Daniel & his 3 friends' diets

jackflash101

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I had a friend tell me that Daniel and his 3 friends didn't eat any meat at all after they arrived in Babylon--not just during the 10-day "test" period, that Nebuchadnezzar's chief official agreed to. (Daniel chap. 1)

Not sure that's right. Wouldn't they have allowed themselves, later on, to at least eat poultry/fish and other "clean" meats?
 

FredVB

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We are told that Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king’s delicacies, nor with the wine which he drank; therefore he requested of the chief of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself. The request was that none of the meat was to be given them but just vegetables to eat and water to drink. It was inclusive of any edible vegetation and so they had fruits, nuts, and grains. Verse 16 in that first chapter concludes that they took away their portion of delicacies and the wine that they were to drink, and gave them vegetables, this was after the test and from then on, as Daniel and his companions did not want any of the other things so as not to take part in what was defiled. It can't be assumed that chicken was made available to them as if Babylonians even had them, but all Babylonian meat could have been defiled, there were idols all around that land with offerings made and then used to eat, and meat to be kosher needed blood to be removed too.

Meat being permitted was a provision for a changed circumstance, apart from the perfect design from Yahweh God with all food provided for us being from vegetation. So it as is now known that vegetarianism with a good variety of plant-based food is much healthier. And there are more reasons in this world that would mean still having meat is not as good.

There are ordinances for the clean animals to people of Israel, yet the animals were designated clean for proper sacrifice before Israel was around, and before meat was permitted for food too. God did not always permit it, after many centuries of not doing that, when the world with its life was destroyed and the remaining creatures breathing air were in the ark and then just coming out, God then permitted it in this extreme circumstance, and with restrictions on how to have it, applying to Noah and those with him and any of his descendants, yet most of them don't take care observing to not have the blood with the meat being had. This is not something done away, it applied to all who are descended from Noah, and the apostles confirm that for believers, as they had written with agreement from the Spirit of God, as can be seen in Acts 15.

There are loads of evidence about the environmental issues, which do concern God, and for which raising crops for food is far better.

I can speak of God's design, with it shown that meat for humans to eat was not originally a part of that, having eventually been permitted, with a purpose for that, but with restrictions which really should be observed with what God said though it is generally not, and things shown that it was not to continue endlessly. With Christ having come for us it was showing animals never had to die for us again. That they do is only for a demand out of a preference, that has grown by huge amounts in just a human lifetime.

Rate of Slaughter of Chickens, Pigs, and Cows in the United States, 2008, AnimalVisuals.org
Farm Animal Statistics: Slaughter Totals : The Humane Society of the United States
The Animal Kill Counter << ADAPTT :: Animals Deserve Absolute Protection Today and Tomorrow

With it coming to 150 billion animals in this world slaughtered each year specifically for human use, this is not how there can be stability in our world, which is being threatened anyway, but with nothing so much as with this.
This Is Worse Than That

Compassion alone, which would be had with godliness, does not lead us to take part in that, and it should speak to us to look into alternatives. But animals raised and slaughtered for us, instead of plants that could provide for us without anything close to as much demand on resources, has a tremendous impact on the world with its environments, and having meat the way most of us do is not even better for our health, there may be serious health issues from it. Using just a good variety of vegetable food is better for some things health-wise, including prevention of cancers, avoiding cardiovascular problems, and even reversing type 2 diabetes.

God never thought about creating a factory farm; they were created by human beings whose god is money, and who have no empathy for the feelings and wellbeing of animals or the people who care about them.

God did not put animals in small cages to test and experiment on them; humans do this against the heavenly will of God.

God did not even think about putting several chickens in small cages stacked row upon row to produce more eggs; ungodly humans do this.

God did not want the male children of the fertilized eggs of these egg laying hens to be suffocated to death or ground up alive upon hatching; only ungodly human beings do these atrocious things.

God never wanted female pigs to be kept in crates so small that they cannot even turn around, nor did He want them to be raped to constantly keep them pregnant; only heartless human beings do these things.

God did not create cows so that their babies would be stolen from them one or two days after birth and cause the mother and child to mourn horribly for each other; only stubborn human beings do these things.

God never wanted the male calves to be kept in confinement on low iron food to keep their flesh white, and then slaughter them when they are only a few months old; only self-centered and evil people want their veal flesh and support this ungodly industry.

And these same self-centered and evil people dine on the diseased livers of forced-fed ducks and geese and think of them as delicacies (foie gras).

The people who do these horrible things and support these industries with their money are the ones who don’t have Jesus’ manifestation in their lives, for they prefer to follow the corrupt ways of the devil and his minions.

But God did foresee the stubborn intent of the human heart and soul, which came about when people turned away from Him. He created us to eat only plant foods (Genesis 1:29-30), and we are told in Proverbs 12:10
A righteous man has regard for the life of his beast,
But the compassion of the wicked is cruel.

10 Cruel Things Done to Farm Animals That No Sane Person Would Do to a Cat or Dog | One Green Planet

Information we need to hear gets repressed.

Congress To Nutritionists: Don't Talk About The Environment : The Salt : NPR

Blood, Sweat, and Fear: Workers&#146; Rights in U.S. Meat and Poultry Plants (Human Rights Watch Report, January 2005)
 
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Job8

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Not sure that's right. Wouldn't they have allowed themselves, later on, to at least eat poultry/fish and other "clean" meats?
Daniel was eating meats permitted to godly Jews later on, since we find in Dan 10:3 that he stopped eating "pleasant bread" and "flesh" [meat] and drinking wine for three whole weeks.
 
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cubanito

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Daniel was eating meats permitted to godly Jews later on, since we find in Dan 10:3 that he stopped eating "pleasant bread" and "flesh" [meat] and drinking wine for three whole weeks.

Bingo! Exactly, when Daniel was in a high enough position (very early on) he could have, and obviously did, set up a Kosher deli. In fact, in chapter 34 of Daniel it gives the recepie for Pastrami which Abed-Nego invented to rival ham!

As to the healthyness of veggies, so overstated. Yes western countries have far too much animal protein. Yes cow meat and especially pig meat is generally not great for you. However, the raising of children as strict vegeterians is a VERY tricky thing, and not all that healthy. That too is a fact. I can not speak to prediluvian human physiology, other than to say it was CLEARLY different. Perhaps with a 100 year childhood veggies is all a growing child needs, but clearly SOMETHING in human physiology changed after the flood as indicated by lifespans. Our physiology now is best served by the inclusion of animal protein in our diet, albeit at far lower amounts than in developed countries. That too is a FACT.

Now, if I can not speak about prediluvian physiology, less so can I speculate as to the workings of the glorified body ...

HOWEVER

Christ ate FISH with the Apostles after the resurrection...

SO

Killing animals is not sinful.

So will the New Jerusalem have pastrami? I'm rather sure yes BUT it might come from a cell culture attached to a 3d printer and not a butcher.

HUH?

There is already a printer that can print out a piece of meat. Sure, very small, and horribly expensive, but give a few millenia of development and I can see a future where I go to a dely in the New Jerusalem and order a pastrami sandwhich from a printer.

JR
 
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miamited

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Hi jackflash,

I think your friend has incorrectly extrapolated a portion of Scripture. While Daniel was under the control of the royal guard who prepared all of their food, he did not eat meat. The meat, as they prepared it, was probably surely defiled just by the fact that it was made for a king that they considered godlike.

Once Daniel was released from his forced stay under royal guard, I don't think we can 'assume' that his dietary habits remained the same. Once Daniel was on his own he could eat just like any other Jew would eat. That's my understanding.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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FredVB

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Daniel was eating meats permitted to godly Jews later on, since we find in Dan 10:3 that he stopped eating "pleasant bread" and "flesh" [meat] and drinking wine for three whole weeks.
I would expect such, as it is easily seen, by many, that Christians can justify much of what they think or do in any way with some scripture passage or a few. And so here many reasonable points will just be dismissed. And with what? A flimsy use of one verse that speaks from what Daniel didn't do to argue that he otherwise would do such, using one understanding of "meat", which in reality does not always mean animal flesh for meat.

So is it right that is dismissed is with just that verse with its interpretation, and assuming kosher meat was then available for Jews a bit later in the captivity? Pastrami, really? Are all other posters willing then to just overlook that Daniel doesn't go up to 34 chapters? What is dismissed then are all concerns of compassion even with learning of extensive abuse not present in earlier centuries, and the design from God, the degree of harm to the environments in the world, the starving people with diminished resources, and what is really healthier eating. I am not talking of the unhealthier vegetarian diets, but the healthy ones there are with the variety in fruits and vegetables. Yes, this is better for children too, many already know this.

Go to this address http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/mdi- with adding f-r-i-g-g-i-n as a word, which is censored here so I can't put the link here to work, and then with -fork.html at the end for the address (link doesn't work because of the censorship here, because of the word f-r-i-g-g-i-n being deleted and [bless and do not curse] put in place of each letter, from the site address referred to, which isn't mine.)
 
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cubanito

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Fred, swallow a Xanax with your next beer and hamburger. I have the Teacher's Edition, where Daniel goes to Chapter 53. Take another Xanax, with vodka this time, and read the previous sentence. Then tell me why the resurrected Christ was cooking fish for the Apostles.

I am expecting the peperony on my New Jerusalem Pizza to come from a 3D printer. You can't get better quality than from a myoblast cell culture.

JR
 
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Jane Grey

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Dear Fred,
I was a fishatarian(plants, fish, and dairy) before I was saved. When I got saved I saw it was not a sin to eat meat, so I had a filet mignon at nice restaurants on rare occasions. Then I married a major meat eater. Our first argument as a married couple happened on the way to our honeymoon destination (to get lunch a Mcdonalds or Wholefoods). I changed my diet and now after ten years of eating a ton of meat I have developed some health problems. I did some research and realized that my biggest problem is usually eliminated with the removal of meat and dairy. It got me really thinking. I agree with you on many points. My husband and I are blessed to have a very rare butcher in our town that is a part of a farm that is extremly humane. The animals have beautiful open pastures and they are slaughtered using Temple Grandin's methods. I can feel the difference after I have eaten the meat, it is huge! I have decided that I am going to stop eating meat however. There is no way, unless I am starving, I will ever touch factory farm meat again. The fact is it is absolutley Satanic what is done to those animals. It is cruel, it is destroying the earth, and peoples health. It can not be denied in anyway shape or form that factory farming is as cruel as it get and the Bible says God does not approve of that as you have quoted. God did create us to eat only plant food. I think it is possible that our phsiology did change after the fall because I do much better when I eat protein, thankfully I love tofu! I think that the fact that Jesus fed people fish shows that eating fish is good. As long is it is provided sustainably. I live on the coast and can get totally sustainably caught fish with ease. But even a lot of seafood is caught in a way that is harmful to the earth. Revelation does say God will destroy those that destroy the earth. I think any Christian should really think it through, if they want to be a part of supporting industry that destroys the earth if they have a choice. The way I read it there will be animal sacrifice in the millinium. That will be so different from the way animals are being killed now. Another point I have aften contemplated is how hypocritical it is for some "Christians" to claim it is a sin to drink or smoke. Christ gave people wine and if anyone expects me to believe it was alchohol free... The food most people feed themselves with is full of drugs. It just is, anyone can do the research. Good for you for being compassionate to animals and aware of you health. (please excuse spelling errors).
 
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FredVB

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What Cubanito posts is some strange hopeful (maybe) thought that does nothing for the horrible tragic conditions of billions of God's creatures each year going on now, with the demands now from many of us.

I don't say having meat is a sin, I can't, but going on with contributing to miserable conditions when it can be known is wrong, but Jesus, even in providing fish meat for others, wasn't ever doing that.

I might say sacrifice might not continue in the millenium that is coming, as it does not do so now, and there is reason for it to have stopped. And see why Temple Grandin is just a figure used so many more will keep eating animal meat with slaughter continuing.
Why the Meat Industry Loves Temple Grandin - The Meat and Dairy Industry - An Animal Rights Article Series from all-creatures.org

Here is what I was not able to link to.

Kathy Stevens, Catskill Animal Sanctuary
January 2015
[NOTE from All-Creatures.org: Take action - Demand Shutdown of US Meat Animal Research Center]
One particularly disturbing passage describes a study of bull libido in which a young cow was put into a metal headlock and raped by six bulls for hours. Her back legs were broken; her body ripped up. An attending vet was not allowed to euthanize her; she died. Nor are the increasingly popular &#8220;cage-free,&#8221; &#8220;humanely-raised,&#8221; or &#8220;grass-fed&#8221; products the solution. The terms are woefully loosely defined and the industries police themselves. Here&#8217;s the truth: they are largely marketing gimmicks designed to make sure that even as we suffer a crisis of conscience about our food-production system, we keep buying its products.
Who would have guessed that a single species had the power to kill our mighty oceans, or to bring our planet to its knees? Through the simple act of eating, we humans allow suffering so horrific to occur every moment of every day that &#8220;unthinkable atrocities&#8221; &#8212; language generally reserved for war &#8212; is the only language adequate to describe it.
Before the damning investigative report on the U.S. Meat Animal Research Center (MARC) in Wednesday&#8217;s New York Times, few outside the beef, pork, and lamb industries had heard of the organization. Thanks to the front page expose by Michael Moss, however, that&#8217;s no longer the case.
MARC&#8217;s mission is to help beef, pork, and lamb producers make more money &#8220;as diets shift toward poultry, fish, and produce.&#8221; To that end, MARC has sought to create cows capable of producing two or three calves, rather than one, and pigs capable of birthing fourteen piglets, rather than the average of eight. With sheep, their goal is to engineer an animal who can survive without costly human assistance.
Toward that end, ghoulish experiments have occurred for decades, funded by our tax dollars and exempt from the Animal Welfare Act. The law exempts farmed animals used in research designed to benefit agriculture.
Moss reports that &#8220;untrained, unskilled, and unsupervised staff&#8221; sometimes conducts experimental surgeries. Animals were born with deformed genitals, making urination difficult or impossible. Defenseless lambs were abandoned by their mothers and died of exposure, starvation, or predation by coyotes. Their tiny bodies were dumped into &#8220;vast excavation pits.&#8221;
One particularly disturbing passage describes a study of bull libido in which a young cow was put into a metal headlock and raped by six bulls for hours. Her back legs were broken; her body ripped up. An attending vet was not allowed to euthanize her; she died.

Sharing a moment with my friend Bernard, shortly after his rescue. Virtually all male calves of his breed are stolen from their mothers at birth, confined either in crates barely larger than their bodies or tiny confinement spaces, fed an unnatural diet that creates scours, and slaughtered at a few months old.
As heinous as these and other MARC practices are, we miss the point entirely if we focus on rogue scientists and practices at a formerly cloistered USDA program. Similarly, we miss the point entirely if we only demand that Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack stop all research at MARC, an idea forwarded in action alerts by the Humane Society and the ASPCA.
The article and most reader responses make it clear that the vast majority of Americans still don&#8217;t understand the suffering inherent in the production of their food. Here&#8217;s the stark truth, friends: MARC practices are no worse than what all animals grown to feed us endure. Our anger is justifiable, but misplaced. MARC is not the problem. MARC is a mere symptom of agribusiness gone unchecked, driven by ravenous greed, and broken beyond fixing.
Consider:

  • Every year in America, over eight billion chickens are grown inside fetid warehouses and fed antibiotics to fight off infection and to promote growth. Consequently, they reach slaughter weight at just six weeks old &#8212; so young that they still have the sweet, high-pitched &#8220;peep&#8221; of newborn chicks. Along the way, they&#8217;ve suffered burning eyes and throats, broken legs and wings. Indeed, their rapid weight gain causes many to die violently from &#8220;flip-over syndrome&#8221; long before they&#8217;re gathered &#8212; grabbed by the wings, legs, or throats by &#8220;catchers&#8221; who are paid by the number of birds they catch per hour &#8212; to be thrown into packed transport trucks.
  • Every year in America, hundreds of thousands of calves are stolen right after birth from their mothers who cry in protest, often for days. At the end of a few months of deprivation, confinement, and an unnatural diet that gives them diarrhea, the babies are processed into veal. Meanwhile, their mothers are indentured servants, placed in headlocks for &#8220;artificial insemination&#8221; and given bovine growth hormone (illegal in the European Union, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, and Israel), which forces them to produce far more milk than their bodies would normally produce to feed their offspring.
  • Every year in America, billions of animals endure the removal of testicles, horns, and beaks without anesthesia.
  • Every year in America, thousands of piglets deemed too small to be profitable are killed using a practice called &#8220;thumping&#8221; &#8212; workers grab them by the legs and swing their skulls against the wall until they break.
  • Every year in America, untold animals die during harrowing journeys to slaughter due to exposure to extreme weather. Workers have described slicing frozen animals off the sides of trucks.
  • Every moment in America, slaughterhouse killing lines move so quickly that many animals are &#8220;accidently&#8221; boiled alive, or fully conscious as their throats are slashed.
I haven&#8217;t even scratched the surface.
&#8220;Standard agricultural practices,&#8221; you see, are exempt from cruelty statutes. Times food writer Mark Bittman hit the nail on the head recently, describing &#8220;an industry that produces cruelty on a scale that&#8217;s so big and overwhelming few of us can consider it rationally or regularly.&#8221;
And there&#8217;s more, much more. As another recent Times piece points out, man is no longer just &#8220;a terrestrial predator.&#8221; In fact, science has predicted the collapse of our oceans by mid-century for several years now, and what&#8217;s already happening is shattering: albatrosses, sea turtles, dolphins, small whales, and others are killed by the hundreds of thousands each year in fishing nets the size of small villages; many are now considered endangered. Ecologically vital coral reefs have declined by 40%. Many animal species are being forced to relocate &#8212; or are being wiped out altogether &#8212; due to ocean acidification. Bottom trawlers drag miles-long nets across the ocean floor, &#8220;turning parts of the continental shelf to rubble.&#8221;
Who would have guessed that a single species had the power to kill our mighty oceans, or to bring our planet to its knees? Through the simple act of eating, we humans allow suffering so horrific to occur every moment of every day that &#8220;unthinkable atrocities&#8221; &#8212; language generally reserved for war &#8212; is the only language adequate to describe it. We don&#8217;t intend to harm, of course. But look at the consequences of our meat and dairy-centric diet:

  • a level of torture and suffering inflicted upon innocent beings most of us would have a hard time wishing upon depraved and violent criminals;
  • a nation of people so sick that the obesity rate reached a new peak in 2014;
  • a planet that is dying around us as climate change wreaks havoc on the environment.
Does taste trump everything, America? If I&#8217;m making you feel uncomfortable &#8230; good. We need to be uncomfortable.
Scientists at MARC argue that there must be &#8220;tradeoffs&#8221; in the effort to meet the food demands of a growing population. Don&#8217;t believe them. They know the truth as well as lots of folks do: raising animals to feed humans is breathtakingly inefficient, using over 15 times the natural resources (water, land, energy) to feed one meat eater as it takes to feed one vegan.



Nor are the increasingly popular &#8220;cage-free,&#8221; &#8220;humanely-raised,&#8221; or &#8220;grass-fed&#8221; products the solution. The terms are woefully loosely defined and the industries police themselves. Here&#8217;s the truth: they are largely marketing gimmicks designed to make sure that even as we suffer a crisis of conscience about our food-production system, we keep buying its products.
What would happen today if humans stopped acting as if we are the only species that matters?
A look at the history of social change suggests that seismic cultural shifts always happen incrementally; reflecting on the movements for civil rights, women&#8217;s rights, and marriage equality certainly bear out this truth. But in my book, we don&#8217;t have time for a decades-long shift to plant-based eating. Meatless Mondays, the one-state-at-a-time effort to ban the most barbaric symbols of industrial farming, the proposal to leave meat off of the USDA food plate &#8230; efforts like these are incremental victories, for sure.
But we must do better. For the love of God, we must do better.
 
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cubanito

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What Cubanito posts is some strange hopeful (maybe) thought that does nothing for the horrible tragic conditions of billions of God's creatures each year going on now, with the demands now from many of us.

I don't say having meat is a sin, I can't, but going on with contributing to miserable conditions when it can be known is wrong, but Jesus, even in providing fish meat for others, wasn't ever doing.

I might say sacrifice might not continue in the millenium that is coming, as it does not do so now, and there is reason for it to have stopped. And see why Temple Grandin is just a figure used so many more will keep eating animal meat with slaughter continuing.
Why the Meat Industry Loves Temple Grandin - The Meat and Dairy Industry - An Animal Rights Article Series from all-creatures.org

Now we can agree. So long as you do not add to the Gospel such matters as dietary laws, I can wish you well in your quest to improve the treatment of animals.

I am not advocating y'all eat meat. I am refusing to have ANYTHING added to the Gospel.

And I am serious about the 3D printer steaks as a possible future alternative to butchery.

JR
 
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FredVB

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God will destroy those that destroy the earth. I think any Christian should really think it through, if they want to be a part of supporting industry that destroys the earth if they have a choice. The way I read it there will be animal sacrifice in the millennium. That will be so different from the way animals are being killed now. Another point I have often contemplated is how hypocritical it is for some "Christians" to claim it is a sin to drink or smoke. Christ gave people wine and if anyone expects me to believe it was alcohol free... The food most people feed themselves with is full of drugs. It just is, anyone can do the research. Good for you for being compassionate to animals and aware of you health.

Though I don't think it is right to say it is always sin to eat meat, it is not the ideal, and there is the better way to eat of the provision from God without meat, and it can be sin, such as with being deliberate when it is going contrary to some knowledge. There are choices one can come to make, even as Daniel and his friends came to do. There are problems that come to this earth even with use of all those animals for us.

I know that it is thought there will still be animal sacrifice from Ezekiel 43. It isn't from anything in the new testament of the Bible or anywhere else. What is said in that section from Ezekiel in old testament times was with predictions that could have come about further back in history, with real obedience of God's people and their building according to what God revealed. The construction of that will then still come about for prophecy fulfillment. But animal sacrifice that Jews then will want to have the people return to isn't what Jesus would have continue through his reign in this world when he returns.

It might not always be sin to be drinking what has alcohol, but there are often the times that it is. Smoking is always bad for people. When doing so with any knowledge of that, it would then be sin. So doing some things with knowledge can make doing those things sin.

I don't know about drugs in food generally. Having that would be bad. But I believe such could be in meat, from information I have already seen. I know it is really desirable to find what isn't now with GMO food, for having. Such can come with allergens that consumers are not expecting, and with pesticides that can't be washed off, there has never been safety testing with such, and those producing it have not been motivated for safety to consumers. I would avoid most preprepared items, and it better to get organic fruits and vegetables.

There won't be warning when some will become fatally infected from prions from meat at some time that will come, not realizing it for years.

What Cubanito posts is some strange hopeful (maybe) thought that does nothing for the horrible tragic conditions of billions of God's creatures each year going on now, with the demands now from many of us.

I don't say having meat is a sin, I can't, but going on with contributing to miserable conditions when it can be known is wrong, but Jesus, even in providing fish meat for others, wasn't ever doing that.

I might say sacrifice might not continue in the millenium that is coming, as it does not do so now, and there is reason for it to have stopped. And see why Temple Grandin is just a figure used so many more will keep eating animal meat with slaughter continuing.
Why the Meat Industry Loves Temple Grandin - The Meat and Dairy Industry - An Animal Rights Article Series from all-creatures.org

Here is what I was not able to link to.

Kathy Stevens, Catskill Animal Sanctuary
January 2015
[NOTE from All-Creatures.org: Take action - Demand Shutdown of US Meat Animal Research Center]
One particularly disturbing passage describes a study of bull libido in which a young cow was put into a metal headlock and raped by six bulls for hours. Her back legs were broken; her body ripped up. An attending vet was not allowed to euthanize her; she died. Nor are the increasingly popular &#8220;cage-free,&#8221; &#8220;humanely-raised,&#8221; or &#8220;grass-fed&#8221; products the solution. The terms are woefully loosely defined and the industries police themselves. Here&#8217;s the truth: they are largely marketing gimmicks designed to make sure that even as we suffer a crisis of conscience about our food-production system, we keep buying its products.
Who would have guessed that a single species had the power to kill our mighty oceans, or to bring our planet to its knees? Through the simple act of eating, we humans allow suffering so horrific to occur every moment of every day that &#8220;unthinkable atrocities&#8221; &#8212; language generally reserved for war &#8212; is the only language adequate to describe it.
Before the damning investigative report on the U.S. Meat Animal Research Center (MARC) in Wednesday&#8217;s New York Times, few outside the beef, pork, and lamb industries had heard of the organization. Thanks to the front page expose by Michael Moss, however, that&#8217;s no longer the case.
MARC&#8217;s mission is to help beef, pork, and lamb producers make more money &#8220;as diets shift toward poultry, fish, and produce.&#8221; To that end, MARC has sought to create cows capable of producing two or three calves, rather than one, and pigs capable of birthing fourteen piglets, rather than the average of eight. With sheep, their goal is to engineer an animal who can survive without costly human assistance.
Toward that end, ghoulish experiments have occurred for decades, funded by our tax dollars and exempt from the Animal Welfare Act. The law exempts farmed animals used in research designed to benefit agriculture.
Moss reports that &#8220;untrained, unskilled, and unsupervised staff&#8221; sometimes conducts experimental surgeries. Animals were born with deformed genitals, making urination difficult or impossible. Defenseless lambs were abandoned by their mothers and died of exposure, starvation, or predation by coyotes. Their tiny bodies were dumped into &#8220;vast excavation pits.&#8221;
One particularly disturbing passage describes a study of bull libido in which a young cow was put into a metal headlock and raped by six bulls for hours. Her back legs were broken; her body ripped up. An attending vet was not allowed to euthanize her; she died.

Sharing a moment with my friend Bernard, shortly after his rescue. Virtually all male calves of his breed are stolen from their mothers at birth, confined either in crates barely larger than their bodies or tiny confinement spaces, fed an unnatural diet that creates scours, and slaughtered at a few months old.
As heinous as these and other MARC practices are, we miss the point entirely if we focus on rogue scientists and practices at a formerly cloistered USDA program. Similarly, we miss the point entirely if we only demand that Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack stop all research at MARC, an idea forwarded in action alerts by the Humane Society and the ASPCA.
The article and most reader responses make it clear that the vast majority of Americans still don&#8217;t understand the suffering inherent in the production of their food. Here&#8217;s the stark truth, friends: MARC practices are no worse than what all animals grown to feed us endure. Our anger is justifiable, but misplaced. MARC is not the problem. MARC is a mere symptom of agribusiness gone unchecked, driven by ravenous greed, and broken beyond fixing.
Consider:

  • Every year in America, over eight billion chickens are grown inside fetid warehouses and fed antibiotics to fight off infection and to promote growth. Consequently, they reach slaughter weight at just six weeks old &#8212; so young that they still have the sweet, high-pitched &#8220;peep&#8221; of newborn chicks. Along the way, they&#8217;ve suffered burning eyes and throats, broken legs and wings. Indeed, their rapid weight gain causes many to die violently from &#8220;flip-over syndrome&#8221; long before they&#8217;re gathered &#8212; grabbed by the wings, legs, or throats by &#8220;catchers&#8221; who are paid by the number of birds they catch per hour &#8212; to be thrown into packed transport trucks.
  • Every year in America, hundreds of thousands of calves are stolen right after birth from their mothers who cry in protest, often for days. At the end of a few months of deprivation, confinement, and an unnatural diet that gives them diarrhea, the babies are processed into veal. Meanwhile, their mothers are indentured servants, placed in headlocks for &#8220;artificial insemination&#8221; and given bovine growth hormone (illegal in the European Union, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, and Israel), which forces them to produce far more milk than their bodies would normally produce to feed their offspring.
  • Every year in America, billions of animals endure the removal of testicles, horns, and beaks without anesthesia.
  • Every year in America, thousands of piglets deemed too small to be profitable are killed using a practice called &#8220;thumping&#8221; &#8212; workers grab them by the legs and swing their skulls against the wall until they break.
  • Every year in America, untold animals die during harrowing journeys to slaughter due to exposure to extreme weather. Workers have described slicing frozen animals off the sides of trucks.
  • Every moment in America, slaughterhouse killing lines move so quickly that many animals are &#8220;accidently&#8221; boiled alive, or fully conscious as their throats are slashed.
I haven&#8217;t even scratched the surface.
&#8220;Standard agricultural practices,&#8221; you see, are exempt from cruelty statutes. Times food writer Mark Bittman hit the nail on the head recently, describing &#8220;an industry that produces cruelty on a scale that&#8217;s so big and overwhelming few of us can consider it rationally or regularly.&#8221;
And there&#8217;s more, much more. As another recent Times piece points out, man is no longer just &#8220;a terrestrial predator.&#8221; In fact, science has predicted the collapse of our oceans by mid-century for several years now, and what&#8217;s already happening is shattering: albatrosses, sea turtles, dolphins, small whales, and others are killed by the hundreds of thousands each year in fishing nets the size of small villages; many are now considered endangered. Ecologically vital coral reefs have declined by 40%. Many animal species are being forced to relocate &#8212; or are being wiped out altogether &#8212; due to ocean acidification. Bottom trawlers drag miles-long nets across the ocean floor, &#8220;turning parts of the continental shelf to rubble.&#8221;
Who would have guessed that a single species had the power to kill our mighty oceans, or to bring our planet to its knees? Through the simple act of eating, we humans allow suffering so horrific to occur every moment of every day that &#8220;unthinkable atrocities&#8221; &#8212; language generally reserved for war &#8212; is the only language adequate to describe it. We don&#8217;t intend to harm, of course. But look at the consequences of our meat and dairy-centric diet:

  • a level of torture and suffering inflicted upon innocent beings most of us would have a hard time wishing upon depraved and violent criminals;
  • a nation of people so sick that the obesity rate reached a new peak in 2014;
  • a planet that is dying around us as climate change wreaks havoc on the environment.
Does taste trump everything, America? If I&#8217;m making you feel uncomfortable &#8230; good. We need to be uncomfortable.
Scientists at MARC argue that there must be &#8220;tradeoffs&#8221; in the effort to meet the food demands of a growing population. Don&#8217;t believe them. They know the truth as well as lots of folks do: raising animals to feed humans is breathtakingly inefficient, using over 15 times the natural resources (water, land, energy) to feed one meat eater as it takes to feed one vegan.

Nor are the increasingly popular &#8220;cage-free,&#8221; &#8220;humanely-raised,&#8221; or &#8220;grass-fed&#8221; products the solution. The terms are woefully loosely defined and the industries police themselves. Here&#8217;s the truth: they are largely marketing gimmicks designed to make sure that even as we suffer a crisis of conscience about our food-production system, we keep buying its products.
What would happen today if humans stopped acting as if we are the only species that matters?
A look at the history of social change suggests that seismic cultural shifts always happen incrementally; reflecting on the movements for civil rights, women&#8217;s rights, and marriage equality certainly bear out this truth. But in my book, we don&#8217;t have time for a decades-long shift to plant-based eating. Meatless Mondays, the one-state-at-a-time effort to ban the most barbaric symbols of industrial farming, the proposal to leave meat off of the USDA food plate &#8230; efforts like these are incremental victories, for sure.
But we must do better. For the love of God, we must do better.

Now we can agree. So long as you do not add to the Gospel such matters as dietary laws, I can wish you well in your quest to improve the treatment of animals.
I am not advocating y'all eat meat. I am refusing to have ANYTHING added to the Gospel.
And I am serious about the 3D printer steaks as a possible future alternative to butchery.
JR

I have never been adding dietary rules to the gospel, or saying such has to do with anyone's salvation. You can check any of my posts where I speak of the gospel. Yet caring for how animals are treated, our health, and what is done in this world, Yahweh God's creation and possession, would be good to do. Having meat really shouldn't be advocated. And "3D printer steaks" is not a realistic solution that can be expected any time soon, when changes are needed very soon.
 
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cubanito

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Though I don't think it is right to say it is always sin to eat meat, it is not the ideal, and there is the better way to eat of the provision from God without meat, and it can be sin, such as with being deliberate when it is going contrary to some knowledge. There are choices one can come to make, even as Daniel and his friends came to do. There are problems that come to this earth even with use of all those animals for us.
... And "3D printer steaks" is not a realistic solution that can be expected any time soon, when changes are needed very soon.

We can agree on this, or disagree, so long as we add nothing to salvation. I agree with you Fred on the basic.

Of course the 3D printer is not now realistic. My point is that given a few thousand years of a perfect society, it COULD be an anwser to providing meat without killing animale. That is TOTAL speculation on my part, and in no way am I trying to add a chapter to Revelations! When we acknowledge our limitations, such as keeping Sola Fide pure, we can go on to fruitful discussions and significant actions. That is all I hear you say Fred, and I agree.

JR
 
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FredVB

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I am sure that I am not adding to the biblical gospel for salvation, it is through the Lord Jesus Christ, with anyone's repentance for sinning coming to him in faith, that is with trust following him even in what he says, for redemption through the atonement with what he accomplished with his life fully with obedience in all things for godliness given with his suffering and crucifixion to die on the cross, afterward rising again, for our restoration to God.

But my point in the posts here is that there are different circumstances now during the last several generations, than whatever was happening in biblical times. Sure people had meat, it is overstated though that Jesus was eating meat from nothing but a questionable interpretation of one verse. But the circumstances now are with the many billions of animals each year being slaughtered, for the greater consumption of meat by individuals generally of those that are privileged and with deprivation of food in other countries where some even starve to death, and there being issues of horrendous treatment of animals in those industries which is known, that was never an institution existing in biblical times. Optimism for what can be done generations later for relief to this huge injustice with all the abuse and unnecessary slaughter does nothing for it now, when there is a much healthier way to eat without depending on meat, and alternative ways to have all your nutrition as needed. Not making change for that if you know there are such great issues with your choosing meat, which you do know, is disregarding what is wrong for a personal preference.

Pagans typically sacrificed animals to idols when they slaughtered them. Wine was also typically dedicated to idols. Basically the same issue brought up by Paul in Romans.

Yes they did, and today that is an issue in some places in this world. It is further a disobedience to what God said in the Bible, for all of us, to have any blood that there would be with meat, it would have to be removed, at least. And Paul was writing if your brother is grieved because of your food you are no longer walking in love, which is expected of believers. It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother is offended. Are there any who have been eating meat that will stop it, to not offend any other? I thought not, and I only see any arguing with any others saying there are objections to having meat, even with being offensive, even though knowing scriptures. Yet Paul wrote, and should be believed, "if food makes my brother stumble I will never again eat meat". I don't see that any would do that now. Yet it is shown there are in fact abundant reasons now to not have meat. Wine is not a great idea to keep having on any occasion, either.
 
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samkadya

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The prophet Ezekiel speaks of the great need for strong, wise mean and women in these last days (Ezekierl 14:20). Great events will take place in heaven and earth, and we must know how to understand what they mean. For this reason God requires His people to live in a healthful and temperate way, as Daniel did in the king's palace. By the grace of Christ we can overcome the temptation to eat the wrong way, and to weaken ourselves by overindulgence. Jesus was tempted more than we can be tempted on this point, because He fasted for forty days. You can say, by faith, "I can do all things through christ which strengtheneth me.' Philippians 4:13.

What reward for such temperance and godly living do we see? Daniel and his companions far excelled all the other students at the end of their three years' course of study. Are you interested in further education? Here is something for you to notice. God was preparing these youths to do a wonderful work for Him, for through them He would give a knowledge of the truth of the Gospel to all the world.

Where are the youth of today who will follow the example of Daniel and his three companions, that God may equip them to be a great blessing to the world?
 
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FredVB

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This is a good point. So many are missing a greater blessing. Rather than such a more moderate way, there is instead with them, if they are indeed in Christ coming to him for salvation from him as Lord, dependence on liberty that is mentioned for believers in scriptures. There is this, for the greater availability for the way of salvation to many as they are. They are then to turn from obvious sin, and sins are truly spelled out for such to be recognized in the Bible. But they come to this without real openness to growing more to the perfect will of God. In the case of a diet without meat, the arrangement from the will of God in the perfection of the beginning was that way, it is indeed coming to that in the restoration which is to include the redeemed as shown with suggestion in the Bible, as I have brought up. The resistance in this case to a change to such is for the most part with thinking of deprivation that is imagined to be with that. They will not imagine the explosion of wonderful tasty and healthy variety that is available to those who find it with coming to such change. And with it in the healthy way that it can be had there really is avoidance of many health problems that are very common among the rest of the culture around them. As previously mentioned, many choosing this makes food more available so that some, who won't get enough and will starve, will have enough to still live. It would be with easing stress to environments and resources, which as it is has this world coming to greater problems. And many choosing it will reduce the great injustice with horrible abuse that can be shown to any looking at the truth and the brutal slaughter of billions and billions of animals every year for the demand from humans, in our generation, when it is shown that isn't needed.

Since Christ came for us, no animal ever has to die for us again.

Still many choose for desires serving their belly and taste preference.

There are other such evils that could be brought up to show that is found among humanity, indeed we have a sinful and self-serving nature. Our kind is the one in this world with sin, and so much.
 
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FredVB

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There is greater need in the world today to make changes the way things are going and with our toll with the demand on meat and animal products, and not to be dismissive with saying it doesn't matter if we don't change. Believers should learn this and be willing to change as far as possible for what is better.
 
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FredVB

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However, we need care how to say it. The truth is inconvenient in fact, truly. We are not in a world that is just like it's been for thousands of years, and for those of us praying the prayer we were taught, with Your will on earth as it is in Heaven, we might not mean it as it really was meant, but we should mean it fully.
 
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samkadya

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In the original language of the book of Daniel, 'pulse' (Hebrew: zero'im) meant 'food derived from plants', the kind that God gave to our first parents in the Garden of Eden. God said to them, '....I have given you every herb bearing seed,.... and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat [food].' Genesis 1:29. The food that Daniel chose was therefore fruits, grains, nuts, and vegetables, and the wonderful drink that God has given us for our health - pure water.

As Daniel expected, after ten days of eating this simple but nourishing food, his health was excellent, and that of hiss companions also. They were able to study easily. It is just as true today that a healthful diet and proper physical habits are a most wonderful aid to mental an moral strength. Students in school would be wise to follow the youthful Daniel's example.


Read more: http://www.christiansermonsandmusicvideos.com/2014/12/daniel-chap-1-commentary-daniels-diet.html
 
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FredVB

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There is this truth, that those saying Daniel did not persist in his plant-based diet are missing. It was when enough time had passed that it was seen that Daniel and those friends with him who had been having this plant-based diet were looking much healthier, before he was away from being guarded, and still then under service to the Babylonian king, with power over his life still, and with no animal meat available that was certainly kosher, and the king's questionable delicacies still made available. Daniel, and the others with him, who had such reason to choose only a plant-based diet, had no motive then, with their greater health showing then, to break from that ever again. I know for a reality that tastes change with changes made in eating, so that after not so much time, they wouldn't even desire meats that they were no longer having, not that the sort of meat that had become permitted (as meat-eating Christians like mentioning from what Yahweh told Noah in that case of the altered world after the global flood) would have been available anyway, as that remained very doubtful.
 
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