And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels waged war against the Dragon

Originally Posted by Danoh
. . . I believe that "once in, ever in" Rom. 5; Eph. 1.

If you believe likewise than we are brothers in Christ regardless of your being off-base in your Eschatology.

Rev20 said:

What if someone doesn't believe exactly like you do, Danoh?

Not to complicate the issue, but how do you interpret this passage?

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." -- Heb 6:4-6​

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If they don't believe in "once in, ever in" then perhaps they got in but then what's out there - like misinterpretation of passages like that one in Hebrews you cite here - got a hold of them, and they are "still in," but confused.

Fallen from their understanding of this grace wherein we stand before God in His Son, justified in Him, and thus, at peace with us, as far as God is concerned, Gal. 5:4; Romans 5:1.

Contrary to popular opinion faith in Christ is not a religion it is a Person. There is a religion in the Bible - the perfect law of liberty that is the Mosaic Law to those to whom that pertains - the Coming Liberator it both pointed that nation to and will celebrate Him through as His peculiar people pointed out as such through said Law.

Along that line, as to the above Hebrews passage, this is the Mid-Acts Perspective...

The Body of Christ began with God's demonstration of His longsuffering in its first member: the Apostle Paul in Acts 9 [Romans 9:22-23; 1 Timothy 1:11-16].

In other words, under Grace - Mystery Grace, at that, Eph. 3, in contrast to John 1's and 1 Peter's Prophesied Grace.

In this, Romans thru Philemon are Body Truth [Jew and Gentile in one New Man, with, or after, Israel's fall], Romans 1-3; 9-11; etc.

Hebrews thru Revelation being Truth as to the Believing Remnant of Israel - the Israel of God.

In this, passages like Hebrews 2 and Hebrews 6 are speaking to Israel concerning that Pentecost foretaste of their word to come. They saw the God of their fathers work great miracles in Acts by His Spirit; they tasted their world to come.

For them to reject that, was to reject the Son that foretaste confirmed. Many of them of which would have the Son die for their nation all over again as they did not believe the Spirit's witness.

In this, Hebrews thru Revelation bear a pre-Acts 28 writing. James 1:1, for example, matches Acts 8:1, etc. 2 Peter 3, taking up where Peter left off in Acts 3 and so on...

As God interrupted pouring out His 2nd Advent wrath, per Romans 9, Hebrews thru Revelation's truth thus awaits a time prior to the 2nd Advent.

The parenthesis is not that Church which is His Body. Rather, His delay in His return to His Messianic Church is: its belief "Thou art the Christ; the Son of the living God: the King of Israel," John 1; Matt. 16 Acts 1-3; 1 Peter 1; 2 Peter 3, etc.

That God chose to do this - that I describe below - in the interim of said Prophesied delay, Daniel 9, is what throws people off as to what the actual parenthesis is.

Romans 9:

22. What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23. And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24. Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

This here is on hold, as it is actually a continuation of Paul's earlier thought as to what of Israel:

25. As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28. For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

That is on hold, as this plays out:

30. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33. As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Verse 32 and 33 are Matthew thru John - it speaks of their stumbling. Romans 11 deals with their fall.

This here - Romans 10:19, 20 - deals with the Early Acts witness comprised of those of Israel considered nobodies by the fallen religious elite of that nation - thus, "lost sheep" or "sheep without a shepherd" - their ishermen, tax collectors, the poor and even harlots, who believed on Him - the Israel of God, in contrast to those of that nation uncircumcised in their hearts and ears, verses 18a, 21:

18. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Verse 18b is creations witness itself to that nation. Here is this "little flock" within a disobedient and gain saying nation:

19. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Just as Isaiah had prophesied as to who among that nation would believe on their Messiah - their nobodies.

Anyway, that is a very short perspective of the scope, context, and thus, the uniquely intended sense that passages like Hebrews 6 are to be understood in light of.

Rev20 said:

Not me, you! A few pages back I claimed that real water was not being turned to blood, because the symbolism for the water--the rivers and fountains of water--was the same that was used for the Holy Spirit in both the old and the new testaments. This is part of your reply:

"Here we go, spiritualize the literal again! Is it any wonder why your theories are wrong? I guess you forgot:​

Revelation 16:6​

For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.​

This is REAL WATER John is talking about. " -- http://www.christianforums.com/t7863243-16/#post66987451​

You should at least keep track of what you write; otherwise the casual reader might think you are arguing for the sake of arguing.



Are you claiming that Babylon the Great of the Revelation is Jerusalem?

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No, not really, it is JOHN proclaiming that boldly. I just wrote what John had already written: Babylon the Great is "that great city." But John had previously told us that the "Great city" was Jerusalem.

I also added that Jesus will return to JERUSALEM, not the Vatican! Satan knows Jesus will return to Jerusalem; that is why the armies of the world will gather THERE, not near the Vatican or any other city of the world. It is Jerusalem that God has made a stumbling block for the whole world.

iamlamad said:

No, not really, it is JOHN proclaiming that boldly. I just wrote what John had already written: Babylon the Great is "that great city." But John had previously told us that the "Great city" was Jerusalem.

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Like I said, you are the one that brought it up, not me, as you insinuated.
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iamlamad said:

I also added that Jesus will return to JERUSALEM, not the Vatican! Satan knows Jesus will return to Jerusalem; that is why the armies of the world will gather THERE, not near the Vatican or any other city of the world. It is Jerusalem that God has made a stumbling block for the whole world.

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Those are futurist talking points, not found in the Holy Scriptures. The Revelation states that the armies of Satan would to up on the breadth of the earth, which is the entire earth, by definition.

Then it states his armies would compass the camp of the saints. The only place the New Testament states the saints can be found is in the spiritual Holy Temple (Ephesians 2:19-22,) or as the founding members of the earliest churches, which is essentially the same thing. When we become Christians we become fellowcitizens with the saints.

Finally it states that his armies would also compass the beloved city. One would be hard-pressed to prove that physical Jerusalem is the "beloved city." Rather, it is known in the scriptures as a harlot, the city of bondage, and the murderer of servants and prophets of the Lord; not to mention the murder of the Lord himself. The true beloved city is the Jerusalem above--the heavenly Jerusalem on mount Sion--where the Lord and his angels reside (Heb 12:22-24.) It also exists on the earth as His Church.
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Jesus said the blood of the prophets would be on the heads of those of his own generation. For that reason alone, any true literalist would demand that Babylon the Great was first century Jerusalem.

These are the scriptures in question. The first prophecy shows that a prophet cannot perish outside of Jerusalem:


In another gospel, Jesus bluntly declares that Jerusalem kills the prophets, and He mentions no other city:


Here Jesus states that the blood of all the prophets, some of whom are apostles, would be on the heads of His own generation (we have been fresh out of prophets and apostles since the first century):



Notice in that last statement that the prophets Jesus sent to Jerusalem were scourged in the SYNAGOGUES! That tends to rule out the Roman Catholic Church.
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So much for first century Jerusalem. Now for Babylon the Great of the Revelation:




So, the blood of the prophets was also found in the city of Babylon the Great, and only in Jerusalem. Therefore, It is completely illogical to believe that Babylon the Great is any other city than first century Jerusalem.

As I have been saying all along, that part of the Revelation--avenging the blood of servants--was fulfilled in the first century by the Lord's vengeance upon the city Jerusalem, resulting in over a million Jews killed or starved to death, and the total and complete desolation of the city of Jerusalem and its illustrious temple. That also fulfilled this prophecy by Moses:


His land is the entire earth, that is, the breadth of the earth; and His people are Christians.

Rev20 said:

Like I said, you are the one that brought it up, not me, as you insinuated.
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Those are futurist talking points, not found in the Holy Scriptures. The Revelation states that the armies of Satan would to up on the breadth of the earth, which is the entire earth, by definition.

Then it states his armies would compass the camp of the saints. The only place the New Testament states the saints can be found is in the spiritual Holy Temple (Ephesians 2:19-22,) or as the founding members of the earliest churches, which is essentially the same thing. When we become Christians we become fellowcitizens with the saints.

Finally it states that his armies would also compass the beloved city. One would be hard-pressed to prove that physical Jerusalem is the "beloved city." Rather, it is known in the scriptures as a harlot, the city of bondage, and the murderer of servants and prophets of the Lord; not to mention the murder of the Lord himself. The true beloved city is the Jerusalem above--the heavenly Jerusalem on mount Sion--where the Lord and his angels reside (Heb 12:22-24.) It also exists on the earth as His Church.
.

Jesus said the blood of the prophets would be on the heads of those of his own generation. For that reason alone, any true literalist would demand that Babylon the Great was first century Jerusalem.

These are the scriptures in question. The first prophecy shows that a prophet cannot perish outside of Jerusalem:

"Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem." -- Luke 13:33​

In another gospel, Jesus bluntly declares that Jerusalem kills the prophets, and He mentions no other city:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" -- Matt 23:37​

Here Jesus states that the blood of all the prophets, some of whom are apostles, would be on the heads of His own generation (we have been fresh out of prophets and apostles since the first century):

"I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." -- Luke 11:49-51​

"Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." -- Matt 23:34-36​

Notice in that last statement that the prophets Jesus sent to Jerusalem were scourged in the SYNAGOGUES! That tends to rule out the Roman Catholic Church.
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So much for first century Jerusalem. Now for Babylon the Great of the Revelation:

"And I saw the woman [Babylon the Great] drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration." -- Rev 17:6​

"Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her." -- Rev 18:20​

"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." -- Rev 18:24​

So, the blood of the prophets was also found in the city of Babylon the Great, and only in Jerusalem. Therefore, It is completely illogical to believe that Babylon the Great is any other city than first century Jerusalem.

As I have been saying all along, that part of the Revelation--avenging the blood of servants--was fulfilled in the first century by the Lord's vengeance upon the city Jerusalem, resulting in over a million Jews killed or starved to death, and the total and complete desolation of the city of Jerusalem and its illustrious temple. That also fulfilled this prophecy by Moses:

"Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people." -- Deu 32:43​

His land is the entire earth, that is, the breadth of the earth; and His people are Christians.

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Your timing is about a thousand years off! You are writing of the battle that takes place AFTER Satan will be loosed for a season which will be after the Millennial reign of Christ. I am talking about the end of THIS age. Jerusalem WILL BE the beloved city for those thousand years.

I will agree with Jerusalem, but I did not leave common sense at home. It will be FUTURE Jerusalem. I know this is a word that preterists leave out of their vocabulary. It is very plain to most people that the events of the trumpets and vials are still future to us today. In fact, we are still waiting on the pretrib departure of the church, so the 6th and 7th seals can be finished.

iamlamad said:

Your timing is about a thousand years off! You are writing of the battle that takes place AFTER Satan will be loosed for a season which will be after the Millennial reign of Christ. I am talking about the end of THIS age. Jerusalem WILL BE the beloved city for those thousand years.

I will agree with Jerusalem, but I did not leave common sense at home. It will be FUTURE Jerusalem. I know this is a word that preterists leave out of their vocabulary. It is very plain to most people that the events of the trumpets and vials are still future to us today. In fact, we are still waiting on the pretrib departure of the church, so the 6th and 7th seals can be finished.

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According to a plain reading of the scriptures, your timing is way off; and your claim that you understand the timing of the opening of the seals demonstrates that you have left common sense behind. I recommend in the future you avoid highly symbolic passages that force you to add your own words to make them appear understandable.

Danoh said:

John 12:31 is 2nd Advent - Literal - "not yet."

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Once more John 12:31...focus on the time factor:
31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

To show how you've misread the passage, Jesus connects this to His crucifixion in John 12:32, 33:
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.

The "time factor"...is the word "NOW"...the trigger of the time factor is His crucifixion Danoh.

You're in error as I see this!

ebedmelech said:

Once more John 12:31...focus on the time factor:
31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

To show how you've misread the passage, Jesus connects this to His crucifixion in John 12:32, 33:
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.

The "time factor"...is the word "NOW"...the trigger of the time factor is His crucifixion Danoh.

You're in error as I see this!

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That's a good point, ebed. Jesus did say 'now'.

And I also remember hearing Five for Fighting say 'History starts now'. So Jesus did not say 'THEN the judgement of the world shall be. THEN the prince of the world shall be cast out.'

So Jesus must have meant 'now', as in 1st (and only) Advent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ihvEcDFxvo

Rev20 said:

According to a plain reading of the scriptures, your timing is way off; and your claim that you understand the timing of the opening of the seals demonstrates that you have left common sense behind. I recommend in the future you avoid highly symbolic passages that force you to add your own words to make them appear understandable.

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7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

The very plain reading of this verse tells us that John is talking about AFTER the 1000 year reign of Christ - which reign has not even started yet. So what you were talking about is MORE than a thousand years into our future. I understand "future" is difficult for some to grasp, but it is TRUTH.

This is a perfect verse to demonstrate:

If the plain sense makes good sense seek no other sense lest it result in nonsense

"When the thousand years are expired" makes very good sense just as it is written. A beginning reader would understand John's meaning with no problems. I understand many try to make this 1000 year period of time something symbolic - so they end up with nonsense.

iamlamad said:

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

The very plain reading of this verse tells us that John is talking about AFTER the 1000 year reign of Christ - which reign has not even started yet. So what you were talking about is MORE than a thousand years into our future. I understand "future" is difficult for some to grasp, but it is TRUTH.

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For the record, Orthodox Christians believe the millennium began about the time of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, such as this belief statement by the Southern Baptist Baptist Covention:


The belief that the millennium has not yet begun is based on unorthodox doctrine. These are some of the many verses that legitimize Orthodox Christianity:





There are no verses in the New Testament that legitimize Unorthodox doctrine.

Therefore, your notion that the millenium will begin in the future is based on an Unorthodox Myth! I recommend you make those reading your posts aware that your doctrine is unorthodox so there will be no misunderstanding.

iamlamad said:

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

The very plain reading of this verse tells us that John is talking about AFTER the 1000 year reign of Christ - which reign has not even started yet. So what you were talking about is MORE than a thousand years into our future. I understand "future" is difficult for some to grasp, but it is TRUTH.

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That's the problem...you're reading it plainly when the passage itself gives you the clue it's not a literal thousand years.

iamlamad said:

This is a perfect verse to demonstrate:

If the plain sense makes good sense seek no other sense lest it result in nonsense

"When the thousand years are expired" makes very good sense just as it is written. A beginning reader would understand John's meaning with no problems. I understand many try to make this 1000 year period of time something symbolic - so they end up with nonsense.

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Why then, if it's literal, must John say "WHEN" the thousand years are ended? If it's a literal thousand there's nothing left to say because a thousand ends at 1000.

The Peter quotes Psalm 90:4 in 2 Peter 3:8:
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.


John is dealing with a vision in Revelation 20 which was revealed to him by Christ's angel. That puts the thousand years in a heavenly vision given from God's perspective, so the thousand years fit more from God's viewpoint!!!

Rev20 said:

Originally Posted by iamlamad

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

The very plain reading of this verse tells us that John is talking about AFTER the 1000 year reign of Christ - which reign has not even started yet. So what you were talking about is MORE than a thousand years into our future. I understand "future" is difficult for some to grasp, but it is TRUTH.
​

For the record, Orthodox Christians believe the millennium began about the time of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, such as this belief statement by the Southern Baptist Baptist Covention:

"God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. …Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly…the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness. The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell. …The righteous… will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord." -- Southern Baptist Convention, Basic Beliefs​

The belief that the millennium has not yet begun is based on unorthodox doctrine. These are some of the many verses that legitimize Orthodox Christianity:

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." -- Matt 28:18​

"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." -- 1Cor 15:25-26​

"Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him." -- 1Pet 3:22​

"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool." -- Heb 10:12-13​

There are no verses in the New Testament that legitimize Unorthodox doctrine.

Therefore, your notion that the millenium will begin in the future is based on an Unorthodox Myth! I recommend you make those reading your posts aware that your doctrine is unorthodox so there will be no misunderstanding.​

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"There are no verses in the New Testament that legitimize Unorthodox doctrine."


This is a true statement, because if it is written in God's word, such as the 1000 year reign of Christ is written, it is "orthodox" or the correct belief, no matter if no one on earth believed it.

My notion of a 1000 year reign of Christ is certainly "orthodox," first because it is written, and second because it is generally accepted doctrine by millions today.

Here are some general definitions of "orthodox:"
conforming to what is generally or traditionally accepted as right or true; established and approved.

of, relating to, or conforming to beliefs, attitudes, or modes of conduct that are generally approved.

accepted as true or correct by most people : supporting or believing what most people think is true

conforming to established doctrine especially in religion

The word “orthodox” means “right belief” or “right praise.”

This is perhaps the definition you would go with:
In the years after Jesus’ Resurrection, apostles and missionaries traveled throughout the known world spreading the Gospel. Soon five major locations were established as centers for the faith: Jerusalem, Antioch, Rome, Alexandria, and Constantinople. In the year 1054 the Roman church broke from this united Church, and five hundred years later Protestant churches began breaking away from Rome. But the original Church has remained united in the Apostolic Faith since the first century. This is Orthodoxy.

This is ONE definition of Orthodoxy. And what they teach today is far removed from what was taught by the Apostles.

If by "orthodox" you mean what the Apostles taught, I guess the so named "Orthodox" churches of today are not really "orthodox," for they teach that water baptism is the cure for "ancestoral" or original sin, while the bible teaches that one must become "born again" or reborn of the Holy Spirit. Today this is called "regeneration," where God creates a NEW human spirit.

Today there are perhaps 1.2 billion Catholics in the world. I will ignore this number, because they are so far off from the truth of scripture they really don't count. (I will admit I don't know much of the Eastern Catholic churches.) Perhaps some do teach "original sin" and the "born again" road.

There are 800 million protestants. (According to one website.) Of these perhaps half or slightly more are modern protestants. (The rest would be historical protestantism. Examples would be Orthodox, Quakers, Anabaptists, Hussites, Methodists, Reformed, etc.)

So we have around 500 million modern protestant denominations.

Eastern orthodox: 225 to 300 million
Pentecostal: 280 million

Here is the written statement of beliefs from the lagest Pentecostal denomination, Assembly of God:


1. The Bible is inspired by God and is "the infallible, authoritative rule of faith and conduct".
2. There is only one true God who exists as a Trinity.
3. Jesus Christ is the Son of God and, as the second person of the Trinity, is God.
4. Man was created good by God but was separated from God through original sin.
5. Salvation "is received through repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ".
6. There are two ordinances. Believer's baptism by immersion is a declaration to the world that the believer has died and been raised together with Christ, becoming a new creation. The Lord's Supper is a symbol expressing the believer's sharing in the divine nature of Christ, a memorial of Christ's suffering and death, and a prophecy of Christ's second coming.
7. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a separate and subsequent experience following conversion. Spirit baptism brings empowerment to live an overcoming Christian life and to be an effective witness.
8. Speaking in tongues is the initial physical evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit.
9. Sanctification is "an act of separation from that which is evil, and of dedication unto God". It occurs when the believer identifies with, and has faith in, Christ in his death and resurrection. It is understood to be a process in that it requires continual yielding to the Holy Spirit.
10. The Church's mission is to seek and save all who are lost in sin; the Church is the Body of Christ and consists of all people who accept Christ, regardless of Christian denomination.
11. Divinely called and scripturally-ordained ministers serve the Church.
12. Divine healing of the sick is provided for in the atonement.
13. The "imminent and blessed hope" of the Church is its rapture preceding the bodily return of Christ to earth.
14. The rapture of the Church will be followed by the visible return of Christ and his reign on earth for a thousand years.
15. There will be a final judgment and eternal damnation for the "wicked dead".
16. There will be future new heavens and a new earth "wherein dwelleth righteousness".

I agree with there statements of belief.

ebedmelech said:

That's the problem...you're reading it plainly when the passage itself gives you the clue it's not a literal thousand years.

Why then, if it's literal, must John say "WHEN" the thousand years are ended? If it's a literal thousand there's nothing left to say because a thousand ends at 1000.

The Peter quotes Psalm 90:4 in 2 Peter 3:8:
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.


John is dealing with a vision in Revelation 20 which was revealed to him by Christ's angel. That puts the thousand years in a heavenly vision given from God's perspective, so the thousand years fit more from God's viewpoint!!!

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It is comical seeing you try to squirm out of or around a scripture clearly written! It is true that God sees time much differently that we do, but the 1000 year reign of Christ will be EARTH YEARS, not heaven years. In other words, 1000 times the earth will circle the sun.

iamlamad said:

"There are no verses in the New Testament that legitimize Unorthodox doctrine."


This is a true statement, because if it is written in God's word, such as the 1000 year reign of Christ is written, it is "orthodox" or the correct belief, no matter if no one on earth believed it.

My notion of a 1000 year reign of Christ is certainly "orthodox," first because it is written, and second because it is generally accepted doctrine by millions today.

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There is nothing orthodox about chiliasm (a thousand-year reign on earth,) nor is there anything in the scripture that states the 1000 year reign would begin at any time after the first century, nor that it would be from any throne but the Lord's throne in Heaven.

Everything you believe about the millennium had to be spiritualized. In fact, it was spiritualized from an already false doctrine of Judaism; that is, it is a spiritualization of a spiritualization. LOL! That is why it has been, and always will be considered unorthodox, and will always be a Jewish fable.

This week my wife and I met with a missionary and his wife who are spreading the Gospel to the Arabs.

He speaks the Arab tongue, which was one of the 16 known languages spoken on the day of Pentecost.

The true scriptural test of speaking in tongues is that you are speaking one of the known languages.

If someone is babbling nonsense in an unknown language, which requires an "interpreter", then they are not displaying the gift given on the day of Pentecost.

.

iamlamad said:

It is comical seeing you try to squirm out of or around a scripture clearly written! It is true that God sees time much differently that we do, but the 1000 year reign of Christ will be EARTH YEARS, not heaven years. In other words, 1000 times the earth will circle the sun.

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Nothing to squirm about. What's comical is you don't see the PERSPECTIVE that John's delivering in Revelation. Everything John sees and hears is from the angel Jesus gave to give John the vision. Therefore again:

When will you deal with "WHEN THE THOUSAND YEARS ARE OVER..." Lamad? You can say they're "earth years"...but where does the scripture say that? IT DOESN'T. Yet there are several scriptures where God uses one thousand to indicate an uncertain amount OR period of time. For instance:
Deuteronomy 7:9:
Know therefore that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

What happens with the 1,001st generation Lamad? That is a classic way God uses thousand to indicate ALL generations.

Psalm 50:10:
“For every beast of the forest is Mine, The cattle on a thousand hills.

How about the 1001st hill Lamad? Another classic way God indicate ALL with a thousand.

So you can call it "squirming"...but I'll call it looking from HOW God communicates using a thousand.

When Jesus returns and judgment begins...you'll understand the "thousand years" represented the full time Christ reigned...from His resurrection where God CROWNED HIM with glory and honor (as Hebrews 2:7 says)...OR better yet when Jesus told the apostles in Matthew 28:18:
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

How does Jesus not reign having ALL AUTHORITY in HEAVEN and ON EARTH Lamad?

Jesus REIGNS NOW...and ALL believers reign with Him...whether they know it or not...and the "thousand years" represent the full reign of Jesus until He judges the world in righteousness, and returns the kingdom to God, as 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 describes!

I believe in the literal 1000 year reign of Christ. I don't even spiritualize the 1000 years. I believe it is 1000 literal earth years.

However, for one to be part of it, they must be a beheaded soul that took part in the first resurrection, which is the spiritual resurrection, and not the second resurrection which is the bodily, general resurrection. And no where does it ever say that either they, or Christ are on earth.


As long we we abide by what they text actually says, I have no problem with the literal 1000 year reign; as long as it is limited to those souls who were beheaded and refused the mark of the Beast and who took part in the first resurrection, which is the spiritual resurrection in Christ and not the second, general resurrection of the body; and as long as they don't try to make Christ come down and set up an earthly kingdom, when he is already reigning in the heavenly kingdom with those of the first resurrection.

revelation2217 said:

and as long as they don't try to make Christ come down and set up an earthly kingdom, when he is already reigning in the heavenly kingdom with those of the first resurrection.

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Well, you wrong. Jesus is going to be reigning and ruling from right here on earth. Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the Armageddon feast on the carion, then it says the Lord, who is Jesus, is going to set his glory among the heathen. Verify by Psalms 2, God is going set his King, His Son, on the holy hill of Zion, which is Jerusalem,

17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood. 18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord God.
21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

Zehcariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

revelation2217 said:

I believe in the literal 1000 year reign of Christ. I don't even spiritualize the 1000 years. I believe it is 1000 literal earth years.

However, for one to be part of it, they must be a beheaded soul that took part in the first resurrection, which is the spiritual resurrection, and not the second resurrection which is the bodily, general resurrection. And no where does it ever say that either they, or Christ are on earth.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.​

As long we we abide by what they text actually says, I have no problem with the literal 1000 year reign; as long as it is limited to those souls who were beheaded and refused the mark of the Beast and who took part in the first resurrection, which is the spiritual resurrection in Christ and not the second, general resurrection of the body; and as long as they don't try to make Christ come down and set up an earthly kingdom, when he is already reigning in the heavenly kingdom with those of the first resurrection.

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And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them

Who are these?

BABerean2 said:

This week my wife and I met with a missionary and his wife who are spreading the Gospel to the Arabs.

He speaks the Arab tongue, which was one of the 16 known languages spoken on the day of Pentecost.

The true scriptural test of speaking in tongues is that you are speaking one of the known languages.

If someone is babbling nonsense in an unknown language, which requires an "interpreter", then they are not displaying the gift given on the day of Pentecost.

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Would anyone needing open heart surgery choose a doctor who had studied surgery, but NEVER DONE EVEN ONE? No! They would choose a doctor with MANY successful open heart surgeries completed.

Here is someone trying to teach something he has never experienced, and knows almost nothing about.

What does the SCRIPTURES tell us?

1 Cor. 14
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

What do we know from this one verse?

1. Anyone speaking in BIBLE tongues is NOT speaking to men, but to God.
2. NO MAN understands Him.
3. He is speaking from his SPIRIT man, not his mind.
4. He is speaking MYSTERIES.

What? Mysteries to God? Of course not! Mysteries to man. Now, compare what GOD tells us about tongues with this man made theory:

The true scriptural test of speaking in tongues is that you are speaking one of the known languages.

Ha! Not according to the Holy Spirit who inspired Paul! What is being spoken is UNKNOWN tongues because it comes from the Holy Spirit who creates it on the spot. It could be an earthly language, but usually is not.

The real test of speaking in bible tongues is this: Did it come from the Holy Spirit?

The truth is, on the day of Pentecost they were speaking to God in UNKNOWN tongues, just as the scriptures say, but God allowed them to HEAR in their own language. (Go back and read it if you don't believe it: it says they HEARD in their own language. The disciples had NO IDEA what they were saying, for they were talking to God and "NO MAN understands: not even the speaker.

Douggg said:

Well, you wrong. Jesus is going to be reigning and ruling from right here on earth. Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the Armageddon feast on the carion, then it says the Lord, who is Jesus, is going to set his glory among the heathen. Verify by Psalms 2, God is going set his King, His Son, on the holy hill of Zion, which is Jerusalem,

17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood. 18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord God.
21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

Zehcariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

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Jesus reigning on earth is never mentioned in any other those passages.