is what is revealed, that is how it will be. And the armies of this battle will be utterly destroyed with supernatural fire. The main outcome will be the final consignment of Satan to Hell -- prepared for the devil and his angels (Rev 20:10).

Straightshot · Feb 25, 2015

"It is hard to believe that even after the Millennium there could be a rebellion, since the first generation under Christ would apparently be saved. But since that is what is revealed, that is how it will be. And the armies of this battle will be utterly destroyed with supernatural fire. The main outcome will be the final consignment of Satan to Hell -- prepared for the devil and his angels (Rev 20:10)."

True

The devil addressed by the Lord as Gog tries twice .... once at Armageddon, and the next at the end of the Lord's coming millennial kingdom

The first try wins him a stint in the abyss

.... the next puts him way forever

Gog and Magog ..... Satan and the rebelling nations

Notrash · Feb 26, 2015

A clarification:
Chapters 4-24 are speaking of Judahs apostacy and the reasons for the Babylonian captivity even though Ezekiel is prophecying from within the captivity. This is from 2 outlines that I've read. Thus the purging of the rebels would have initially been accomplished through the 70 yrs of Babylonian captivity. Recall how Dan and his mates passed through the firey furnace and the lions Den. Furthermore, when the Persians under Cyrus came to conquer Babylon, they engaged the majority of the army outside the city. Then, when they entered the city, the majority of the inhabitants of city fled, were pursued by the Persians and were slaugtered. The Jews on the other hand stayed put, expecting the deliverance from captivity. Those who fled weould have been classed with the babylonians. Thus the natiin was purged from the rebelliius and faithess.

BUT; many aspects of the Babylonian cativity were a foreshadow of the the believers in Christs "captivity' under the oppression of the mosaic covt judaism, many elements including the purging of the disbelieving rebels from the followers of Christ and freedom in the new covt applied.

The restoration discussed in Ez 20 would thus be the same restoration from babylonian captivity prophecied in deut 30, but with secondary application towards being drawn out of 'babylon'of mosaic covt Israel by the fulfilled establishing of the new covt.

Notrash said:
Yes indeed; yhey are fulfikked at the time of the new covt. Read the context of Ez 20. The covt now being made in these verses is the new covt. The "rebels" are those who rebelked against hearing the new covt. God pled through the apostles that they would leave the mosaic covt.

Thus "all Israel" of the new covt that had been previously ratified through the fathers (Abe-Isaac-Jacob/Israel is the ONLY 'ISRAEL' in covt with God. It is made up of peoples of any race whose faith is in the Goodness of the Creator with the Good visitatiin of his sonand his esablishment of the NEW way and new law of faith.

Just as no one can say Jesus is lord without his indwelling, so also no one of " ALL ISRAEL"
would deny Jesus and the lordship of his Goodness and new doctrine in their lives. To do so would be to be one of the 'rebels' and to be outside of 'all Israel'.

God pled with the velievers in Christ to leave judaism, cross back over Jordan to the wilderness, just as he pled with the israelites to leave Egypt and the cross Jordan to the promised land.

Read vs 20 & following where God says that he gave them instructiins that were not Good. Then connect deut 30 as a prophecy about Christ and the new law of the new covt and its GOOD principles and laws.

FredVB · Mar 5, 2015

For many, many years, as a Christian believer reading the Bible regularly, I understood Gog as being the one leading Russia and its allies against people of Israel, they would be defeated and there would be lasting peace under real rule of Yahweh there; there would also be the attack from the Beast shown in Revelation, who would be defeated with Christ returning with his rule of the Millennium being established. I haven't heard anything different about these things from teachers of Bible topics. Yet there is difficulty in resolving a sequence of when two events as these would happen. Ultimately, after decades of no further insight, not that it had great importance among things to know from the Bible, I gave up on trying to think of it that way. I am more convinced now that there isn't great basis to say that those passages are about different events, unless we are to read them with our understanding of contemporary developments in our world. It seems to me the leader Gog is representing the Beast of Revelation, that would have control and lead forces of the world against people in Israel. This would suggest leadership over Europe anyway would amount to Russian power dominating.

BABerean2 · Mar 5, 2015

Fred V B said:
For many, many years, as a Christian believer reading the Bible regularly, I understood Gog as being the one leading Russia and its allies against people of Israel, they would be defeated and there would be lasting peace under real rule of Yahweh there; there would also be the attack from the Beast shown in Revelation, who would be defeated with Christ returning with his rule of the Millennium being established. I haven't heard anything different about these things from teachers of Bible topics. Yet there is difficulty in resolving a sequence of when two events as these would happen. Ultimately, after decades of no further insight, not that it had great importance among things to know from the Bible, I gave up on trying to think of it that way. I am more convinced now that there isn't great basis to say that those passages are about different events, unless we are to read them with our understanding of contemporary developments in our world. It seems to me the leader Gog is representing the Beast of Revelation, that would have control and lead forces of the world against people in Israel. This would suggest leadership over Europe anyway would amount to Russian power dominating.

You may find the article in the link below interesting, even if you do not agree with the conclusion of the author.

Is the Gog Magog War the Battle of Armageddon ?
Gog of Magog - Here a little, there a little - Prophecy

.

Biblewriter · Mar 5, 2015

Fred V B said:
For many, many years, as a Christian believer reading the Bible regularly, I understood Gog as being the one leading Russia and its allies against people of Israel, they would be defeated and there would be lasting peace under real rule of Yahweh there; there would also be the attack from the Beast shown in Revelation, who would be defeated with Christ returning with his rule of the Millennium being established. I haven't heard anything different about these things from teachers of Bible topics. Yet there is difficulty in resolving a sequence of when two events as these would happen. Ultimately, after decades of no further insight, not that it had great importance among things to know from the Bible, I gave up on trying to think of it that way. I am more convinced now that there isn't great basis to say that those passages are about different events, unless we are to read them with our understanding of contemporary developments in our world. It seems to me the leader Gog is representing the Beast of Revelation, that would have control and lead forces of the world against people in Israel. This would suggest leadership over Europe anyway would amount to Russian power dominating.

Actually, the scriptures never say that the great attacker that comes down on Judah is "the Beast." That idea is based on interpretations of a few scriptures, while neglection other scriptures that clearly identify this attacker as "the Assyrian," an end time individual that is found in Isaiah 7, 10 14, 30, and 31, Micah 5, and every chapter of Nehemiah. The scriptures about this individual are normally missed because students assume they are only speaking of Sennacherib, who attacked Judah during the righteous reign of Hezekiah. I have reviewed these scriptures in the following thread:

The neglected character in end time prophecy http://www.christianforums.com/t6571768-4/

The scriptures indicate the timing of this attack as the middle of Daniel's seventieth week. This is found in Daniel 9:27 and Matthew 24:15-22. And Psalm 83 lists the nations that will participate in this attack. That list is completely different from the list of nations that will participate in the attack led by Gog. These nations are reviewed in the beginning of this thread.

Ezekiel 38 and 39 contain five different "date stamps" that show that this attack will not come at the middle of the week, but after it is over. Sadly, the prejudice about the pre-tribulation timing of this attack has led many to miss these clear date stamps. I have reviewed these in the following thread:

The timing of Ezekiel 38 and 39
http://www.christianforums.com/t7327255-34

tranquil · Mar 6, 2015

Gog is indeed the last war event before the New Jerusalem 'comes down'.

1st the harlot of Rome is burned (the one that "is" in Rev 17:9), to make way for the 4th beast of Daniel 2/ the 7th beast in the lineage of Revelation 17.
"Israel" is scattered
The Assyrian (the lead beast from the sea that has 7 heads) rules with the false prophet
The beast and the false prophet are killed

Dan 7

9 As I looked,
thrones were placed,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat;
his clothing was white as snow,
and the hair of his head like pure wool;
his throne was fiery flames;
its wheels were burning fire.
10 A stream of fire issued
and came out from before him;
a thousand thousands served him,
and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;
the court sat in judgment,
and the books were opened.

11 I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

The rest of the beasts lose their dominion for a season and a time. These 'leftover' beasts from the 7 headed Satan (the beast was the 7th) comprise Gog.
Israel and Judah are gathered and given 1 head (2 sticks of Ezek 37)
Israel and Judah live safely.
Gog war. Israel and Judah start to burn the weapons for 7 years.
New Jerusalem comes down

Also the Gog war of Ezekiel 38/ 39 is the same event described in Rev 20.

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit[a] and a great chain. 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven[b] and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

But Rev 20 is the only place in the entire Bible that talks about the "1000 years". The entire notion of the "millenial kingdom" rests on these few verses shown above.

Why is there a 1000 year wait for the New Jerusalem to come down? It only comes down after the Gog war... But the New Jerusalem is at the end of Daniel 9's 70 weeks prophecy...

But Dispensationalists want to say the end of Dan 9's 70 weeks is the end of the "7 year tribulation"...

The notion of the "millenial kingdom' is the reason why people can't understand the Gog war.

Clearly, it isn't really a literal "1000 years". It is a reference to the Day of the Lord.

2 Peter 3

4 They will say, Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation. 5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,[a] not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies[b] will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

The "Day of the Lord" is the Trumpets and (start of the bowls) is the "1000 years".

Rev 6
12 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. 14 The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave[e] and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?

Rev 16

12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east. 13 And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs. 14 For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. 15 (Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!) 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

The Day of the Lord ends with Armageddon. Armageddon ends the Assyrian and strips the rest of the beasts of their authority (Dan 7 above). That's why Christ's kingdom comes at Trumpet 7.

And how long is this Day of the Lord? 1 year. all references Isa 34:8 Cross References (18 Verses)

Isa 61
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me,
because the Lord has anointed me
to bring good news to the poor;[a]
he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim liberty to the captives,
and the opening of the prison to those who are bound;[b]
2 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor,
and the day of vengeance of our God;
to comfort all who mourn;
3 to grant to those who mourn in Zion
to give them a beautiful headdress instead of ashes,
the oil of gladness instead of mourning,
the garment of praise instead of a faint spirit;
that they may be called oaks of righteousness,
the planting of the Lord, that he may be glorified.[c]
4 They shall build up the ancient ruins;
they shall raise up the former devastations;
they shall repair the ruined cities,
the devastations of many generations.
5 Strangers shall stand and tend your flocks;
foreigners shall be your plowmen and vinedressers;
6 but you shall be called the priests of the Lord;
they shall speak of you as the ministers of our God;
you shall eat the wealth of the nations,
and in their glory you shall boast.
7 Instead of your shame there shall be a double portion;
instead of dishonor they shall rejoice in their lot;
therefore in their land they shall possess a double portion;
they shall have everlasting joy.

The season and a time that the beasts get to live includes the year of recompense. After the year of recompense, comes the Gog war. This is the 70 weeks/ 490 days/ the season and a time. The Gog war ends the 70 weeks prophecy and then the New Jerusalem comes down. Not after a literal 1000 years (but no one will be literal about 70 weeks... hmmmm.)

Choose Wisely · Mar 6, 2015

Gog Magog occurs after the 1000 years..........just like the Bible says.

The fact that many insist on claiming it happens twice is quite puzzling.

I think it comes from not understanding who the king of the North and the King of the South is in the last days. Russia is not the king of the North UNTIL after the 1000 years. And Egypt is certainly NOT the king of the south.

Bible2 · Mar 8, 2015

Job8 said in post 192:

It is possible that there are several generations within the Millennium (let's say 15) and the last generation is a rebellious generation, but simmering under the rod of iron. The minute Satan is released from the Bottomless Pit, he goes to work to gathers all these rebels together from the four corners of the earth.

The Gog/Magog attack on Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39) will indeed occur after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), when there will be no defensive walls or fear of attack in Israel whatsoever (Ezekiel 38:11). This is the exact opposite of today's situation, when Israel is filled with very high defensive walls and is in constant fear of attack. At the beginning of the millennium, all present-day weapons of war throughout the world will be destroyed and they won't be allowed to be remade during the millennium (Micah 4:3-4). That is why after the millennium, the Gog/Magog armies will employ only rudimentary, wooden weapons like bows and arrows, spears, shields, and clubs (Ezekiel 39:9), which, after the defeat of the Gog/Magog armies, will be able to be used as convenient firewood by the people living in Israel at that time, instead of them having to go out and collect or cut down firewood from the forest (Ezekiel 39:10).

The Gog in Revelation 20:8 is the same as in Ezekiel chapters 38-39: an individual human whose personal name is "Gog" (Ezekiel 38:3). He will be the chief leader of a future country which will form somewhere north of Israel (Ezekiel 39:2, Ezekiel 38:15), and which will be called "Magog" (Ezekiel 38:2). It will include at least 2 major cities and/or tribes which will be called "Meshech" and "Tubal" (Ezekiel 38:2). This country could come into existence during the millennium. Gog could be born near the end of the millennium, and he will be killed and buried at the end of the Gog/Magog event (Ezekiel 39:11).

Both accounts of the event show that the Gog/Magog armies will ultimately be completely defeated by miraculous fire from heaven (Ezekiel 38:22, Revelation 20:9). While the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur subsequent to the Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-15), nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the great white throne judgment has to happen immediately after that event. For there will be at least 7 years (Ezekiel 39:9b) between the end of that event and the great white throne judgment.

Also, the Gog/Magog attack won't have to (as is sometimes claimed) involve only the nations listed in Ezekiel chapters 38-39. Those nations could be just a sampling. For the "nations" (ethnos), or peoples, who will be involved in the Gog/Magog attack will come from all over the earth (Revelation 20:8). They will still be physically part of Jesus' worldwide kingdom, still legally under his rule, just as they had been during the preceding millennium (Psalms 72:8-11, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2). But after the millennium, they will be deceived by Satan into committing the attack (Revelation 20:7-10).

Also, while the Gog/Magog attack on Israel won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Israel could suffer a different attack before the millennium, at the start of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which attack could result in Israel's total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17).

And Jerusalem could be attacked and totally defeated in the future at least 3 times before the millennium: once near the start of the future tribulation (Daniel 11:22), then again mid-tribulation (Daniel 11:31), and then at the tribulation's end (Daniel 11:45), right before Jesus' 2nd coming and the start of the millennium (Zechariah 14:2-21).

The Identity of Gog and His Allies.

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