The Official Traditional Churches Breakdown Thread

Albion

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Since others have replied on this thread rather than via a PM, I thought I'd throw in 2 cents more. I like the "Continuing Anglican" section but had a few thoughts about it...

1. The suggestion is made that the churches named are "all generally in North America." This isn't exactly correct. MOST of the MEMBERSHIP is, but the church bodies named are represented in many countries, and some of them have significant memberships.

2. Only three church bodies are named, and while this is reasonable enough, it makes the overall total of followers look miniscule. It's estimated that the total number of Continuing Anglicans is about 30,000 to 50,000, NOT including the Church of England in South Africa which is older than the Continuing Anglican movement but is often counted (as on Wikipedia) as among them. It has a membership of 200,000.

3. Separate mention of ACNA and the Anglican Mission is made, and they are placed under the heading of "Convergence Movement." While these churches do indeed say that they subscribe to Convergence theology, the are no more charismatic than many TEC parishes these days. In every other respect, they should not be included with self-starting denominations like the Charismatic Episcopal Church that states that it is not an Anglican church.

ACNA and AM and several others -- which are usually termed the "Anglican Realignment" movement -- are affiliated with some of the provinces of the Anglican Communion and seek membership in the AC themselves. They claim a membership of about 100,000.

They should, in my opinion, be treated as Anglicans rather than some hybrid and should , therefore, be included in an expanded "Continuing Anglican" section called something like "Continuing Anglican and Anglican Realignment Movements" or "Independent Anglican." Something like that. We do have several members here who belong to ACNA parishes and post fairly often.
 
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Gnarwhal

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Thanks for your help Albion, I'll address some of your suggestions below.

1. The suggestion is made that the churches named are "all generally in North America." This isn't exactly correct. MOST of the MEMBERSHIP is, but the church bodies named are represented in many countries, and some of them have significant memberships.

This is why I stated "generally", because I'm trying to keep each profile concise, I didn't want to go through and label each branch of a given church/denomination so I did my best to keep it roughly to the "top three". Since the bulk of their membership exists in North America, that was sufficient to me to state what I did.

2. Only three church bodies are named, and while this is reasonable enough, it makes the overall total of followers look miniscule. It's estimated that the total number of Continuing Anglicans is about 30,000 to 50,000, NOT including the Church of England in South Africa which is older than the Continuing Anglican movement but is often counted (as on Wikipedia) as among them. It has a membership of 200,000.

Right. I can amend the profile to elaborate on the larger size of the Continuing movement as a whole, but I don't want to go into too much further detail, just for the sake of brevity. I trust readers won't be ill informed by this.

3. Separate mention of ACNA and the Anglican Mission is made, and they are placed under the heading of "Convergence Movement." While these churches do indeed say that they subscribe to Convergence theology, the are no more charismatic than many TEC parishes these days. In every other respect, they should not be included with self-starting denominations like the Charismatic Episcopal Church that states that it is not an Anglican church.

ACNA and AM and several others -- which are usually termed the "Anglican Realignment" movement -- are affiliated with some of the provinces of the Anglican Communion and seek membership in the AC themselves. They claim a membership of about 100,000.

They should, in my opinion, be treated as Anglicans rather than some hybrid and should , therefore, be included in an expanded "Continuing Anglican" section called something like "Continuing Anglican and Anglican Realignment Movements" or "Independent Anglican." Something like that. We do have several members here who belong to ACNA parishes and post fairly often.

The main reason I excluded the ACNA was that I was unsure whether it was still a part of the Continuing movement, I thought I had heard last year or the year before that they were actually in talks with TEC for reunification. Perhaps that was just hear-say and I was wrong. I'll add the ACNA to the list, since I agree that it's an important body to note and if anyone can confirm that it doesn't belong on that list I'll remove it.
 
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tz620q

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No, I don't think you need to say that the beliefs are identical. If you did, we certainly could not say that the modern Catholic Church was the same as the ancient one - there have been changes and developments, some quite significant ones.

I think what you have to see is some kind of continuous existence as an institution, as well as some kind of existence of a coherent tradition.

I would say, even if you think the Church of England has gone off the rails, it is clearly an organization of that sort. It may I think to be less clear to people outside of the UK, where it may seem like simply another denominational offering.

But it is pretty clear that historically, we are talking about one organization, the Christian Church in England.

I actually do not buy the argument that it was somehow a totally independent Church which had no need to acknowledge the western patriarch, and frankly I don't know how anyone can claim that. It was clearly the decision at Whitby that they acknowledged the bishop of Rome as their patriarch, he was the only patriarch of the west, ever, and England never had its own any more than France or Finland did.

So I would say there really was a schism rather than an assertion of an independence that already existed, though I think it was a justified schism. But, even were it an unjustified schism, or in serious error, it would really still have been the Church in England.

But it was still, quite clearly, the same organization, that Church as it existed in England. the same ecclesiastical structure for the most part, buildings, customs. It was really a national Church. There really wasn't even a strong concept in those days of the possibility of independent churches - they weren't really conceptualized in quite that way.

We are in complete agreement. I never meant to hint that the English Church was not ancient and based on that ancient tradition. It is more of an attempt on my part to determine the basis for calling something a traditional church. I just could never see the argument of an independent English church that never was part of the larger universal church. That was clearly the case in 660 and beyond for many centuries. I don't think that the thought then was that there was an invisible, spiritual church that loosely affiliated a group of roughly similar traditions. There was a visible structure and people had no problem identifying that structure. Small incidents of dissent do not negate that.
So I disagree with those who say there was no schism in the 1500's because the English Church had never been part of the Roman Catholic Church. I think I have derailed this thread and for that I am sorry; but I saw an oppurtunity to discuss with some of the most learned Anglicans that I have come across a topic that always had me scratching my head in the midst of an otherwise very reasoned and reasonable community of believers. Thank you all for your responses. May God bless you all.

Byron
 
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Albion

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Thanks for your help Albion, I'll address some of your suggestions below.
And I appreciate you getting back to me, D.B.

I'll respond to your comments below, but I hope not to seem to be carping or or nit-picking. I'm just aspiring, as one who is close to this subject, to help an already good article get some errors straightened out. I understand not wanting to expand it too much, but you do want to get the facts correct, I know.

This is why I stated "generally", because I'm trying to keep each profile concise, I didn't want to go through and label each branch of a given church/denomination so I did my best to keep it roughly to the "top three".
Quite understandable, but if so, the top three would be the Anglican Catholic Church (10,000), the Anglican Province of America (6000)...and the Anglican Province of Christ the King (8000).

Since the bulk of their membership exists in North America, that was sufficient to me to state what I did.
All right.

Right. I can amend the profile to elaborate on the larger size of the Continuing movement as a whole, but I don't want to go into too much further detail, just for the sake of brevity. I trust readers won't be ill informed by this.
The Continuing Anglican part is not so much a concern as what to do with the other Anglicans who, I think, ought to be accounted for.

The main reason I excluded the ACNA was that I was unsure whether it was still a part of the Continuing movement
ACNA has never been--not by any standard--a Continuing Anglican church body. Nor has it ever been considered to be part of the Continuing Anglican movement by itself or by the Continuers.

I thought I had heard last year or the year before that they were actually in talks with TEC for reunification.Perhaps that was just hear-say and I was wrong.
That must have been someone's speculation. They are not in talks.

I'll add the ACNA to the list, since I agree that it's an important body to note and if anyone can confirm that it doesn't belong on that list I'll remove it.

Well, please do not add it to the Continuing Anglican list as though it is a Continuing Anglican church body. It's not.

That's why I made several suggestions for a different title (if you are disinclined to make an additional category for "Anglican Realignment" churches--ACNA and the Anglican Mission). And then, by adding a mention of ACNA (with 100,000 members) as if it were a Continuing Anglican body but then not naming it when the "top three" are listed just muddies the waters further.

It shouldn't take too much to fix these things, and I hope you will do that. Thanks.
 
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FireDragon76

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I really think Baptists and Presbyterians/Church of Scotland/German Reformed are two separate traditions. Its true that John Calvin influenced both (as he did also in the Church of England/Anglican world), but Baptists and Presbyterians have very different theological traditions. John Calvin, for instance accepted, just as Anglicans do, that there were two sacraments of instituted by Christ and necessary for salvation- Baptists do not believe that the Church has any sacraments, only seeing certain actions as ordinances commanded by God.

And I could go on and on about the theological differences between Baptists and the Reformed. Needless to say, a "Reformed Baptist" is Baptist first and "Reformed" is a distinction from other kinds of Baptists, such as those not adhering to a strict predestinarianism.

Baptists also were influenced by the Anabaptist movement that had spread to Holland, and from Holland missionaries took it to England and it merged with the proto-Puritan movement which saw the established church as "not going far enough" and needing purification from "Romish" customs. Both the established church and dissenters had Puritans in their ranks who sough to distance themselves further from Roman practices, but those outside the established church felt that the established church could not accommodate their religious viewpoints. And furthermore, as the Puritan movement grew, it distanced itself further from the ecclesiology and sacramentology of Calvin- only the predestinarian theology was emphasized (very much unlike German and Swiss Reformed churches).
 
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Gnarwhal

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And I appreciate you getting back to me, D.B.

I'll respond to your comments below, but I hope not to seem to be carping or or nit-picking. I'm just aspiring, as one who is close to this subject, to help an already good article get some errors straightened out. I understand not wanting to expand it too much, but you do want to get the facts correct, I know.


Quite understandable, but if so, the top three would be the Anglican Catholic Church (10,000), the Anglican Province of America (6000)...and the Anglican Province of Christ the King (8000).


All right.


The Continuing Anglican part is not so much a concern as what to do with the other Anglicans who, I think, ought to be accounted for.


ACNA has never been--not by any standard--a Continuing Anglican church body. Nor has it ever been considered to be part of the Continuing Anglican movement by itself or by the Continuers.


That must have been someone's speculation. They are not in talks.



Well, please do not add it to the Continuing Anglican list as though it is a Continuing Anglican church body. It's not.

That's why I made several suggestions for a different title (if you are disinclined to make an additional category for "Anglican Realignment" churches--ACNA and the Anglican Mission). And then, by adding a mention of ACNA (with 100,000 members) as if it were a Continuing Anglican body but then not naming it when the "top three" are listed just muddies the waters further.

It shouldn't take too much to fix these things, and I hope you will do that. Thanks.

Oh, okay I understand you better now. I'll get to work with the changes.
 
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MKJ

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I wonder if this thread was intended to go into which church was justified in this or that action and which was not?

I really wasn't intending to say anything was or wasn't - just to make it clear that in either case, we are talking about a continually existing institution.
 
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MKJ

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I really think Baptists and Presbyterians/Church of Scotland/German Reformed are two separate traditions. Its true that John Calvin influenced both (as he did also in the Church of England/Anglican world), but Baptists and Presbyterians have very different theological traditions. John Calvin, for instance accepted, just as Anglicans do, that there were two sacraments of instituted by Christ and necessary for salvation- Baptists do not believe that the Church has any sacraments, only seeing certain actions as ordinances commanded by God.

And I could go on and on about the theological differences between Baptists and the Reformed. Needless to say, a "Reformed Baptist" is Baptist first and "Reformed" is a distinction from other kinds of Baptists, such as those not adhering to a strict predestinarianism.

Baptists also were influenced by the Anabaptist movement that had spread to Holland, and from Holland missionaries took it to England and it merged with the proto-Puritan movement which saw the established church as "not going far enough" and needing purification from "Romish" customs. Both the established church and dissenters had Puritans in their ranks who sough to distance themselves further from Roman practices, but those outside the established church felt that the established church could not accommodate their religious viewpoints. And furthermore, as the Puritan movement grew, it distanced itself further from the ecclesiology and sacramentology of Calvin- only the predestinarian theology was emphasized (very much unlike German and Swiss Reformed churches).


Yes, I think that it would also be important to draw a distinction here.
 
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MKJ

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We are in complete agreement. I never meant to hint that the English Church was not ancient and based on that ancient tradition. It is more of an attempt on my part to determine the basis for calling something a traditional church. I just could never see the argument of an independent English church that never was part of the larger universal church. That was clearly the case in 660 and beyond for many centuries. I don't think that the thought then was that there was an invisible, spiritual church that losely affiliated a group of roughly similar traditions. There was a visible structure and people had no problem identifying that structure. Small incidents of dissent do not negate that.
So I disagree with those who say there was no schism in the 1500's because the English Church had never been part of the Roman Catholic Church. I think I have derailed this thread and for that I am sorry; but I saw an oppurtunity to discuss with some of the most learned Anglicans that I have come across a topic that always had me scratching my head in the midst of an otherwise very reasoned and reasonable community of believers. Thank you all for your responses. May God bless you all.

Byron


I think that maybe the feeling you are talking about comes from the fact that in many ways, even though there was an institutional structure, it was actually rather loose and not what you would call authoritarian. The Church in places like England was effectively self-governing in many ways, it had its own traditions and so on.

The world was a bigger place, and there wasn't the kind of administrative structure that would have been required to be more tightly controlled, and I suppose people may well have not seen that to be necessary.

There is a real feeling among many Anglicans that when Rome stamped out many of the native Christian customs and practices and insisted on the Roman ones instead, something rather precious and beautiful was lost, and that overweening sense of the western Church as "Roman" eventually grew into something of a monster, and that is what led to the schism.

I think perhaps that comes close to a sense of restoring an earlier, more correct, kind of independence.
 
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WisdomTree

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Should include "Chalcedonian" for all the groups except for Oriental Orthodoxy. Also, I believe these fellows, the Assyrian Church deserve to be on the list also since they are also very much traditional and ridiculously old. They used to be referred to as Nestorians and to an extent still are, but they actually aren't or more accurately never were (source).

I can write up something for description if need to be.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Should include "Chalcedonian" for all the groups except for Oriental Orthodoxy. Also, I believe these fellows, the Assyrian Church deserve to be on the list also since they are also very much traditional and ridiculously old. They used to be referred to as Nestorians and to an extent still are, but they actually aren't or more accurately never were (source).

I can write up something for description if need to be.

Good idea.
 
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Gnarwhal

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Should include "Chalcedonian" for all the groups except for Oriental Orthodoxy. Also, I believe these fellows, the Assyrian Church deserve to be on the list also since they are also very much traditional and ridiculously old. They used to be referred to as Nestorians and to an extent still are, but they actually aren't or more accurately never were (source).

I can write up something for description if need to be.

I'll make the changes. I'll create a separate profile just for the Assyrian Church just because from what I've seen it looks like it's not in communion with the EO, OO or RCC. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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WisdomTree

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I'll make the changes. I'll create a separate profile just for the Assyrian Church just because from what I've seen it looks like it's not in communion with the EO, OO or RCC. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That's correct. While the Oriental Orthodox Church had a falling out with the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church due to the disagreement of the findings of the Fourth Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon (as well as the Robber Synod Second Council of Ephesus), the Church of the East had a falling out with all of the above due to the disagreement (ie not invited) of the findings of the Third Ecumenical Council of Ephesus.

Now that I think about it, I wonder if the Ancient Church should be included since they are like the Continuing Anglican Movement (CAM) in that they schismed from the Assyrian Church as the CAM schismed from the Anglican Communion (depending on the perspective of course). Speaking of schisms, don't forget these guys, Old Catholic Church (Union of Utrecht)
.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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This thread is intended to offer a summary of basic information pertaining to the various Traditional churches that are represented here in Traditional Theology. Largely because we may be lacking in our own understanding, and also because we want lurkers and new members to be properly informed. This list is far from complete, as I know that I don’t have a full understanding of each and every church that is represented here. I hope we can all participate in rounding out this list and making sure the information is accurate. I’m not a member of any of these traditions (yet) so I’m certainly not an authority by any measure, and I hope that each person can offer their expertise on their respective tradition. I’ll essentially start with a basic framework and we can all build from there.

Please message me or a moderator if information is inaccurate, inappropriate or somehow incongruent with Traditional Theology’s standards. Thanks!

In some loose alphabetical order:

1. Anglican Communion

Affiliations most commonly represented on CF: Church of England, The Episcopal Church of the United States, Anglican Church of Canada.
Polity: Episcopal.
Primate: Justin Welby (CoE), Katherine Schori (TEC), Fred Hiltz (ACoC)
Approximate national/global membership: 80 million (global).
Acknowledged creeds: Apostles’ Creed, Chalcedonian Creed and Nicene Creed.
General date of establishment: First century CE, 1538 (separation from Rome).

Synopsis: Generally thought of as having been established circa 1538 when Henry VIII severed England’s ties with Rome over doctrinal and ecclesiastical disputes. Furthermore, high-church and low-church don't automatically mean "Anglo-Catholic" or "Evangelical" respectively. In Anglicanism, there is a sort of double axis: one of churchship and one of theological emphasis. In terms of churchship, there is high church, broad church, and low church. These have to do with liturgical style. The higher the church, the more ceremonial and elaborate. The lower the church, the more "just by the strict rubrics" of the Book of Common Prayer. In terms of theological emphasis, there is Anglo-Catholicism, Middle, and Open Evangelicalism. Anglo-Catholics emphasize the Catholicity of the Church and Open-Evangelicals emphasize the protestant nature of the Church. However, either of these theological emphases reject the vital importance of the other "half". It is also important to note that Open Evangelicals are not the same as Protestant Evangelicals, adhering to the ancient tradition of a three-fold ministry, Real Presence of Christ, baptismal regeneration, and sacramental theology being of great importance, including the acceptance of the normative requirement of Holy Baptism and Holy Communion for salvation. In addition, there are two theologies which are outside the bounds: Anglo-Papism (or Anglo-Papalism, as it is sometimes called or spelled) and Crypto-Calvinism (or Crypto-Presbyterianism), which are extreme versions that reject the protestant nature or Catholicity of the Church respectfully and don't have any valid claim of being Anglican, being essentially Roman Catholic or Reformed/Presbyterian in substance and Anglican in name only ("AINO").

Primary contributions credited to: PaladinValer

2. Assyrian Church of the East
Affiliations commonly represented on CF: N/A
Polity: Episcopal
Primate: Catholicos-Patriarch of the Assyrian Church of the East. Incumbent: Mar Dinkha IV Khanania
Approximate national/global membership: 400-500,000
Acknowledged creeds: Nicene Creed
General date of establishment: First century AD

Synopsis: One of the ancient churches, the Assyrian Church of the East is sometimes mistakenly considered part of the Oriental Orthodox Church, however it is not in communion with it, nor is it in communion with the Eastern Orthodox Church or the Roman Catholic Church. The Assyrian Church, also sometimes called the Nestorian Church based on it's acceptance of Nestorianism is the root cause of their decline to accept the Chalcedonian Creed. Consisting of nearly a half million members worldwide, the church originally began in the regions of Assyria and northwestern Persia (made up of modern day Iraq, southeast Turkey, northeast Syria, and northwest Iran).

3. Catholic Church
Affiliations most commonly represented on CF: Latin Rite, Eastern Rites (generally referred to simply as Catholic or Roman Catholic)
Polity: Episcopal
Primate: Bishop of Rome (the Pope). Incumbent: Francis (Jorge Mario Bergoglio)
Approximate national/global membership: 1.2 billion (global)
Acknowledged creeds: Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian, Chalcedonian
General date of establishment: First century AD

Synopsis: The Catholic Church can trace it’s origins to Christ and the Apostles in the first century. In 431 AD following the Council of Ephesus the Catholic Church ceased communion with oriental miaphysite churches. In 451 AD following the council of Chalcedon the Catholic Church ceased communion with the Assyrian church. In 1054 AD following many cultural, religious, and political incidents the Catholic Church ceased communion with the Orthodox Church. The largest single body of Christianity in the world, Catholicism has a large following on every continent with the exception of Antarctica.

Primary contributions credited to: MoreCoffee

4. Continuing Anglicanism
Affiliations most commonly represented on CF: Anglican Catholic Church, Anglican Church in America, Anglican Province of America, Anglican Province of Christ the King.
Polity: Episcopal
Primate: May vary depending on branch.
Approximate national/global membership: 10,000 (ACC), 8,000 (APCK), 6,000 (APA) - all generally in North America
Acknowledged Creeds: Apostle’s Creed, Nicene Creed, Chalcedonian Creed
General date of establishment: 1977 (ACC & APCK), 1991 (ACA), 1995 (APA)

Synopsis: Largely due to social and ecclesiastical disagreements, the Continuing Anglican movement dates back to approximately 1977 where at the Congress of St. Louis the members rejected the ordination of women and the changes made to the latest version of the Book of Common Prayer. Many continuing bodies prefer the 1928 version (or sometimes older) over the newer version that the Anglican Communion utilizes. Each branch generally operates in the same way as the Anglican Communion both with polity and primacy. Like the Anglican Communion itself, some expressions of Continuing Anglicanism are more evangelical while others are more catholic, and many fall in the middle.

It should be noted that the population numbers given do not accurately reflect the breadth of the Continuing Anglican movement, as these figures are both estimations and include primarily members in North America. However, the Continuing movement exists in significant numbers worldwide but as of this latest edit (6 February 2015) concrete numbers haven't been acquired.

Primary contributions credited to: Albion

5. Eastern Orthodoxy
Affiliations most commonly represented on CF: Largely all autocephalous churches (primarily Greek, Russian, OCA and Antiochian).
Polity: Episcopal
Primate: Each autocephalous church has it’s own patriarch, recognized as equal with his counterparts from the other churches; the Ecumenical Patriarch is considered a “first among equals”.
Approximate national/global membership: approximately 225-300 million (global)
Acknowledged creeds: Nicene, Chalcedonian
General date of establishment: First century CE

Synopsis: The Eastern Orthodox Church is one of the oldest expressions of Christianity tracing it’s origins back to Christ and the Apostles. With a rich tradition that has largely remained unchanged in 2,000 years Orthodoxy generally practices the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, less frequently the Liturgy of St. Basil and on rare occasions, the Liturgy of St. James. The church was one until 1054CE when the East and West separated over doctrinal and ecclesiastical differences.

6. Lutheranism
Affiliations most commonly represented on CF: Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, Lutheran Church in Canada, Lutheran Church-Canada
Polity: Generally either Congregational or Presbyterian
Primate: None
Approximate national/global membership: 72.3 million (global)
Acknowledged creeds: Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian, Chalcedonian
General date of establishment: Early 16th century CE

Synopsis: Stemming from the controversy over Martin Luther’s Ninety-Five Theses, and credited as the foundation of the Protestant Reformation, Lutheranism came to be circa 1517-1530 when a segment severed ties with Rome over doctrinal and ecclesiastical disputes. While apostolic succession is not generally emphasized, Lutheranism maintains a catholicity in theology and praxis consistent with the ancient traditions and fathers.

7. Oriental Orthodoxy
Affiliations most commonly represented on CF: Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch, Armenian Apostolic Church, Eritrean Orthodox Church.
Polity: Episcopal
Primate: One Patriarch per church; Coptic Pope of Alexandria "first among equals" (Incumbent: Theodore II).
Approximate national/global membership: 86 million (global)
Affirmed Creeds: Apostle's Creed, Nicene Creed
General date of establishment: Fifth Century CE

Synopsis: Stemming from theological disputes at the Council of Chalcedon, the Oriental Orthodox Church resembles Eastern Orthodoxy in many ways in practice and doctrine.

8. Reformed Tradition
Affiliations most commonly represented on CF: Presbyterian Church (PCUSA and PCA), Reformed, UCC, Reformed Baptist
Polity: connectional, with councils of elders at congregational, regional and national levels, except UCC and Reformed Baptist which are congregational
[calling it Presbyterian is sort of biased]
Primate: None
Approximate national/global membership: Presbyterian: ca. 367,000 (PCA), 1.7 million (PCUSA); Reformed: ca. 148,000 (RCA), 145,000 (CRCNA); Congregational, merged church with Reformed as one group: 1.1 million (UCC) [Reformed Baptist don’t seem to be a specific denomination]
Acknowledged creeds: Apostles’ Creed, Chalcedonian Creed, Nicene Creed, Athanasian Creed (RCA), Apostles’ Creed and Nicene Creed (PCA), Nicene Creed (PCUSA)
Presbyterian: Westminster, PCUSA adds Confession of 1967 and Brief Statement of the Reformed Faith and other 16th Cent confessions; Continental Reformed: Heidelberg Catechism, Belgic Confession, Canons of Dordt; RCA adds Belhar; Reformed Baptist: Savoy Declaration, 1689 Confession, plus general Reformed and Presbyterian confessions
General date of establishment: Differed - 16th Century (Reformed tradition), 1983 (PCUSA), 1973 (PCA), 1628/1754 (RCA)

Synopsis: Originating from the theological thought of John Calvin, and to a lesser extent Huldrych Zwingli, the Reformed tradition largely took hold in northern Europe, Scotland, and England, where Reformed Churches and Presbyterianism flourished. While often having central government in the form of councils, Reformed traditions generally do not have any sort of primate or head figure. Congregational churches tend to have an emphasis on the local church and leaving them largely autonomous while Presbyterian and Continental Reformed churches are based on accountability of the local church to regional and national councils.

Primary contributions credited to: hedrick


To be picky.... Lutherans are generally episcopal in government (to varying degrees) although about one-third of them in the USA are largely congregational (LCMS and WELS). I know of none, anywhere, that are Presbyterian in governance.

Oh, Mark and I are both Lutherans...

But what is STUNNING to me is if ALL THESE GROUPS consider each other "Traditional" here at CF. Do they? IF so, then that's quite a huge admission - that all our differences are all WITHIN historic, traditional, Christianity! I'm exempting myself from an expression of my view on that.... just surprised if THAT is the overwhelming view of the Catholics, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran and Reformed members of CF.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




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CaliforniaJosiah

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This thread is intended to offer a summary of basic information pertaining to the various Traditional churches that are represented here in Traditional Theology. Largely because we may be lacking in our own understanding, and also because we want lurkers and new members to be properly informed. This list is far from complete, as I know that I don’t have a full understanding of each and every church that is represented here. I hope we can all participate in rounding out this list and making sure the information is accurate. I’m not a member of any of these traditions (yet) so I’m certainly not an authority by any measure, and I hope that each person can offer their expertise on their respective tradition. I’ll essentially start with a basic framework and we can all build from there.

Please message me or a moderator if information is inaccurate, inappropriate or somehow incongruent with Traditional Theology’s standards. Thanks!

In some loose alphabetical order:

1. Anglican Communion

Affiliations most commonly represented on CF: Church of England, The Episcopal Church of the United States, Anglican Church of Canada.
Polity: Episcopal.
Primate: Justin Welby (CoE), Katherine Schori (TEC), Fred Hiltz (ACoC)
Approximate national/global membership: 80 million (global).
Acknowledged creeds: Apostles’ Creed, Chalcedonian Creed and Nicene Creed.
General date of establishment: First century CE, 1538 (separation from Rome).

Synopsis: Generally thought of as having been established circa 1538 when Henry VIII severed England’s ties with Rome over doctrinal and ecclesiastical disputes. Furthermore, high-church and low-church don't automatically mean "Anglo-Catholic" or "Evangelical" respectively. In Anglicanism, there is a sort of double axis: one of churchship and one of theological emphasis. In terms of churchship, there is high church, broad church, and low church. These have to do with liturgical style. The higher the church, the more ceremonial and elaborate. The lower the church, the more "just by the strict rubrics" of the Book of Common Prayer. In terms of theological emphasis, there is Anglo-Catholicism, Middle, and Open Evangelicalism. Anglo-Catholics emphasize the Catholicity of the Church and Open-Evangelicals emphasize the protestant nature of the Church. However, either of these theological emphases reject the vital importance of the other "half". It is also important to note that Open Evangelicals are not the same as Protestant Evangelicals, adhering to the ancient tradition of a three-fold ministry, Real Presence of Christ, baptismal regeneration, and sacramental theology being of great importance, including the acceptance of the normative requirement of Holy Baptism and Holy Communion for salvation. In addition, there are two theologies which are outside the bounds: Anglo-Papism (or Anglo-Papalism, as it is sometimes called or spelled) and Crypto-Calvinism (or Crypto-Presbyterianism), which are extreme versions that reject the protestant nature or Catholicity of the Church respectfully and don't have any valid claim of being Anglican, being essentially Roman Catholic or Reformed/Presbyterian in substance and Anglican in name only ("AINO").

Primary contributions credited to: PaladinValer

2. Assyrian Church of the East
Affiliations commonly represented on CF: N/A
Polity: Episcopal
Primate: Catholicos-Patriarch of the Assyrian Church of the East. Incumbent: Mar Dinkha IV Khanania
Approximate national/global membership: 400-500,000
Acknowledged creeds: Nicene Creed
General date of establishment: First century AD

Synopsis: One of the ancient churches, the Assyrian Church of the East is sometimes mistakenly considered part of the Oriental Orthodox Church, however it is not in communion with it, nor is it in communion with the Eastern Orthodox Church or the Roman Catholic Church. The Assyrian Church, also sometimes called the Nestorian Church based on it's acceptance of Nestorianism is the root cause of their decline to accept the Chalcedonian Creed. Consisting of nearly a half million members worldwide, the church originally began in the regions of Assyria and northwestern Persia (made up of modern day Iraq, southeast Turkey, northeast Syria, and northwest Iran).

3. Catholic Church
Affiliations most commonly represented on CF: Latin Rite, Eastern Rites (generally referred to simply as Catholic or Roman Catholic)
Polity: Episcopal
Primate: Bishop of Rome (the Pope). Incumbent: Francis (Jorge Mario Bergoglio)
Approximate national/global membership: 1.2 billion (global)
Acknowledged creeds: Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian, Chalcedonian
General date of establishment: First century AD

Synopsis: The Catholic Church can trace it’s origins to Christ and the Apostles in the first century. In 431 AD following the Council of Ephesus the Catholic Church ceased communion with oriental miaphysite churches. In 451 AD following the council of Chalcedon the Catholic Church ceased communion with the Assyrian church. In 1054 AD following many cultural, religious, and political incidents the Catholic Church ceased communion with the Orthodox Church. The largest single body of Christianity in the world, Catholicism has a large following on every continent with the exception of Antarctica.

Primary contributions credited to: MoreCoffee

4. Continuing Anglicanism
Affiliations most commonly represented on CF: Anglican Catholic Church, Anglican Church in America, Anglican Province of America, Anglican Province of Christ the King.
Polity: Episcopal
Primate: May vary depending on branch.
Approximate national/global membership: 10,000 (ACC), 8,000 (APCK), 6,000 (APA) - all generally in North America
Acknowledged Creeds: Apostle’s Creed, Nicene Creed, Chalcedonian Creed
General date of establishment: 1977 (ACC & APCK), 1991 (ACA), 1995 (APA)

Synopsis: Largely due to social and ecclesiastical disagreements, the Continuing Anglican movement dates back to approximately 1977 where at the Congress of St. Louis the members rejected the ordination of women and the changes made to the latest version of the Book of Common Prayer. Many continuing bodies prefer the 1928 version (or sometimes older) over the newer version that the Anglican Communion utilizes. Each branch generally operates in the same way as the Anglican Communion both with polity and primacy. Like the Anglican Communion itself, some expressions of Continuing Anglicanism are more evangelical while others are more catholic, and many fall in the middle.

It should be noted that the population numbers given do not accurately reflect the breadth of the Continuing Anglican movement, as these figures are both estimations and include primarily members in North America. However, the Continuing movement exists in significant numbers worldwide but as of this latest edit (6 February 2015) concrete numbers haven't been acquired.

Primary contributions credited to: Albion

5. Eastern Orthodoxy
Affiliations most commonly represented on CF: Largely all autocephalous churches (primarily Greek, Russian, OCA and Antiochian).
Polity: Episcopal
Primate: Each autocephalous church has it’s own patriarch, recognized as equal with his counterparts from the other churches; the Ecumenical Patriarch is considered a “first among equals”.
Approximate national/global membership: approximately 225-300 million (global)
Acknowledged creeds: Nicene, Chalcedonian
General date of establishment: First century CE

Synopsis: The Eastern Orthodox Church is one of the oldest expressions of Christianity tracing it’s origins back to Christ and the Apostles. With a rich tradition that has largely remained unchanged in 2,000 years Orthodoxy generally practices the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, less frequently the Liturgy of St. Basil and on rare occasions, the Liturgy of St. James. The church was one until 1054CE when the East and West separated over doctrinal and ecclesiastical differences.

6. Lutheranism
Affiliations most commonly represented on CF: Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, Lutheran Church in Canada, Lutheran Church-Canada
Polity: Generally either Congregational or Presbyterian
Primate: None
Approximate national/global membership: 72.3 million (global)
Acknowledged creeds: Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian, Chalcedonian
General date of establishment: Early 16th century CE

Synopsis: Stemming from the controversy over Martin Luther’s Ninety-Five Theses, and credited as the foundation of the Protestant Reformation, Lutheranism came to be circa 1517-1530 when a segment severed ties with Rome over doctrinal and ecclesiastical disputes. While apostolic succession is not generally emphasized, Lutheranism maintains a catholicity in theology and praxis consistent with the ancient traditions and fathers.

7. Oriental Orthodoxy
Affiliations most commonly represented on CF: Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch, Armenian Apostolic Church, Eritrean Orthodox Church.
Polity: Episcopal
Primate: One Patriarch per church; Coptic Pope of Alexandria "first among equals" (Incumbent: Theodore II).
Approximate national/global membership: 86 million (global)
Affirmed Creeds: Apostle's Creed, Nicene Creed
General date of establishment: Fifth Century CE

Synopsis: Stemming from theological disputes at the Council of Chalcedon, the Oriental Orthodox Church resembles Eastern Orthodoxy in many ways in practice and doctrine.

8. Reformed Tradition
Affiliations most commonly represented on CF: Presbyterian Church (PCUSA and PCA), Reformed, UCC, Reformed Baptist
Polity: connectional, with councils of elders at congregational, regional and national levels, except UCC and Reformed Baptist which are congregational
[calling it Presbyterian is sort of biased]
Primate: None
Approximate national/global membership: Presbyterian: ca. 367,000 (PCA), 1.7 million (PCUSA); Reformed: ca. 148,000 (RCA), 145,000 (CRCNA); Congregational, merged church with Reformed as one group: 1.1 million (UCC) [Reformed Baptist don’t seem to be a specific denomination]
Acknowledged creeds: Apostles’ Creed, Chalcedonian Creed, Nicene Creed, Athanasian Creed (RCA), Apostles’ Creed and Nicene Creed (PCA), Nicene Creed (PCUSA)
Presbyterian: Westminster, PCUSA adds Confession of 1967 and Brief Statement of the Reformed Faith and other 16th Cent confessions; Continental Reformed: Heidelberg Catechism, Belgic Confession, Canons of Dordt; RCA adds Belhar; Reformed Baptist: Savoy Declaration, 1689 Confession, plus general Reformed and Presbyterian confessions
General date of establishment: Differed - 16th Century (Reformed tradition), 1983 (PCUSA), 1973 (PCA), 1628/1754 (RCA)

Synopsis: Originating from the theological thought of John Calvin, and to a lesser extent Huldrych Zwingli, the Reformed tradition largely took hold in northern Europe, Scotland, and England, where Reformed Churches and Presbyterianism flourished. While often having central government in the form of councils, Reformed traditions generally do not have any sort of primate or head figure. Congregational churches tend to have an emphasis on the local church and leaving them largely autonomous while Presbyterian and Continental Reformed churches are based on accountability of the local church to regional and national councils.

Primary contributions credited to: hedrick


To be picky.... Lutherans are generally episcopal in government (to varying degrees) although about one-third of them in the USA are largely congregational (LCMS and WELS). I know of none, anywhere, that are Presbyterian in governance.

Oh, Mark and I are both Lutherans...

But what is STUNNING to me is if ALL THESE GROUPS consider each other "Traditional" here at CF. Do they? IF so, then that's quite a huge statement - that all our distinctive differences are all WITHIN historic, traditional, Christianity! I'm exempting myself from an expression of my view on that.... just surprised if THAT is indeed the universal view of the Catholics, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran and Reformed members of CF.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




;.
 
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Gnarwhal

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It's not really about whether our churches affirm the others as traditional, it's more about who's represented here in TT. In the Round Table, we came together under the mutual understanding that Tradition is holy and sacred and we affirm it. How we practice tradition varies, but it does share a common core. The thread is meant to distinguish some basic characteristics between all of the churches represented here, it's not exhaustive nor will it ever be. Mainly it's to act as a tool for visitors or beginners who are unfamiliar with how the churches basically operate.
 
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It's not really about whether our churches affirm the others as traditional, it's more about who's represented here in TT. In the Round Table, we came together under the mutual understanding that Tradition is holy and sacred and we affirm it. How we practice tradition varies, but it does share a common core.


Would you post that common core (beyond the Nicene Creed that is embraced throughout CF).... Just curious....


Thanks!


Pax


- Josiah






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CaliforniaJosiah

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To what end? This isn't a debate thread.

Well, since "we came together under the mutual understanding that Tradition is holy and sacred and we affirm it." isn't it therefore required to know what that Tradition is? I meant no "debate" at all .... only clarification as to exactly what we are coming together around, what exactly is "holy and sacred that we affirm". Would you be so kind as to post or direct me to what that is for me, as one new to this forum?


Thank you!!!


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- Josiah




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What we're agreeing on is that Tradition itself is holy and sacred. The presence of Tradition in our respective churches is what binds us. This is in juxtaposition to those churches that lack formal tradition like evangelical, charismatic, pentecostal, [most] baptist churches, etc.

The fact that some churches observe seven sacraments while others only observe two or three is not the object of our focus, but rather that we observe Tradition that upholds some semblance of continuity throughout time.
 
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