Same-sex marriages are now legal in Florida

GenetoJean

Veteran
Jun 25, 2012
2,807
140
Delaware
Visit site
✟18,940.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
That's one of the false narratives unbelievers often try to wedge into the conversation in order to avoid what's actually being discussed.

First I'm not an unbeliever. Second, it is a very legitimate point that you are just trying to avoid. Third, since no one is telling the church how to do marriage, no one is attacking the institution of marriage that God handed down. Legal marriage is not the institution of marriage that God handed down; it is a legal construct that man decided to put into law.
 
Upvote 0

Aldebaran

NCC-1701-A
Christian Forums Staff
Purple Team - Moderator
Supporter
Oct 17, 2009
38,639
12,105
Wisconsin, United States of America
✟622,572.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
First I'm not an unbeliever. Second, it is a very legitimate point that you are just trying to avoid. Third, since no one is telling the church how to do marriage, no one is attacking the institution of marriage that God handed down. Legal marriage is not the institution of marriage that God handed down; it is a legal construct that man decided to put into law.

Attacking, redefining, forcing us to accept a new definition that flies in the face of the institution of marriage God handed down--you can word it however you like. But each of us as individuals has to decide what we're going to accept, and promote. I choose not to be one who promotes the idea that 2 men "marrying" each other is acceptable to God. If He refers to them having sex together as an abomination, then referring to them as equal to a man and wife in marriage is basically telling God that His guidlines are outdated in your mind.
 
Upvote 0

Metal Minister

New Year, Still Old School!
May 8, 2012
12,140
591
✟29,999.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Adam and Eve. Was there another choice? It was my understanding that they were the only humans here at the time. So, your line of questioning is not only suspect, it's heavily flawed.

And what system does Jesus reiterate in Matthew 19? (Unless you're saying that Jesus was flawed in His words there?)
 
Upvote 0

Aldebaran

NCC-1701-A
Christian Forums Staff
Purple Team - Moderator
Supporter
Oct 17, 2009
38,639
12,105
Wisconsin, United States of America
✟622,572.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Charging a fellow member who identifies as Christian as an "unbeliever" is against forum rules. Would you care to modify your statement?

Nobody is being charged as anything. I simply pointed out that unbelievers use that false narrative in order to change the subject. If a Christian wants to use that false narrative as well, it's up to them.
 
Upvote 0

GenetoJean

Veteran
Jun 25, 2012
2,807
140
Delaware
Visit site
✟18,940.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Attacking, redefining, forcing us to accept a new definition that flies in the face of the institution of marriage God handed down--you can word it however you like. But each of us as individuals has to decide what we're going to accept, and promote. I choose not to be one who promotes the idea that 2 men "marrying" each other is acceptable to God. If He refers to them having sex together as an abomination, then referring to them as equal to a man and wife in marriage is basically telling God that His guidlines are outdated in your mind.
What we have as legal marriage does not tell God anything just like the fact we allow people to be Buddhist in this country does not tell God we are putting another god before him.
 
Upvote 0

Audacious

Viva La Socialist Revolution
Oct 7, 2010
1,668
1,086
30
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, United States
✟49,104.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Attacking, redefining, forcing us to accept a new definition that flies in the face of the institution of marriage God handed down--you can word it however you like. But each of us as individuals has to decide what we're going to accept, and promote. I choose not to be one who promotes the idea that 2 men "marrying" each other is acceptable to God. If He refers to them having sex together as an abomination, then referring to them as equal to a man and wife in marriage is basically telling God that His guidlines are outdated in your mind.
Not really. A word can have more than one meaning, and sometimes, these meanings can mutually contradict each other. The key here is context.

Words also tend to change over time, due to the evolution of language; basically, languages are always in flux, and words tend to come and go. "Marriage" can mean one thing in relation to God or a religious institution, and another in relation to a governmental authority or legal institution.

This definition of marriage does not say that Christian marriage can be between people of either sex; it says that government-recognized marriage can be between people of either sex. Religion simply has no place within the functions of the United States government, as per separation of church and state, and thus, the government cannot legislate anything to do with the Christian definition of marriage. The two definitions are separate, and nobody can force anyone to marry two people who does not agree with said marriage (unless you're the official giving out marriage licenses, in which case your job is not a religious one, but a government position).

We are talking about a government and economic institution, not marriage in the religious sense, if only because the government doesn't have the power to mandate that sort of thing.
 
Upvote 0

Aldebaran

NCC-1701-A
Christian Forums Staff
Purple Team - Moderator
Supporter
Oct 17, 2009
38,639
12,105
Wisconsin, United States of America
✟622,572.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
What we have as legal marriage does not tell God anything just like the fact we allow people to be Buddhist in this country does not tell God we are putting another god before him.

What you personally promote tells God plenty. If He tells you what His way is, and you turn around and do, or promote, the opposite, you're saying, "My way is better than God's way". What other message could you possibly be conveying? Actions speak louder than words.
 
Upvote 0

Audacious

Viva La Socialist Revolution
Oct 7, 2010
1,668
1,086
30
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, United States
✟49,104.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
What you personally promote tells God plenty. If He tells you what His way is, and you turn around and do, or promote, the opposite, you're saying, "My way is better than God's way". What other message could you possibly be conveying? Actions speak louder than words.
The thing is, by making something legal, you're not necessarily saying that people should do that thing; you're just making it so that people are able to do harmless things according to their own judgement without being needlessly harmed and victimized.

The idea is that you're an independent, rational entity capable of making your own choices; the law doesn't exist to enforce one version of morality in everyone -- rather, its purpose in a democracy is to allow people to have as many rights as possible without infringing upon the rights of others. You seem to be confusing the legal system with an oppressive theocracy, which the United States isn't.

However, you are free to move to Uganda, where separation of church isn't a thing and gay people are regularly imprisoned for the crime of existing. I'm sure it's a paradise.
 
Upvote 0

GenetoJean

Veteran
Jun 25, 2012
2,807
140
Delaware
Visit site
✟18,940.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
What you personally promote tells God plenty. If He tells you what His way is, and you turn around and do, or promote, the opposite, you're saying, "My way is better than God's way". What other message could you possibly be conveying? Actions speak louder than words.

God knows what I promote and I am not ashamed of it and feel God approves.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Audacious

Viva La Socialist Revolution
Oct 7, 2010
1,668
1,086
30
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, United States
✟49,104.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
But a person who is governed by such laws and is speaking about those laws has a choice to look at it and ask himself, "Does this law agree with what God says through His Word"? Then that person can read God's Word and see what it says, compare it to the law of the land and determine whether or not it is something God would want him to be promoting as an idea.

Question: Does God in His Word instruct us to promote homosexuality, or the idea of homosexuals getting married?
Once again: by saying something should be legal, you are not promoting that thing. You're not saying that it's a good thing, or even something that isn't morally objectionable -- you're just saying that people should have the right to make their own decisions. If God didn't mean for us to have free will, he wouldn't have given it to us in the first place; if we don't have free will, then I have no choice in the matter regardless, and the idea that I decide my own actions and views is illusory.

God gave us the freedom to decide for ourselves, and we are owed that freedom from our government as well -- at least, when nobody is being directly harmed or having their rights untowardly curtailed. I wholeheartedly believe that God is pro-freedom of choice, even if he doesn't agree with our choices, so I would definitely say that God approves of my decision to uphold individual freedom. We have the freedom to do what we want, and he has the freedom to condemn us for it.

God may tell me, when I reach heaven, that I was completely wrong about free will and/or the whole gay marriage thing; that'd be a shame. However, I fully expect that God is going to tell me a whole lot of things that I was totally wrong about, and if this happens to be one of them, then... okay, I guess I wasn't expecting that, but I don't think I would be expecting any of my other opinions to be wrong, either. (I don't think that God wastes time telling us how flawed we are or whatever, but there's virtually no way that I wouldn't ask him, assuming that I didn't already know somehow.).

I'm going to do the best I can with the brain, data and personality that I am given, at least as far as I know, and I'm an imperfect being who is going to be wrong sometimes; every statement I make could be completely false. I've come to terms with that.
 
Upvote 0

Aldebaran

NCC-1701-A
Christian Forums Staff
Purple Team - Moderator
Supporter
Oct 17, 2009
38,639
12,105
Wisconsin, United States of America
✟622,572.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
God knows what I promote and I am not ashamed of it and feel God approves.

Did you ever pray and ask him if He approves? Feelings can be very deceitful.
 
Upvote 0

Audacious

Viva La Socialist Revolution
Oct 7, 2010
1,668
1,086
30
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, United States
✟49,104.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Did you ever pray and ask him if He approves? Feelings can be very deceitful.
This may be a shocker, but there are many Christians who have meditated on scripture, researched it, and thought and prayed about it who still disagree with you on the topic of gay marriage.

Do you actually question your own motives, or just everyone else's?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ada Lovelace
Upvote 0

Aldebaran

NCC-1701-A
Christian Forums Staff
Purple Team - Moderator
Supporter
Oct 17, 2009
38,639
12,105
Wisconsin, United States of America
✟622,572.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
This may be a shocker, but there are many Christians who have meditated on scripture, researched it, and thought and prayed about it who still disagree with you on the topic of gay marriage.

It doesn't matter whether they agree with me or not. But they should be darn sure that they are living in accordance with scripture. Isn't that what counts? You talk about Christians meditating on scripture, researching scripture and praying about it, and then you mention about them disagreeing with ME. Did I write scripture??? If you don't agree with scripture, then I'm not the one you have a problem with.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Metal Minister

New Year, Still Old School!
May 8, 2012
12,140
591
✟29,999.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Ok, let's make this simple. Where in Scripture does God change His mind on homosexuality and marriage? Knowing full well I can point to Matthew 19 and we can all see Jesus affirming that marriage is between one man and one woman, where does He change His mind? There is zero argument as to what the Lord says in Matthew 19. It's as plain as speech gets: Matthew 19:1-9
When Jesus had finished these words, He departed from Galilee and came into the region of Judea beyond the Jordan;[bless and do not curse]and[bless and do not curse]large crowds followed Him, and[bless and do not curse]He healed them there.

Some[bless and do not curse]Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, “Is it lawful[bless and do not curse]for a man[bless and do not curse]to[bless and do not curse]divorce his wife for any reason at all?”[bless and do not curse]And He answered and said,[bless and do not curse]“Have you not read that He who created[bless and do not curse]themfrom the beginning[bless and do not curse]made them male and female,[bless and do not curse]and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and[bless and do not curse]the two shall become one flesh’?[bless and do not curse]So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to[bless and do not curse]give her a certificate of divorce and send[bless and do not curse]her[bless and do not curse]away?”[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]He said to them,[bless and do not curse]“Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to[bless and do not curse]divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.[bless and do not curse]And I say to you,[bless and do not curse]whoever[bless and do not curse]divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman[bless and do not curse]commits adultery.”


So as we can see, Jesus quotes the old testament (Genesis) and gives us the interpretation. (Bolded portion)
We have the family as God intended. (Father, Mother, children) and the institution of marriage as God intended. (A man shall leave his parents....the two shall become one flesh...). There is no leeway here. That is God's intended structure. To go any other way is to claim that either God was wrong, or that man no longer needs this part of God's word.
Which is more loving, to allow people to remain ignorant of their sin for fear of hurting their feelings, or to explain to them that they (we all) are sinners in need of God's grace? The first path leads to hell, and I can't think of anything more hateful than to let someone go to hell for the sake of convenience and "feelings". The best part is, remember in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Paul gives us that list of sinners who won't enter heaven? The best part is verse 11! Such were some of you; but you were[bless and do not curse]washed, but you were[bless and do not curse]sanctified, but you were[bless and do not curse]justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

If that isn't "Good News", I don't know what is!
 
Upvote 0
K

kellhus

Guest
Ok, let's make this simple. Where in Scripture does God change His mind on homosexuality and marriage? Knowing full well I can point to Matthew 19 and we can all see Jesus affirming that marriage is between one man and one woman, where does He change His mind? There is zero argument as to what the Lord says in Matthew 19. It's as plain as speech gets: Matthew 19:1-9 When Jesus had finished these words, He departed from Galilee and came into the region of Judea beyond the Jordan;[bless and do not curse]and[bless and do not curse]large crowds followed Him, and[bless and do not curse]He healed them there. Some[bless and do not curse]Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, “Is it lawful[bless and do not curse]for a man[bless and do not curse]to[bless and do not curse]divorce his wife for any reason at all?”[bless and do not curse]And He answered and said,[bless and do not curse]“Have you not read that He who created[bless and do not curse]themfrom the beginning[bless and do not curse]made them male and female,[bless and do not curse]and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and[bless and do not curse]the two shall become one flesh’?[bless and do not curse]So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to[bless and do not curse]give her a certificate of divorce and send[bless and do not curse]her[bless and do not curse]away?”[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]He said to them,[bless and do not curse]“Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to[bless and do not curse]divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.[bless and do not curse]And I say to you,[bless and do not curse]whoever[bless and do not curse]divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman[bless and do not curse]commits adultery.” So as we can see, Jesus quotes the old testament (Genesis) and gives us the interpretation. (Bolded portion) We have the family as God intended. (Father, Mother, children) and the institution of marriage as God intended. (A man shall leave his parents....the two shall become one flesh...). There is no leeway here. That is God's intended structure. To go any other way is to claim that either God was wrong, or that man no longer needs this part of God's word. Which is more loving, to allow people to remain ignorant of their sin for fear of hurting their feelings, or to explain to them that they (we all) are sinners in need of God's grace? The first path leads to hell, and I can't think of anything more hateful than to let someone go to hell for the sake of convenience and "feelings". The best part is, remember in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Paul gives us that list of sinners who won't enter heaven? The best part is verse 11! Such were some of you; but you were[bless and do not curse]washed, but you were[bless and do not curse]sanctified, but you were[bless and do not curse]justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. If that isn't "Good News", I don't know what is!
where in scripture does it tell you to enforce your religious views on the rest of society? Frankly, I don't see the difference between what you want to do and Islamic Sharia law. Both are instances of people demanding the law of a society enforce their religious views on everyone else.
 
Upvote 0
H

hankroberts

Guest
where in scripture does it tell you to enforce your religious views on the rest of society? Frankly, I don't see the difference between what you want to do and Islamic Sharia law. Both are instances of people demanding the law of a society enforce their religious views on everyone else.

Do you not understand that all laws exist to promote some ideological view; and most exist to promote some specifically religious view? The purpose of law is to promote Good, or to restrain Evil. That concept in itself presumes that Good and Evil exist.

Every law promotes some ideological view: criminal law, contract law, traffic law, civil codes: all of them are grounded in a particular religious and moral view.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums