Are the rapture and the second coming the same event? (2)

The purpose of the material is not to provide a perfect chrono-mechanical map of a bunch of events. It is simply a montage of symbols and scenes that Christ is victorious and will judge the world in righteousness. Don't drown in micro issues.

You and your neighbors will be much further ahead if all you knew was Acts 17's presentation. The resurrection of Christ in the Gospel event proves that God will judge the world through Christ. Get that message out there and quit all this incessant, unresolveable puzzle work.

Riberra said:

You may imagine that the rapture is pre-tib.
What will you do if there is no pre-tribulation rapture?

There will be an even greater earthquake when the 7 th Vial will be poured out right after that Jesus said Behold i come as a thief in Rev 16.

There is no mention of the dead in Christ rising pre-trib in 1 Thessalonians 5...

1 Thessalonians 5 (KJV)

5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Thessalonians+5&version=KJV

Are you qualifying each major Earthquakes of 8 + at the Richter scale as being the Wrath of God?Or that they are caused by the dead in Christ rising?
There is no mention of a pre-tribulation rapture in 1 Thessalonians 5

You will have to meditate about what For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ really means.

It is very doubtful that ... "but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" mean being taken out of the Earth ...there is no precedent about such a thing.And do not try to say that Enoch was taken out of the Earth to Heaven by God to protect him from the Flood.The Bible genealogy tell us that Enoch was taken by God to Heaven about 650 years BEFORE the Flood.

See Genesis Chapter 5.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+5&version=KJV

Click to expand...

Riberra, do you even know what "CONTEXT" means?

This passage in Paul's 1 thes. letter we are concerning ourselves with here, begins with verse 13:

4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.

And goes all the way to:

5:11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

All these verses are the CONTEXT of the great event of the catching up of the Body of Christ from the earth.

There is yet another verse that will help us understand Paul's "sudden destruction."

Matthew 27:51... The earth quaked, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.

This is a resurrection of people dead for a very long time. I am convinced these were the "elders" of the Old Testament saints and the very ones John saw in the throne room of heaven about 60 years after this. i am further convinced that when a resurrection of people long dead takes place, that resurrection will cause an earthquake.

Yes, of course there is a worse earthquake at the 7th vial. That is when the resurrection will take place of the Old Testament saints. Remember, many of those died BEFORE THE GREAT FLOOD OF NOAH. The earth went through cataclysmic changes during that flood. Some of those bodies could have ended up miles deep, and hundreds of miles from the burial place. The atoms that once made up their bodies (or quarks) could be separated by miles of rock. When God raises the Old Testament saints, that resurrection will cause a MASSIVE (think world's worst) earthquake. But we are not talking about the Old Testament saints, we are talking about the resurrection of the Body of Christ on earth.

"There is no mention of a pre-tribulation rapture in 1 Thessalonians 5"

Of course there is, and millions see it. Your preconceptions have blinded you to it.

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ"

What is Paul's THEME in this passage? Of course it is the catching up of the Body of Christ on earth. So when Paul gives us an either/or scenario here, what is he talking about? THE RAPTURE. That is his theme. All people on earth will get to partake of either the catching up or the wrath. What is the wrath in this case? Of course it is the "sudden destruction." And the "salvation" is the rapture, being "saved" from the sudden destruction.

I could say it this way then: all people on earth will get one of two things: caught up, or suffer the "sudden destruction."

Think about it: the dead in Christ rise FIRST, and that resurrection causes the earth to begin shaking. Microseconds after the dead in Christ rise, those ALIVE and in Christ rise, so they too rise before they are caught in this earthquake "sudden destruction." It will be a mighty earthquake, felt around the world, because the dead in Christ have died around the world. All those left behind will suffer the "sudden destruction" for it will be everywhere.

Everything God does does not have to have a precedent. But in this case, when the elders rose at Jesus death/resurrection, and there was an earthquake, that sets a precedent: when God raises those long dead, that resurrection will cause an earthquake.

Does this in itself prove this resurrection and catching up will come pretrib? When aligned with other scriptures, YES. Paul tells us this event comes BEFORE the Day of the Lord. Not the first event of the Day but BEFORE the day. Paul aligns the "sudden destruction" with the start of God's wrath which is the start of the Day of the Lord. In fact, Paul tells us that the rapture will TRIGGER the "sudden destruction" wrath of God, and day of the Lord.

Therefore, this passage of scripture makes your post-trib theory false, plain and simple.

Matthew Twentyfour said:

and it describes all the resurrections of the righteous; Jesus first as "firstfruits," then the church, then the 144,000, then the Old Testament saints and those who have died under the terror of the Beast.

You might not have said the 144,000 died but you did say they will be resurrected following the church. That does imply they died from your interpretation.

However, they are sealed and protected till Christ returns to earth. They don't die and don't get resurrected or rapture to heaven. Please read Revelation 14:2 carefully. The word voice is mentioned three times in that verse, nothing about them physically appearing before the throne. It's the voice of the song they sung that went to heaven, not them. It's similar to songs being sung at a church choir, God can hear it from heaven. They sang the song before the Lord at Mount Zion that can be heard from heaven right after Christ rescues them and revealed Himself as their long awaited Messiah.

Revelation 12:14 also tell us they will be on earth till Christ returns as they will be protected and nourish on earth for a time and times and half a time from the serpent.

Click to expand...

Ah! I get your point. I should have said they get raptured or caught up. Sorry, but that entire passage tells us they are in heaven, not on earth.

"they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders."

"except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth."

If they have been "redeemed from the earth" that means they are no longer ON the earth.

I am convinced they are at this time in heaven as "firstfruits." They have been "harvested."

Rev. 12:14 is not speaking about the 144,000 but rather those who fled after seeing the abomination.

BABerean2 said:

Those taught a doctrine while growing up are sometimes those best suited to speak the truth, especially when your father was the pastor who taught it, and now you are a pastor.

Click to expand...

The only real way to understand Revelation is to wait on the Holy Spirit and allow Him to teach us. After all, He is the Author, and knows everything there is to know about it.

Sadly, most people don't know HOW to wait on the Lord or how to activate the Holy Spirit as their teacher. I had been born again for perhaps 30 years before I heard God speak as a teacher to teach me. I had been filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4) for at least 10 years. Both of these are keys to activating the Holy Spirit as the teacher - but they are not enough, for MANY Spirit filled believes have never heard the voice of God - ever - in their lives. I stumbled upon a key. Yet, I am convinced it was not me, but the Holy Spirit.

I did not understand a verse of scripture, so began to bug God about it. I don't think I missed one day in 6 months of questioning God about this verse. I was also spending time praying in the Holy Spirit. Those two keys opened the door so to speak for God to teach me. Somewhere along in the 6th month, I began to question God, and SUDDENLY He spoke and answered my questions.

Since that time, and since I learned HOW to active the Holy Spirit as MY teacher, I have heard His voice many times.

Next, when I began studying Revelation, I determined to IGNORE everything I had ever heard, and come before God with a blank slate. If I was to know anything, it would be what HE taught me. I did not know where we are now in the book, so I waited for Him to find out. I did not know if the seals were a part of the 70th week - so I wanted on Him to tell me. I CERTAINLY did not know where the rapture would be in Revelation, so I waited on Him to tell me. In other words, I did not use human reasoning.

He started teaching me by asking me to find the exact midpoint of the Week "clearly marked." Then to find the entire 70th week "clearly marked."

I did not get to where I am by listening to teachers. It is a good thing, for now I disagree with most of them.

Those who claim to speak for the Holy Spirit are to be held to a very high standard. In the Old Testament the standard was that they are NEVER wrong. Those who did not meet the standard were to be stoned.

One of the main warnings we were given by Christ and the Apostles was, to let no man deceive us.

God now speaks to us through what is plainly written in His Word.

The truth is repeated over and over throughout scripture.
Any doctrine built on taking a few verses here and there should always be viewed with suspicion.
A doctrine that requires any private interpretation of scripture, is a corruption of God's Word.

Sola Scriptura has become Solo Scriptura in the modern world, and many Christians do not notice.

Those who claim to speak for the Spirit should beware of the warnings in scripture.

If someone claims to get their information in a way not available to all believers, we should all remember the warnings from Christ and the Apostles.

.

BABerean2 said:

Those who claim to speak for the Holy Spirit are to be held to a very high standard. In the Old Testament the standard was that they are NEVER wrong. Those who did not meet the standard were to be stoned.

One of the main warnings we were given by Christ and the Apostles was, to let no man deceive us.

God now speaks to us through what is plainly written in His Word.

The truth is repeated over and over throughout scripture.
Any doctrine built on taking a few verses here and there should always be viewed with suspicion.
A doctrine that requires any private interpretation of scripture, is a corruption of God's Word.

Sola Scriptura has become Solo Scriptura in the modern world, and many Christians do not notice.

Those who claim to speak for the Spirit should beware of the warnings in scripture.

If someone claims to get their information in a way not available to all believers, we should all remember the warnings from Christ and the Apostles.

.

Click to expand...

Now, turn that on itself - seek out its possible holes. Challenge your own conclusions, don't just arrive at them and believe them sound because you believe they are.

I agree, for example, that He speaks to us through His Word.

But, as you know, though your wife might speak to you through her words to you, and vise versa, that alone is no guarantee that her actual intent is the same as the one you have interpreted.

It takes time sorting out just a means to that much out. And one aid in that is that she is right there, either happy with your having read her actual intent, or not, for your having only read your ideas "about" into her actual intent.

This is exactly why people "search out a forum on" this, that, the other "see what others have perhaps understood..."

For the idea that "the Spirit led me to" this, that, the other is actually an assertion arrived at unawares, that the Spirit for some odd reason wants people on different pages!

While, actually pausing to examine one's own conclusion that :the Spirit is leading me..." then forces one to grapple with the Scripture itself, rather than with others, about this kind of issue.

A friend of mine who strongly asserts that the Spirit leads him, is often off
in his quoting of a passage, if not his citing where it is found only to find his recollection of where it is found in Scripture was off.

He never pauses to examine any of that, he simply goes on asserting, "well, the Spirit leads me."

He refuses to examine the passage's - he - asserts teach this "leading," as if that in itself is not a contradiction.

When I assert, 'Yes," He promised - them - that "when the Spirit is come, He will lead you unto all truth," He also related the whys and the wherefores of said leading. While later sections depict their gradual inability to know the truth by that means anymore, and so on.

Thus, at the end of his life, Peter relates to his readers how that, despite Peter's and the eleven having been eye-witnesses etc., they had a more sure Word of prophecy wherein Peter's readers would do well to allow themselves to be guided by. As the Lord had promised The Word endureth forever.

I know "it just feels right." I too know. I've been there, dine that, etc.

I know now from challenging my feeling based conclusions through said more sure Word that that was just me - my old, "let me see; now where did I put my keys?" kind of a moment, re-interpreted by me within the context of "God" as "His leading."

Scripture relates that that is exactly what the Gentiles do, is how they end up at their ideas of idols that, in reality, do not speak, etc. That Gentiles arrived at that due to the vanity, emptiness, or ignorance that is in their mind as to what is actually what.

But yeah, BAB2, I would suggest that you also challenge your own assertion also as to what said "truth" being "repeated throughout over and over throughout Scripture" might actually be.

chiamoni said:

This thread was split automatically after 1000 replies and this thread has been automatically created.
The old thread automatically closed is here: "Are the rapture and the second coming the same event?"

Click to expand...

Yes the are the same event.

"The dead in Christ shall rise FIRST" 1Thess 4.

the saints are raised at "The is the FIRST resurrection" Rev 20:4. and it starts the 1000 years.

"Immediately AFTER the tribulation... He will send forth his angels to gather his elect" Matt 24.

"regarding our gathering together to Him...That day will NOT except the apostacy/falling-away come first" 2Thess 2.

The bible 2nd coming and rapture are the same event and are post-trib... pre-mill.

in Christ,

Bob

iamlamad said:

The only real way to understand Revelation is to wait on the Holy Spirit and allow Him to teach us. After all, He is the Author, and knows everything there is to know about it.

Sadly, most people don't know HOW to wait on the Lord or how to activate the Holy Spirit as their teacher. I had been born again for perhaps 30 years before I heard God speak as a teacher to teach me. I had been filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4) for at least 10 years. Both of these are keys to activating the Holy Spirit as the teacher - but they are not enough, for MANY Spirit filled believes have never heard the voice of God - ever - in their lives. I stumbled upon a key. Yet, I am convinced it was not me, but the Holy Spirit.

I did not understand a verse of scripture, so began to bug God about it. I don't think I missed one day in 6 months of questioning God about this verse. I was also spending time praying in the Holy Spirit. Those two keys opened the door so to speak for God to teach me. Somewhere along in the 6th month, I began to question God, and SUDDENLY He spoke and answered my questions.

Since that time, and since I learned HOW to active the Holy Spirit as MY teacher, I have heard His voice many times.

Next, when I began studying Revelation, I determined to IGNORE everything I had ever heard, and come before God with a blank slate. If I was to know anything, it would be what HE taught me. I did not know where we are now in the book, so I waited for Him to find out. I did not know if the seals were a part of the 70th week - so I wanted on Him to tell me. I CERTAINLY did not know where the rapture would be in Revelation, so I waited on Him to tell me. In other words, I did not use human reasoning.

He started teaching me by asking me to find the exact midpoint of the Week "clearly marked." Then to find the entire 70th week "clearly marked."

I did not get to where I am by listening to teachers. It is a good thing, for now I disagree with most of them.

Click to expand...

I was raised in exactly that til about the age of seventeen, when I went out into the world as lost as I was born into that.

And I was just as observant then as I am now. I can still recall thinking at about the age of eight "if God is the one speaking through that guest missionary up there, why does He need someone that speaks both that speaker's country's language and our own to translate for Him?"

Rational and reason will have an answer. It always does. As do the Greeks in 1 Corinthians 2 that Paul so looks down on.

As did the Reformers only to unfortunately adopt as their own that same reasoning of the Greeks - its mysticism becoming their scholasticism - and with that, what had for a time been a real move forward in the recovery of what had been lost once more returned to the Dark Ages of man's reasoning "about" until Darby...

Only for his followers to end up in that same reasoning "about" through a "systematic" theology, where the theology far to often determines what the passages are asserting, which is where much of Dispensationalism also remains, thus its fair share of celebrity "Prophecy" preachers.

And I say that as one who greatly relies on the Dispensational principle as one of many other principles of Bible study - but as one of many principles - not as THEE principle alone.

I'd challenge you to examine what you are taking to be "the Spirit's leading."

All it is, is your own spirit. You will just have to be a Berean about this Iamlamd.

Respectfully,

deleled

iamlamad said:

Riberra, do you even know what "CONTEXT" means?

Click to expand...

The whole context of the epistle to the Thessalonians is Paul teaching to the early Christians the brand new "concept" of the resurrection and a catching up and gathering of those still alive and remain in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air upon Jesus Second Coming.I don't know why you are unable to realize that this will occurs in only one event near the end of the tribulation just before the moment Jesus will come on his white horse.

Just to give you an example about how far your interpretation is from the Biblical truth here the commentary made by Matthew Henry.
1 Thessalonians 5

Chapter 5
http://www.biblestudytools.com/1-thessalonians/5.htmlThe apostle, having spoken in the end of the foregoing chapter concerning the resurrection, and the second coming of Christ, proceeds to speak concerning the uselessness of enquiring after the particular time of Christ’s coming, which would be sudden and terrible to the wicked, but comfortable to the saints (v. 1-5). He then exhorts them to the duties of watchfulness, sobriety, and the exercise of faith, love, and hope, as being suitable to their state (v. 6-10). In the next words he exhorts them to several duties they owed to others, or to one another (v. 11-15), afterwards to several other Christian duties of great importance (v. 16-22), and then concludes this epistle (v. 23-28).

More:
1 Thessalonians 5 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)

iamlamad said:

Ah! I get your point. I should have said they get raptured or caught up. Sorry, but that entire passage tells us they are in heaven, not on earth.

Click to expand...

Sorry but you have problems with understanding the things you read and write. This isn't the first error I've seen you make. You should take a look at the things you wrote in other threads also. You contradict yourself from day to day. At least here you're man enough to acknowledge this mistake after having to drill this into your head till you realize.

iamlamad said:

"they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders."

"except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth."

If they have been "redeemed from the earth" that means they are no longer ON the earth.

Click to expand...

No, being redeemed from the earth does not mean they are raptured. Look up the word redeem, it has more then one meaning. I can't provide the link but this is also what it means. It means their sins has been paid for.


Doesn't other scriptures about them being on earth till the end at least cause red flags in your mind for thinking they would be rapture?

Study the hundreds of scriptures about the 144,000 which are the combined houses of Israel and Judah in the OT. They are the descendants of Jacob. It's very clear and indisputable, they stay on earth the entire tribulation. Read the prophecy of Jacob's Trouble.

iamlamad said:

Rev. 12:14 is not speaking about the 144,000 but rather those who fled after seeing the abomination.

Click to expand...

Again you're wrong here too. I can't provide links but guess where Israel is currently building 1000's of new settlement? Guess who will be living in them in the near future? Guess why this area will be bombarded during the middle of the tribulation? It's all fulfilling prophecy just as the bible said.

[B said:

MathewTwentyfour][/B]

Originally Posted by iamlamad

Ah! I get your point. I should have said they get raptured or caught up. Sorry, but that entire passage tells us they are in heaven, not on earth.
​

Sorry but you have problems with understanding the things you read and write. This isn't the first error I've seen you make. You should take a look at the things you wrote in other threads also. You contradict yourself from day to day. At least here you're man enough to acknowledge this mistake after having to drill this into your head till you realize.

Originally Posted by iamlamad

"they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders."

"except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth."

If they have been "redeemed from the earth" that means they are no longer ON the earth.
​

No, being redeemed from the earth does not mean they are raptured. Look up the word redeem, it has more then one meaning. I can't provide the link but this is also what it means. It means their sins has been paid for.

re·deem
rəˈdēm/
verb
1. compensate for the faults or bad aspects of (something).​

Doesn't other scriptures about them being on earth till the end at least cause red flags in your mind for thinking they would be rapture?

Study the hundreds of scriptures about the 144,000 which are the combined houses of Israel and Judah in the OT. They are the descendants of Jacob. It's very clear and indisputable, they stay on earth the entire tribulation. Read the prophecy of Jacob's Trouble.


Originally Posted by iamlamad

Rev. 12:14 is not speaking about the 144,000 but rather those who fled after seeing the abomination.
​

Again you're wrong here too. I can't provide links but guess where Israel is currently building 1000's of new settlement? Guess who will be living in them in the near future? Guess why this area will be bombarded during the middle of the tribulation? It's all fulfilling prophecy just as the bible said.​

​

Click to expand...

Please show us all where I do this. I would really like to know.

Did you notice these verses?


Psalm 106:10
And he saved them from the hand of him that hated them, and redeemed them from the hand of the enemy.

Psalm 107:2
Let the redeemed of the Lord say so, whom he hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy;

Psalm 136:24
And hath redeemed us from our enemies: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Redeemed from tells us that God took them OUT of the hand of the enemy.

Deuteronomy 7:8
But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Here God took them OUT of slavery.

1 Chronicles 17:21
And what one nation in the earth is like thy people Israel, whom God went to redeem to be his own people, to make thee a name of greatness and terribleness, by driving out nations from before thy people whom thou hast redeemed out of Egypt?

Here God took them OUT of Egypt.

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Here God removed us from under the curse of the Law. We get the blessing, not the curse, because God became a curse for us.

So when John wrote that they were redeemed from the earth, the meaning is clear, they are no longer ON the earth. Then add to that the fact they they are around the throne:

"they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders"

Now, WHERE is the throne? We both know it is in Heaven. WHERE are the four beasts? In the throne room of heaven. WHERE are the elders? In the throne room also. Then John tells us, "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth."

WHERE is the Lamb of God at this time? He ascended to heaven in chapter 5 and has not left yet, so He is IN HEAVEN. We have a dozen verses that tell us Jesus went to be at the right hand of the Father. All this is CONCLUSIVE proof that the 144,000 are placed in heaven by what John wrote.

Of course, with your preconceived glasses, you can imagine anything.

Doesn't other scriptures about them being on earth till the end at least cause red flags in your mind for thinking they would be rapture?

Wow! You are off the deep end here! John mentions the 144,000 TWICE, first in chapter 7 then here. And you think I am the one lost?

Study the hundreds of scriptures about the 144,000 which are the combined houses of Israel and Judah in the OT. They are the descendants of Jacob. It's very clear and indisputable, they stay on earth the entire tribulation. Read the prophecy of Jacob's Trouble.

Did you not understand that the 144,000 are only a SMALL part of Israel? Did you not read about the firstfruits of the harvest and what that means? Firstfruits are only a TINY portion of the harvest, and John tells us these 144,000 are FIRSTFRUITS. And you think I am lost?

<b>

Rev. 12:14 is not speaking about the 144,000 but rather those who fled after seeing the abomination.
​

Again you're wrong here too.

</b>Wow! And you think I am the one wrong?

WHO is the "woman?" She is to represent ISRAEL, the nation from where the Messiah came. Did you just forget what Jesus said?

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


WHERE did those come from who will flee? They will be those living in JUDEA. NOt America, NOT Russia, NOT China, nor anywhere else in the world. Judea was all the land surrounding Jerusalem for some distance. They are the ones who will flee. But then, ONLY those that are familiar with what Jesus said. Perhaps then it will be mostly Christians living in Judea. Some Jews read the New Testament, so perhaps some will flee who are NOT Christians. And you think I am the one who is wrong?

Riberra said:

Originally Posted by iamlamad

Riberra, do you even know what "CONTEXT" means?
​

The whole context of the epistle to the Thessalonians is Paul teaching to the early Christians the brand new "concept" of the resurrection and a catching up and gathering of those still alive and remain in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air upon Jesus Second Coming.I don't know why you are unable to realize that this will occurs in only one event near the end of the tribulation just before the moment Jesus will come on his white horse.

Just to give you an example about how far your interpretation is from the Biblical truth here the commentary made by Matthew Henry.
1 Thessalonians 5

Chapter 5
The apostle, having spoken in the end of the foregoing chapter concerning the resurrection, and the second coming of Christ, proceeds to speak concerning the uselessness of enquiring after the particular time of Christ&#8217;s coming, which would be sudden and terrible to the wicked, but comfortable to the saints (v. 1-5). He then exhorts them to the duties of watchfulness, sobriety, and the exercise of faith, love, and hope, as being suitable to their state (v. 6-10). In the next words he exhorts them to several duties they owed to others, or to one another (v. 11-15), afterwards to several other Christian duties of great importance (v. 16-22), and then concludes this epistle (v. 23-28).

More:
1 Thessalonians 5 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)

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I don't much agree with Matthew Henry. Notice his take on Rev 12:1-5

12:1-6 The church, under the emblem of a woman, the mother of believers, was seen by the apostle in vision, in heaven. She was clothed with the sun, justified, sanctified, and shining by union with Christ, the Sun of Righteousness. The moon was under her feet; she was superior to the reflected and feebler light of the revelation made by Moses. Having on her head a crown of twelve stars; the doctrine of the gospel, preached by the twelve apostles, is a crown of glory to all true believers. As in pain to bring forth a holy family; desirous that the conviction of sinners might end in their conversion. A dragon is a known emblem of Satan, and his chief agents, or those who govern for him on earth, at that time the pagan empire of Rome, the city built upon seven hills. As having ten horns, divided into ten kingdoms. Having seven crowns, representing seven forms of government. As drawing with his tail a third part of the stars in heaven, and casting them down to the earth; persecuting and seducing the ministers and teachers. As watchful to crush the Christian religion; but in spite of the opposition of enemies, the church brought forth a manly issue of true and faithful professors, in whom Christ was truly formed anew; even the mystery of Christ, that Son of God who should rule the nations, and in whose right his members partake the same glory. This blessed offspring was protected of God.

Danoh said:

I was raised in exactly that til about the age of seventeen, when I went out into the world as lost as I was born into that.

And I was just as observant then as I am now. I can still recall thinking at about the age of eight "if God is the one speaking through that guest missionary up there, why does He need someone that speaks both that speaker's country's language and our own to translate for Him?"

Rational and reason will have an answer. It always does. As do the Greeks in 1 Corinthians 2 that Paul so looks down on.

As did the Reformers only to unfortunately adopt as their own that same reasoning of the Greeks - its mysticism becoming their scholasticism - and with that, what had for a time been a real move forward in the recovery of what had been lost once more returned to the Dark Ages of man's reasoning "about" until Darby...

Only for his followers to end up in that same reasoning "about" through a "systematic" theology, where the theology far to often determines what the passages are asserting, which is where much of Dispensationalism also remains, thus its fair share of celebrity "Prophecy" preachers.

And I say that as one who greatly relies on the Dispensational principle as one of many other principles of Bible study - but as one of many principles - not as THEE principle alone.

I'd challenge you to examine what you are taking to be "the Spirit's leading."

All it is, is your own spirit. You will just have to be a Berean about this Iamlamd.

Respectfully,

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Human reasoning seldom finds the truth of God's word. It is very simple: the missionary spoke a language different than the people present. If he spoke in his own language, no one would understand. Certainly he could be speaking under the anointing of the Holy Spirit and still speak in his own language. But for the hearers to understand, SOMEONE who understood the missionary and could speak the local language had to interpret. I frequently speak to Burmese and someone always interprets for them, for they are recently arrived in the US and don't yet understand much English.

Why do you imagine that Paul looked down on them?

BABerean2 said:

Those who claim to speak for the Holy Spirit are to be held to a very high standard. In the Old Testament the standard was that they are NEVER wrong. Those who did not meet the standard were to be stoned.

One of the main warnings we were given by Christ and the Apostles was, to let no man deceive us.

God now speaks to us through what is plainly written in His Word.

The truth is repeated over and over throughout scripture.
Any doctrine built on taking a few verses here and there should always be viewed with suspicion.
A doctrine that requires any private interpretation of scripture, is a corruption of God's Word.

Sola Scriptura has become Solo Scriptura in the modern world, and many Christians do not notice.

Those who claim to speak for the Spirit should beware of the warnings in scripture.

If someone claims to get their information in a way not available to all believers, we should all remember the warnings from Christ and the Apostles.

Click to expand...

I guess, since your post follows mine, that your post was directed at me and what I wrote.

What do you mean, "not available to all believers?" Did you never read:

John 14:
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things....

John 16:
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Make no mistake, the Holy Spirit was sent as our teacher. He is available to teach ANYONE that is born again. John wrote that He would SPEAK.....but very few beleivers have ever heard his Voice and His words. Could it be they just don't know HOW?

Did you not read how Paul called his rapture doctrine a MYSTERY? That was because it was the first time it was revealed.

Finally, do you realize that what Paul teaches us through his letters he himself acquired that knowledge through the Holy Spirit REVEALING it to Him?

iamlamad said:

I don't much agree with Matthew Henry. Notice his take on Rev 12:1-5

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Just for comparison what is your interpretation about Rev 12:1-5 ?

Revelation 12:1-5
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2012&version=KJV

iamlamad said:

Did you not read how Paul called his rapture doctrine a MYSTERY? That was because it was the first time it was revealed.

Finally, do you realize that what Paul teaches us through his letters he himself acquired that knowledge through the Holy Spirit REVEALING it to Him?

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Is it the mystery that Paul have revealed >that you are sure is about some kind of "pre-tribulation"rapture ?
I have added the original Bible context preceding and following 1 Corinthians 15:51-52

1 Corinthians 15:35-58

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

For the whole chapter see
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+15&version=KJV

Originally Posted by BABerean2
Those who claim to speak for the Holy Spirit are to be held to a very high standard. In the Old Testament the standard was that they are NEVER wrong. Those who did not meet the standard were to be stoned.

One of the main warnings we were given by Christ and the Apostles was, to let no man deceive us.

God now speaks to us through what is plainly written in His Word.

The truth is repeated over and over throughout scripture.
Any doctrine built on taking a few verses here and there should always be viewed with suspicion.
A doctrine that requires any private interpretation of scripture, is a corruption of God's Word.

Sola Scriptura has become Solo Scriptura in the modern world, and many Christians do not notice.

Those who claim to speak for the Spirit should beware of the warnings in scripture.

If someone claims to get their information in a way not available to all believers, we should all remember the warnings from Christ and the Apostles.

iamlamad said:

I guess, since your post follows mine, that your post was directed at me and what I wrote.

What do you mean, "not available to all believers?" Did you never read:

John 14:
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things....

John 16:
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Make no mistake, the Holy Spirit was sent as our teacher. He is available to teach ANYONE that is born again. John wrote that He would SPEAK.....but very few beleivers have ever heard his Voice and His words. Could it be they just don't know HOW?

Did you not read how Paul called his rapture doctrine a MYSTERY? That was because it was the first time it was revealed.

Finally, do you realize that what Paul teaches us through his letters he himself acquired that knowledge through the Holy Spirit REVEALING it to Him?

Click to expand...

Those passages you quoted from John are the exact same passages my often off by a country mile friend also claims.

I asked him today what the context of Acts 3:19 is and he replied "that we need to repent so that our sins can be blotted out when the Lord returns."

In short he not only gave me his supposedly "Spirit led" interpretation of a passage not even directed at the Body of Christ, but confused his answer with "what the context is."

He's even worse than BAB2 in the following refusal - my friend won't even look at passages like this one in Colossians 2:

14. Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

But sure as sure can be he is that "the Spirit leads me unto all truth."

You're just as sure as he is. I hate to say this, but that it make its point, you're just as sure about your assertion as a Jihadist is that 72 virgins await his suicide bombings.

You are doing what my friend does - reading his off-base conclusions [he refuses to see how off he so often is] into those passages in John.

The Apostles were guided unto said truth and then wrote it down, which is how we got the books now known as the NT.

Paul relates as much in 1 Cor. 2, as does Peter in 2 Peter 1.

You need to study this out, not go by your senses.

Do so and you will find that what you are actually asserting is that God is writing more Bible through you...

iamlamad said:

Matthew Twentyfour said:

You contradict yourself from day to day.

Click to expand...

Please show us all where I do this. I would really like to know.

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Yesterday you said those in Judea will NOT flee during the Abomination of Desolation.

iamlamad said:

The 144,000 will be caught up near the midpoint. They will not be on the earth. Even though Jesus told those in Judea to flee when they see the abomination, MANY will not flee. They KNOW their Messiah will return to Jerusalem, so many stay in the city.

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Today in two posts, you said they will flee.

It's one thing to debate with others to correct their errors, but it's another to persistently argue with your own errors refusing to acknowledge your own mistakes while making outlandish claims that your conclusions are all based on insights from the Holy Spirit.

Other than your self contradictions, you have a lot of self-pride, it's not a good thing with God because that's the number one sin He hates most. You just have to be right even when you're wrong. The arguments you make does not come close to scripture, but you insist it's correct because you claim it's from the Holy Spirit.

Let me ask you this. If what you hear is from the Holy Spirit and not the other guy, shouldn't it line-up with what the bible say?

iamlamad said:

Sorry, but not me that is lost here. It will be THOSE IN JUDEA that flee. Go back and read Mat. 24 again.

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iamlamad said:

The woman is still fleeing and being protected

The woman is still fleeing and being protected

The woman is still fleeing and being protected

The woman is still fleeing and being protected

The woman is still fleeing and being protected

The woman is still fleeing and being protected

The woman is still fleeing and being protected

The woman is still fleeing and being protected

The woman is still fleeing and being protected

The woman is still fleeing and being protected

the two witnesses and ALL the Old Testament saints rise.

The woman is still fleeing and being protected

The woman is still fleeing and being protected

The woman's 3 1/2 years of protection have ended.

THIS is John's chronology. Believe it!

Click to expand...

iamlamad said:

[/INDENT] "[/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT]
Did you notice these verses?

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Redeemed from tells us that God took them OUT of the hand of the enemy.

[/COLOR]
But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Here God took them OUT of slavery.


And what one nation in the earth is like thy people Israel, whom God went to redeem to be his own people, to make thee a name of greatness and terribleness, by driving out nations from before thy people whom thou hast redeemed out of Egypt?

Here God took them OUT of Egypt.

Here God removed us from under the curse of the Law. We get the blessing, not the curse, because God became a curse for us.

So when John wrote that they were redeemed from the earth, the meaning is clear, they are no longer ON the earth. Then add to that the fact they they are around the throne:

"they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders"

Now, WHERE is the throne? We both know it is in Heaven. WHERE are the four beasts? In the throne room of heaven. WHERE are the elders? In the throne room also. Then John tells us, "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth."

WHERE is the Lamb of God at this time? He ascended to heaven in chapter 5 and has not left yet, so He is IN HEAVEN. We have a dozen verses that tell us Jesus went to be at the right hand of the Father. All this is CONCLUSIVE proof that the 144,000 are placed in heaven by what John wrote.

Of course, with your preconceived glasses, you can imagine anything.

Doesn't other scriptures about them being on earth till the end at least cause red flags in your mind for thinking they would be rapture?

Wow! You are off the deep end here! John mentions the 144,000 TWICE, first in chapter 7 then here. And you think I am the one lost?

Study the hundreds of scriptures about the 144,000 which are the combined houses of Israel and Judah in the OT. They are the descendants of Jacob. It's very clear and indisputable, they stay on earth the entire tribulation. Read the prophecy of Jacob's Trouble.

Did you not understand that the 144,000 are only a SMALL part of Israel? Did you not read about the firstfruits of the harvest and what that means? Firstfruits are only a TINY portion of the harvest, and John tells us these 144,000 are FIRSTFRUITS. And you think I am lost?

<b>

Rev. 12:14 is not speaking about the 144,000 but rather those who fled after seeing the abomination.
​

Again you're wrong here too.

</b>Wow! And you think I am the one wrong?

WHO is the "woman?" She is to represent ISRAEL, the nation from where the Messiah came. Did you just forget what Jesus said?

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


WHERE did those come from who will flee? They will be those living in JUDEA. NOt America, NOT Russia, NOT China, nor anywhere else in the world. Judea was all the land surrounding Jerusalem for some distance. They are the ones who will flee. But then, ONLY those that are familiar with what Jesus said. Perhaps then it will be mostly Christians living in Judea. Some Jews read the New Testament, so perhaps some will flee who are NOT Christians. And you think I am the one who is wrong?

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Yes I did and as you can see, the word redeem does not mean rapture. Do you see a rapture in any of those passages you wrote? Did you notice I said the word redeem has more than one meaning?

Did you also look carefully at the next verse, Rev 14:4? It also said they are redeem from among men. Does that sound like a rapture? The bible is telling us their sins has been paid for by God.


Now read this in another translation. They do not get rapture. Again the word redeem has more than one meaning and in this case, God paid for their sin. The wages of sin is death no longer applies here because they are (bought, paid, ransom, compensated, etc) not rapture.


re·deem
r&#601;&#712;d&#275;m/
verb
1. compensate for the faults or bad aspects of (something).