Same-sex marriages are now legal in Florida

Aldebaran · Feb 5, 2015

Yes, you look the other way if you find it offensive, UNLESS it does actual harm to another individual. Nowhere in Scripture are we told to confront sin in society. And, none of the apostles did so, including Paul. We ARE told to confront sin within the Church. His statements to the Corinthians were to denounce the actions of the CHURCH, not the society.

And nowhere did Christ ever tell anyone to condemn sin in society. He instructed them to preach the Gospel. Condemning sin in individuals outside the Church is the sole prerogative of the Holy Spirit, not the members of the Body.

Remember the name of this website and who it is for, ok? Do you really think Christians who come here and see posts written by nonbelievers supporting the idea of homosexuality, and SSM, and even the forcing of Christians to endorse these things to just sit idly by and not even say anything in opposition to it? Where does it say in scripture that we're to stay silent when sin is being supported, either in the church, or on a website that is made for the Christian community to meet and discuss?

As for referring to me and others who confront this sort of thing as "accusers", I'll have you know that we haven't made any accusations. We are instead confronting an issue.

StephanieSomer · Feb 5, 2015

And my whole point is that we are NEVER instructed to "confront" society, only preach to it.

Aldebaran · Feb 5, 2015

StephanieSomer said:
And my whole point is that we are NEVER instructed to "confront" society, only preach to it.

That's been done. As you may have noticed, nonbelievers don't usually come here and bring up these subjects so they can be preached to. They do it to promote their agenda, and to have discussions with people of opposing views. They've told me this on a number of occasions.

StephanieSomer · Feb 5, 2015

Aldebaran said:
That's been done. As you may have noticed, nonbelievers don't usually come here and bring up these subjects so they can be preached to. They do it to promote their agenda, and to have discussions with people of opposing views. They've told me this on a number of occasions.

Why do you continually insist on labeling anyone who disagrees with your views on these subjects as "nonbelievers"? This isn't the first time you've made that same statement. I am NOT an unbeliever. Neither was the last person you quoted and then made such a statement. Continued insinuations of this kind will only serve to encourage me to unsubscribe. I don't argue with closed minds.

If this forum is NOT open to all people, regardless of religious beliefs, or lack thereof, please show me where that is stated. If such a statement does not exist, then the apparent attitude of intolerance for "heathens" is unjustified.

Aldebaran · Feb 5, 2015

StephanieSomer said:
Why do you continually insist on labeling anyone who disagrees with your views on these subjects as "nonbelievers"? This isn't the first time you've made that same statement. I am NOT an unbeliever. Neither was the last person you quoted and then made such a statement. Continued insinuations of this kind will only serve to encourage me to unsubscribe. I don't argue with closed minds.

If this forum is NOT open to all people, regardless of religious beliefs, or lack thereof, please show me where that is stated. If such a statement does not exist, then the apparent attitude of intolerance for "heathens" is unjustified.

Why are you getting so defensive??? Did I call you an unbeliever? No, I did not. (This is not the first time you've accused me of saying that either). Go back and read what I actually wrote and you'll see it. I was simply telling you what THEY come here for, which as I said, is not to be preached to but rather to push their own agenda and to have discussions with those holding opposing views. Here's the exact quote from what I said:

Aldebaran said:
That's been done. As you may have noticed, nonbelievers don't usually come here and bring up these subjects so they can be preached to. They do it to promote their agenda, and to have discussions with people of opposing views. They've told me this on a number of occasions.

I don't see where I called YOU an unbeliever! I was referring to those who refer to themselves as nonChristian, atheist, whatever.

GenetoJean · Feb 5, 2015

Aldebaran said:
Why are you getting so defensive??? Did I call you an unbeliever? No, I did not. (This is not the first time you've accused me of saying that either). Go back and read what I actually wrote and you'll see it. I was simply telling you what THEY come here for, which as I said, is not to be preached to but rather to push their own agenda and to have discussions with those holding opposing views.

Christiansurvivalguide started this thread and they are a Christian. I know now you are going to backpedal and say you didn't mean to call them an unbeliever. However, when you quote someone and say that a person who posts whatever it is you are quoting is an unbeliever, that is accusing the person who wrote it as an unbeliever.

Aldebaran · Feb 5, 2015

GenetoJean said:
Christiansurvivalguide started this thread and they are a Christian. I know now you are going to backpedal and say you didn't mean to call them an unbeliever. However, when you quote someone and say that a person who posts whatever it is you are quoting is an unbeliever, that is accusing the person who wrote it as an unbeliever.

So what quote did I make and say that it was an unbeliever that said it? (Not that you were even the person I was just talking to). Since it was StephanieSomer I was talking to and was making the accusation, I would find it more meaningful to hear the answer from her.

GenetoJean · Feb 6, 2015

Aldebaran said:
So what quote did I make and say that it was an unbeliever that said it? (Not that you were even the person I was just talking to). Since it was StephanieSomer I was talking to and was making the accusation, I would find it more meaningful to hear the answer from her.

If I weren't on my phone, I would quote the times you did it. However, you quoted me and and talked about unbelievers saying what I said. Then you said that peoe who bring these topics into a Christian forum are non-believers wanting to promote their ideas and I pointed out that it was a Christian who brought the topic here. If you aren't trying to indirectly accuse us then why bring up unbelievers since unbelievers had nothing to do with what you are quoting?

TheChristianSurvivalGuide · Feb 6, 2015

Aldebaran said:
By my questions, I'm trying to find a basis that this user is basing his reasoning on so we can get a mutual understanding. So far, the conversation has been going nowhere, so I'm trying to get some level of understanding established.

Please note that I am at this particular post and do not know if anyone else has addressed you yet.

I understand what you are saying. I agree that we should be allowed to discuss these issues to gain mutual understanding, as you put it.

However, what many posters are saying is that in their statement replying to your line of questioning that they might say something which could possibly be construed as promotion of homosexuality. In that case they would have violated a standing policy restricting any promotion of homosexuality on this forum.

In a case where a determination was made by moderators that such a policy was indeed violated that poster might be subject to discipline and this thread could be locked, modified, or deleted.

Nobody here wants that to happen.

So you see, it only stands to reason that a poster does not answer your question if the answer might constitute a violation of policy.

TheChristianSurvivalGuide · Feb 6, 2015

Aldebaran,

Maybe you are just not aware of how your statement regarding non-believers came across. I too, felt it somewhat accusatory towards those in this thread who seem to oppose your viewpoint.

It's ok. You are saying that was not your intention, correct?

So let's all refocus on the issue at hand.

Aldebaran · Feb 6, 2015

TheChristianSurvivalGuide said:
However, what many posters are saying is that in their statement replying to your line of questioning that they might say something which could possibly be construed as promotion of homosexuality. In that case they would have violated a standing policy restricting any promotion of homosexuality on this forum.

This is basically what I'm trying to find out from them by asking them those questions. If they're coming from an understanding that homosexuality is just fine and that's the reasoning behind what they're saying, then it would be nice to know that. If their reasoning is strictly the legal side of the issue without any moral ground, then it would be nice to know that too. Oftentimes, it's hard to understand what point of view a person is speaking from when they defend SSM, or a court case against a baker, etc. without knowing which angle they're speaking about it from.

Also, when I use the term "unbelievers", I'm referring to those on this forum who mention as much in their profile, and proudly admit that they are not believers, don't believe in God, and even come here and mock Christians and our beliefs without consequence, and list themselves as atheiest in their own profile and have told me openly that they have no interest in Christianity. They've even told me that they are here to "help people here to see that God isn't real". If I list any names, then I'm in violation of the rules, so I can't be specific about who I'm referring to. I used to simply refer to them as atheists, but they didn't like that, so now I'm using the more general term "unbelievers" which for some reason, even Christians seem to think I'm referring to them. Can't seem to win.

TheChristianSurvivalGuide · Feb 6, 2015

Well, this particular sub-forum is in the Christian Only section. So you need not worry about unbelievers in this thread.

I also agree that understanding a person's general experience and opinion on a subject might help in gaining a grasp on context. However, their feelings towards a certain subject do not effect the validity of any information they present.

Do you understand this concept?

GenetoJean · Feb 6, 2015

Aldebaran said:
This is basically what I'm trying to find out from them by asking them those questions. If they're coming from an understanding that homosexuality is just fine and that's the reasoning behind what they're saying, then it would be nice to know that. If their reasoning is strictly the legal side of the issue without any moral ground, then it would be nice to know that too. Oftentimes, it's hard to understand what point of view a person is speaking from when they defend SSM, or a court case against a baker, etc. without knowing which angle they're speaking about it from.

Also, when I use the term "unbelievers", I'm referring to those on this forum who mention as much in their profile, and proudly admit that they are not believers, don't believe in God, and even come here and mock Christians and our beliefs without consequence, and list themselves as atheiest in their own profile and have told me openly that they have no interest in Christianity. They've even told me that they are here to "help people here to see that God isn't real". If I list any names, then I'm in violation of the rules, so I can't be specific about who I'm referring to. I used to simply refer to them as atheists, but they didn't like that, so now I'm using the more general term "unbelievers" which for some reason, even Christians seem to think I'm referring to them. Can't seem to win.

Here is my best attempt at answering your question as far as my personal views. I am a Christian, due to the rules of this for him I cannot express my views on homosexuality, but I do not think something being a sin is a reason for it to be illegal. I believe it is a sin to cheat on your spouse, however, I do not believe it should be illegal. That is just one example that I can discuss.

Metal Minister · Feb 6, 2015

GenetoJean said:
Here is my best attempt at answering your question as far as my personal views. I am a Christian, due to the rules of this for him I cannot express my views on homosexuality, but I do not think something being a sin is a reason for it to be illegal. I believe it is a sin to cheat on your spouse, however, I do not believe it should be illegal. That is just one example that I can discuss.

Who said homosexuality is illegal? And homosexual "marriage" isn't illegal, it just isn't recognized. (Except where it now is.)

TheChristianSurvivalGuide · Feb 6, 2015

Metal - I think you need to go back a few pages and gain context on what GenetoJean's post was directed towards.

He did not state or even imply that any poster had stated that homosexuality was illegal. He specifically did not touch on that because it was not directly relevant to the line of questioning posed by Aldebaran.

StephanieSomer · Feb 7, 2015

Aldebaran said:
This is basically what I'm trying to find out from them by asking them those questions. If they're coming from an understanding that homosexuality is just fine and that's the reasoning behind what they're saying, then it would be nice to know that. If their reasoning is strictly the legal side of the issue without any moral ground, then it would be nice to know that too. Oftentimes, it's hard to understand what point of view a person is speaking from when they defend SSM, or a court case against a baker, etc. without knowing which angle they're speaking about it from.

Also, when I use the term "unbelievers", I'm referring to those on this forum who mention as much in their profile, and proudly admit that they are not believers, don't believe in God, and even come here and mock Christians and our beliefs without consequence, and list themselves as atheiest in their own profile and have told me openly that they have no interest in Christianity. They've even told me that they are here to "help people here to see that God isn't real". If I list any names, then I'm in violation of the rules, so I can't be specific about who I'm referring to. I used to simply refer to them as atheists, but they didn't like that, so now I'm using the more general term "unbelievers" which for some reason, even Christians seem to think I'm referring to them. Can't seem to win.

The reason you can't seem to win is because there are many Christians, like myself, that do recognize the legitimate and just claims of some who do not name the Name of Christ, simply because their claims agree with Scriptural tenets. And, you can't see it. Not everything an unbeliever supports is automatically anti-God. You need to drop the idea that everything you support is necessarily Scriptural, because is isn't. Not a one of us has everything in Scriptural order. To believe that we do is incredibly arrogant.

hankroberts · Feb 7, 2015

StephanieSomer said:
But that grounding doesn't extend to enforcement of the religious belief. Is the denial of free will Good, or Evil?

I don't recall anyone saying that the grounding of laws extends to enforcement of religious belief in general: did someone make that claim? The fact is that in this nation, the enforcement of a particular religious system was the express prohibition of the Constitution (not separation of church and state but rather Anti-Establishment).

Is the denial of free will Good, or Evil?

No one has been denied free will, nor has anyone suggested that they be denied free will. If someone insists that you cannot create a square circle, that is not denying you free will: that is stating the obvious truth that you are trying to do something which is impossible, by definition.

hankroberts · Feb 7, 2015

Every law promotes some ideological view: criminal law, contract law, traffic law, civil codes: all of them are grounded in a particular religious and moral view.

imind said:
lol, no...i have no religious or moral obligation to use my blinker when turning...

(sigh...) And has anyone suggested that you do have a religious or moral obligation to use your blinker when turning?

Technically, since that is the law, you actually would have a moral duty to do that. But my point was that every law, including traffic law, is grounded in the ideological view that life and property are valuable and worth protecting, by the standardized use of certain practices like speed limits and stop signs.

hankroberts · Feb 7, 2015

StephanieSomer said:
Well, your comments WERE condescending. I recognized it the first time you did it. It's a putdown, and you know it.

Actually, no, they were not: that is a common turn of phrase in my culture, and not condescending at all. If you want to presume it is then I can't stop you, but the fact is that you are presuming to know my mind, and that is simply not true.

Even if it were condescending, he completely missed the actual point and elected to chase a false issue instead.

hankroberts · Feb 7, 2015

Just a general note to everyone: I'm experiencing some severe bandwidth problems with my internet provider, so if I don't respond promptly it is not because I refuse but because I cannot. If you've posted to me and not gotten a response, prompt me and I'll try.

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