Examining Zechariah 14 & the Olivet Earthquake

revelation2217 · Feb 6, 2015

I would like to begin a study of Zechariah 14 within the larger context of Zechariah.

I've really never been able to find how dispensationalists apply this to Jesus. Scofield is cautiously silent on most of it and only hints that it will be fulfilled by a second coming of Jesus.

Zechariah 14:5 implies that the cleavage of the Mount of Olives is due to an earthquake, and this is confirmed by ; Isaiah 29:6; Revelation 16:19. In both passages the context, as in Zechariah 14:1-3 associates the earthquake with the Gentile invasion under the Beast ; Daniel 7:8; Revelation 19:20. Surely, in a land seamed by seismic disturbances it should not be difficult to believe that another earthquake might cleave the little hill called the Mount of Olives. Not one of the associated events of Zech. 14 occurred at the first coming of Christ, closely associated though He then was with the Mount of Olives.

You'll notice that Scofield does not say outright 'Jesus will stand on the mount of Olives and there will be such and such an earthquake et al.....

However, before this thread gets invaded with every crazed theory that could possibly exist, I would simply like to establish that in the text itself, the Messiah is never mentioned. All of these things are described as accomplished by IHVH Himself. Now I invite all views and studies of this passage, but I only ask that one limit the analysis to the language of the text, and then expound from the language of the text. This will require real exegesis and not just spouting random opinion. I'm not really certain it this is possible on this forum, but, nonetheless, we at least begin with the text itself.

I take this from the English Revised Version of 1888 since it consistently translates the divine name as Jehovah, which is the Holy Name IHVH pronounced with the syllables of ADONAI. I only mention this because the passage under examination never says anything about the coming king messiah doing any of these things. I don't understand Zechariah 14, but I do know what it cannot possibly be talking about. So, I'm going to study it and see if some things become more clear.

ZECHARIAH CHAPTER 14

1 Behold, a day of Jehovah cometh, when thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall Jehovah go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the mount of Olives shall be cleft in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee by the valley of my mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azel; yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah; and Jehovah my God shall come, and all the holy ones with thee. 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that there shall not be light; the bright ones shall withdraw themselves: 7 but it shall be one day which is known unto Jehovah; not day, and not night; but it shall come to pass, that at evening time there shall be light.

8 And it shall come to pass in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the eastern sea, and half of them toward the western sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And Jehovah shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall Jehovah be one, and his name one. 10 All the land shall be made like the Arabah, from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; and she shall be lifted up, and shall dwell in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananel unto the king’s wine-presses. 11 And men shall dwell therein, and there shall be no more curse; but Jerusalem shall dwell safely. 12 And this shall be the plague wherewith Jehovah will smite all the peoples that have warred against Jerusalem: their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their sockets, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from Jehovah shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbor. 14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the nations round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. 15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in those camps, as that plague.

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso of all the families of the earth goeth not up unto Jerusalem to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, upon them there shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, neither shall it be upon them; there shall be the plague wherewith Jehovah will smite the nations that go not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations that go not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLY UNTO JEHOVAH; and the pots in Jehovah’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holy unto Jehovah of hosts; and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and boil therein: and in that day there shall be no more a Canaanite in the house of Jehovah of hosts.

revelation2217 · Feb 6, 2015

Before I even get into an analysis of the text, I am flattened by the purest manifestation of eisogesis in John Gill's Expositor. You will notice that in the relevant chapter, there is not one word mentioned about the Messiah. It is Jehovah alone who is mentioned. However, John Gill's Expositor immediately spews out a river of pre-conceived notions that are in fact foreign to the text of Zechariah 14.

This chapter treats of the coming of Christ with all his saints [It does? Where?], and his personal appearance among them [Really? Where?]; and of the signs of the times before that; [Where?] and of what shall befall the enemies of the church [The church? Where?], both open and secret; and of the happy state and condition of the church itself [Where?]. First there will be a time of great affliction to the people of God, Zec 14:1,2, when the Lord will appear and fight for them [Ok. I see that, but not about Jesus], and will appear to them, and with them, Zec 14:3-5 but before this time it will be an uncommon season, neither day nor night; at the close of which, light will break forth, Zec 14:6,7 the Gospel will be spread far and near [Where is that in the text?], attended with the Spirit and grace of God in great plenty [Really? Where?], Zec 14:8 which will bring on the spiritual reign of Christ over all the earth, [Are you kidding me? It never mentions the Messiah or any anointed one for that matter] Zec 14:9 particularly the land of Judea, and the city of Jerusalem, shall be inhabited by men with safety [Yes. But no Messiah is mentioned], Zec 14:10,11 and all those that oppose and fight against the Lord's people shall be destroyed, partly by an immediate plague from the Lord upon them, and partly by the hands of one another, and also by the saints of the most High; and the plague shall not only be upon their persons, but upon their cattle likewise, Zec 14:12-16 and as for those that profess the Christian name [The Christian name? Where?], and yet neglect or refuse to worship the Lord in a spiritual and evangelical manner [In the Feast of Tabernacles? I didn't know we kept the Feast of Tabernacles!], there shall be no rain upon them, Zec 14:17-19 and as for the church and people of God, there shall be universal holiness among them, and not a single Canaanite to be found in the midst of them [Ok.], Zec 14:20,21.

revelation2217 · Feb 6, 2015

Martin Luther makes an interesting observation that I had not considered before in his Preface to the Prophet Zechariah (1532).

This prophet lived after the Babylonian Captivity and with his comrade, Haggai, helped to rebuild the Temple and bring the scattered people together again, so that government and order might again be set up in the land. He is in truth one of the most comforting of the prophets, for he brings forward many lovely and comforting visions, and gives many kindly words, in order to encourage and strengthen the troubled and scattered people to set up the building and the government, in spite of the great and various resistance which they had endured. [. . .]

In the last chapter, when he has destroyed Jerusalem, he abolishes the Levitical priesthood, with its organization and vessels and festivals, and says, “All spiritual offices shall be common, for the service of God, and shall not belong to the tribe of Levi only”; that is, there shall be other priests, other festivals, other sacrifices, other worship, which other tribes can observe, nay, even the Egyptians and all Gentiles. That means that the old testament is to be abolished and taken away.

This is interesting and seems to fit the language, however, I still do not understand what is meant by the Feast of Tabernacles unless it is some sort of prophetic spiritualization of the Feast of Tabernacles in its esoteric, higher significance. It's an interesting note, but it still doesn't expound it to my mind to the point of being anywhere near satisfying and having that crystal clear ring of truth and understanding.

revelation2217 · Feb 6, 2015

The French commentary Chaque jour les Ecritures by Jean Koechlin is distinctively unhelpful here

Zacharie 14 v. 6-21
C'est la fin du drame. Quand s'ouvrira le dernier acte, la situation aura été renversée par l'apparition soudaine du Seigneur de gloire. Le décor même aura changé. Un cataclysme inouï bouleversera la configuration du pays. Les peuples surpris en train de faire la guerre à Jérusalem… et à son Roi divin, se verront subitement frappés d'une horrible plaie. Dorénavant les nations au lieu de monter pour assiéger Jérusalem, devront y faire des pélerinages annuels pour se prosterner devant le Roi, l'Éternel (v. 16). Ceux qui n'obéiront pas seront privés de pluies. Mêmes les clochettes des chevaux — ces chevaux qui tiennent tant de place dans la prophétie de Zacharie — porteront en gravure cette inscription : « Sainteté à l'Éternel ». Car toute la puissance de l'homme, symbolisée par le cheval, sera désormais sanctifiée pour Dieu. Que le Seigneur grave aussi sur nos cœurs ce signe de mise à part et de consécration pour Lui ! Et que rien n'y pénètre qui ne soit en harmonie avec cette devise : « Sainteté à l'Éternel ». Ainsi serons-nous déjà en accord avec « ce jour-là », où Il sera publiquement « glorifié dans ses saints et admiré dans tous ceux qui auront cru » (2 Thess. 1 v. 10).

Zechariah 14: 6. 6-21
It's the end of the drama [Is it?]. Will open when the last act, the situation has been reversed by the sudden appearance of the Lord of glory. The same setting has changed [But you didn't tell me anything about the first setting]. An unprecedented cataclysm will upset the country setting [No kidding?]. The people caught making war on Jerusalem ... and his divine King, will be suddenly struck with a horrible wound. Henceforth nations instead of going to besiege Jerusalem, will make annual pilgrimages there to worship the King, the Lord (v. 16) [You mean IHVH? Yes, that is what the text states]. Those who do not obey will be deprived of rain [Specifically, those who do not keet the Feast of Tabernacles. Is that what we should be doing?]. Even the bells of the horses [I don't have a horse and I don't have bells] - horses that take up so much space in the prophecy of Zechariah - bear engraving the inscription, "Holiness to the Lord." For all the power of man, symbolized by the horse, will now be sanctified to God [If horses are a symbol of the power of man, what are bells the symbol of?]. That the Lord as serious on our hearts that sign up separately and consecration to Him! [At the Feast of Tabernacles?] And that nothing that enters in harmony with the motto: "Holiness to the Lord." Thus we will be already in agreement with "that day", where it will be publicly "glorified in his saints and admired in all them that believe" (2 Thess. 1 v. 10). [That was really helpful. How did he say all that and not help my understanding of how, when, where, and why this prophecy is fulfilled? It's actually as nebulous as Matthew Henry, and I never thought anything could be as nebulous as Matthew Henry. However, I'm still not seeing the connection between the Feast of Tabernacles and 2 Thess. 1. I think he lost me somewhere in 'symbolized by the horse']

Danoh · Feb 6, 2015

The basis of the thought you are exploring in post #s 1-3 appear to be an earlier understanding [back then] of those passages.

And you will find people out there from both major schools espousing views no longer held by their respective school.

Others of each school further refining their particular school's understanding.

Thus, today's two major schools might not see those things in the same way those authors you posted had viewed them, or that some who still follow them do.

Personally your posts in this thread thus far, are an honorable way of exploring these issues, in contrast to how they are often treated on here.. by the books, pdfs, and YouTube based notions

revelation2217 · Feb 6, 2015

Danoh said:
The basis of the thought you are exploring in post #s 1-3 appear to be an earlier understanding [back then] of those passages.

And you will find people out there from both major schools espousing views no longer held by their respective school.

Others of each school further refining their particular school's understanding.

Thus, today's two major schools might not see those things in the same way those authors you posted had viewed them, or that some who still follow them do.

Personally your posts in this thread thus far, are an honorable way of exploring these issues, in contrast to how they are often treated on here.. by the books, pdfs, and YouTube based notions

Both major schools? I didn't know there were two. If these are the major schools, then I can honestly say neither one is helpful in any way.

Do you want me to post the painfully long, tedious, and completely useless babblings of Keil and Delitzsch? They don't say anything helpful either, they just take longer saying nothing helpful while throwing in some random Hebrew.

revelation2217 · Feb 6, 2015

I'll try to spare you nearly infinitesimal minutia and drudgery of Keil and Delitzsch and simply summarize their view as follows:

The remaining portion will not be cut off out of the city, i.e., be transported thence, as was the case at that time, when even the remnant of the nation was carried into exile (2Ki 25:22). It is obvious at once from this, that the words do not refer to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, as Theodoret, Jerome, and others have supposed.

Ok. So they disagree with Theodoret, Jerome, and 'others'. It would have been nice if they had referenced their views, but that would take all the fun out of endless hours of chasing rabbits in a library or trying to pinpoint a quote in a search engine. They don't think it's the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, and we summarized the entire swamp of their commentary without even gong to terminus ad quem or terminus ad quo. And by this, we are glad.

revelation2217 · Feb 6, 2015

Next we have Jamieson, Fausset and Brown. What I appreciate about these three stooges is that they are just blatant millennarians right out of the cattle shoot. What ever Zechariah 14 is talking about, it immediately get sifted out into 'Antichrist, Christ, New Temple, 1000 year reign, straight up bota-bing-bota-boom'. And somewhere along the line the Feast of Tabernacles gets thrown in. But it's mostly about the War of the Antichrist. They stay in Zechariah 14 just long enough to begin the first sentence. Then it's anyone's guess where they might go. It's a roller coaster adventure ride through just about every verse in the entire Bible, as I can estimate.

1. day of the Lord—in which He shall vindicate His justice by punishing the wicked and then saving His elect people (Joe 2:31; 3:14; Mal 4:1, 5).
thy spoil . . . divided in the midst of thee—by the foe; secure of victory, they shall not divide the spoil taken from thee in their camp outside, but "in the midst" of the city itself.

2. gather all nations, &c.—The prophecy seems literal (compare Joe 3:2). If Antichrist be the leader of the nations [Oh, you knew that was coming, didn't you.], it seems inconsistent with the statement that he will at this time be sitting in the temple as God at Jerusalem (2Th 2:4); thus Antichrist outside would be made to besiege Antichrist within the city [Ok. Seriously. What?]. But difficulties do not set aside revelations: the event will clear up seeming difficulties [Will it, now?]. Compare the complicated movements, Da 11:1-45.
half . . . the residue—In Zec 13:8, 9, it is "two-thirds" that perish, and "the third" escapes. There, however, it is "in all the land"; here it is "half of the city." Two-thirds of the "whole people" perish, one-third survives. One-half of the citizens are led captive, the residue are not cut off. Perhaps, too, we ought to translate, "a (not 'the') residue." [That's great. You haven't told me anything I didn't already read].

3. Then—In Jerusalem's extremity.
as . . . in . . . day of battle—as when Jehovah fought for Israel against the Egyptians at the Red Sea (Ex 14:14; 15:3). As He then made a way through the divided sea, so will He now divide in two "the Mount of Olives" (Zec 14:4). [Uh...right]

4. The object of the cleaving of the mount in two by a fissure or valley (a prolongation of the valley of Jehoshaphat, and extending from Jerusalem on the west towards Jordan, eastward) is to open a way of escape to the besieged (compare Joe 3:12, 14). Half the divided mount is thereby forced northward, half southward; the valley running between. The place of His departure at His ascension shall be the place of His return: and the "manner" of His return also shall be similar (Ac 1:11) [So Jesus is going to drop at an acceleration rate of a meteor to do some MASSIVE equathquake damage?]. He shall probably "come from the east" (Mt 24:27) [Ok. If you say so. But Psalms says 'Salvation cometh neither from east or west']. He so made His triumphal entry into the city from the Mount of Olives from the east (Mt 21:1-10) [He did in indeed. And he did mention something about 'rocks crying out']. This was the scene of His agony: so it shall be the scene of His glory. Compare Eze 11:23, with Eze 43:2, "from the way of the east."

5. ye shall flee to the valley—rather "through the valley," as in 2Sa 2:29. The valley made by the cleaving asunder of the Mount of Olives (Zec 14:4) is designed to be their way of escape, not their place of refuge [MAURER]. JEROME is on the side of English Version. If it be translated so, it will mean, Ye shall flee "to" the valley, not to hide there, but as the passage through which an escape may be effected. The same divinely sent earthquake which swallows up the foe [That's pretty awesome], opens out a way of escape to God's people. The earthquake in Uzziah's days is mentioned (Am 1:1) as a recognized epoch in Jewish history. Compare also Isa 6:1: perhaps the same year that Jehovah held His heavenly court and gave commission to Isaiah for the Jews, an earthquake in the physical world, as often happens (Mt 24:7), marked momentous movements in the unseen spiritual world [Whoa, so we have a multi-dimensional battle going on here].
of the mountains—rather, "of My mountains," namely, Zion and Moriah, peculiarly sacred to Jehovah [MOORE]. Or, the mountains formed by My cleaving Olivet into two [MAURER].
Azal—the name of a place near a gate east of the city. The Hebrew means "adjoining" [HENDERSON]. Others give the meaning, "departed," "ceased." The valley reaches up to the city gates, so as to enable the fleeing citizens to betake themselves immediately to it on leaving the city.
Lord my God . . . with thee—The mention of the "Lord my God" leads the prophet to pass suddenly to a direct address to Jehovah. It is as if "lifting up his head" (Lu 21:28), he suddenly sees in vision the Lord coming, and joyfully exclaims, "All the saints with Thee!" So Isa 25:9. [So Zechariah could basically read the Gospel of Luke in vision?]
saints—holy angels escorting the returning King (Mt 24:30, 31; Jude 14); and redeemed men (1Co 15:23; 1Th 3:13; 4:14). Compare the similar mention of the "saints" and "angels" at His coming on Sinai (De 32:2, 3; Ac 7:53; Ga 3:19; Heb 2:2). PHILLIPS thinks Azal is Ascalon on the Mediterranean. An earthquake beneath Messiah's tread will divide Syria, making from Jerusalem to Azal a valley which will admit the ocean waters from the west to the Dead Sea. The waters will rush down the valley of Arabah, the old bed of the Jordan, clear away the sand-drift of four thousand years, and cause the commerce of Petra and Tyre to center in the holy city. The Dead Sea rising above its shores will overflow by the valley of Edom, completing the straits of Azal into the Red Sea. Thus will be formed the great pool of Jerusalem (compare c.; Joe 3:18). Euphrates will be the north boundary, and the Red Sea the south. Twenty-five miles north and twenty-five miles south of Jerusalem will form one side of the fifty miles square of the Lord's Holy Oblation (Eze 48:1-35). There are seven spaces of fifty miles each from Jerusalem northward to the Euphrates, and five spaces of fifty miles each southward to the Red Sea. Thus there are thirteen equal distances on the breadth of the future promised land, one for the oblation and twelve for the tribes, according to Eze 48:1-35. That the Euphrates north, Mediterranean west, the Nile and Red Sea south, are to be the future boundaries of the holy land, which will include Syria and Arabia, is favored by Ge 15:8; Ex 23:31; De 11:24; Jos 1:4; 1Ki 4:21; 2Ch 9:26; Isa 27:12; all which was partially realized in Solomon's reign, shall be antitypically so hereafter. The theory, if true, will clear away many difficulties in the way of the literal interpretation of this chapter and Eze 48:1-35. [WOW! And you got all that from Zechariah 14?]

6. light . . . not . . . clear . . . dark—JEROME, Chaldee, Syriac, and Septuagint translate, "There shall not be light, but cold and ice"; that is, a day full of horror (Am 5:18). But the Hebrew for "clear" does not mean "cold," but "precious," "splendid" (compare Job 31:26). CALVIN translates, "The light shall not be clear, but dark" (literally, "condensation," that is, thick mist); like a dark day in which you can hardly distinguish between day and night. English Version accords with Zec 14:7: "There shall not be altogether light nor altogether darkness," but an intermediate condition in which sorrows shall be mingled with joys. [Uh, yeah.]

7. one day—a day altogether unique, different from all others [MAURER]. Compare "one," that is, unique (So 6:9; Jer 30:7). Not as HENDERSON explains, "One continuous day, without night" (Re 22:5; 21:25); the millennial period (Re 20:3-7).
known to . . . Lord—This truth restrains man's curiosity and teaches us to wait the Lord's own time (Mt 24:36).
not day, nor night—answering to "not . . . clear nor . . . dark" (Zec 14:6); not altogether daylight, yet not the darkness of night.
at evening . . . shall be light—Towards the close of this twilight-like time of calamity, "light" shall spring up (Ps 97:11; 112:4; Isa 30:26; 60:19, 20).

8. living waters— (Eze 47:1; Joe 3:18).
former sea—that is, the front, or east, which Orientalists face in taking the points of the compass; the Dead Sea.
hinder sea—the west or Mediterranean.
summer . . . winter—neither dried up by heat, nor frozen by cold; ever flowing.

9. king over all . . . earth— Isa 54:5 implies that this is to be the consequence of Israel being again recognized by God as His own people (Da 2:44; Re 11:15).
one Lord . . . name one—Not that He is not so already, but He shall then be recognized by all unanimously as "One." Now there are "gods many and lords many." Then Jehovah alone shall be worshipped. The manifestation of the unity of the Godhead shall be simultaneous with that of the unity of the Church. Believers are one in spirit already, even as God is one (Eph 4:3-6). But externally there are sad divisions. Not until these disappear, shall God reveal fully His unity to the world (Joh 17:21, 23). Then shall there be "a pure language, that all may call upon the name of the Lord with one consent" (Zep 3:9). The Son too shall at last give up His mediatorial kingdom to the Father, when the purposes for which it was established shall have been accomplished, "that God may be all in all" (1Co 15:24).

10. turned—or, "changed round about": literally, "to make a circuit." The whole hilly land round Jerusalem, which would prevent the free passage of the living waters, shall be changed so as to be "as a (or the) plain" (Isa 40:4).
from Geba to Rimmon—Geba (2Ki 23:8) in Benjamin, the north border of Judah. Rimmon, in Simeon (Jos 15:32), the south border of Judah; not the Rimmon northeast of Michmash. "The plain from Geba to Rimmon" (that is, from one boundary to the other) is the Arabah or plain of the Jordan, extending from the Sea of Tiberias to the Elanitic Gulf of the Red Sea.
it shall be lifted up—namely, Jerusalem shall be exalted, the hills all round being lowered (Mic 4:1).
inhabited in her place— (Zec 12:6).
from Benjamin's gate—leading to the territory of Benjamin. The same as Ephraim's gate, the north boundary of the city (2Ki 14:13).
the first gate—west of the city [GROTIUS]. "The place of," &c. implies that the gate itself was then not in existence. "The old gate" (Ne 3:6).
the corner gate—east of the city [GROTIUS]. Or the "corner" joining the north and west parts of the wall [VILLALPANDUS]. GROTIUS thinks "corners" refers to the towers there built (compare Zep 3:6, Margin).
tower of Hananeel—south of the city, near the sheep gate (Ne 3:1; 12:39; Jer 31:38) [GROTIUS].
king's wine-presses— (So 8:11). In the interior of the city, at Zion [GROTIUS].

11. no more utter destruction— (Jer 31:40). Literally, "no more curse" (Re 22:3; compare Mal 4:6), for there will be no more sin. [Except for the sin of all those who won't go to the Feast of Tabernacles?] Temporal blessings and spiritual prosperity shall go together in the millennium: long life (Isa 65:20-22), peace (Isa 2:4), honor (Isa 60:14-16), righteous government (Isa 54:14; 60:18). Judgment, as usual, begins at the house of God, but then falls fatally on Antichrist [Oh, I knew they would work that guy in here somewhere.], whereon the Church obtains perfect liberty. The last day will end everything evil (Ro 8:21) [AUBERLEN]. [The last day will end everything evil. Well, that clears everything up perfectly.]

12. Punishment on the foe, the last Antichristian confederacy (Isa 59:18; 66:24; Eze 38:1-39:29; Re 19:17-21) [The United Nations, perhaps?]. A living death: the corruption (Ga 6:8) of death combined in ghastly union with the conscious sensibility of life. Sin will be felt by the sinner in all its loathsomeness, inseparably clinging to him as a festering, putrid body. [Yeah, they're all going to melt, aren't they?]

13. tumult—consternation (Zec 12:4; 1Sa 14:15, 20).
lay hold . . . on . . . hand of . . . neighbour—instinctively grasping it, as if thereby to be safer, but in vain [MENOCHIUS]. Rather, in order to assail "his neighbor" [CALVIN], (Eze 38:21). Sin is the cause of all quarrels on earth. It will cause endless quarrels in hell (Jas 3:15, 16).

14. Judah . . . fight at Jerusalem—namely, against the foe: not against Jerusalem, as MAURER translates in variance with the context. As to the spoil gained from the foe, compare Eze 39:10, 17.

15. The plague shall affect the very beasts belonging to the foe. A typical foretaste of all this befell Antiochus Epiphanes and his host at Jerusalem (1 Maccabees 13:49; 2 Maccabees 9:5).

16. every one . . . left— (Isa 66:19, 23). God will conquer all the foes of the Church. Some He will destroy; others He will bring into willing subjection.
from year to year—literally, "from the sufficiency of a year in a year."
feast of tabernacles—The other two great yearly feasts, passover and pentecost, are not specified, because, their antitypes having come, the types are done away with. But the feast of tabernacles will be commemorative of the Jews' sojourn, not merely forty years in the wilderness, but for almost two thousand years of their dispersion. [Ahhhh! And that means?] So it was kept on their return from the Babylonian dispersion (Ne 8:14-17). It was the feast on which Jesus made His triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Mt 21:8); [Um....well, no. Actually, it was Passover. Um...Sukkot is in September, you'll remember. Small error. Could have happened to anyone. Probably a typo.] a pledge of His return to His capital to reign (compare Le 23:34, 39, 40, 42; Re 7:9; 21:3).

17. no rain—including every calamity which usually follows in the East from want of rain, namely, scarcity of provisions, famine, pestilence, &c. Rain is the symbol also of God's favor (Ho 6:3). That there shall be unconverted men under the millennium appears from the outbreak of Gog and Magog at the end of it (Re 20:7-9); but they, like Satan their master, shall be restrained during the thousand years. Note, too, from this verse that the Gentiles shall come up to Jerusalem, rather than the Jews go as missionaries to the Gentiles (Isa 2:2; Mic 5:7). However, Isa 66:19 may imply the converse. [Ok. Gog and Magog. I knew we had to get them in here too, somehow.]

Danoh · Feb 6, 2015

The two major schools idea is admittedly my conclusion as I tend to look at things in life from a whole or systems theory perspective.

Systems theory, for example, views the entire human being as one interconnected system of, to, and through which all is comprised.

As in the passage "of him, through him. and to him are all things."

Applied to theologies systems theory would view the various schools as an offshoot, aspect, or expression, of one or the other of the two major schools.

One major school being the Reformed and its various offshoots - all of which basically see a much more figurative theme in many passages then say the other major school and its various offshoots the Dispensational, might.

Systems theory allows one to learn from both just as say, one whole health practitioner is able to learn from say, a much more Western Medicine based practitioner, while the latter of these two remains closed to learning from the former.

Thus far in this thread, while I attempted a much more systems theory based approach to your attempts, you have moved closer to expressing a much more Western medicine like closed view, thus, your snide remarks.

That can only lead us nowhere. We won't be able to explore these issues, some point at which I will only end up returning your snide remarks, you will not see your having set this off, conclude I have some sort of a problem or what have you, and we will end up nowhere.

It doesn't have to be this way. The ball is in your court.

Danoh · Feb 6, 2015

Just now read your posts #s 6, 7, 8.

You can't just keep an open mind even if you disagree with them?

And no, I am not for nor against them. Just pointing this error on your part out.

revelation2217 · Feb 6, 2015

Danoh said:
Just now read your posts #s 6, 7, 8.

You can't just keep an open mind even if you disagree with them?

And no, I am not for nor against them. Just pointing this error on your part out.

Keeping an open mind is overrated. I'd prefer to keep a critical mind for the time being. A critical mind is a discerning mind.

The difference in an open mind and a discerning mind is that an open mind is open to both truth and falsehood while a discerning mind is open only to truth.

revelation2217 · Feb 6, 2015

Danoh said:
The two major schools idea is admittedly my conclusion as I tend to look at things in life from a whole or systems theory perspective.

Systems theory, for example, views the entire human being as one interconnected system of, to, and through which all is comprised.

As in the passage "of him, through him. and to him are all things."

Applied to theologies systems theory would view the various schools as an offshoot, aspect, or expression, of one or the other of the two major schools.

One major school being the Reformed and its various offshoots - all of which basically see a much more figurative theme in many passages then say the other major school and its various offshoots the Dispensational, might.

Systems theory allows one to learn from both just as say, one whole health practitioner is able to learn from say, a much more Western Medicine based practitioner, while the latter of these two remains closed to learning from the former.

Thus far in this thread, while I attempted a much more systems theory based approach to your attempts, you have moved closer to expressing a much more Western medicine like closed view, thus, your snide remarks.

That can only lead us nowhere. We won't be able to explore these issues, some point at which I will only end up returning your snide remarks, you will not see your having set this off, conclude I have some sort of a problem or what have you, and we will end up nowhere.

It doesn't have to be this way. The ball is in your court.

Ok. I think I understand.

You want me to keep the Tylenol, but embrace the possibility of Chinese herbal tea remedies.

Two schools of thought.

Dialectics.

Hegel or Marx.

Plato or Aristotle.

Confucius or Buddha.

Coke or Pepsi.

Right.

OH, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God’s great Judgment Seat;
But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
When two strong men stand face to face, tho’ they come from the ends of the earth! -- Kipling

Danoh · Feb 6, 2015

revelation2217 said:
Ok. I think I understand.

You want me to keep the Tylenol, but embrace the possibility of Chinese herbal tea remedies.

Two schools of thought.

Dialectics.

Hegel or Marx.

Plato or Aristotle.

Confucius or Buddha.

Coke or Pepsi.

Right.

OH, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
Till Earth and Sky stand presently at Gods great Judgment Seat;
But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
When two strong men stand face to face, tho they come from the ends of the earth! -- Kipling

Actually I like both Coke and Pepsi.

And all those names have their strong points.

I prefer Romans thru Philemon over all of them all seven days of the week, though, and without their "strong points."

Like I told a friend of mine the other day "You're that impressed that your pastor has a Master's in Atheist psychology?"

I'm familiar with it but its is all downhill and not even a hint of a candle to The Book.

You just don' know what I was talking about, and proved the choice I noted you'd be about.

Critical my foot. Closed minded in a closed, erroneous system of theology that makes God out a liar who never means what He says. Seems to me you choice is Marx.

There, now how does that feel - does it feel like progress or the outright stupidity your insistence on this form of nonsense is?

revelation2217 · Feb 6, 2015

Clarke is at least bold in his affirmative that Zechariah 14 is referring to the siege of Rome in Jerusalem.

There are only a few wee issues:

The commencement of this chapter relates to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans [But the city was also taken during the days of Antiochus Epiphanes. So, which one does the chapter prophecy of? One, both, or neither?], and to the calamities consequent on that event. From this great Jewish tragedy the prophet immediately passes to the utter extermination of the enemies of Christianity in the latter days. [Ok, but the context is physical Jerusalem and the Jews] God will display his power in behalf of his people [what people exactly?] in a manner so astonishing and miraculous, that even they themselves, and much more their enemies, shall be struck with terror, 4, 5. The national prosperity of the Jews shall then be permanent and unmixed, [Wait, I thought you just talking about the Church? Which is it?] 6, 7; and these people shall be made the instruments of converting many to the faith of the Messiah [At the Feast of Tabernacles in Jerusalem, right? When was that a part of the faith of the Messiah?], 8, 9. The great increase and prosperity of the Christian Church [I thought we were talking about the Jews?], the New Jerusalem [Is this New Jerusalem? Because I thought New Jerusalem was in New Heavens and New Earth? This New Jerusalem looks like it's a vertiable blood bath of carnage. That doesn't look very 'new' to me.], is then described in terms accommodated to Jewish ideas [Was it?]; and the most signal vengeance denounced against all her enemies, 10-19. From that happy period God's name will be honoured in every thing, and his worship every where most reverently observed, 20, 21. [At the Feast of Tabernacles, right?]

revelation2217 · Feb 6, 2015

Every once in a while Calvin does actually does say something useful. Even though he seems to go through the same convolution as others have in mixing and matching the Church with the Jews, he does mention that in Zechariah 14, even though there is a prophecy of the taking of the city, when God again turns to fight against those who fought against Israel, Jerusalem itself would never again be an utter ruin. This is interesting, because the only way that can be historically fulfilled is if this prophecy pertains to the time after the sack of Jerusalem by Rome in AD 70. It is as if the sieges of Jerusalem during this time have taken on global significance that pertains to all peoples, not just Jews. The vindication of Jerusalem is at this point on a global scale. This is beginning to sound strangely familiar to Ezekiel 38-39.

It seems to me at this point that Zechariah 14 cannot have yet had a complete fulfillment. However, that does not imply that I read it as a dispensationalist either. Calvin writes,

He adds, there shall be no more utter destruction. By the word חרם, cherem, I have no doubt, the Prophet means all utter ruin, such as had happened when the people were driven into exile. And for this reason and in the same sense, Isaiah says, that God had sworn that the destruction of the city would be like the deluge of Noah, (Isaiah 54:9) for he should never again bring such a grievous and dreadful vengeance on his people. But we learn from the whole passage, that this prophecy extends to the kingdom of Christ; for though Jerusalem was destroyed by Titus, it is yet true that God bad been the perpetual guardian of that city, inasmuch as the fullness of time had come when Christ was revealed. It is then the same as though the Prophet had said, that such should be the moderation of God’s anger, that the name of the city would wholly perish, nor the whole people be forced to migrate. This then is what he understands by חרם, cherem.

So the first thing I will note on Zechariah 14 is that I'm not taking a full preterist view of it.

revelation2217 · Feb 6, 2015

I've noted what makes a full preterist reading of Zech. 14 impossible. So, here is what makes a dispensationalist reading of Zech. 14 impossible. The dispensationalist believes that there are two separate dispensations for the Christian and the Jew. However, if you actually read what Zech. 14 says, it sound neither Jewish nor Christian! Honestly. Look at it. We have no word on the Jews keeping the feast of tabernacles but rather the remnant of the Gentiles who never even came out of Egypt to keep a Feast of Tabernacles.

The language of Zech 14 is astonishing because it sounds like nothing I can even begin to grasp at this point. It definitely is not preterist, and it definitely is not dispensationalist since it involves some dispensation of Gentiles in Jerusalem. What in the world is going on here? There was never any command for Gentiles to keep the Feast of Tabernacles in the Law of Moses. So whatever 'dispensation' this is, it cannot be the Mosaic or Jewish. Yet, again, there is nothing in the church that enjoins one to keep the Feast of Tabernacles either.

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations (Gentiles) that came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso of all the families of the earth goeth not up unto Jerusalem to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, upon them there shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, neither shall it be upon them; there shall be the plague wherewith Jehovah will smite the nations that go not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations that go not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLY UNTO JEHOVAH; and the pots in Jehovah’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holy unto Jehovah of hosts; and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and boil therein: and in that day there shall be no more a Canaanite in the house of Jehovah of hosts.

So, I openly confess it; I am utterly baffled by Zech. 14. And if anyone isn't baffled by Zech. 14, I don't think they've actually thought about it long enough or thought about what would have to be the case for Zech. 14 to be fulfilled.

Danoh · Feb 7, 2015

I'm sincerely asking your take on the following - As the Feast of Tabernacles is the last in Israel's cycle of feasts, under the Law, do you see any connection between Zechariah 14 and this from Isaiah 2?

1. The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
5. O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

revelation2217 · Feb 7, 2015

Danoh said:
I'm sincerely asking your take on the following - As the Feast of Tabernacles is the last in Israel's cycle of feasts, under the Law, do you see any connection between Zechariah 14 and this from Isaiah 2?

1. The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
5. O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

Um, yes. Ok. I see that sort of imagery in Zech. 14. It speaks of the land being raised and Jerusalem being exalted. So, yes. I see much similarity between the two.

revelation2217 · Feb 7, 2015

My Dialectical battle with My Preterist and My Dispensationalist Alter Egos

P. Isn't this all just the spiritual poetry of the Christian experience of coming out of spiritual bondage and Keeping the Feast of Tabernacles in the Spirit?

D. Yes. But it's speaking specifically of earthly Jerusalem in this context.

P. So, are we commanded to keep a literal pilgrimage to Jerusalem?

D. I don't know. That would seem to be implied, if not explicitly stated.

P. But we're gentiles. And nothing like this was ever involved in Christianity, and certainly not in Mosaic Judaism.

D. Yeah. I don't get it either, but that's what Zech 14 says.

P. But it also mentions the House of the LORD in Jerusalem.

D. I know. And you're next statement is probably going to be 'But there isn't a House of the LORD in Jerusalem'.

P. But THERE ISN'T A HOUSE OF THE LORD IN JERUSALEM!

D. Yeah, but Zech. 14 says there is.

P. Yeah, but Revelation 21:22 says there isn't.

D. Maybe they aren't speaking of the same 'Jerusalem'?

P. They must not be.

Rev20 · Feb 7, 2015

revelation2217 said:
I would like to begin a study of Zechariah 14 within the larger context of Zechariah.

I've really never been able to find how dispensationalists apply this to Jesus. Scofield is cautiously silent on most of it and only hints that it will be fulfilled by a second coming of Jesus.

Zechariah 14:5 implies that the cleavage of the Mount of Olives is due to an earthquake, and this is confirmed by ; Isaiah 29:6; Revelation 16:19. In both passages the context, as in Zechariah 14:1-3 associates the earthquake with the Gentile invasion under the Beast ; Daniel 7:8; Revelation 19:20. Surely, in a land seamed by seismic disturbances it should not be difficult to believe that another earthquake might cleave the little hill called the Mount of Olives. Not one of the associated events of Zech. 14 occurred at the first coming of Christ, closely associated though He then was with the Mount of Olives.

You'll notice that Scofield does not say outright 'Jesus will stand on the mount of Olives and there will be such and such an earthquake et al.....

However, before this thread gets invaded with every crazed theory that could possibly exist, I would simply like to establish that in the text itself, the Messiah is never mentioned. All of these things are described as accomplished by IHVH Himself. Now I invite all views and studies of this passage, but I only ask that one limit the analysis to the language of the text, and then expound from the language of the text. This will require real exegesis and not just spouting random opinion. I'm not really certain it this is possible on this forum, but, nonetheless, we at least begin with the text itself.

I take this from the English Revised Version of 1888 since it consistently translates the divine name as Jehovah, which is the Holy Name IHVH pronounced with the syllables of ADONAI. I only mention this because the passage under examination never says anything about the coming king messiah doing any of these things. I don't understand Zechariah 14, but I do know what it cannot possibly be talking about. So, I'm going to study it and see if some things become more clear.

ZECHARIAH CHAPTER 14

1 Behold, a day of Jehovah cometh, when thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall Jehovah go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the mount of Olives shall be cleft in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee by the valley of my mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azel; yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah; and Jehovah my God shall come, and all the holy ones with thee. 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that there shall not be light; the bright ones shall withdraw themselves: 7 but it shall be one day which is known unto Jehovah; not day, and not night; but it shall come to pass, that at evening time there shall be light.

8 And it shall come to pass in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the eastern sea, and half of them toward the western sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And Jehovah shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall Jehovah be one, and his name one. 10 All the land shall be made like the Arabah, from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; and she shall be lifted up, and shall dwell in her place, from Benjamins gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananel unto the kings wine-presses. 11 And men shall dwell therein, and there shall be no more curse; but Jerusalem shall dwell safely. 12 And this shall be the plague wherewith Jehovah will smite all the peoples that have warred against Jerusalem: their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their sockets, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from Jehovah shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbor. 14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the nations round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. 15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in those camps, as that plague.

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso of all the families of the earth goeth not up unto Jerusalem to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, upon them there shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, neither shall it be upon them; there shall be the plague wherewith Jehovah will smite the nations that go not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations that go not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLY UNTO JEHOVAH; and the pots in Jehovahs house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holy unto Jehovah of hosts; and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and boil therein: and in that day there shall be no more a Canaanite in the house of Jehovah of hosts.

The Greek Old Testament, the Septuagint, often quoted by Christ and the Apostles, uses the same Greek for the Lord in that passage as is used in the New Testament for Christ:

"Behold, the days of the Lord <G2962 κύριου> come, and thy spoils shall be divided in thee. And I will gather all the Gentiles to Jerusalem to war, and the city shall be taken, and the houses plundered, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, but the rest of my people shall not be utterly cut off from the city. And the Lord <G2962 κύριος> shall go forth, and fight with those Gentiles as when he fought in the day of war. And his feet shall stand in that day on the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave asunder, half of it toward the east and the west, a very great division; and half the mountain shall lean to the north, and half of it to the south. And the valley of my mountains shall be closed up, and the valley of the mountains shall be joined on to Jasod, and shall be blocked up as it was blocked up in the days of the earthquake, in the days of Ozias king of Juda; and the Lord <G2962 κύριος> my <G3588 ὁ> God <G2316 Θεός> shall come, and all the saints with him." -- Zec 14:1-5 LXX

The Greek word, G2962, is used over 600 times in the New Testament, and it refers to Christ on most every occasion. For example:

"Saying, The Lord <G2962 κύριος> is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon." -- Luke 24:34 KJV

"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord <G2962 κύριου>, and from the glory of his power;" -- 2Th 1:9

"For [it is] evident that our Lord <G2962 κύριος> sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood." -- Heb 7:14

"But the word of the Lord <G2962 κύριου> endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." -- 1Pet 1:25

That presents no problem for me since I believe that God the Father, the Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are one and the same.

I am not quite sure what your point is. Zechariah is highly parabolic prophecy; but I am reasonably convinced that chapter 14 is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem, the day of Pentecost, etc..

Examining Zechariah 14 & the Olivet Earthquake

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Partial Preterist

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